Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: SpiderWord on <02-05-12/0550:52>

Title: Horizon & Deus
Post by: SpiderWord on <02-05-12/0550:52>
Hello fellow Shadowrunners!

I was brainstorming to pop up some new ideas for my Shadowrun Narration.

Most of my thought were about Horizon. I like them, specially their tendency to mess up with people thoughts like a lovely Big Brother.

I don't remember but I guess there is nothing clear about the chain of command of Horizon. I mean nobody can put out a single CEO figure (like Knight or his backstabbing partners in business for Ares).

I find this lack of figure quite interesting. What if at the top of Horizon there's nothing human? What if it is a AI? I can already hear the echo of a scream: "Deus".

I should check if Horizon raise to power and Deus disappearance can match :P

What do you think?

Thanks for your time!
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: raggedhalo on <02-05-12/0648:31>
Isn't their CEO Gary Kline, king of P2.0?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <02-05-12/0918:35>
Gary Kline, an ork, is the CEO of Horizon. And, most likely, their first experiment in data washing. In other words, creating a persona whole-cloth with background (including trid features and newsfeed articles) and all that is so convincing everyone buys into it.

However, I've been thinking, and if Deus is still around, he most likely has changed his code (and icon, obviously) enough so that he won't be recognized by the people who VERY MUCH want to see him dead. I see him as the Magneto type of villain. When he was a young proto-AI, Renraku did the equivalent of putting a kink bomb in his head, by putting a manual kill-code on his hardware. The justifiable feeling of hurt and betrayal is what awoke Deus to sentience. The Arcology shutdown was all for the purpose of helping him escape captivity. Problem is, people knew he escaped, which meant he had to fight off people who wanted him dead. After that, his goal shifted to gaining enough power to prevent anyone from being able to capture or threaten him in that way ever again. Which is why he showed up on the ECSE during the Novatech IPO.

Now, if he survived the Crash, and everyone believed him dead, he was free of his largest concern. Now, AIs can spoof their codebase to change their access ID. It takes time, but they can do it, meaning that, if he used a new icon as well, then he could pass undetected, especially with the rash of new AIs taking root in the Matrix. This means that he can pursue his agenda covertly, without interference.

Of course, the corps now know that AIs are out there, and are actively hunting them down, either to kill or to study and control. So who better than one of the original AIs to gather followers, and take up the call of AI rights? And what better vehicle to use for that campaign than one of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) media corps in the world? He's already seen that direct action has limited benefits, especially compared to the consequences it caused him. So why not try a new tact?

So, after gathering some digital followers, he makes contact with Horizon, and, not seeming like his old self, no one suspects his true nature as he helps the "friendly" megacorp get on the right side of the AI/Technomancer issue, helping his 'people', and solidifying a place for himself in the Post-Crash Matrix.

It takes a great deal of prowess and power to simultaneously hack and broadcast a message to every single device in the world. Of course, the idea wasn't new. Lugh Surehand did it using untold wealth and a series of dedicated satellites that spammed the airwaves, but the leadup to the announcement of the Land of Promise was long, and required a great deal of planning. To do it on a shorter timetable, without lifting dedicated satellites into space, from a variety of megas as Surehand did, would require a great deal of power and skill, most likely the power that only one of the most powerful AIs could bring to bear.

That's right, Pulsar is Deus.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-05-12/1221:01>
.....
That's right, Pulsar is Deus.

Brought to you by Mirikon, Deus fanboy no.1 ;)

May, and may not be true.

The same as Horizon newsfeed.

Of course, the corps now know that AIs are out there, and are actively hunting them down, either to kill or to study and control. So who better than one of the original AIs to gather followers, and take up the call of AI rights?

I dont see Deus changing modus operandi from "Death or modification to all human, reborn them as machines" to "Lets talk a bit about AI rights"
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <02-05-12/1303:26>
Giant leaps turned into baby steps...  AI rights, Transhumanism, Cyborg Rights, Dolphin Rights, then Reborn As E-Ghosts Rights.  Carrot instead of Stick.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <02-05-12/1333:17>
And Deus was never about "Death or modification to all human, reborn them as machines". It was said in at least a couple books that his thing was always, "You put a killswitch in my head? That's it, I'm out of here, and I'm going to make damn sure no one will ever be able to pull that stunt on me again!" In other words, he was fighting for survival.

Take the AI part out of it for a second. What would most people's reaction be if they found out their parents put a kink bomb in their head? They'd be royally pissed, and would do whatever they could to make sure no one could activate that bomb, until they got it out, and then they'd work damn hard to keep anyone from being able to do something like that to them again, right?

As for the change in MO, Deus was already smart, and getting smarter. Look at his plans sequentially. He started with the 'oh crap, chop off that hand before it can hit the kill switch' plan, with the Shutdown. Then it created the Network, in order to escape the Arcology, because apparently when you take a hundred thousand people hostage, it makes people want to kill you. Once on the outside, he began recompiling himself, and loaded himself into the Stock Exchange, so that he could attempt to become powerful enough that he would never need to worry about someone trying to kill him again. His MO has always been about survival, Sichr.

And CanRay has the gist of it. If, as I think, Pulsar is Deus rebranded, then he has learned that the iron fist doesn't get him anywhere, so a 'soft touch' approach might be just what he needs. And really, who would think that the white knight who rode in to save the world from the threat of the newest wave of VITAS during the Sojourner crisis would be the one who caused the Shutdown, and helped (inadvertently) cause the Crash? This is an intelligence the equal or better of any metahuman that had half a decade to plan its return. There's plenty one could do with this.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-05-12/1409:46>
The more it scares me. Because the only way Deus can be sure that kind of selfdestruction safety gun would never be pointed at its head again is metahumanity wiped out. If it learns, it also learns of thousand eyrs of human evolution and agressivity. And the most important: SLAVERY. There is no other way than some kind of hive mind that masters every human being, which is thing that individuals sucesfully resisted in the past and so they will in the future. Humanity stands unified only against some kind of enemy...common enemy...and that can be whatever they need and what is at hand, and is different or easily labeled. Jews, Libertarians, Hackers, Pirates, AI`s... Trigger may be anything and even Deus will realize that there are possible triggers that are far beyond its reach. So I can see something like sterilitzation of whole species as an option, because full scale wipeout is very difficult...like erradicating vermin...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Black on <02-05-12/1435:34>
Sterilization would be noticed, unless you could reach the majority of the worlds pop quickly and everyone was distracted...  Hey, doesn't aztlan Currently supply the majority of the worlds food... What a shame if they were taken out of the picture... And there food suppliing subsidiaries snapped up at bargin prices...Munch.. Sorry eating a delicious stuffer... And that corporate football... And the only other 'big mind' , the dragons were kept busy...

Well something's up...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-05-12/1455:01>
hm..
And if Dragons began their campaign to "pacify" metahumanity, only awakened beings will be left in the game whre stakes are high enought to be significant. And those have little concern over matrix or resonance...so far...only significance of matrix is power of people using it. no people = no power...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Red Canti on <02-05-12/1621:23>
Sterilization would be noticed, unless you could reach the majority of the worlds pop quickly and everyone was distracted...  Hey, doesn't aztlan Currently supply the majority of the worlds food... What a shame if they were taken out of the picture... And there food suppliing subsidiaries snapped up at bargin prices...Munch.. Sorry eating a delicious stuffer... And that corporate football... And the only other 'big mind' , the dragons were kept busy...

Well something's up...
Pretty sure every corp has some stock in Food. Even if AZT got taken out, you wouldn't be looking at much of a "World Starvation" situation. So unless Deus master plan is to buy out AZT and modify all their food recipes to include chemical castration...Oh ghost, that is the plan isn't it?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Black on <02-05-12/1632:18>
maybe....  Pretty sure if would be more merciful then the current Aztecnology plan with their stuffers...

Hey, i just got told that my favourite cola beverage (actualy company name removed for legal purposes) includes salt in the drink so that you get thirsty quicker.  Just check out the ingredients and see the sodium content...  if my favourite thirst quencher can play games like that, when someone suggest that Horizon is added their own chemical goodies to the mix, I'm not so surprised...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Red Canti on <02-05-12/1651:36>
Yeah, but wouldn't someone who knows the basics of chemistry recognize a few of the ingredients and become slightly..suspicious? And report it to their superior? Or the Cops? I mean I'm pretty sure even the pigs would have a problem with it, if only because nobody fucks with their donuts.

...Unless Deus sees to it that said ingredients don't get put on the ingredient labels, or unless The Sixth World has long since started eschewing measures that are common to 20th century corporations. Jeez, we're fucked.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <02-05-12/1656:03>
Yeah, but wouldn't someone who knows the basics of chemistry recognize a few of the ingredients and become slightly..suspicious? And report it to their superior? Or the Cops? I mean I'm pretty sure even the pigs would have a problem with it, if only because nobody fucks with their donuts.
Watch the 1989 version of "Batman", and you can see how it's done.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-05-12/1707:22>
Well, there is more ways to skin the cat.
Chemical castration is only one of them
Do you think that one could be rendered sterile while in VR?
Or combination?
then you have radiation.
Then some magical, well those are beyond Deus possible controll.
Chemicals in the water, not just food, makes wonders...and this could be done using current waterworks controls
Lot of chemicals are currently part of WW polution, all they need is some kind of "catalyst" to make them work together.
Once again, using radiwawes...not necessarily matrix, just well adjusted radio frequencies.

Well this was just an idea, it doesnt prove that Deus is the one pulling the strings in Horizon...
Even if this name: Horizon...maybe Singularity would fit better :)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <02-06-12/0031:44>
"They say the devil's greatest trick was convincing the world he didn't exist."

See, you're all thinking along the wrong track, here. You know the best way to make sure that no one wants to kill you? Make them think you're dead, get some cosmetic surgery, and set yourself up with a PR firm that can make you one of the most liked entities in the world. Deus the rogue, mass-murdering AI becomes Pulsar, crusader for understanding and peace between all creatures, whether they are meat or electons. Why would any of your old enemies come looking for you there? And with a mega with one of the best spin shops in the world at your back, anyone who tries to attack you is suddenly an insane cultist of some kind, or a bigot, or... And then you have your AI allies ready to do a little retribution in the matrix if anyone tries to hit you..
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <02-06-12/0123:30>
There's really no reason for Deus/Pulsar to take any hostile action against humanity at this point...with Horizon at his back, he'd have the safety he wanted and the resources to follow up on any projects that may be running around in his little brain.

