[Youneko]

Well, I got a problem with Astral Perception. A friend and I clearly have different ideas on how it works. We had a discussion yet could not convince each other. So, the question is, when a mage(or adepts with appropriate power) with no ability to look in darkness switches to Astral perception, would she see the intangible shadows that she could not see physically? If darkness is just a lack of light (so astral perception could ignore it), how about thermal smoke grenades? Since the wall could stop the sight of a mage, little dust in air seems like exactly the same thing.

Another question is, will the Astral perception test modified by situation factors, especially the distance? It seems weird if a mage standing on the top of Wuxing skytower and open her astral eyes, covering all the details in Astral plane and even shadows of physical plane. If there is a test needed, what is the appropriate skill used here? Assensing or Perception? If it is the former, why does a Watcher have a Perception skill?

Hope someone may help

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yeah there's no such thing as darkness or smoke on the astral plane, so those become irrelevant.  And switching to astral perception in conditions that make for poor visibility in the mundane world can indeed be very advantageous.  But keep some restrictions in mind:

The things you "see" in astral space aren't the same things you see in the physical world.  Yes living things are going to be revealed, but things like drones and equipment are virtually invisible in the astral as they lack auras.  You see living things, magical things, and emotions/objects with emotional imprints.  The rigger's favorite drone might show up on the astral because he's emotionally bonded to it like a pet.. but he corp security's drone #247574 isn't especially important to anyone.

Don't forget the blanket -2 dice for mundane actions whilst astrally perceiving.  Your senses are "off" when it comes to interacting with the physical world.

Edit: Oh yeah, and Background Counts.  If your GM is using them properly, they should be showing up at least at low levels quite often.  (your typical firefight is enough to trigger a BGC through fear/panic of the participants and/or civilian observers).

[ShadowcatX]

Drones will show up in the same way you can see a wall, it's just they are dark shapes, with no emotion or light of their own. You may not clearly tell the difference between a drone and a desk, but you will see something there.

And background counts is a horrible thing in RAW, second only to Matrix perception and should be avoided just about as much.

[SunRunner]

They are pretty clear in the rules, Astral perception has nothing to do with your eyes. You can literally pluck your eye balls out with a spoon and get along just fine with Astral perception. Its why the blind disadvantage is almost worthless for awakened characters. Smoke and lighting have no effect on astral perception, at one point FAB smoke grenades which deployed an awakened bacteria cloud existed that could smoke astral perception but not sure if that is in 5th. You also see inanimate objects they are just pale washed out reflections of themselves. You cant read printed text or AR displays or screens with astral perception.

The Assensing skill is Astral Perception so any time your trying to get information about your surroundings with astral perception you use the assensing skill. It works just like perception and is subject to all the same modifiers as normal perception. Just remember that alot of stuff like lighting and mundane smoke and dust has no effect on it.

[SpellBinder]

Smoke will have an effect on astral perception, as would rain and fog.  These are all a physical particulate suspended in the air (or descending, in the case of rain), and thus will have a shadow in the astral just like any other physical object.  Maybe not as effective there as in the physical, trying to hide an aura would be like a spotlight in the fog, but it's still there.

As for watchers and the Perception skill, don't forget they can Manifest to interact with the physical world.  I'd say this is where regular Perception comes into play, where the watcher can potentially notice details in the physical that are otherwise completely obscured in the astral (like something behind a window).

[Mirikon]

Drones will show up in the same way you can see a wall, it's just they are dark shapes, with no emotion or light of their own. You may not clearly tell the difference between a drone and a desk, but you will see something there.

Drones USUALLY would be just dark shapes on the astral. However, objects CAN pick up 'echoes' of emotions. A treasured family heirloom, such as great-grandpa's army uniform from when the USA was still a thing. A Babe Ruth autographed baseball that has been passed down through the family. A child's favorite drone that they carry around with them everywhere. That 'lucky' gun that you always take with you, even though there are newer and better out there, because you have fond memories of it.

All of those things can get enough of an echo that they may be visible on the astral. It would never be a full-on aura, but they could be visible. The stronger the feeling associated with the item, the longer people have invested it with that emotion, and the shorter the time it has been out of those people's possession, the stronger that echo will be.

This is also true of the world at large. Looking at the astral in the wake of high emotions is like looking at infrared, and seeing lingering heat traces from where people were standing for a while in an otherwise chilly room. After all, you get a group feeling the same thing, like at a concert, and that is what temporary background counts are made of.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

A thought came to me.

Is there any reason that Perception would be useless in Astral Space?  I mean, the Assensing Skill is pretty much just for interpreting Auras, isn't it?  (SR5 pg 142)

I don't see any reason you wouldn't use Perception even while using Astral Perception in order to pick up on important details amid the mana currents of Astral Space.  If you do happen to spot something interesting, then you'd use Assensing to determine its details.

