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2019: 30th Anniversary Edition, or 6th Edition?

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PMárk

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« Reply #30 on: <08-07-18/1333:58> »
I hope we get another 4 years out of fifth edition, at least.
If it unfucks the Matrix and gets TMs out of the cell with Bubba the Love Troll, I'm good with 6E dropping YESTERDAY.

Unlikely.  No edition of shadowrun has ever succeeded at unfucking the matrix.  And it's been one of the stated major design goals of at least one.  ;D
Admittedly, I've only played 4th and 5th, but I didn't think the matrix in 4th was all that bad. Certainly no worse than the astral for mages and spirits. There were issues, of course, but they were nowhere near the level of clusterfrag the 5e matrix was. Hell, the main concern of Hackers vs Technos was how TMs could get high-rating programs through threading, but most of those arguments were done in what I like to call 'arena-style' instead of 'campaign-style' builds. In other words, like those D&D arena fights where you take two builds that are uber-optimized for a single battle, and let them loose, as opposed to characters that are viable for a full campaign, when the down-side of taking Fading and Matrix damage directly to your brain becomes more pronounced.

Its a matter of perspective really.
The matrix from 4 to 5 is worse for some options, that is very true.
The matrix from 1-3 to 5 is a massive improvement by all measures!
I have talked about this before, so I won't repeat myself. But if you want to understand the difference, get your hands on an old 3e CRB and read up. Just have a dustbin close by to catch exploded grey matter...

And it's not just the old Matrix. I became acquainted with SR maybe three years from now and we started with 3e, because the old-timers of the group knew that. We hopefully transitioning at least to 5e, but it's a slow process, because of time isues and people. Don't get me wrong, I love 3e for many reasons. The history part at the beginning got me to love SR in no time. I think the metatype writeups were the best. In general, the writing was good. I love gritty b&w artworks in books.

That said, it set a new standard for totally-unnecessarily overcomplicated clusterfrag of rules for me. :D We still have to look up how damage and armor works and I'm the only plpayer in the group who didn't play it prior to this campaign...

Compared to that, 5e is a breeze. Yeah, it's crunchy, but I'm okay with it.
« Last Edit: <08-07-18/1336:21> by PMárk »
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Marcus

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« Reply #31 on: <08-07-18/1423:50> »

Good for you!

As long as you are having fun, that is all that matters.  And at least you can say you actually gave them a try.

Me, I'm still holding out hope for an edition of Shadowrun that is worth spending money on.  I've not paid into a franchise that had such a bad track record over multiple editions before.  I'm hoping 6th will fix that, whether is comes this year or five from now.

If that is really your opinion on SR, why exactly are you on this board? There are games that have a bad track record, but SR is not one of them, just FYI.   
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Marcus

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« Reply #32 on: <08-07-18/1432:03> »
Speed 8 ftw, man. 
2-3, 5-6, 8-9, 11-12

Yeah pretty much. I love Heroes system don't get me wrong, Steve Long has contributed so much the industry and the gaming conversation in general. But lets not pretend there aren't issues even the most well intended attempts at things. It's the only system where I accept use of character gen software as a better idea then just doing by hand. Players and fractions are not good friends. lol


I give it another year, maybe two. That puts it right in line with most editions of the game for 'length of service'.

I expect we will see play testing start in a couple years, that's working as intended. D&D 6th Play testing will kick off around there i expect as well.
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drjmoriarity@gmail.com

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« Reply #33 on: <08-07-18/1504:43> »
Hopefully the next edition fixes alot of the problems with the game... i spent a month learning the rules, played the game with my group and they all were so frustrated with the combat and learning the rules that we all just moved the game over to hero system and used the shadowrun books as lore and econamy and equiptment and critter guide...

Despite the wishful thinking of several folks in this thread, 5th is here to stay, and will be with us for a good while to come.
If you swapped to heroes thinking you would avoid complexity you made a mistake lol.
Pools and limits are easy, just take the time get used to it. You will get used to formules very quickly.  5th SR is reasonably intuitive once you understand the logic of the system.

Compared the static and combat dominating nature of the heroes speed chart SR, is much more dynamic. At least everyone will get to go before your fastest player goes 3 more times lol.

HeroSystem may be complicated but I KNOW hero, like the back of my hand, I am so proficient with it i can create entire character sheets on the fly with zero hesitation.

But the big thing is its not the complexity that drove my players away from shadowrun, They just werent having fun, The Opposed die rolls were hell and so the GM was rolling as much if not more than the players ( My table hates opposed die rolls like in gurps ) and combat was so slow and plotting cause of it, and everyone had so much health that we felt like the slow pace of combat was made even longer... when you gotta shoot a guy 10 times to kill him and you have to do opposed die rolls every time and it just made the combat not flow very well.
So by the end of a single encounter my players were feeling drained... none of them wanted to do anything cool or exciting cause they basically had to punch a random thug over and over again just to knock em unconscious which was just an endever with the opposing checks.

The players prefer a faster more dicey type of combat, so bullets are scary and combat is fast and franetic and bombastic, plus hero system martial maneuvers are fun and exciting, so you are suplexing people and charging them and throwing them through tables and it all feels intuitive and fast paced.

But in the end it just came down to that when my players played SR they didnt have fun.. I wanted them too, i did all my usual descriptions and flourishes and passion but it wasnt working for us.
( Also shadowrun really needs a hitlock or a wounding chart for losing limbs and extremities, the game would be much more fun if people were being blasted accross the room with knock back and having eyes and ears blown off, for being an old school gragnard system that cares about everything from wind pressure to chunky salsa grenade rules it really doesnt spend alot of time on the wizbangs alot of players actually like in systems like this )

I potentially could have rebalenced shadowrun to be more dicey punchy and frantic cause honest to god  I do love the character creation system, i could do that ALL day, making characters in shadowrun is more fun than any other system, but hero just felt comfortable for us and had already built in all the stuff i wanted from the game.

( Also about the speed charts i literally just house rule they only apply for bosses and villains so all players have the same speed and sometimes a super sonic monster will show up and zip around but its an easy fix )
« Last Edit: <08-07-18/1512:46> by drjmoriarity@gmail.com »

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« Reply #34 on: <08-07-18/1507:54> »
What i hope for in a new version is that they take a hint from 5e and streamline alot of this stuff.
Hopefully the next edition fixes alot of the problems with the game... i spent a month learning the rules, played the game with my group and they all were so frustrated with the combat and learning the rules that we all just moved the game over to hero system and used the shadowrun books as lore and econamy and equiptment and critter guide...

Good for you!

As long as you are having fun, that is all that matters.  And at least you can say you actually gave them a try.

Me, I'm still holding out hope for an edition of Shadowrun that is worth spending money on.  I've not paid into a franchise that had such a bad track record over multiple editions before.  I'm hoping 6th will fix that, whether is comes this year or five from now.
  My hope from a 6th edition would be that they take hints from D&D 5e's success and streamline alot of the chunkier parts of shadowrun and add in some more wizbangs and optional rules to farther customize your game.
Oh and i hope they go back to the retro futurism of the 1980s aesthetic in the original ( Pink Mohawks all the way )

Mirikon

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« Reply #35 on: <08-07-18/1539:01> »
Ugh, no. I hate, hate, HATE D&D 5e for how it basically put training wheels on everything and never takes them off. Give me 3.X any day.

Same with Shadowrun. Give me 4e over 5e any day. I LIKE the complexity and the options for customization. In 4e, archetypes were essentially guidelines, and you had a wide variety in how you went about things. It was possible to be more than one role, which was good for groups that didn't have 5-7 people needed to cover basic roles. In 5e, the Priority system, return of cyberdecks and other such things make for de facto class structures you have to abide by.

Go back to Point Buy, and kill off the karma system of exploding costs in favor of a fixed cost per rank. And the 'simplified' weapon and vehicle customization rules can die in a fire, preferably one used to reforge the 4e customization rules.

But seriously, the reason for D&D 5e's 'success' is that it wasn't D&D 4e, which was a radical and complete departure from D&D as people knew it, and rightly panned as the WoW edition. Well balanced combat system, but it was actively craptacular at everything else. Being better than D&D 4e was so low a bar that the most unethical politician could still have higher standards.
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« Reply #36 on: <08-07-18/1553:49> »
Ugh, no. I hate, hate, HATE D&D 5e for how it basically put training wheels on everything and never takes them off. Give me 3.X any day.

Same with Shadowrun. Give me 4e over 5e any day. I LIKE the complexity and the options for customization. In 4e, archetypes were essentially guidelines, and you had a wide variety in how you went about things. It was possible to be more than one role, which was good for groups that didn't have 5-7 people needed to cover basic roles. In 5e, the Priority system, return of cyberdecks and other such things make for de facto class structures you have to abide by.

Go back to Point Buy, and kill off the karma system of exploding costs in favor of a fixed cost per rank. And the 'simplified' weapon and vehicle customization rules can die in a fire, preferably one used to reforge the 4e customization rules.

But seriously, the reason for D&D 5e's 'success' is that it wasn't D&D 4e, which was a radical and complete departure from D&D as people knew it, and rightly panned as the WoW edition. Well balanced combat system, but it was actively craptacular at everything else. Being better than D&D 4e was so low a bar that the most unethical politician could still have higher standards.

I disagree, Once you get into 5e and explore its system a bit more intimately it is faster and more punchy than 3.X games, the changes were a giant step toward making the game more slick and efficient.
Plus the game is very customization, with its core classes it is able to simulate any character concept with a its archetypes system, what 3.X systems need to create 400 new classes for 5e has managed to do with only 10 classes, a rogue can be a charming thief of a fearless acrobat with the right tweaks and no need to invent a whole thief and acrobat class.
Plus the book is full of optional rules that help customize your game even farther and take those training wheels off, the extreme damage rules and such can make for some very lethal and dangerous situations in which id argue that pathfinder baby-sits the players and makes them feel too safe with its dieing mechanic verses 5e's death saves.

And this is the opinion of a table top veteran of 15 years playing every system under the sun no matter how complicated or overwhelming they may seem. Sometimes it takes experience to see the value in a more streamlined and elegantly made system. And it never hurts to have a change of pace, systems like savage worlds are incredibly floppy and loose on rules vs something like shadowrun or herosystem but I play a little bit of everything  based on what i am feeling at the time.

what i dislike about 3.X systems are things like the gear treadmill.

GLD

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« Reply #37 on: <08-07-18/1605:26> »
D&D 5E has it's charms. Simple and easy to set up. Fast moving. The Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic is really flexible, so you don't need to know a million different situational modifiers.

But what I really like about 5E over 3.X (I still play both, mind you) is that it shrunk the numbers. When a character levels up, they are rewarded with greater versatility rather than just bigger numbers, which is more tactically interesting and fun to play. Like, if I'm a martial character, I get more options in a turn than just hit a guy with my strongest weapon. And the target numbers, AC and attack bonus, don't really change by much than a factor of 5 from level 1 to 20. Thst always feels more real to me. I never liked how in 3.X, a guy no more than 5 levels below you doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of even touching you. Whereas in 5E, I've beaten guys way above my level through clever strategy and a lot of luck.

5E is beautiful in its simplicity and there are actually plenty of optional rules out there to increase the complexity of you so desire it. It is a well made game, but obviously it's not for everybody. And some may take this as a point of derision, but I think it's a compliment. It's a great game for kids and noobs. If I wanna play with my little cousins, nieces and nephews, friends that are new to the hobby, or with my dad that hasn't played D&D since 2nd Edition, I can do that. I can do it very easily, with little time explaining the mechanics.

 3.X is more fun to build a unique character, tweak and customize it to your heart's content. But when it comes time to actually play the game, 5E takes it for me.

There is a place in this community for everything. Your mechanical behemoths like Shadowrun and your straightforward storytelling games like D&D 5. I play and appreciate both.