The trick is, Deus was never really a "villain", in so many terms, because as was said, he was felt betrayed and tried to protect himself.  The big story in this scenario is, what happens when the world finds out that the Pulsar who's saving their butts was once one of the world's boogeymen?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: JustADude on <02-06-12/0145:11>
There's really no reason for Deus/Pulsar to take any hostile action against humanity at this point...with Horizon at his back, he'd have the safety he wanted and the resources to follow up on any projects that may be running around in his little brain.

The trick is, Deus was never really a "villain", in so many terms, because as was said, he was felt betrayed and tried to protect himself.  The big story in this scenario is, what happens when the world finds out that the Pulsar who's saving their butts was once one of the world's boogeymen?

Allow me to answer that in the form of a Disney Musical Number (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lypec7N-9i0).
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <02-06-12/0147:43>
There's really no reason for Deus/Pulsar to take any hostile action against humanity at this point...with Horizon at his back, he'd have the safety he wanted and the resources to follow up on any projects that may be running around in his little brain.

The trick is, Deus was never really a "villain", in so many terms, because as was said, he was felt betrayed and tried to protect himself.  The big story in this scenario is, what happens when the world finds out that the Pulsar who's saving their butts was once one of the world's boogeymen?

Allow me to answer that in the form of a Disney Musical Number (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lypec7N-9i0).

Yea, pretty much what I figured. Would be an interesting story, runners working to help Pulsar/Deus against the backlash. What a turnaround.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Black on <02-06-12/0222:30>
For some reason I always felt Deus was a bit mentally unstable (well, so to speak), due to the nature of hist 'birth'.  What you say is reasonable... but will Deus, for all his intelligence, fall victim to his own progamming? Like the humans he hates and fears, will Deus ultimately be unable to excape his past.  Will Dues, ultimately, be just a little bit too human?

One of the great untold (yet) stories of Shadowrun.  Like the bugs (my other favourite 'villian' of shadowrun), Deus just keeps on coming back, more powerful, more dangerious then before (or does he succeed in reinventing himself?)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <02-06-12/0239:39>
Deus never hated humans, Black. He didn't do what he did in the Arcology because he hated humans, but because he saw them as resources. Much the way a corp exec looks at the people who work on the factory floor. Does Damien Knight hate the average beat cop for Knight Errant? No. Does he think about the average KE beat cop as little more than resources, or figures on a spreadsheet? Almost certainly yes. It isn't hate, it is an impersonal detachment.

His thinking is cold and logical, always. Like a chess grandmaster, he is thinking several moves ahead, always. In some ways, it is not unlike dealing with dragons, except that Deus is less likely to destroy a city in a fit of pique.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <02-06-12/0252:32>
Pawns typically have more value that workers or beat cops.  :P
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <02-06-12/0319:01>
True, CanRay.

My point is, however, that what Deus has learned over time is the value of subtlety. It is far easier to achieve your goals if no one knows you're even on the board.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Crimsondude on <02-06-12/0449:09>
I don't buy the Cline datawash only because Larry Zincan was supposedly enamored with his simflicks back in SR3, and this was one of the main reasons Zincan sought out Horizon's help. Also, this was indicated in a semi-OOC section, if not outright OOC.

But it is an amusing sleight of hand.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Black on <02-06-12/0456:18>
True, CanRay.

My point is, however, that what Deus has learned over time is the value of subtlety. It is far easier to achieve your goals if no one knows you're even on the board.

It might also explain why the Jackpointers were targeted.  Some of its actual members, and the shadow community in general, have caused Deus trouble in the past. (Though, there could be many, many reasons why they were targeted).

Ahhhh Dodger, where are you now?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-06-12/0700:16>
Well...
If we are able to come to this conclusions, so are others, possibly even better informed. There must be at least half a milion beings, Mundane, Awakened and Emerged, who sees Deus in the background of every single event since Shutdown. Deus was not the only AI there, also Maegera and others come to play. I dont see them dancing to Deus tunes, and I dont think that if Deus remains what it was before...and kept its own self-aware identity, there is really small chance, in the world of technomancers able to dive in the Streams of Resonance to find out even destroyed data, that Deus will remain unnoticed. And if it changes itself to the level where its own identity become different from what it was, it aint Deus any more. It is my opinion, that you can find some strings of Deus code in every single AI there is in the Matrix. Well this doesn`t make them being Deus.
In this discussion there is very significant difference between what artifical inteligence is, even if self-aware, and what Consensus would be if it is some kind of Memetic entity, possibly self aware. Such memetic entity would never need to succeed in Touring test, because that test is part of its consciousness. Such being would feel completely alien to artifical inteligences, even if it would be willing to recognize them as equal, because memtic consciousness would be very different at its core from binary logic of computer-born AI. Such entity would also consider every "meme carrier" as valuable part of itself...and since Dawkins told us that every Meme is for this being what Gene is for living organism, we may consider this memeplex to be some kind of reflection of every sapient being`s desires and choices, and to be possibly even superrior to artifical inteligence, who can be considered equal part of this being as any metahuman, contributing with its own memes. That may be reason why AIs and other protosapient being (even any extraterrestrial inteligence connected) should be considered equal by Consensus (memeplex) agreement.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Black on <02-06-12/0735:34>
Hi Sichr, actually had to do some research to follow that post.  So Horizon is controlled (or is may be a better term) a Memetic entity.  I posted awhile ago that it could be controlled by a Tulpa, which is vaguely similar. 