[Marcus]

A thought came to me.

Is there any reason that Perception would be useless in Astral Space?  I mean, the Assensing Skill is pretty much just for interpreting Auras, isn't it?  (SR5 pg 142)

I don't see any reason you wouldn't use Perception even while using Astral Perception in order to pick up on important details amid the mana currents of Astral Space.  If you do happen to spot something interesting, then you'd use Assensing to determine its details.

Agreed.

[PiXeL01]

Astral space is nothing but auras actually. Even the dull constructions of metahumanity has a very faint aura, so though the description is vague it’s fitting. I’m also fairly certain that just like magic is viewed differently by each user so is Astral Space, tinted by slightly tradition and personality

[SpellBinder]

A thought came to me.

Is there any reason that Perception would be useless in Astral Space?  I mean, the Assensing Skill is pretty much just for interpreting Auras, isn't it?  (SR5 pg 142)

I don't see any reason you wouldn't use Perception even while using Astral Perception in order to pick up on important details amid the mana currents of Astral Space.  If you do happen to spot something interesting, then you'd use Assensing to determine its details.

Well, the important part of what you're looking for in the Astral is generally bright and glowy compared to the rest of the place, so noticing it in that regard is pretty much an automatic.  And there is this part on Astral Perception, the paragraph just before the quoted section on non-living objects:

"Like physical perception, you don’t need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easy to spot). You only need to roll the dice when your target is trying to hide or when you’re trying to observe in detail—then you make an Assensing Test to see what you can see."

When you want to hide a leaf, hide it in a forest.  When you want to hide an aura you mix it in with other auras.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

When you want to hide a leaf, hide it in a forest.  When you want to hide an aura you mix it in with other auras.

Exactly.  If you're using Astral Perception is in some sort of a crowded venue (bar, night club, concert, sporting event, etc) and a NPC has been tailing you and is spying on you, sure you can see its intent with enough hits on an Assensing test.  But feeling the need to assense that particular aura out of everyone else's wouldn't come without getting suspicious about that NPC via hits from a Perception test.

For that matter, I think it makes sense that you can even use stealth in the astral without benefit of the Concealment power.  Granted that trying to sneak past an observer when your aura is the only other major living thing around is as impossible as trying to sneak past someone in an empty, well lit room (while you're on fire)... but if you've got cover to work with (mana currents, BGCs, the hustle and bustle of a busy environment) there's no reason you're unable to attempt to blend in and avoid notice.

[Marcus]

We know dual natured predators exist, and dual natured prey animals exist all though general such critter have some magic defenses. But predators clearly can use stealth to sneak up on their prey, and that means you can sneak in astral as well, there for you need perception to counter that. Assensing while very interesting isn't useful in the sneak vs perception comparison.

[SunRunner]

If your astrally sneaking its Assensing vs Stealth instead. I have always read it as Assensing taking the place of perception with regards to anything having to do with astral space. But that's my take on the rules, its unclear enough that without some input from the Dev's / Errata team, which to my knowledge does not exist, its up to how your table wants to handle it. I have shared how I run things, and I have in general be able to persuade my GM's to that view point. Granted its has not come up a whole lot. Remember that all the descriptions of what is going on in Astral space make it a willy wonka speed tunnel experience in that is all a swirling blend of colors and aura and Assensing is your ability to sort through and collate all of that chaos into usable data.

[Hobbes]

As a GM I'd let someone use either Assensing or Perception to counter Sneak.  Just with different modifiers.  Troll moving through a crowd?  Easy with Perception, difficult with Assensing.  Troll sneaking across a dark space with lots of inanimate objects?  Perception difficult, Assensing easier.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

As a GM I'd let someone use either Assensing or Perception to counter Sneak.  Just with different modifiers.  Troll moving through a crowd?  Easy with Perception, difficult with Assensing.  Troll sneaking across a dark space with lots of inanimate objects?  Perception difficult, Assensing easier.

The rub is that you're allowed to sub in all kinds of skills for a Perception test.  You can roll Sneaking in place of Perception to spot someone else Sneaking, roll Palming in place of Perception to notice someone trying to pick your pockets, etc.  There's no reason this wouldn't still be true just because you have your Astral Perception active.  Assensing isn't mechanically comparable in having this same degree of flexibility, so it's not mechanically the counterpart for Perception in Astral. 

Edit: Although given Perception's inherent flexibility, I suppose the answer to the "Which Skill" conundrum just solved itself.  Use Perception, or sub in Assensing if it's better.  Perception lets you do that.