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Attune Item

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RickDeckard

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« on: <04-11-21/1401:37> »
I can't comprehend the rules for this, can someone help walk me through it?

An Adept wishes to attune his brass knucks.

Step 1: acquire Ritual "Attune Item" for 5 Karma.
Step 2. familiarize with knucks Logic+Armorer (12, 1 week) extended test.
Step 3: cast ritual, which requires a lodge and Ritual Spellcasting+Magic vs. Force*2 opposed test (is this really true for Adepts? Why would an Adept have a lodge and know ritual spellcasting?)
Step 4: pay more Karma (min 5).

Why on Earth would any Adept ever acquire all the prerequisites for this procedure? What if I don't want to be an armorer, can I just get an armorer contact to help me with step 2? And maybe a shaman buddy to help with the ritual?

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <04-11-21/1517:54> »
If you are just looking at making your knucks better in combat you should probably just go for a regular weapon focus instead of attuning it.

SG p. 124 Attune Item (Adept)
Attunement provides no bonus when the item is controlled through an electronic interface (digital, VR, AR, or DNI), nor does it work on the complex magical auras of foci, prepared vessels, or enchanted items.


Why would an Adept have a lodge and know ritual spellcasting?
SG p. 121 Adepts and Rituals
There are various rituals available to the adept, where the adept’s relevant skill or attribute fulfills the role of ritual spellcasting (steps 4 and 5). Examples: Animal Handling for Attune Animal and Imbue; Armorer, Artisan, or Automotive Mechanic for Imbue Item. The gamemaster has final say on what skill the adept can use in substitution of Ritual Spellcasting.


Why on Earth would any Adept ever acquire all the prerequisites for this procedure?
Attuning items are for adept artisans that are already skilled at animal handling or building, repairing and modifying armor, weapon, vehicles, instruments or whatever their focus is at.

For example a bike stunt driver adept skilled at mechanics that attunes his bike to himself in order to increase all its limits (Handling, Speed. ...) or a gunslinger adept skilled at making his own bullets and weapon modifications attuting his revolvers to himself as a way to increase their accuracy.
« Last Edit: <04-11-21/1529:33> by Xenon »

Reaver

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« Reply #2 on: <04-11-21/1528:27> »
going to be honest with you. Attunement is.... Shit.


No really. it is. People seem to think its Something, but it really isn't.

lets go through this.

First off:

page 121
Quote
ADEPTS AND RITUALS
There are various rituals available to the adept, where
the adept’s relevant skill or attribute fulfills the role of
ritual spellcasting
(steps 4 and 5). Examples: Animal
Handling for Attune Animal and Imbue; Armorer, Artisan,
or Automotive Mechanic for Imbue Item. The
gamemaster has final say on what skill the adept can
use in substitution of Ritual Spellcasting.

So at least the adept doesn't actually need Ritual Spellcasting to use a Ritual... yay <sigh>.


The adept needs the ritual "Attune item" - which is an adept ONLY Ritual. (see the red side bar pg 122 SG) Which is a kick in the nuts for a separate reason. (later on)

The First step is to "familiarize" the adept witht he object in question... and is a pretty in-depth thing... much more then just "its made of metal, and I hit shit with it"... it involves an extended test.

page 124
Quote
This involves an appropriate Logic +Technical skill [Mental] (12, 1 week) Extended Test.

In your case, that would be armorer... depending on your mental limit, this should take 2 to 3 weeks to do. Of Course, the adept could also just make himself a set of Knuckles using the B/R rules. And this would also count for this step. Also note that this does NOT cost karma...


ONCE the adept has completed the "Familiarize" step, he now has to "bond" the item..
  The adept can use a technical skill for this test (armorer) and at a minimum force equal to the O.R of the item. (for Knuckles, this is going to be 6 - Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials page 295 CRB)
The Ritual takes (Force) hours to complete (so, for your Knuckles, 6 hours.
After the Ritual completes the Adept must spend Karma as per the Attuned Item Table (sg 124), so in your case 6 -(Modern crafted or mechanical items), UNLESS you decided to craft your own, in which case it would be 5. ( Simple non-mechanical or handcrafted items).

Done.

That's it.

And what do you get for that? Possibly nothing. There is a single line inn all that muck that offers a hint of what you get...

SG 124
Quote
The skill used with the item
must be an active skill relating to a physical attribute. The
attuned item’s limit increase can stack with the adept’s
Enhanced Accuracy power.

what that bonus is, how big it is, or how you determine it, I couldn't find (so I can't help you there)...

