Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: CyberT2000 on <09-07-10/1505:51>

Title: active skillsofts
Post by: CyberT2000 on <09-07-10/1505:51>
Hi,

In SR4a, the price of activelsofts is 10000 nuyen per Level. Isn't it a little too much  ? (it is more than X3 from SR4 to SR4A)

What is the reasonning behind this ?

Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-07-10/1528:40>
The prophecy says: Skills take lots of Karma and time to learn. Even with a limit to 4, cheap skillsoft would inevitably lead to that all cybered characters got themselves Skillwires rating 4 (not difficult) and outsorce all not so important skills to cheap skillsofts.

So, basically, its a gaming balance issue.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: CyberT2000 on <09-07-10/1624:07>
But in the name of game balance, the skillwires became much less attractive.

In my group two characters were interested in skillwires but facing the price they choose not to take them.

At character creation : the price is correct (about half real skill cost but with a essence cost and skillwire system cost) but compared to skill groups it cost too much.

In game : 10000 nuyen per level is way too much even for well paid runners. Even a level 2 skill cost as much as the pay for several runs.

 

Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/1636:35>
Well, to get a level 2 active skill from actually learning it costs 8 Karma, which is several runs as well.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/1645:37>
Well, to get a level 2 active skill from actually learning it costs 8 Karma, which is several runs as well.

Not really even a low karma GM would probally give 4 karma a run. You at least get 1 for surviveing and 1 for doing the run 2 more in a run isn't not that much. My players average 6 to 8 a run, Missions pay at least 4 as much as 6 a run if done well.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: CyberT2000 on <09-07-10/1655:21>
I agree with Casazil.

Another point : skillwires are (in my opinion) proposed for tech oriented characters (street sams, riggers, hackers...) and this type of characters needs money more than karma. The high cost makes skillwires an uninteresting choice for them.

It makes skillswires more interesting to magician/adept types (who needs more karma than money) that for cybered characters.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/1708:21>
Yes, but even skill wires have their limits. The skills max out at 4 and the Skillwires themselves can only hold 2×rating levels of a skill, so they best Skillwire can hold 10 skill levels, which is two 4 level skills and one 2 level skill.

And chances are you're not going to be sammie that relies on skill wires to shoot guns or use unarmed combat...
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/1710:24>
Yes, but even skill wires have their limits. The skills max out at 4 and the Skillwires themselves can only hold 2×rating levels of a skill, so they best Skillwire can hold 10 skill levels, which is two 4 level skills and one 2 level skill.

And chances are you're not going to be sammie that relies on skill wires to shoot guns or use unarmed combat...

Is that true for the expert Skillwires system??
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-07-10/1718:40>
Yes, but even skill wires have their limits. The skills max out at 4 and the Skillwires themselves can only hold 2×rating levels of a skill, so they best Skillwire can hold 10 skill levels, which is two 4 level skills and one 2 level skill.

And chances are you're not going to be sammie that relies on skill wires to shoot guns or use unarmed combat...

Is that true for the expert Skillwires system??

Yes.

They can hold in backup as many as you want though, but only rating x2 can be active.  Changing to a different skill takes a Simple Action.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/1731:53>
Yes, but even skill wires have their limits. The skills max out at 4 and the Skillwires themselves can only hold 2×rating levels of a skill, so they best Skillwire can hold 10 skill levels, which is two 4 level skills and one 2 level skill.

And chances are you're not going to be sammie that relies on skill wires to shoot guns or use unarmed combat...

Is that true for the expert Skillwires system??

Yes.

They can hold in backup as many as you want though, but only rating x2 can be active.  Changing to a different skill takes a Simple Action.

Yeah so then it remains in my opinion then skillwires suck!  ;D
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-07-10/1759:56>
Well, they are software, so there are other avenues of acquisition^^ 

But overall, I tend to agree, outside of a couple types of builds.  In my games I make them quite a bit cheaper, and they still only get used rarely.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/1803:03>
I guess my problem is I like haveing the skills I once made a guy with 20 level 2 skills and mostly average attributes sure i rolled mostly 5 die but hey starting character that works.