Way off topic, sorry y'all. I just think 5E is unfairly derided sometimes.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #38 on: <08-07-18/1608:30> »
I agree with you on both cases.
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Reaver

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« Reply #39 on: <08-07-18/1659:23> »
Sadly, DnD 4e killed the franchise for me.  My group moved away from 4e right after Paizo released Pathfinder, and that's what we moved to. I've seen the 5e books, but I have no interest in even opening one of them due to how they totally fucked 4e....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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Marcus

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« Reply #40 on: <08-07-18/1713:50> »
when you gotta shoot a guy 10 times to kill him and you have to do opposed die rolls every time and it just made the combat not flow very well.

You guys are doing something wrong. Are you rolling for damage or something? Shadowrun combat compared to heroes is 9 time out of 10 more lethal and much faster. If you shot someone ten times in SR you have missed about the system. Heroes combat includes a lot of inherent and system dictated recovery. SR is fast and final, if that's not what your experiencing then you have made mistake in how you are executing it.
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Nephilim

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« Reply #41 on: <08-07-18/1721:04> »
D&D 5E has it's charms. Simple and easy to set up. Fast moving. The Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic is really flexible, so you don't need to know a million different situational modifiers.

But what I really like about 5E over 3.X (I still play both, mind you) is that it shrunk the numbers. When a character levels up, they are rewarded with greater versatility rather than just bigger numbers, which is more tactically interesting and fun to play. Like, if I'm a martial character, I get more options in a turn than just hit a guy with my strongest weapon. And the target numbers, AC and attack bonus, don't really change by much than a factor of 5 from level 1 to 20. Thst always feels more real to me. I never liked how in 3.X, a guy no more than 5 levels below you doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of even touching you. Whereas in 5E, I've beaten guys way above my level through clever strategy and a lot of luck.

5E is beautiful in its simplicity and there are actually plenty of optional rules out there to increase the complexity of you so desire it. It is a well made game, but obviously it's not for everybody. And some may take this as a point of derision, but I think it's a compliment. It's a great game for kids and noobs. If I wanna play with my little cousins, nieces and nephews, friends that are new to the hobby, or with my dad that hasn't played D&D since 2nd Edition, I can do that. I can do it very easily, with little time explaining the mechanics.

 3.X is more fun to build a unique character, tweak and customize it to your heart's content. But when it comes time to actually play the game, 5E takes it for me.

There is a place in this community for everything. Your mechanical behemoths like Shadowrun and your straightforward storytelling games like D&D 5. I play and appreciate both.

Way off topic, sorry y'all. I just think 5E is unfairly derided sometimes.

I'd pretty much agree with this. I do/have played both systems, and as someone who can get waaaay into crunch/optimization if I want 3.X was a dream, where you could customize literally anything you want. The problems here are intimidating complexity that makes new players hesitant, the difficulty of scaling between new characters and experienced, optimized characters, and the sheer, massive piles of cheese that 3.X produced.

I find 5th to be an amazingly simple, easy to learn and direct system that's a fantastic system for first time tabletop players while still having a remarkable amount of depth for those of us that enjoy that. The benefit of the more limited scaling is that while there's certainly a difference between optimized and non-optimized  characters it's not the orders upon orders of magnitude that could crop up in 3.X.

Sadly, DnD 4e killed the franchise for me.  My group moved away from 4e right after Paizo released Pathfinder, and that's what we moved to. I've seen the 5e books, but I have no interest in even opening one of them due to how they totally fucked 4e....

I definitely get that, I walked away from D&D midway through 4th (I actually went and played Shadowrun pretty much exclusively for a few years  ;D.) I was myself hesitant to try 5th after the disappointment of 4th, but I'd encourage you to give it a whirl sometime. IMO it preserves the better parts of 3rd while tamping down on the more ridiculous/out of control aspects of it, and repackages it on top of a remarkably simple and elegant system.

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« Reply #42 on: <08-07-18/1741:42> »
Sadly, DnD 4e killed the franchise for me.  My group moved away from 4e right after Paizo released Pathfinder, and that's what we moved to. I've seen the 5e books, but I have no interest in even opening one of them due to how they totally fucked 4e....
Same, Pathfinder became my go to for D&D for years. And I was really wary of 5e for about two years after it's launch, but a friend gave the core book as a gift. I decided to give it a shot and found it quite enjoyable.

