As for the matrix search ... I feel that is a case where wites got crossed and really should just be a simple test that takes longer than a single action
Should 10 hits on a legwork roll via the Matrix turn up the same value of information as 10 hits on a legwork roll via a contact? [...]I would say absolutely not, a matrix search should never be a simple replacement for legwork. It should only augment legwork. A matrix search doesn't represent much more than a Google search which can uncover quite a bit, but is still no replacement for actually talking to people. There should always be information that is not available online. That's why published legwork tables have different thresholds for different information and not all of it is available via the matrix
EDIT: also to add.. getting deep dark secrets from the matrix should be a matrix run involving getting inside a defended host and not a search at all
[...] However, if matrix search is treated as an extended test with a zero threshold then even someone with such a small dice pool as 10 dice will pretty much automatically find deeply hidden secret information that only a select few know about and that is actively being erased from the matrix. [...]No ... not really. If it is a deep dark secret that has been erased from matrix you could perform a matrix search for years and never find it. A search will never find anything that has been deleted or hidden behind any kind of firewall out of the public realm ... that is what electronic forensics and hacking are for
Just one example... you may be able to see things find out about a person from social media post or public matrix posts but unless you hack them you would not ever gain access to their private text messages
Contacts... | Data Search... | Information |
0 | 0 | He is the new host of Late Night Seattle? |
1 | 3 | I think he's an ork businessman |
2 | 6 | He runs some businesses in the Underground |
3 | 10 | He's one of the richest businessmen in the Underground |
4 | 18 | He's a major supporter of the Ork Underground. Really popular down there. Does a lot for the community. |
5 | - | He's come into a lot of extra money lately, but he's just pouring it into the rebuilding effort. |
1. As per SR6 page 183, Matrix Search is an Extended Test with an interval of 10 minutes and no pre-defined thresholdBut is it...??
[Skill] + [Linked Attribute] ([Threshold], [Interval]) Extended test
Astral + Intuition (5, 1 hour) Extended test
Charisma + Magic (10 – target’s Essence, 1 minute) Extended test
Magic + Intuition (5, 10 minutes) Extended test
Engineering + Logic (10, 1 hour) Extended test
Engineering + Agility (lock rating x 2, 1 combat round) Extended test
([illegal or legal]) [Skill] + [Attribute] ([Time])
(legal) Electronics + Logic (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic (Major)
(legal) Electronics + Intuition (0, 10 minutes) Extended test
or perhaps like this: (legal) Electronics + Intuition (10 minutes) Extended test
(legal) Electronics + Intuition (Extended, 10 minutes)
or perhaps like this: (legal) Electronics + Intuition (10 minutes)
(legal) Electronics + Intuition (Extended, 10 Minutes)
Threshold 1: General Knowledge or Public Information (Time: 1 minute)
Threshold 3: Limited Interest or Not Publicized Information (Time: 30 minutes)
Threshold 6: Hidden or Actively Hunted and Erased Information (Time: 12 hours)
Threshold N/A (require breaking into a hosts): Protected or Secret Information
(8+7+6+5 ... = 26+ dice)
(13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5 ... = 81+ dice)
(16+15+14+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5 ... = 126+ dice)
Yes, it is.1. As per SR6 page 183, Matrix Search is an Extended Test with an interval of 10 minutes and no pre-defined thresholdBut is it...??
Or Matrix Search does have a threshold and it varies by what your searching for and is not open ended but the author (that's me in case you didn't know ;) )did know or have access to legwork thresholds at the time of writing it so it appears to be open ended.Is this something that should be posted to the errata thread, then?
Regardless Matrix Search was never meant to be an opened ended answer that just takes a matter of time to unearth all answers.
Yes, it is.1. As per SR6 page 183, Matrix Search is an Extended Test with an interval of 10 minutes and no pre-defined thresholdBut is it...??
We already know that Matrix Search and Probe do not follow the usual guidelines for extended tests on page 36, but it clearly says "Extended" in the description, thus it is an extended test. So, let's move past this and discuss what is and what is not public information instead.Or Matrix Search does have a threshold and it varies by what your searching for and is not open ended but the author (that's me in case you didn't know ;) )did know or have access to legwork thresholds at the time of writing it so it appears to be open ended.Is this something that should be posted to the errata thread, then?
Regardless Matrix Search was never meant to be an opened ended answer that just takes a matter of time to unearth all answers.
For now, I think this discussion is still valid as I do not see the "publicly accessible grid" parameter of Matrix Search to change even if the type of action changes.
I think it's more of an FAQ situation since there is nothing to really errata since we are not talking about how to use it .. just what you can find with it.That's fair. I definitely think an FAQ or Designer's Notes document is a good idea in addition to Errata. One deals with straight up incorrect information, the other deals with expanding upon RAI.
The publically acceptable parameter is a very key component to limiting what you can find. The variable threshold should be used to determine how hard it is to find, original intent factored in much higher thresholds than what was ultimately established. Hard to find stuff should take even a good hacker a few hours to dig up. However with the lower thresholds as established in the legwork section makes this almost obsolete...Thanks!
Two possible solutions if you want to change it either limit it to a simple test or use much higher thresholds. Example above in the OP from the 04-01 SRM a matrix search for the best you could find was a threshold of 18!
We already know that Matrix Search and Probe do not follow the usual guidelines for extended tests on page 36...Yes, we do. Now at least.
let's move past this and discuss what is and what is not public information instead.Agreed.
Or Matrix Search does have a threshold and it varies by what your searching for and is not open ended but the author (that's me in case you didn't know ;) )did know or have access to legwork thresholds at the time of writing it so it appears to be open ended.Matrix Search on p. 183 state: The number of hits generated gives you more information regarding the subject. and then it point to the Legwork Results table on p. 50 and this table explicitly state: Note that knowledge of one level comes with knowledge of all the levels with fewer hits which will be read as if the test is open ended :-/
Regardless Matrix Search was never meant to be an opened ended answer that just takes a matter of time to unearth all answers.
Two possible solutions if you want to change it either limit it to a simple test...Matrix Search as a Simple Test House Rule (borrowing game mechanics from SR5 until thresholds and game mechanics for both Probe and Matrix Search will be properly clarified):
Information is: Threshold Time
General Knowledge of Public 1 1 Minute
Limited Interest or Not Publicized 3 30 Minutes
Hidden or Actively Hunted and Erased 6 12 Hours
Protected or Secret N/A N/A
or use much higher thresholds. Example above in the OP from the 04-01 SRM a matrix search for the best you could find was a threshold of 18!Matrix Search as an Extended Test with higher thresholds House Rule (again borrowed the table from SR5 but in this case with x3 thresholds):
Information is: Threshold
General Knowledge of Public 3
Limited Interest or Not Publicized 9
Hidden or Actively Hunted and Erased 18
Protected or Secret N/A
A matrix search doesn't represent much more than a Google search which can uncover quite a bit, but is still no replacement for actually talking to people. There should always be information that is not available online.I have quite different headcanon for what sorts of places deckers look for information on people when they're doing legwork. At my table, they're not just looking at on-the-up-and-up stuff like the Sixth World versions of Facebook and LinkedIn. They're also running down rumours, reading archives of screamsheet writeups that mention the person, gossip sites, news clippings, snippets of paydata for sale on underground sites, dark forums like ShadowLand, etc etc. Reliable? Not at all. Complete? Not remotely.
The Hosaka had sorted a thin store of data and assembled a precis, but it was full of gaps. Some of the material had been print records, reeling smoothly down the screen, too quickly, and Case had had to ask the computer to read them for him. ...
The Hosaka rattled through police reports, corporate espionage records, and news files. Case watched Corto work corporate defectors in Lisbon and Marrakesh, where he seemed to grow obsessed with the idea of betrayal, to loathe the scientists and technicians he bought out for his employers. Drunk, in Singapore, he beat a Russian engineer to death in a hotel and set fire to his room. Next he surfaced in Thailand, as overseer of a heroin factory. Then as enforcer for a California gambling cartel, then as a paid killer in the ruins of Bonn. He robbed a bank in Wichita. The record grew vague, shadowy, the gaps longer.
This approach is fine, but I think we should be clear-eyed about the fact that 6e's RAW doesn't work like this at all. It explicitly puts the information found from Matrix searches on the same footing as the information found from contact-based legwork, right down to the same levels of information for the same numbers of hits. Perhaps that is unintentional and perhaps it needs an errata, but that's what it says right now.
SRM 04-01 "Hiding in the Shadows" has several legwork tables where Contacts and Data Search have separate thresholds. For example, if the runners try to look up information about Johnny Torinni, an NPC in the mission, the table looks like this:
Contacts... Data Search... Information 0 0 He is the new host of Late Night Seattle? 1 3 I think he's an ork businessman 2 6 He runs some businesses in the Underground 3 10 He's one of the richest businessmen in the Underground 4 18 He's a major supporter of the Ork Underground. Really popular down there. Does a lot for the community. 5 - He's come into a lot of extra money lately, but he's just pouring it into the rebuilding effort.
EDIT: also to add.. getting deep dark secrets from the matrix should be a matrix run involving getting inside a defended host and not a search at allSure, but again, for whatever reason, that's not what the current state of the 6e CRB says.