A little karma later and I was smokein.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/1822:08>
Well, the skill wires are great for Cyberzombies, Cyborgs and Dolls.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/1849:07>
Now see I have no interest in inrolling in the Dollhouse (loved that series) nor in being a Cyberzombie all magic things want to kill me character. Partail borg maybe but debateable and if I did I still want the skills screw hopeing i know it on chip.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: CyberT2000 on <09-07-10/2358:45>
I'll probably make the active skillsoft cheaper (like 5000 nuyen per rank) in my campaign to make them more interesting.

will there be an official word on the topic ?
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0105:42>
Is that true for the expert Skillwires system??

The prophecy says, the ESS only allows you to use Edge in tests done with skillwired skills.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Mäx on <09-08-10/0141:55>
Not really even a low karma GM would probally give 4 karma a run. You at least get 1 for surviveing and 1 for doing the run 2 more in a run isn't not that much. My players average 6 to 8 a run, Missions pay at least 4 as much as 6 a run if done well.
Considering that a point of karma is worth 2500¥ so if GM is interested on balance the run should IMHO pay atleast that much per point of karma it gives, so 8karma run pays 20k¥.
Oh look at that one run to get the skillsoft too.
Or you could just pirate the skillsoft at 1000¥ per rating.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0210:50>
I am still not convinced that Skillsofts are even piratable, since they are never mentioned in any of the software tables. Sure, they would degrade, but even that can be circumvented...
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: MJBurrage on <09-08-10/0224:57>
As noted by others, the cost increase was a game balance fix.  In general I agree that it was needed, but wish they had used a non-linear fix (SR4 seems afraid of math).

A cost of 2500 × Rating2 would give:
Rating   Cost
  1  2500
  210000
  322500
  440000
  562500
  690000
I know that Rating 5 & 6 are not allowed officially, but make them expensive enough, and they become more balanced.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Mäx on <09-08-10/0237:02>
I am still not convinced that Skillsofts are even piratable, since they are never mentioned in any of the software tables. Sure, they would degrade, but even that can be circumvented...
Why wouldn't they be, skillsoft is a software just like anything else.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-08-10/0318:51>
FastJack: 8 Karma for a few Missions?!?!?  :o You have the cheapest GM to ever to crack open a book of Shadowrun

CyberT2000: I've been playing Shadowrun since Microsoft owned it... Well, they still got the video games but you know what I mean. This was definitely needed in terms of balance issues since 2nd Edition. You gotta learn to think outside of the box. Hackers and Mages alone can make TONS of Nuyen on the side to easily afford this stuff for themselves or other members of their group. Hell, a Mage with the Catalog and Fix spells could walk into a Junkyard, bribe the guys there to let you take some junk, find broken but really expensive stuff, insta-fix it, re-sell it on the black market. A Hacker could forge counterfeit Nuyen (It's risky.... BUT YOUR MAKING MONEY FROM NOTHING!  :D) Hell, even a starting hacker could start out as a Car Thief and even marked down at 30% from the street value, your still making 1,000's of nuyen!!! There is no way you can complain about prices of anything in this game!  ;D
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/0610:51>
Now see I have no interest in inrolling in the Dollhouse (loved that series) nor in being a Cyberzombie all magic things want to kill me character. Partail borg maybe but debateable and if I did I still want the skills screw hopeing i know it on chip.
La la la laaaa
La la la la laaa laaaa

Super creepy theme song.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/0927:26>
FastJack: 8 Karma for a few Missions?!?!?  :o You have the cheapest GM to ever to crack open a book of Shadowrun
Nah, just the group I played with usually don't generate much on the Individidual karma awards... :P
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Casazil on <09-08-10/1647:00>
CyberT2000: I've been playing Shadowrun since Microsoft owned it... Well, they still got the video games but you know what I mean.

Point of interest to the best of my knowledge Micro$oft ONLY EVER owned the elecronic rights thats it the rest was owned by the Wiesman's in some form or another till I think they sold it to TOPS.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-08-10/2023:04>

Point of interest to the best of my knowledge Micro$oft ONLY EVER owned the elecronic rights thats it the rest was owned by the Wiesman's in some form or another till I think they sold it to TOPS.
Hate to burst your bubble, but who do you think bought out FASA back in the day?  :) (Google it)
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Wayfinder on <09-08-10/2345:15>
Having been a rabid fan of Shadowrun during the demise of Fasa. I can say that all the official announcements had Microsoft buying ONLY the Fasa Interactive portion of the company. Thus leaving the future of the print lines in Limbo for several months until finally being licensed out. It was a very scary time because there was a very real threat that the line would die with the implosion of Fasa.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-09-10/0016:39>
Either way, I know Microsoft only had the rights to publish games  ;D Let's get this topic back on track since we've hi-jacked it enough.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Casazil on <09-09-10/0044:45>

Point of interest to the best of my knowledge Micro$oft ONLY EVER owned the elecronic rights thats it the rest was owned by the Wiesman's in some form or another till I think they sold it to TOPS.
Hate to burst your bubble, but who do you think bought out FASA back in the day?  :) (Google it)

M$ bought the electroinc rights the company FASA Ownership involved the elder Wiseman who then sold the BT SR and i think ED licences to his Son who started Wizkids then he merged ?? with tops then sold out right to tops and started another company which I think now owns the electronic rights.

NO I can't say for certin but that is the basics as I understand them.

 During this time SR BT and ED were licenced to various companies to produce.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Caine Hazen on <09-09-10/0947:14>
MS founded and continued FASA Interactive (FASA Studio), which is how they ended up with all of the electronic rights and full rights on Crimson Skies (the only game line fully sold to MS). Wizkids (licensed to FanPro) and then TOPPS ended up with the publishing rights for the other aspects of Shadowrun and Battletech.  MS at not time ever ended up with all the publishing rights to Shadowrun...
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-09-10/0951:31>
I guess the history behind Shadowrun was more confusing then I thought...  ???
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-09-10/0953:25>
It's mostly the FASA implosion that mucked all their lines up.

I really enjoyed their Renegade Legion set of games.  Fun and quick tactical far future combat games.  Haven't played the RPG based upon it, yet.  Wouldn't mind doing that.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Casazil on <09-09-10/1648:29>
I guess the history behind Shadowrun was more confusing then I thought...  ???

Well IT IS Shadowrun  ;)
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: 1 on <09-09-10/2315:38>
Back on topic: Something to think about is that skillwires let you spend both karma AND nuyen on skills. Some people talk as if it moves all the skill building to nuyen when what it does is give you a choice.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Casazil on <09-10-10/0544:55>
Yes it is a choice but my issue is the cost nuyen and essence I'd rather just pay karma.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: FastJack on <09-10-10/0914:53>
Even back in previous editions, I didn't use skillwires much for my characters. I always thought they'd want to have the actual skills and reserved the skillsofts for etiquette/first aid/knowledge skills.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Muspellsheimr on <09-13-10/0447:35>
The reason for the cost increase to Activesofts in the Anniversary printing was because Skillwires where, put simply, stupidly overpowering, and many people - myself in particular, where very vocal about this on the Dumpshock forums.

The current issue is that the cost increase greatly restricts access to the Activesofts, but does not actually address the problem with Skillwires.



I would advise to anyone looking for a change to reduce the cost of Activesofts to Rating x 2,500 Nuyen, and change the functionality of Skillwires to a fixed dice pool (opposed to ranks in a skill, as it currently works) equal to 2 + the Rating of the Activesoft.

Further, Skillwires should be limited to skills linked to a Physical attribute, with another system used for skills linked to Mental attributes. Unfortunately, I have not yet developed rules for this divide yet.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: CyberT2000 on <09-13-10/1101:56>
This idea is very interesting.