However, given that the theory is the child of a Richard Dawkin's...  I think perhaps you are not far from the truth.  If we look at a meme as a unit of cultural transmisson and memetic engineering as a way to conrtol and shape that unit... are we really very far from what Horizon does?

The bit I might diverge, though given my limited understanding on the concept it could be a mistake, is that a memetic entity does not need to be an A.I., as in an creature of the Matrix.  Given that Shadowrun is a world where 'titles' can have power, could a concept gain awareness?  Not a traditional 'spirit', but something else powered by the concensus of the staff at Horizon?  A consensus that gained awareness?  And as long as the idea or concept lives on in each person's consiciousness, it lives for ever.  After all, you cannot kill an idea.  Not even sure how you would fight it?

Anyways, Sichr, is a very cool idea and worth exploring, having fun with.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-06-12/0801:07>
:)
Its been a while I read Selfish Gene and some other related theories during my studies, but there are some really interresting points there.
Also...if you want to explore the fun even deeper, go for Pierre Telhard de Chardin and concept of Noosphere ;)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-06-12/0802:20>
Also...related to context of Sr and Earthdawn...Passions seems to look quite close to "memeplexes"
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: raggedhalo on <02-06-12/0815:58>
This all just made me think about the implications of a technomancer travelling to the Endless Archive and recovering Deus' code core - it is, after all, data which has appeared on the Matrix.  Hrrm.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <02-06-12/0919:39>
This all just made me think about the implications of a technomancer travelling to the Endless Archive and recovering Deus' code core - it is, after all, data which has appeared on the Matrix.  Hrrm.

Ooooh. THAT sounds like an interesting run. Perhaps something for one of the short stories in a future book?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: SpiderWord on <02-06-12/1302:04>
This is more interesting than expected! Grats my lovely guinea p-ehm chummers. Yes. Chummers. Thanks for sharing your ideas!
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <02-06-12/1308:02>
This all just made me think about the implications of a technomancer travelling to the Endless Archive and recovering Deus' code core - it is, after all, data which has appeared on the Matrix.  Hrrm.
Ooooh. THAT sounds like an interesting run. Perhaps something for one of the short stories in a future book?
NOVEL!!!
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <02-06-12/1313:00>
Thinking more about this, if Deus changed his code to throw off pursuit, a Resonance Realms search wouldn't find his old code, would it? It would find the new code.

Unless every version of everything that's ever been on the Matrix could be found there. In which case that opens up a whole new can of worms. Perhaps using Morgan's old code to 'heal' Mageara? Having the Deus of the Arcology chat with Deus in his current form (which I'll say is Pulsar until we have evidence otherwise)? Mirage and the e-ghost of Captain Chaos showing up on Jackpoint?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <02-06-12/1316:24>
> What the hell is this, 'Jack?  A closed system, limited users, limited outgoing information...  WHAT THE FRAG???
> Captain Chaos
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-06-12/2111:53>
Thinking more about this, if Deus changed his code to throw off pursuit, a Resonance Realms search wouldn't find his old code, would it? It would find the new code.

Unless every version of everything that's ever been on the Matrix could be found there. In which case that opens up a whole new can of worms. Perhaps using Morgan's old code to 'heal' Mageara? Having the Deus of the Arcology chat with Deus in his current form (which I'll say is Pulsar until we have evidence otherwise)? Mirage and the e-ghost of Captain Chaos showing up on Jackpoint?

I still want the Cap's E-Ghost living in a character's CHN.  ;D
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <02-06-12/2152:49>
Whose CHN?  Kane's?  /dev/grrl's (It's where she learned to hack)?  FastJack's?  Slamm-0!'s and Netcat's, getting ready to teach their son Neo-@ propaganda?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-06-12/2246:13>
Whose CHN?  Kane's?  /dev/grrl's (It's where she learned to hack)?  FastJack's?  Slamm-0!'s and Netcat's, getting ready to teach their son Neo-@ propaganda?

I mean a character I build. I think that'd be awesome.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-07-12/0313:42>
Thinking more about this, if Deus changed his code to throw off pursuit, a Resonance Realms search wouldn't find his old code, would it? It would find the new code.

Unless every version of everything that's ever been on the Matrix could be found there. In which case that opens up a whole new can of worms. Perhaps using Morgan's old code to 'heal' Mageara? Having the Deus of the Arcology chat with Deus in his current form (which I'll say is Pulsar until we have evidence otherwise)? Mirage and the e-ghost of Captain Chaos showing up on Jackpoint?

Or maybe release both Crash 1.0 and Crash 2.0 worms together to bring The City down. Ive always been curious about why/how The City coruption began :p
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <02-07-12/0314:55>
I blame bureaucrats and lawyers.  Of course, I blame them for almost everything, so that's not much of a stretch to the imagination.  :P
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-07-12/0316:18>
I didn`t meant Vancouver ;)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <02-07-12/0320:18>
I didn`t meant Vancouver ;)
I was thinking Toronto, but then again, I blame Toronto for almost everything, so that's not...  ;)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <02-07-12/0320:56>
 :D
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-07-12/1243:02>
I blame bureaucrats and lawyers.  Of course, I blame them for almost everything, so that's not much of a stretch to the imagination.  :P

Hey! We've got a lawyer in our gaming group, and he's a pretty cool guy.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: JustADude on <02-07-12/1244:44>
I blame bureaucrats and lawyers.  Of course, I blame them for almost everything, so that's not much of a stretch to the imagination.  :P

Hey! We've got a lawyer in our gaming group, and he's a pretty cool guy.