AND, you get a whole bunch of caveats:

SG 124

Quote
Attunement provides no bonus when the item is controlled
through an electronic interface (digital, VR, AR, or
DNI), nor does it work on the complex magical auras of
foci, prepared vessels, or enchanted items. Attunement
provides no bonus to Active Magical skills

So... you can't attune a Foci....
Foci and Attuned items are separate but similar,
You Can't use an Attuned Item in AR/VR/wireless/digitally
You can't use attuned on a Vessel,
You can't attune enchanted items..
Doesn't stack to active magical skills. 


So what CAN you do?

well, with yet ANOTHER Ritual (and Karma) , you can add any of the nifty things on page 132 of SG (the all red page)! Of course that isn't eveything... and GM are encouraged to come up with positive and NEGATIVE traits that can be gained and added... but yea... that's it..


So, why WOULD an adept go down this route when its not really a  weapon foci, and a Weapon foci would be much more useful?. 


Now normally with Ritual Magic, you can get a group of adepts and mages together to help complete the Ritual, with everyone adding to the dice pool....

BUT, Attunement is a Adept Ritual, so it can ONLY be done by the Artisan... No one else can help (this is the  kick in the nuts I mentioned earlier)





« Last Edit: <04-14-21/2335:43> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <04-11-21/1533:46> »
And what do you get for that? Possibly nothing. There is a single line inn all that muck that offers a hint of what you get...
SG p. 124 Attune Item (Adept)
Increase the relevant limit of the item by the initiate grade of the adept using it.

Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <04-11-21/2012:10> »
So.... you have to initiate to get a bonus to your limit.....
Which is Karma...

So why take attunement again?


(Thanks BTW!)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <04-12-21/0255:05> »
So why take attunement again?
Each time you initiate the Handling and Speed of your attuned bike will automatically increase by one...

RickDeckard

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« Reply #6 on: <04-12-21/0425:07> »
And what do you get for that? Possibly nothing. There is a single line inn all that muck that offers a hint of what you get...
SG p. 124 Attune Item (Adept)
Increase the relevant limit of the item by the initiate grade of the adept using it.

This is the reason I want to attune my knucks. I keep hitting my limit and wasting hits with a low DV weapon, so at Initiation level 2 that would be a nice bump to my limit and for me definitely worth the 6 Karma. Especially if I don't actually have to pay for the ritual.

But since the character is not a Techie it's not going to be feasible unless he can teamwork it the group's Rigger, which sounds plausible since a ritual can be performed as a group anyway.

@Xenon and Reaver: an Initiation Level bump to my limit isn't worthless to me, especially since it just keeps getting better. But as I understand it I don't need to buy the Ritual (5 karma) but just use Armorer+Logic and then pay 6 Karma when the deed is done. We're playing a kinda low-magic setting so I'm not going to get weapon focus or imbue any items. Attunement seem the least magicky solution if I can use skills instead of rituals.

So what I propose is:
Step 1: Familiarize (extended Armorer+Logic team work test instead of ritual)
Step 2: yet another Armorer+Logic test...?
Step 3: Pay 6 Karma.





« Last Edit: <04-12-21/0429:46> by RickDeckard »

Xenon

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« Reply #7 on: <04-12-21/0742:23> »
You might replace the Ritual Spellcasting "skill" with other technical skills, such as the Armorer "skill".
You still need to know the actual "ritual" Attune Item (Blunt Weapons).


Knucks uses your physical limit. Perhaps you should aim to raise your physical limit rather than just the limit when using a specific pair of knucks? That way you will also benefit from the higher physical limit when you sneak or use athletics etc and you also open up the option to get a weapon focus in the shape of knucks that let you push through the immunity to normal weapons that materialized spirits have....

You can temporary increase your physical limit by inhaling Jazz, Kamikaze or Nito.

You can increase your physical limit directly with the Improved Potential adept power (0.5 power points per increase).

You can increase your physical limit indirectly by raising (or augmenting) your strength attribute (which is also used as base for the damage you inflict) or, to a lesser extent, your body or reaction attributes.

Reaver

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« Reply #8 on: <04-12-21/1510:16> »

But since the character is not a Techie it's not going to be feasible unless he can teamwork it the group's Rigger, which sounds plausible since a ritual can be performed as a group anyway.

@Xenon and Reaver: an Initiation Level bump to my limit isn't worthless to me, especially since it just keeps getting better. But as I understand it I don't need to buy the Ritual (5 karma) but just use Armorer+Logic and then pay 6 Karma when the deed is done. We're playing a kinda low-magic setting so I'm not going to get weapon focus or imbue any items. Attunement seem the least magicky solution if I can use skills instead of rituals.