I'll discuss this with my players to create a houserule for our group (with maybe 3 + rating to simulate an average attribute).

Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Da_Prince on <09-14-10/0658:48>
The reason for the cost increase to Activesofts in the Anniversary printing was because Skillwires where, put simply, stupidly overpowering, and many people - myself in particular, where very vocal about this on the Dumpshock forums.

The current issue is that the cost increase greatly restricts access to the Activesofts, but does not actually address the problem with Skillwires.

I would advise to anyone looking for a change to reduce the cost of Activesofts to Rating x 2,500 Nuyen, and change the functionality of Skillwires to a fixed dice pool (opposed to ranks in a skill, as it currently works) equal to 2 + the Rating of the Activesoft.

Further, Skillwires should be limited to skills linked to a Physical attribute, with another system used for skills linked to Mental attributes. Unfortunately, I have not yet developed rules for this divide yet.


Oh, I like that! Especially the idea that it's 3+ skill dice rolled. Skillwires became very popular in my group recently. I'm just waiting for that one elf with agility 7 plus muscle toner 3 and lots of rating 4 combat skills.  :-\   

Still, I also think 10K per rating is too expensive!

Da P.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Medicineman on <09-14-10/0750:09>
Still, I also think 10K per rating is too expensive!

same here.
my 3rd SR4 Group I'm playing in has the same Problem .We have 2 (maybe 3) chars with either Move-By-Wire or Skillwires.
Our Solution:  by one Skillchip with a skill everybody uses (Infiltration f.E.)and copy it 3 times while sharing the cost for original and copies

with an original Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: LFG on <09-14-10/1754:06>
I think building in some of the drawbacks listed in Unwired would have been a much better way to balance them.  I mean would instant Pistol 3 from a activesoft be avaiable without restrictions? Say for example the Pistol 3 keyed to not shooting Knight Errant or Lone Star.
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: Walks Through Walls on <09-20-10/2135:17>
I think the issue is that as some one stated above that now skills can be bought, and karma spent on them.

Yes skillwires takes essence for the initial system, but after that money buys skills. If you buy the skills that only matter if you succeed not how many successes and have a decent stat to go with it you can literally become a jack(or Jill) of all trades. Then you spend your karma on the skills where the number of successes matter and you are suddenly able to increase your characters scope.

Or better yet spend the karma on your attributes so that even with only a level 4 skill you are around 8-10 dice and presto you have power.


The other problem that cheap activesofts creates is the oh we need this skill for the job run down to the local Radio Hack and buy the skillsoft and add in my attribute that I max out and I am suddenly as good at it as your average person in the field. They have skill I have the raw attribute

Another option is buy the activesofts for skills that you can't default on.

I'm not saying the high price was the right way to try and solve the problem, but I think these are some of the reasons behind the price increase
Title: Re: active skillsofts
Post by: DarkLloyd on <09-26-10/1452:03>
Yes skillwires takes essence for the initial system, but after that money buys skills. If you buy the skills that only matter if you succeed not how many successes and have a decent stat to go with it you can literally become a jack(or Jill) of all trades. Then you spend your karma on the skills where the number of successes matter and you are suddenly able to increase your characters scope.

Sooo, you want More min/maxed monsters that are good at just one thing? So when one or two of your players don't show up to a game it has to be called because the needed skills are no longer there?!! Interesting.

Quote
Or better yet spend the karma on your attributes so that even with only a level 4 skill you are around 8-10 dice and presto you have power.

10 dice is an average of 3 to 4(maybe) sucsesses. That is Power to Only the Basest of NPCs.

Quote
The other problem that cheap activesofts creates is the oh we need this skill for the job run down to the local Radio Hack and buy the skillsoft and add in my attribute that I max out and I am suddenly as good at it as your average person in the field. They have skill I have the raw attribute.

Which is Exactly why they were created by the Corps in the first place.... A Cheap labor force. It changed the face of the sixth world, read Unwired.

Quote
Another option is buy the activesofts for skills that you can't default on.

Uhm, Yeah. That's kind of the point.