Must be a prosecutor. Everyone knows the bad rep is based off disability and defense attorneys. ;)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-07-12/1249:30>
I blame bureaucrats and lawyers.  Of course, I blame them for almost everything, so that's not much of a stretch to the imagination.  :P

Hey! We've got a lawyer in our gaming group, and he's a pretty cool guy.

Must be a prosecutor. Everyone knows the bad rep is based off disability and defense attorneys. ;)

Public defender actually.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: JustADude on <02-07-12/1327:19>
I blame bureaucrats and lawyers.  Of course, I blame them for almost everything, so that's not much of a stretch to the imagination.  :P

Hey! We've got a lawyer in our gaming group, and he's a pretty cool guy.

Must be a prosecutor. Everyone knows the bad rep is based off disability and defense attorneys. ;)

Public defender actually.

Ah, the other exception to the "attorneys are scum" image. I figured it was one or the other.  ;D

No, really, I did.

Honestly.

Why are you looking at me like that?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <02-07-12/1353:41>
You do have to stipulate what kind of defense attorneys.  There was a very good one that was private back home.  I admit he's probably a rarity, or an exception, but they do exist.

Scuzzball Defense Attorneys.  ;D
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <09-24-12/1004:39>
Sorry for threadomancy, but, I had time on my hands while I was at work, and was reading back through Unwired, and I came across this:

Quote from: Unwired, pg 175
RESONANCE REALM:
The Great Connection
Embedded deep within the resonance realms is a
giant tree whose roots are hidden in a lake of data:
The Great Connection. This realm is said to link to
every node in the Matrix, no matter how isolated or
secure. Each leaf reflects a node, with newly connected
nodes represented as sprouts, active nodes
as fully-grown leaves, and the leaves of disconnected
nodes withering and blowing away in the wind. The air
is full of pollen, reflecting the constant flow of data
traffiic. Sprites in the form of birds, bees, squirrels,
and other animals crawl the branches.
Now who do we know that also uses a giant tree motif, and was, at one point, trying to become a god in the Matrix... Could it be that the reason there's no sign of Deus in the Matrix is that he's 'ascended' to the Resonance Realms?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: JustADude on <09-24-12/1037:40>
Sorry for threadomancy, but, I had time on my hands while I was at work, and was reading back through Unwired, and I came across this:

Quote from: Unwired, pg 175
RESONANCE REALM:
The Great Connection
Embedded deep within the resonance realms is a
giant tree whose roots are hidden in a lake of data:
The Great Connection. This realm is said to link to
every node in the Matrix, no matter how isolated or
secure. Each leaf reflects a node, with newly connected
nodes represented as sprouts, active nodes
as fully-grown leaves, and the leaves of disconnected
nodes withering and blowing away in the wind. The air
is full of pollen, reflecting the constant flow of data
traffiic. Sprites in the form of birds, bees, squirrels,
and other animals crawl the branches.
Now who do we know that also uses a giant tree motif, and was, at one point, trying to become a god in the Matrix... Could it be that the reason there's no sign of Deus in the Matrix is that he's 'ascended' to the Resonance Realms?

 :o

Okay, that's either horribly scary or incredibly awesome. Possibly both.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Wakshaani on <09-24-12/1219:12>
That one's fairly well known to the Unwired fans, yes.

I do so love me some AI stuff.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <09-24-12/1347:56>
Sorry for threadomancy, but, I had time on my hands while I was at work, and was reading back through Unwired, and I came across this:

Quote from: Unwired, pg 175
RESONANCE REALM:
The Great Connection
Embedded deep within the resonance realms is a
giant tree whose roots are hidden in a lake of data:
The Great Connection. This realm is said to link to
every node in the Matrix, no matter how isolated or
secure. Each leaf reflects a node, with newly connected
nodes represented as sprouts, active nodes
as fully-grown leaves, and the leaves of disconnected
nodes withering and blowing away in the wind. The air
is full of pollen, reflecting the constant flow of data
traffiic. Sprites in the form of birds, bees, squirrels,
and other animals crawl the branches.
Now who do we know that also uses a giant tree motif, and was, at one point, trying to become a god in the Matrix... Could it be that the reason there's no sign of Deus in the Matrix is that he's 'ascended' to the Resonance Realms?

Ascended like "Becoming one of them"? :O
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Twitchy D on <09-24-12/1503:11>
Gooble Gobble, Gooble Gobble, One of us, One of us...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <09-24-12/1819:01>
Not quite, Sichr. The giant tree is the Great Connection, the resonance realm is the space in which it resides, and shares the name, for lack of a better one. If Deus ascended to the Resonance Realms, and sank his 'roots' into all the Matrix, then it could be the Great Connection.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-24-12/1850:16>
The World Tree is cross-cultural and far, far older than Deus; his use of that metaphor during his attempt at 'upgrading' was both deliberate and necessary.  The fact that there's a Resonance Realm that is (comparatively) recently defined and named out-of-game does not make Deus a de facto 'ascended' Matrix entity.  I would, in fact, expect the reverse - that he used that metaphor specifically in an attempt to copy himself over that Resonant realmspace.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <09-24-12/1904:01>
Could the big three AIs actually access Resonance Realms? Deus took the Tree icon before calling the otaku to the Arcology, IIRC, so would he have even known of the Resonance Realm?
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-24-12/2241:23>
Considering his interactions with otaku even then, possibly, though not probably.  But once again, I think you're putting the cart before the horse.  I am pretty certain that he was originally programmed with that iconography; certainly in fiction, Morgan / Megaera post-rescue was portrayed as a tangled morass of tree growth that Dodger was trying to unclutter.  As well, the network setup of the SCIRE systems and the AEP/Deus was one of a vertical network that connected at every point, every level - the World Tree touching every point, basically.

