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What is a defense test?

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« on: <02-18-18/0354:58> »
Pedantry alert.

But for technicality's sake, what is a defense test, categorically?  The general rules seem to recognize only three kinds of tests: Success Tests, Opposed Tests, and Extended Tests (pgs 47-48).  Yet the combat rules repeatedly throw the term "defense tests" in lots of contexts.  Is it just the name for the defender's half of a combat-related Opposed Test, kind of like a damage resistance test might just be called a specific kind of Success Test at (at a threshold of 1)?  Or is steps 2 and 3 of the DADA sequence (pg 173) establishing that attack tests and defense tests are neither Success nor Opposed tests?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

firebug

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« Reply #1 on: <02-18-18/0413:42> »
The dice pool you roll when you're on the receiving end of an action is either a Defense Test, or a Resistance Test, depending on the nature of the attack.  Nine times out of ten, the difference doesn't matter.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <02-18-18/0429:58> »
The dice pool you roll when you're on the receiving end of an action is either a Defense Test, or a Resistance Test, depending on the nature of the attack.  Nine times out of ten, the difference doesn't matter.

agreed about 9 times out of 10 it not mattering, but here's why I'm asking.

I'm GMing a SRM mission soon, after having joined an existing circle that's been playing together for some time.  The players and regular GM are of the opinion that you always get a defense test, even from grenades and area indirect combat spells.  I couldn't convince them otherwise.  Since I was new guy and not wanting to be "that guy" and try to tell the GM how to run his game, I didn't :)

However, I'm anticipating some pushback when it's my turn behind the screen.  What seems to have them convinced, near as I can tell, is a combination of the way DADA is presented and/or the gd stupid line(s) in the rulebook stating a -2 dodge penalty for AoE attacks that is unfortunately repeated throughout the book on relevant charts.  I've pointed out the clarification that should have settled it, but since that clarification never made it into official errata and ironically the SRM says you only play with "official errata" I'm looking at a way to justify why I'm not doing a house rule to say no dodge tests on grenades.

My basis is going to be "grenades and aoe indirect combat spells are success tests, not opposed tests.  There's nothing for you to roll to see if you dodge."  And if they point to DADA, I'm planning on saying that "obviously" only applies to Opposed tests.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

firebug

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« Reply #3 on: <02-18-18/0440:43> »
I mean...  Did you tell them that "unofficial" comment is by Steven Ratkovich, the SR Missions Developer, the guy who's in charge of the entire SRM thing?  He is literally the guy who decides what's Missions legal.  If your players don't accept that as a valid ruling, that's a little worrying.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <02-18-18/0442:14> »
I mean...  Did you tell them that "unofficial" comment is by Steven Ratkovich, the SR Missions Developer, the guy who's in charge of the entire SRM thing?  He is literally the guy who decides what's Missions legal.  If your players don't accept that as a valid ruling, that's a little worrying.

yep.  hence my use of the word ironic :D

All I can tell is they like it the way they been doing it, and they're sticking to RAW on "no house rules and official errata only".  So, yeah.  Trying to speak in a way that'll make sense to them.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

firebug

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« Reply #5 on: <02-18-18/0444:10> »
There isn't a way that I could come up with...  Or anyone, probably.  If that's not acceptable, they'll lawyer you over anything that doesn't match what they want.  I don't envy you.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: <02-18-18/0453:41> »
.. I don't envy you.

Heh.  You don't bullshit a bullshitter, and you don't try to ruleslawyer a ruleslawyer.  I'm sure if it comes to that, I can break out the "well SURE you get -2 dice to your zero dice.  So how JUST do you roll negative dice, anyway?  Here's how!  roll 2 dice, and each hit counts as a negative success!"

Heh,  not really.  There's academic rules-lawyering for theory's sake (which I've done with you lots of times lately, hope I've generally been respectful and reasonable!) and then there's what's acceptable at the table during actual play.  If they don't like the the "grenades and aoe indirect combat spells are success tests, not opposed tests.  There's nothing for you to roll to see if you dodge." argument, then it's SRM blanket rule 3: time to shut up and play.  I'm the GM.

If I end up not being re-invited to GM, well in the long run I'll probably be better off.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

tequila

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« Reply #7 on: <02-18-18/1034:46> »
If one is allowed to dodge grenades, rockets, missiles, and AOE indirect combat spells, then what is the point of RUN FOR YOUR LIFE/
DIVE ON THE GRENADE on p125 of Run & Gun?  Also, what would the defense test be against? When making one of the aforementioned attacks, the roll is against a threshold to place the attack in a location not to hit a character.
#thistasergoesto11

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ArmTech MGL-12: Nothing says love like a 3 round burst of HE Grenade to hit something for 32P
Nuff said.  :-X

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #8 on: <02-18-18/1303:26> »
Correct me if I'm wrong but you get a defense test against things targeting you. If the operator of a grenade launcher takes offense to your face and tries to shoot it I believe you absolutely should get a defense test not to get shot in the face.

On the flip side, if the grenadier shoots 5 feet to your right, there's really nothing for you to defend against, all you can do is GTFO.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #9 on: <02-18-18/1444:27> »
Correct me if I'm wrong but you get a defense test against things targeting you..

That's the rub.

Lobbing a grenade at the point between your feet is a Threshold 3 success test.  No opposed roll involved ergo no opportunity to make any defense test.

Now bringing the nature of language into it, perhaps you could argue that trying to land a grenade between your feet is plainly an attack intended to harm you and is thus "targeting" you.  But supporting that reading with the rest of the rules is problematic, but aided by the unfortunately still-not-officially-errata'd bit about you getting a -2 dice penalty to dodging aoe attacks.
« Last Edit: <02-18-18/1513:45> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #10 on: <02-18-18/2120:54> »
I don't see that reading at all. Would someone argue that a nuke wiping out their city block was targeting them?

But the real solution to the problem is talking to them out of character. If they don't see reason just give everyone fully automatic weapons and burst fire everyone's defense tests to zero first.
« Last Edit: <02-18-18/2122:36> by ShadowcatX »