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[6e] Megadodge

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MercilessMing

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« on: <03-22-21/1709:23> »
Starting to notice in my home game that the combat meta is drifting in a defensive direction, which is a weird experience for me (are we playing Shadowrun?).  Not sure I like it, either.
This happens most often in close combat, because while not everyone who fires a gun will have Athletics, everyone who goes to engage in close combat has the close combat skill.

So, Close Combat often ends up being: Attacker rolls AGI + CC, Defender rolls REA + INT + CC.

The ability to do this is limited by extra actions, so the counter to it is focused attacks.  However, Grunt rules run counter to this idea!  6e encourages you to combine attacks into a Megattack to save time.  I almost never use grunt rules because they weaken the opposition so much.

What do you all think about the more defensive meta in 6e?  Do any of you enforce a +4  limiter to the skill dice you can add?  And, what happy medium could be found between grunt group attacks and defensive actions?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <03-22-21/1722:42> »
Grunt groups are not meant for tactical advantage... they're 100% meta expediency.  If grouping everything into one attack is too much time saving, then don't use it as much, or group up "less inefficiently".  What I mean is instead of having 5 gangers go into one attack, have them go into a 3 and a 2. Or 2 2 1.  Or, if you really, truly have the time, just do 5 attacks.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #2 on: <03-22-21/1808:12> »
IME 6th is just like any other game, the best defense is a good offense.  If the players are spending minor actions on Dodge/Parry, that means they're skipping out on the Minor actions that boost attacks.  Multiple Attacks/Anticipate, Call a Shot, Take Aim, or possibly not trading in 4 Minors for a Major and getting in another attack.....  If the NPCs are sticking around longer the PCs are taking more hits.

I think the longest fight I've been in for 6th ended in the third turn. 

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #3 on: <03-22-21/1820:33> »
I'm not sure that is a bad thing, if I am using grunt rules odds are the enemies are basically goons. And the PC close combat specialist successfully defending against a pack of goons seems fitting.

Lormyr

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« Reply #4 on: <03-23-21/0352:10> »
5e also had a much higher defense pool ceiling than offense ceiling, so this is really no different.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <03-23-21/0618:48> »
In 5th you could often soak the damage from grunts rather than avoiding them. And since attack was failed on a draw, landing attacks for grunts were also not very easy. Playing tactically was perhaps not really a big concern in case you were built as a tank (rolling 30+ dice to soak). On the other hand, characters not built for it would risk getting one shotted by stronger attacks (especially since you could also be denied a defense roll if you were unaware of the attack). Damage values were quite extreme, in both directions.

However, if you are hit in 6th then odds are you will also take some damage. Making sure you are not hit (using tactical advantage to reroll hits for your opponents, spend actions to add willpower or a skill on your avoid pool, etc) is more.... "valuable" than it perhaps was before. Then again, characters that are not built for it will now often not really risk getting one shotted by stronger attacks (and you now always get to take a defense test, even if you are unaware of the attack). Damage values are now more... consistent (if you understand what I mean).

...but for a wired person in 6E you can sometimes also go all in and trade all or most of your minor actions into a second attack (or trade minor actions for Take Aim etc as you explained) = Offence is still a way of defense. After all, if your target is dead then he can not hurt you... ;-)

Finstersang

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« Reply #6 on: <03-23-21/0704:08> »
What do you all think about the more defensive meta in 6e?  Do any of you enforce a +4  limiter to the skill dice you can add?  And, what happy medium could be found between grunt group attacks and defensive actions?

I do think that SR6s combat meta is a bit too much on the defensive side as well. Actually so much that it often makes more sense for Athletik-heavy Streetsams to save up Minor Actions for Dodging instead of offensive options. This is especially true if is in a situations where a second attack isnīt possible. Say you have Wired Reflexes 2, but use one of the additional Minor actions for Moving. With the second attack being out of option, keeping the remaining 3 for defensive Actions is a very strong option if you have sufficient Athletics/Close Combat skills. Even if the GM chooses to not use Grunt attacks, itīs unlikely that more than 3 Dodges/Blocks will be needed. Keep in mind that in 6th Edition, you can choose to use Dodging/Blocking after the attack roll, so you can also safe up Defensive if itīs likely that the Attack fails anyways (which is why I chose to tie this "privilige" to the AR/DR comparison as a houserule, see below).

IMO, the "grunt-group mega-block" isnīt even the big stink here. As Shinobi points out, itīs somewhat fitting if a Close Combat specialist keeps a group of gangers at bay with skillfull blocking. Using Grunt rules isnīt probably the mechanically "smart" choice, but itīs one that results in a more cinematic experience. And the GMīs job is not to be the big meanie who tries to take out PC as quickly as possible. If the players get to confident, a GM can chose to switch to individual attacks to chew down the defensive actions of the players and keep up pressure. 

But thatīs where the problems start: Even if you split the attacks, every character can use the most powerfull of the defensive options for 2-5 (or 6?) times per round. This especially turns Athletics into a combat superskill, since itīs usable against ranged and melee combat. This also means that Athletic Dodging is always the supreme option if Athletics is higher than the Close Combat skill. Once the players get the hang of it, 6th Edition Combat can turn into a happy dodge dance pretty quick.

IMO, this by no means a game-breaking problem (of which the RAW has enough...), but it leaves some room for improvements and tactical depth. These are my current houserules:

  • Each type of Defensive Action may only be used once per Combat turn.
  • If the Attackerīs AR is higher than the defenders DR, the defender has declare the use of Defensive Actions before the attack roll
  • Most notably: Every character can safe up to 2 unused Minor actions after the end of a combat round and transfer them to the next. Once itīs your turn again, you may add these remaining Minor actions to your current Minor actions

The first 2 rules makes defensive Actions a little bit more of tactical gamble, at least for Characters with Intiative enhancements: Do I want to use my "better" Athletic Dodge to avoid this melee attack or do I block it and save the Dodge for the next ranged attack? Do I risk to "waste" a precious Defensive options against a possibly weak melee roll with a high AR? This also means that Hit the Dirt is still a valid "last effort" option even for athletic characters.

But itīs the last point that has proven to be a huge improvement at my tables: First, it makes all ratings of Initiative Enhancements worthwhile in all situations, even if they donīt grant you a second Attack straight away. Second, the option to safe up Minor Actions for an additional Major Actions in the following turn makes Blocking/Dodging an even tougher decision. This also means that keeping up the pressure becomes more important, since even unaugmented goons can go for a second attack every other turn if you donīt force them to waste actions on movement and defenses.
« Last Edit: <03-23-21/1419:20> by Finstersang »