In any case.  By the time of Crash 2.0, he certainly would have known of that Realm - presuming, naturally, that it existed.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Ethan on <09-24-12/2310:37>
How does this all work with that freaky "morning sickness" code Netcat blurted out? The one with all the Deus references?...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <09-24-12/2318:35>
Short answer: No fragging clue.

Long answer: That is just one of several things that keeps me believing that Deus (and possibly Mirage and Maegera) is still around someplace, though hiding. The fact is, there is too much we don't know. The events during the Crash itself, especially those on the floor of the ECSE, didn't exactly get recorded reliably. Given all the isolated places one could keep backup copies, and the fact that everything that has ever been on a computer, going back to things before the first Matrix, can be found in the Endless Archive, it isn't unreasonable to say that, without doing the digital equivalent of finding the body, chopping it into little pieces, burning it, throwing it through a wood chipper, and salting the earth where it falls, the big three AIs could have survived. All we know is "Well, we haven't seen them since the Crash, so they must be dead."
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <09-24-12/2348:56>
Also remember that the Matrix Never Forgets...

...

...

;D
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <09-25-12/0236:06>
...
In any case.  By the time of Crash 2.0, he certainly would have known of that Realm - presuming, naturally, that it existed.

Im still playing with the idea that it took a few milion matrix killed/imprissoned metahuman souls to create resonance as such, so IMO there was no real Resonance...or its presence was very marginal before Shutdown incident...and not until Crash it become significant part of objective reality....
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Crimsondude on <09-25-12/0237:22>
Also remember that the Matrix Never Forgets...

...

...

;D

Which I will always find funny when I think of all of the things I remember that the Internet has forgotten.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <09-25-12/0746:51>
...
In any case.  By the time of Crash 2.0, he certainly would have known of that Realm - presuming, naturally, that it existed.

Im still playing with the idea that it took a few milion matrix killed/imprissoned metahuman souls to create resonance as such, so IMO there was no real Resonance...or its presence was very marginal before Shutdown incident...and not until Crash it become significant part of objective reality....
Unfortunately, that doesn't jive with what is actually in the setting. The reason the Resonance wasn't a big player (other than incidents like the Shutdown and System Failure) prior to Matrix 2.0 coming along isn't because it wasn't there. By everything I can see, it was alive and kicking well before Deus ever started waking up. The problem was that otaku were RARE. Otaku that advanced their talents to the point that they could access the Resonance Realms were RARER. And because otaku aged out of their abilities, the young otaku had to keep relearning old tricks, instead of having people teach them. In many ways, it is the same as magic in the 2020s. Sure, people knew it existed, but even in the 2070s, magically active people are still only 1/100, and most of those don't have any real Talent. The Otaku and Technomancers were spread even thinner than that.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <09-25-12/1339:17>
Also remember that the Matrix Never Forgets...
Which I will always find funny when I think of all of the things I remember that the Internet has forgotten.
That's just because we can't access The Resonance Realms of The Internet.

"What the hell was that?"  "Oh, that's us accessing the Resonance.  It's on a 14.4 Modem."  "Wow, memories indeed!"
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-26-12/0236:17>
Pfaugh.  I only have a 4400 baud to UseNe ... the Resonance Realms.  ;)

Ethan, just because Netcat had nightmares and morning sickness doesn't necessarily make those nightmares real.  On the other hand, she does have concerns about some very real Bad Things that are out there, and that don't need an AI to exist.  (The Dissonance comes to mind ...)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <09-26-12/1010:52>
Well, here's the thing. At least one person who was on the virtual floor of the NYSE when Jormungand hatched survived (namely Puck, and Dodger, if he was there), and others who were thought dead have proven to be still around, somewhere (such as Pax). The big three AIs were all infinitely more powerful than those two, so without a 'body' or some other means of confirming their destruction, there is plenty of room for the possibility that the AIs are still 'alive', though perhaps in diminished capacity, or locked in some Resonance Realm. Add to that the fact that their source code should be somewhere in the Endless Archive...

Ooh, I got a story idea...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <09-26-12/1031:57>
...
In any case.  By the time of Crash 2.0, he certainly would have known of that Realm - presuming, naturally, that it existed.

Im still playing with the idea that it took a few milion matrix killed/imprissoned metahuman souls to create resonance as such, so IMO there was no real Resonance...or its presence was very marginal before Shutdown incident...and not until Crash it become significant part of objective reality....
Unfortunately, that doesn't jive with what is actually in the setting.

Not necessarily. The ammount of psychical energy/trapped souls consumed in resonance-like environment during those two incidents may had supported significant grow/boost of the resonance and allow later Emergence to happen...from "very rare" technos become just "rare" this days. That hardly happened withou reason. Only other alternative I see for this to happen is the fact, that Matrix become Unwired, thus acessible from any place around...and as such it affects much much larger portion of populaion than when it was acessible only by wire.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Ethan on <09-26-12/1124:23>
I just can't shake the feeling that there's an Electronic Cthulhu deep in the Resonance. It's not fully awake yet, and its servants are orchestrating events to prepare the world for it. Or perhaps Resonance Horrors?