So what I propose is:
Step 1: Familiarize (extended Armorer+Logic team work test instead of ritual)
Step 2: yet another Armorer+Logic test...?
Step 3: Pay 6 Karma.

Actually, THIS particular Ritual can NOT be done a group/teamwork test :(  This ritual is an "Adept" Ritual, and thus can only be done by the artisan performing the ritual, and no one else (The "Kick in the nuts" I mentioned above) 


So, your adept needs the artisan skills (or somehow, Ritual spellcasting) himself to do Attune Item Rituals.

He could possibly do a teamwork test for the "familiarize" step, but not for the actual Ritual...

So if you are looking for a total Karma cost it would be:

5 for Attune Item (Knuckles) Ritual (yes, its VERY exacting, basically requiring a new Ritual for every item)
5/6 To complete the Ritual.
2/6/12/20/30/42 for the armorer skill

Subtotal cost:
12 to 53 karma to get the ritual, and skills and to complete the attunement.

THEN you need to initiate to get a any bonus:

Total:
25 to 66 Karma for a single point increase to your limit. With every additional increase costing 10+(initiate rank x3).

Now granted, initiation by itself gives plenty of stuff for that karma cost, so its really not an issue nor a factor for the costs of Attunement. An adept should be initiating in order to grow their potential.

So the real question is.... Does the 12 to 53 spent doing the ritual and gaining the skills equate to a good use of Karma for the adept?
And that's hard to say, as that will change per character, and  the situation.


Personally, If you have not built for attunement right out of the gate (IE: taken a B/R skill), the karma is probably spent better somewhere else, and on other skills that may prove more useful then crafting... (like social skills, infiltration skills, legwork skills... No one likes a Mr. Punchy Potato-head) 
« Last Edit: <04-12-21/1513:21> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Xenon

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« Reply #9 on: <04-12-21/1550:49> »
Actually, THIS particular Ritual can NOT be done a group/teamwork test :(  This ritual is an "Adept" Ritual, and thus can only be done by the artisan performing the ritual, and no one else (The "Kick in the nuts" I mentioned above) 
The leader (the adept in this case that wish to attune the item) obviously need to know the ritual, however, participants (could be a regular mundane mechanic or armorer) that are helping out, does not.

SR5 p. 295 Ritual Spellcasting - Step 1: Choose Ritual Leader
The participants do not need to have learned the ritual; they simply must be willing to take part.


basically requiring a new Ritual for every item
A new ritual for every type of item.
Attune Item (Bike), for example, will work for every single bike model, not just one specific bike.


Does the 12 to 53 spent doing the ritual and gaining the skills equate to a good use of Karma for the adept?
If you have an adept that is for example focused on riding, repairing, building and modding bikes then you would already have the Engineering Skill Group or the Automotive Mechanic Skill anyway. With a one-time investment of 5 karma for the ritual that let you attune any bike and another 9 karma for attuning your favorite bike you will get a bike where limits (such as Handling and Speed) will increase by 1 each time you initiate (which you will do anyway). Which isn't too shabby for someone that is focused on riding bikes.

The table mention commlink as an example. Does this mean that for example a cyberdeck could be a valid item for attunement? Increasing all 4 matrix attributes by 1 each time you initiate...? ;-)

Reaver

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« Reply #10 on: <04-12-21/2221:11> »
Actually, THIS particular Ritual can NOT be done a group/teamwork test :(  This ritual is an "Adept" Ritual, and thus can only be done by the artisan performing the ritual, and no one else (The "Kick in the nuts" I mentioned above) 
The leader (the adept in this case that wish to attune the item) obviously need to know the ritual, however, participants (could be a regular mundane mechanic or armorer) that are helping out, does not.

SR5 p. 295 Ritual Spellcasting - Step 1: Choose Ritual Leader
The participants do not need to have learned the ritual; they simply must be willing to take part.


not this time...
AS I stated 3 times now, this is an adept ritual.
SG page 122
Quote
Adept: These rituals are specific to the nature of an adept’s
internal magic and can only be learned/performed by an adept
or mystic adept. These rituals do not allow group assistance
unless otherwise stated.

Normally you would be correct that a Ritual can be done with a group, but adept Rituals do not allow groups, unless stated, and I didn't see anything for Attune item that said it could be done as a group.
basically requiring a new Ritual for every item
A new ritual for every type of item.
Attune Item (Bike), for example, will work for every single bike model, not just one specific bike.
I get what you are saying.. but be VERY careful here. Items that could be "groups" don't all share the same characteristics. Attune Item (gun) is much too broad: As other than being a "device that launches a projectile  through the expansion of gases" a heavy machine gun and a black powder musket don't really have much in common. Same is true for a sledgehammer and a set of knuckles (but they are both blunt weapons)...
Look, all I am saying is talk to your GM...

