[Teknodragon]

A comment someone made elsewhere here prompts me to ask this question-- is it possible to buy positive qualities with karma in Missions? I'd assumed not, given that in regular play it is all but impossible to do so.

[usefulidiot]

This has come up in the past in some of the games I ran and we ruled that as long as the positive quality could be gained through some manner of role playing and also by paying the "2 karma = 1 bp" conversion, as suggested in SR4A p. 270-271. Martail arts is just one of them that quickly comes to mind that we have allowed before.

[Onion Man]

This has come up in the past in some of the games I ran and we ruled that as long as the positive quality could be gained through some manner of role playing and also by paying the "2 karma = 1 bp" conversion, as suggested in SR4A p. 270-271. Martail arts is just one of them that quickly comes to mind that we have allowed before.

Martial arts is on the 'explicitly not allowed' list for Missions.

[Wasabi]

Out of the dozen or so official Catalyst Demo Team staff I've played under at conventions I've not had a GM say no to the purchase of an SRM-legal positive quality.
(and that's having played every offered mission since season 1.)

They can whenever they like but my experience has been very positive. I do suggest for the sake of cleanest gameplay getting on the cert the exercizes or what-have-you you're doing to condition yourself well enough to earn the new positive quality. That way a GM can see a past GM's record of how dedicated your character is as he works towards that new quality.

[KarmaInferno]

Uh, guys? Buying qualities with Karma is an "if the gamemaster chooses to allow it" option, and has not specifically been allowed in the FAQ, so by strict reading it is NOT allowed in Shadowrun Missions. Regardless of what a convention GM has erroneously permitted at their tables in the past.

Remember that Optional Rules are not allowed, unless specifically noted as such in the FAQ. And if a rule requires GM approval or heavy GM adjudication to work, it's pretty much an Optional Rule, even if it's not specifically labeled as such.

If Bull wants to allow it, it should probably be added to the next FAQ update but as it stands I don't see a way around the "if the gamemaster allows" problem.



-k

[Wasabi]

In the past its been said GM discretion things are 'usually' disallowed but never 'strictly' disallowed. The FAQ doesnt support them being strictly disallowed and its in an allowed book so the FAQ would need to change for that to be 'strictly' disallowed. Pretty much disallowed is a judgment call.

Bull doesn't have to say he allows it because Bull hasn't said he has disallowed it.


Bull, would you please weigh in if it is (il)legal to buy allowed Positive Qualities with karma or if it remains GM discretion?

[Onion Man]

In the past its been said GM discretion things are 'usually' disallowed but never 'strictly' disallowed. The FAQ doesnt support them being strictly disallowed and its in an allowed book so the FAQ would need to change for that to be 'strictly' disallowed. Pretty much disallowed is a judgment call.

Bull doesn't have to say he allows it because Bull hasn't said he has disallowed it.


Bull, would you please weigh in if it is (il)legal to buy allowed Positive Qualities with karma or if it remains GM discretion?

If the GM allows it is a cut and dried case of optional rules.

As per the faq, optional rules are not allowed unless they have been explicitly allowed.

CAN I USE OPTIONAL RULE (FILL IN THE BLANK)?
Unless this FAQ states otherwise, no.

[Wasabi]

There is certainly logic that 'always in effect' is the only non-optional rule. GM discretion can also be 'always in effect but adjudication varies.' Optional Rules are 'always' cases such as caps on armor options. GM discretion are always in effect but at the discretion of the GM. For instance when a medkit runs out of supplies is now a GM discretion item.

You may interpret it how you like for your home game. I'm asking how Bull wants it to work in official SRM games.

Here are several SRM4A references to GM discretion and the effect of not allowing the GM discretion. Many are trivial, some less so.

p147, cannot use Perception without a simple action
p165, fire damage cannot start secondary fires
p168, vehicle test glitches have no 'glitch' effect
p182, can only learn spells from formulas or the exact same tradition - no compatible traditions
p211, magic fingers requires no test for 'simple actions'
p225, no bonus for coordinating in AR
p236, hacking glitches results have no 'glitch' effect
p256, sleeping at all once every 24 hours prevents sleep deprivation
p256, substance abuse doesn't cause addiction
p270, specializations cannot be changed by purchasing a different specialization
p296, critters using innate spell use only willpower for drain
p324, gas and smoke grenades always last 4 turns
p329, walls and obstacles do not block jamming
p337, medkits wont run out of supplies
p342, fingertip compartments may not hold anything

And if they are deemed Optional, no problem, but I don't see your interpretation because the option to ALWAYS treat something one way being banned is a lot different than up to the GM.

That said, all players should assume the GM will give the harshest result of anything listed GM Discretion unless the GM happens to differ. I'm not saying GM discretion is a lever to give players - its merely a variable for the GM that is always allowed in by the book games and thus not Optional. Cousins, but not siblings.

[Crash_00]

This occurs in every living campaign. The problem is whether Optional Rules are defined as anything that is stated to be an Optional Rule or whether they are anything that is logically an Optional Rule.

In most games I would go with the first just due to it being easier to define, but everything could be easily fixed with a simple nod or shake of the head by the missions coordinator.

Here is another case using movement instead. Movement is clearly defined in SR4A (pg.148-149). If we don't allow logical interpretations of movement as well, then I can get attacked by walking or running past an enemy, but I can crawl past without any problems (Two types of movement only involve walking and running). Having the enemy attack would be up to the GM (since it isn't RAW) which would logically be an Optional Rule and thus not allowed in Missions.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

The question is whether or not "GM discretion" = "Optional rule".

SRM4 FAQ, p. 5:

CAN I USE OPTIONAL RULE (FILL IN THE BLANK)?
Unless this FAQ states otherwise, no. To give every Missions player the same game experience and maintain campaign balance, we generally avoid using any rule that is listed as optional.

"Optional rules" are generally called out as such (either "Optional" or "Tweaking the rules"), and not so much as "GM discretion" which (as Wasabi points out) is an integral part of the RPG experience because the RAW can't cover every situation.  (If you find a rulebook that describes every situation perfectly, let me know so I can cite it in my physics dissertation.  )

The "Other Improvement" (SR4A, 270) part of character improvement is not listed as an "Optional Rule".  It just requires some discretion because not every quality can be dealt with in the same way.  It's relatively easy to walk away from many Day Jobs (though there might be consequences like not making rent), but we have plenty of real life evidence that an Addiction is not so easily bought off.  Likewise, a character could go under the laser to buy the Human-Looking quality in many cases, but no amount of surgery will turn a mundane into a Magician.