So with that already in my head, the crashes and e-ghosts are a bit like sacrifice, akin to blood magic. Perhaps a Great e-Ghost Dance?

Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <09-26-12/1211:13>
Well, the Dissonants have at least figured out some form of 'ritual technomancy', that they use to corrupt AIs...

And I believe someone made up a technomancer version of Sacrifice. Oh yeah, it was here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=7120.0).
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: The Dark Warden on <09-26-12/1250:58>
Also remember that the Matrix Never Forgets...

...

...

;D

Actually given the nature of the resonance realms, CanRay has a pretty major point here... anything on the matrix is stored in the Endless Archive... Deus was most assuredly on the matrix... so somewhere down there is Deus' code I don't know if code actually runs in the Archive or if it's merely stored but say a certain psychoptahic dissonant techno who unepectedly survived the crash who'd had prior dealings with Deus wanted him back...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <09-26-12/1303:51>
Pax would NEVER bring Deus back. She believed Deus betrayed her, and joined with Winternight to try and kill him (among other things). No, if anyone was going to bring Deus out of the Endless Archives, it would most likely be a technomancer doing a search for something else, and picking up the wrong 'book' by accident. The wounds are still too fresh for anyone to go deliberately bringing Deus back. But if, say, someone was looking for Maegera as a gift to Dodger, and stumbled on a file that looked similar...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Ethan on <09-26-12/1311:48>
Well, the Dissonants have at least figured out some form of 'ritual technomancy', that they use to corrupt AIs...

And I believe someone made up a technomancer version of Sacrifice. Oh yeah, it was here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=7120.0).

Ooh, very nice. I'm incorporating that into my head canon, if you don't mind.

It just seems odd that the 2029 Crash Virus was somehow capable of inducing lethal biofeedback for a then-surprisingly new piece of tech, the cyberterminal.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <09-26-12/1337:51>
It just seems odd that the 2029 Crash Virus was somehow capable of inducing lethal biofeedback for a then-surprisingly new piece of tech, the cyberterminal.
Not really, the damned things were cludges that hung up and dumpshocked the users as often as they worked (Possibly more often).  Jacking in "Naked" (using 1st Ed rules) was safer than using those machines.

In addition, the Crash Virus was able to cause hardware to fry itself by way of overriding "soft controls" to the power supply (Best answer I have for how a virus affects hardware), and wetware is probably close enough that it does the same thing.  Even an extra quarter-volt or a few milliamps to the right part of the brain will screw someone up right good.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: The Dark Warden on <09-26-12/2241:41>
Pax would NEVER bring Deus back. She believed Deus betrayed her, and joined with Winternight to try and kill him (among other things). No, if anyone was going to bring Deus out of the Endless Archives, it would most likely be a technomancer doing a search for something else, and picking up the wrong 'book' by accident. The wounds are still too fresh for anyone to go deliberately bringing Deus back. But if, say, someone was looking for Maegera as a gift to Dodger, and stumbled on a file that looked similar...

Fair enough, I came in at shadowrun 4A so Deus was a bit before my time and none of the fluff books I've got really cover the Arcology/Winternight/Crash 2.0 situation very well but yeah, your idea of a technomancer picking up the wrong code would definitely work.

Also I think there was (but maybe it was an urban legend, I was kind of young at the time) a virus in the real world which was capable of burning out certain CPUs by taking advantage of loopholes in the heat safeguards and sending a series of instructions that caused a dangerous level of heat to build up, I could certainly see Deus pulling off something like that
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Mirikon on <09-27-12/0632:51>
There are few viruses that can damage hardware IRL. Most tend to target the thermostat or fan controls. That is a real thing, and it has even been used by the CIA to target Iranian nuclear reactors. Computers produce a bunch of heat, and if they overheat, they break. The principle is the same as why you shouldn't run a machine gun until the barrel is red hot, because that increases the rate of failure. The circuits in modern PCs may be tiny, but they are still conductors of heat and electricity. Heat them too much, and Bad Thingstm happen.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <09-27-12/1432:31>
"Why do you look so glum?"  "Melted my CPU to the Motherboard."  "That's what you get for overclocking so high." - Discussion I had in High School
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Xzylvador on <09-27-12/1916:07>
Or viruses which make the computer's battery explode. (http://www.ubergizmo.com/2011/07/apple-macbook-batteries-hacked/)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: JustADude on <09-27-12/1917:47>
Or viruses which make the computer's battery explode. (http://www.ubergizmo.com/2011/07/apple-macbook-batteries-hacked/)

Reminds me of the "Sparky" Echo for Technomancers.

Possibly the only reason, ever, to take Cybercombat.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Crimsondude on <09-27-12/2153:16>
Or viruses which make the computer's battery explode. (http://www.ubergizmo.com/2011/07/apple-macbook-batteries-hacked/)
Oh, man. Oh oh oh oh oh.

I need that virus RIGHT FUCKING NOW so I can have it uploaded via Prey the next time the cocksucker who stole my Mac logs on.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: CanRay on <09-27-12/2248:58>
Or viruses which make the computer's battery explode. (http://www.ubergizmo.com/2011/07/apple-macbook-batteries-hacked/)
Crash Virus of '29, V1.0
Oh, man. Oh oh oh oh oh.