It feels like a huge apology for 4e and if anything, reminds me of a super slick, refined 2e, along with a few lessons learned in 3.X.

GLD

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« Reply #43 on: <08-07-18/1747:01> »
when you gotta shoot a guy 10 times to kill him and you have to do opposed die rolls every time and it just made the combat not flow very well.

You guys are doing something wrong. Are you rolling for damage or something? Shadowrun combat compared to heroes is 9 time out of 10 more lethal and much faster. If you shot someone ten times in SR you have missed about the system. Heroes combat includes a lot of inherent and system dictated recovery. SR is fast and final, if that's not what your experiencing then you have made mistake in how you are executing it.
He's exaggerating/referencing a specific fight wherein a guy rolled absurdly well on armor checks, over and over again. I'm in the same game as him.

The lethality and speed of Hero is dependent on a lot of things. Because it's much more of a toolkit than a full game, making it just as dicey as Shadowrun is pretty easy. Just restrict defensive powers and make the purchaseable armour less powerful than the guns and you're golden.

Marcus

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« Reply #44 on: <08-07-18/1748:25> »
4e broke plenty of rules, vansen spellcasting probably being the biggest. But it's the only serious attempt to making a remotely balanced version of D&D and character portal-able version of D&D, concept that D&D struggled with from day 1, and have been utterly ignored in 5th. I went back and watched Matthew Colville's making a fighter in every edition of D&D. To me looking at the progression D&D from tactical war game to modern RPG, 4th hit closest to home in terms of logic progression. It pulled concepts developed the in the MMO industry into the table top parlins, it codified a lot of concepts. Skill challenges, Power Sources, Monster Types (Lurkers, Brutes, Soldiers, Artillery), Defined named party Roles (Strikers, Tanks, Leaders, Controllers), it redefined the save vs Death Mechanic into an acceptable modern form, it redefined adventure construction encounters, skill challenges, combo-challenges, shorts rests, long rests, downtime activities. The creation of healing surges lead to develop expending hit dice for recovery, defined DPR, it reversed so much of what defined negatively in the past editions into positives (-2 or -3 if you didn't proficiency become a bonus if you did). The concepts or ritual magic, magic item creation, codified magic item progression and usage were all well defined and level linked to enforce some level balance. Play tiers, and scaling economies based upon those tiers (See gold coin, Platinum coins and astral diamonds). It was aggressively updated, with codified with living errata documents and a system for purposing changes.  It created a structure for increased drama in an encounter with introduction of the bloody mechanic, and creating triggers that were activated by that mechanic. Finally it gave D&D the easiest encounter adventure construction method to date. Making 4th adventure was as hard falling off a log, there a literally a button you could press on the online tool that would do for you, complete with everything.

It failed in a couple key places. One the online table top. Right from the beginning 4th was always intended to be paired with an online way of Running 4th a means to help players be able to solve the distance and time issues. That failure and that fact that it was never correct b/c some poor sod killed his wife and ate .45 is a truly tragic, both for them and game itself. Next 4th was never very good at helping the player imagine the other half the ability. How does the power look? Does look for each character? Do you recognize this power when your character sees it? those meta concepts general well defined in Pathfinder didn't carry well into 4th. Finally mechanically the stun and daze mechanics were too common, and trivialized combat.
 
5th is simple and there is beauty in simplicity, we are getting to there point where there enough diversity to begin to make interesting. I agree it can feel kind dumbed down at times. But it's well written. It's not being aggressively expanded, which is keeping power creep pretty locked down. They did learn many good lessons from 4th, and they did a better job of selling to the player base. It's feels a lot like AD&D 2nd Rev which was certainly the intent. I don't like it as much 4th. A third level 5th character is as complete a character as a 1st level 4th character, and the DMG does recommend beginning at 3rd level in 5th. But there you go, that's also working as intended.
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