Does the 12 to 53 spent doing the ritual and gaining the skills equate to a good use of Karma for the adept?

If you have an adept that is for example focused on riding, repairing, building and modding bikes then you would already have the Engineering Skill Group or the Automotive Mechanic Skill anyway. With a one-time investment of 5 karma for the ritual that let you attune any bike and another 9 karma for attuning your favorite bike you will get a bike where limits (such as Handling and Speed) will increase by 1 each time you initiate (which you will do anyway). Which isn't too shabby for someone that is focused on riding bikes.

The table mention commlink as an example. Does this mean that for example a cyberdeck could be a valid item for attunement? Increasing all 4 matrix attributes by 1 each time you initiate...? ;-)

If you built your adept with B/R skills then the point about karma is moot, as you have already paid it. However, the Op has yet to get the B/R skills... which is why I posted the karma for the skill costs (from 1 to 6). for the OP that is something he has to work out if its worth it.... ESPECIALLY since he can NOT teamwork ritual cast an attune item Ritual because its an Adept Ritual (which can't be used in a group, remember?)

As to the table, that is for Karma costs to attune.. and it gives you a rough idea with examples... but you know catalyst and tables.... some make NO damn sense.

If you want to attune your commlink, go right ahead. Not sure what you are going to do with it... considering:

SG 124 Attune Item
Quote

The skill used with the item
must be an active skill relating to a physical attribute. The
attuned item’s limit increase can stack with the adept’s
Enhanced Accuracy power.
Attunement provides no bonus when the item is controlled
through an electronic interface (digital, VR, AR, or
DNI),

Not sure what actions hacking wise are done with a PHYSICAL attribute...and are not done by VR, AR or DNI....

Unless you consider bashing the commlink into someone's skull repeated as "hacking"  :D

(But then, I'd go with the OP's original idea... but maybe an ax...)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <04-13-21/0550:53> »
"These rituals do not allow group assistance unless otherwise stated."

I stand corrected on this one. Thank you for being persistent :-)



Using attune item on a cyberdeck is stretching it and I would not suggest it at all unless for the fact they did list commlink as a possible target item.

Also, there seem to be 4 ways / levels of interaction you can have with your commink (or cyberdeck?)

  • Look at the display, press buttons on the touch screen, listen to built in speakers. Like how people used their smart phones back in 2021. Nobody really do this anymore, but perhaps limits while hacking like this would benefit from having an attuned deck....?
  • Goggles with image link, AR glove and earbuds. Interact with AROs and augmented reality. Device
    can be located in your back pocket or a bag, you don't have to physically touch your device. Can't really benefit from higher limits since you are interacting via AR
  • AR via DNI, for example via trodes or datajack. No additional devices such as image link or AR glove needed. With a SIM module the user can also experience "super AR" with not just seeing, hearing or touching AROs and Icons around them, but can also smell and taste them. Can't benefit from higher limits since you are interacting via AR
  • VR via DNI and SIM module. Actually entering the matrix as if you were there. Your body goes limb while doing this. Can't benefit from higher limits from attunement since you are interacting via  VR

Reaver

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« Reply #12 on: <04-13-21/1600:54> »
I have a feeling that "cyberdeck" was included on the list for no other reason than its iconic SR tech, AND is highly processed and of advanced construction; And not that it is a viable target for Attuning.

Now, I'll feely admit that the Matrix and its rules is my weak point on SR, so much so, I rely on a couple of players at my tables to keep the matrix rules running... (for those rare games were someone plays a matrix user, and I can't just handwave the matrix side with NPCs...)
But, the fact there are so many limitations to Attuning...

Has to use a Physical Attribute,
No Digital, AR, VR, DNI control..
Has to use an active skill..
Tests tied to Object Resistance

The writers are basically limiting what is actually feasible, while at the same time saying "go nuts with your imagination"...

Simple, basic melee weapons? Yea sure, no real problem as you will usually be facing off against a Ritual Drain of 5 or 6...
But you get into the area of a Bike (any motorized bike) you are talking about a drain of 15+ that the adept has to solo tank.... not really doable for all but the most Min/Maxed builds...


This is one of those cases where a better defined list of what you can and can't do would have been nice instead of concealing it in a mountain of words :P


I guess I can see some value in Attunement, for characters that are designed for it from the beginning. But for a character that isn't (like the OP's character, as it sounds), then I am less sure of that investment. Especially when you have to start acquiring a niche skill for its use... (Niche here meaning, a skill he is only going to use for Attuning and nothing else).

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.