1. As per SR6 page 183, Matrix Search is an Extended Test with an interval of 10 minutes and no pre-defined thresholdTo put my objection more succinctly:
2. Matrix Search is not opposed; any hit on the Extended Test is applied towards an accumulated total
3. Matrix Search states that the Legwork Results table from page 50 should be used "as a general guideline for what is uncovered"
Personal Information:
1. The name, commcode, and picture of a private citizen (for instance, John Smith, a UCAS citizen who works for a non-extraterritorial corporation)
2. The name, commcode, and picture of a corporate citizen (for instance, Jane Smith who works for a AAA rated corporation like Ares Macrotechnology)
3. The name, commcode, and picture of a non-citizen (for instance, ZeroSum, a SIN-less runner who works the shadows in Seattle)
4. The name, commcode, and picture of the Fake SIN used by the character in the previous example
Location Information:
1. The street address of a bar in Chicago
2. What kind of specials the bar serves on a daily basis
3. The fact that the bar remained open during the Chicago Quarantine, but no information about how or why
4. The fact that this particular bar is a common place for Mr Johnsons to meet runner teams
5. The fact that the bar owner is secretly a sentient ghoul, and that he has a soft spot for other sentient infected
Paydata:
1. A file containing conspiracy theories about the current UCAS President
2. Information suggesting that the file is actively being removed from the Matrix, and is getting harder to find
3. Confirmation that the file was compiled by a specific individual
4. Information about who the individual who compiled the file is
5. Specific information about the origin of the file, including specific node/host/VPN and author
Just nu typing in my name in Google and picking one of the top three hits (the first two had the same name but lived at a different location) return information about my address, including zip code, how long I lived at this address, if it's a house or a flat (and in that case which floor or apartment), male or female, if I got any registered companies or not and if so their registered name and unique company id, if I have been in court and if so for what reason (law suits, indictment, convictions) the fact I am married, her full name, my full birth date, days until my next birth day, quick link to send flowers or a gift, my birth place, if I have any registered and listed phone numbers and if so also the number, list of people that recent moved into the area and all but the last digits of my 'SIN'.
All from one page. 5 second search.
So it greatly depends on the individual.It greatly depend on the county the individual is living in...
My real name can get you (through historical results) my high school, university, gaming club and LinkedIn profile, but not my address, phonenumber, court history, marriage or birthday. So it greatly depends on the individual. As such, I do not believe guidelines on what is and what isn't public can be proper, since it still depends on the situation. And given how people already raged at 'these are training time guidelines which you do not have to follow'... -,-
Learn how the world works and how it doesn’t:
The best way to spot something unnatural is to understand what is natural, to better recognize what should not be. The Sixth World is, of course, an immensely complicated and tricky place, where the course of the world operating in its normal way can seem surprising and uncanny. Careful observation, though, will tell you when something is off. Did a flight of pixies throwing trails of glitter just sweep into a nightclub? That’s just the way the world is. Did you see a centaur roaring down I-5 in a Hyundai Shin-Hyung? That’s probably an illusion—Hyundai hasn’t built a centaur-modded version of that model yet. Careful observation always helps.
In the TV series Leverage it seem as if most of their initial legwork in almost all episodes is done by their 'hacker'. Probably via 'matrix search' together together with some elements of hacking.Honestly, I wouldn’t go that route at all as entertainment media treats computer technology as practically magical because far to many people lack any meaningful level of technological literacy. It’s easy for television or movies to make crap up because people don’t know it’s crap. As not only a tech geek but also as a gun guy, I see this happen all the fragging time because people just don’t know how the magic smoke in the scary box or the bang switch on the pew pew pointer actually works.
Lisbeth Salander (Girl with the dragon tattoo) also seem do most of her profiling via excellent 'matrix search' skills together with elements of hacking, her contacts within the hacking community scene and possibly also by stalking her mark, placing recording devices in their home when they are not there and requesting public records from various institutes.
I feel this kinda help out to set the level of Intel one could expect from a skilled decker or technomancer (but probably not from just Matrix Search alone).
Hate to tell you, chummer, but it's not just "don't know it's crap", and it's not just tech and guns. It's pretty much everything, and that includes shows about show business.
Honestly, I wouldnt go that route at all as entertainment media treats computer technology as practically magical because far to many people lack any meaningful level of technological literacy. Its easy for television or movies to make crap up because people dont know its crap. As not only a tech geek but also as a gun guy, I see this happen all the fragging time because people just dont know how the magic smoke in the scary box or the bang switch on the pew pew pointer actually works.