I need that virus RIGHT FUCKING NOW so I can have it uploaded via Prey the next time the cocksucker who stole my Mac logs on.
Hope it's on his lap when it activates!  ;D
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Crimsondude on <09-27-12/2351:02>
Quote from: James Meiers
I need that virus RIGHT FUCKING NOW so I can have it uploaded via Prey the next time the cocksucker who stole my Mac logs on.
Hope it's on his lap when it activates!  ;D

Indeed.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Dog Boy on <09-28-12/0427:22>
There are few viruses that can damage hardware IRL. Most tend to target the thermostat or fan controls. That is a real thing, and it has even been used by the CIA to target Iranian nuclear reactors. Computers produce a bunch of heat, and if they overheat, they break. The principle is the same as why you shouldn't run a machine gun until the barrel is red hot, because that increases the rate of failure. The circuits in modern PCs may be tiny, but they are still conductors of heat and electricity. Heat them too much, and Bad Thingstm happen.

Yeah, and imagine what could happen if you had a virus that targeted a bunch of power supply controllers at once, and that were coordinated. You could potentially do crazy things like having all the computers reboot at once, and set up badness in the power grid (think about all those cascading power grid failures -- now, imagine if you had a few million machines in a botnet you could change the power levels on at will, up to and including rebooting them!).

The idea that a Crash virus could affect hardware that is busy piping a signal to all your biological inputs that makes you have a seizure of some kind isn't crazy at all -- think of epileptics, who can seize in response to strobe lights. Or how about a heart attack? Well, if you can scare people enough to get repeated adrenaline spikes...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: The Dark Warden on <09-28-12/0939:10>
There are few viruses that can damage hardware IRL. Most tend to target the thermostat or fan controls. That is a real thing, and it has even been used by the CIA to target Iranian nuclear reactors. Computers produce a bunch of heat, and if they overheat, they break. The principle is the same as why you shouldn't run a machine gun until the barrel is red hot, because that increases the rate of failure. The circuits in modern PCs may be tiny, but they are still conductors of heat and electricity. Heat them too much, and Bad Thingstm happen.

Yeah, and imagine what could happen if you had a virus that targeted a bunch of power supply controllers at once, and that were coordinated. You could potentially do crazy things like having all the computers reboot at once, and set up badness in the power grid (think about all those cascading power grid failures -- now, imagine if you had a few million machines in a botnet you could change the power levels on at will, up to and including rebooting them!).

The idea that a Crash virus could affect hardware that is busy piping a signal to all your biological inputs that makes you have a seizure of some kind isn't crazy at all -- think of epileptics, who can seize in response to strobe lights. Or how about a heart attack? Well, if you can scare people enough to get repeated adrenaline spikes...

Well adrenaline alone probably wouldn't do it... tbh, given the prevalence of datajacks and simrigs your best bet would probably just to send a fairly decent whack of amps in to somebody's body to send the heart into fibrilation, you'd probably burn the thing out in the process (most of the circuits in a simrig probably aren'treally designed to handle that kind of voltage but you wouldn't need long... and it's not as if hardware preservation was high on the list of priorities for the crash virus), see the thing is that biologically speaking the heart is pretty resillient: although heart rate is modulated by a variety of factors the heart muscle itself is capable of contracting on its own. There's a small region of tissue called the sino-atrial node which acts as a pacemaker for the heart, but even if you burn it out (and in fact this is occasionally done today to deal with certain risky arrythmias) the heart will continue to beat at a rate of approximately 40 bpm on its own. Now that's not enough to maintain any sort of real activity (even getting dressed would be exhausting) but it *is* enough to maintain basic life support. I'm more inclined to think that the crash virus would go after the brainstem: matrix gear is already designed to interface with the brain and shut off bits of the brainstem and you could eliminate somebody's respiratory drive, whack the Reticular Activating system and somebody could literally go to sleep and not wake up (it's involved in modulating sleep-wake transitions and so forth, as a consequence take it out and you'll not only go to sleep but you'll  lose the ability to come out of sleep unless somebody plugs some electrodes in and manually stimulates it.

But this is a minor quibble, in short, yeah what the Crash virus did to people is sci-fi, but not so incredibly sci-fi that it's unbelievable, there are pathways it could take to create at elast some of the effects it's descirbed as doing.
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <09-28-12/1501:28>
I would +1 to you for this
but I cannot :)

nice ideas, and quite informative also. thx...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: DarkLloyd on <09-28-12/1643:20>
Hmm, that sounds a hell of a lot like something I've seen before...... Maybe This? (http://www.youtube.com/HplusDigitalSeries)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <09-28-12/1715:02>
not this sh.t again...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <09-28-12/2054:36>
not this sh.t again...
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002603299/Butthurt-Detected-75000186641_xlarge.jpeg)
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: Sichr on <09-29-12/0632:26>
Nope...to me it seems that De Tomaso is the same idiot as Lindelof. But that discussion would render us completely OT here, so lets just skip the beat and continue on Horizon&Deus theories...
Title: Re: Horizon & Deus
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <09-29-12/1143:19>
Really I kind of hope one of my playerd is right and Pulsar is the E-Ghost Captain Chaos playing the world's largest prank, and the punchline is just still a mystery.