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Jamming Drones Question

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« on: <04-08-18/1244:55> »
Ok so I'm thinking I'm seeing some conflicting paradigms in the rules assumptions regarding Noise.  Like I'm the first ever to notice, right?

So specifically: if you try to deal with hostile drones by jamming them.  How does it even work, from a rules mechanic?

Say the shadowrunner pulls out her trusty directional jammer, points it at the troublemaking drone(s), and pulls the trigger.  What actually happens?  On one hand, apparently nothing... because Noise doesn't affect the distant end only the broadcasting unit.  So in order to "jam a Rigger" out of his drone, you have to catch the RCC not the drone in the Jammer.  Doesn't matter what noise environment the drone is in, except with regards to how it applies to distance-based Noise (SR5 pg 230).  Which is problematic when it's the PC runner trying to jam NPC security drones where the NPC rigger is flat out not present at the scene.

OTOH you might look at the rules on pg 421.  A Jammer with a DR higher than the drone's DR will automatically shut off the drone's wireless functionality with no test required.  Sure the drone's dog brain can still operate, but the Rigger can't remain in control/contact with the drone even with all the Noise Reduction in the world.

The two rules appear to not be able to coexist, as the RCC and several matrix actions are designed to allow a Rigger to combat being jammed out of his remote drone.  Either they're superfluous because you ignore the jamming anyway, or useless because you can't avoid the Drone's wireless functions being disabled.
« Last Edit: <04-08-18/1248:38> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #1 on: <04-08-18/1502:14> »
Communication is a chain - if one link is broken, the whole chain is broken. Therefore it doesn't matter which end you jam, you always take the highest noise penalty on either end as your total noise.
If wireless capability is lost is determined after you apply noise reduction. And a rigger can get a really high amount with the right combination of gear and Electronic Warfare skill.

Jamming mainly works against non-specialist characters and to protect your own gear (wireless on jammer can exempt your own devices from its effect and is therefore ideally suited to stop remote hackers from getting good dice pools against you)
talk think matrix

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <04-08-18/1530:13> »
Communication is a chain - if one link is broken, the whole chain is broken. Therefore it doesn't matter which end you jam, you always take the highest noise penalty on either end as your total noise.

Quote from: SR5 pg 230: Noise
To figure out how noise is affecting you, start with
the noise level from real-world distance to your target
and add the noise level from any other applicable situations,
then subtract any noise reduction you are using.

Hrm.  It appears that you could also argue that you add up all noise affecting both ends based on the actual rule, although I'm sure I've seen clarifications that you're not supposed to.  I'd have to agree that in light of how the rule is actually worded, it makes just as much/little sense to interpret it at take the highest between the two rather than ignore the Noise in the environment at the distant end.  If I'm in a Rating 4 Noise zone, hacking a target in another sprawl located within a rating 6 Noise zone, I'd add distance plus 6 rather than distance plus 4?  Even though the rule "appears" to say distance plus 6 plus 4?


Quote
If wireless capability is lost is determined after you apply noise reduction. And a rigger can get a really high amount with the right combination of gear and Electronic Warfare skill.

I'd love for you to be right, but I don't think the rules agree?

Quote from: SR5 pg 421: Wireless Bonuses
If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater
than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance,
the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see
Noise, p. 230).


So if there's a Noise Rating > Device Rating, Device loses wireless functionality.  Very explicit; it literally could not be clearer.  Doesn't say "uncompensated noise".. it's saying if the raw Noise exceeds DR, the device is done (wirelessly).  Which makes sense from a jamming standpoint, but less so from a spam standpoint.  Unfortunately the rules don't differentiate between types of noise, necessitating house rules I suppose.  I suppose one could say the definitive rules on Noise (pg 23) trump the badly worded rules on 421.  And the "specific trumps general" argument for rules on page 421 only applies to wireless bonuses, and so one could say communication is not a "wireless bonus" but a basic function.  But then that puts jamming back into an odd place.  What's the point of jamming a commlink if you can't stop it from making calls.

Quote
Jamming mainly works against non-specialist characters and to protect your own gear (wireless on jammer can exempt your own devices from its effect and is therefore ideally suited to stop remote hackers from getting good dice pools against you)

Yeah with the Jammer being a point-and-click device with no skill use involved and capping out at rating 6 there does seem to be a hole.  A Transys Avalon (or any DR6 commlink) is immune to jamming, which doesn't feel right.  Would you expect that one should be able to use the Jam Signals matrix action to enhance the NR kicked out by a Jammer?  How about just getting cute and directing two jamming devices at the target to double the NR?
« Last Edit: <04-08-18/1550:18> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #3 on: <04-08-18/1732:32> »
The rules sadly don't know the word effective or net noise rating. Noise rating is always preexisting noise minus noise reduction:
p. 230
"Noise can be reduced with noise reduction, which can be provided by a few different pieces of hardware and software (see Street Gear, p. 416).[...]"
"To figure out how noise is affecting you, start with the noise level from real-world distance to your target and add the noise level from any other applicable situations, then subtract any noise reduction you are using. Any positive noise level you have left over is a negative dice pool modifier to your actions. Noise never applies to defense or resistance tests."

It may not be spelled out as such, but wireless shut down should always occur after comparing it to net noise - otherwise what would be the point?

As for stacking: You can stack noise from different sources, but I personally wouldn't allow same sources to stack, just as you can't stack the same spell again and again.
« Last Edit: <04-08-18/1734:35> by Jack_Spade »
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex