Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: Agonar on <12-15-13/1046:14>
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Two things I noticed so far
Page 3 mentions that Flamethrowers can be used for Suppressive Fire, but doesn't say how many units of ammo this uses, while it does say that fanning up to three targets uses 2 units.
Page 13, Shiawase Arms Monsoon: There is a weird run-on sentence
As long as the user simply needs to
ensure the barrels are not heavily plugged up and the
bullets will fly toward their intended target, aided by the
integral smartlink system, which is protected in its own
shock-proof housing.
Should probably say "As long as the user ensures. . . or The user simply needs to ensure. . "
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Agonar,
I'm fairly sure that it can safely be assumed that suppressive fire and attacking multiple targets in the same fanning motion uses the same amount of fuel, aka 2 units.
And I'd like to submit the Rain Forest Carbine for errata as well, cause it broken...
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The Rain Forest Carabine surely seems off a bit. It has better stats (except for range) than an Ares Desert Strike for one fifth of its price. If you compare it to other assault rifles, damage, AP and accuracy are all superior and i don't think that clip size, price and SA only are enough to offset these.
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The Rain Forest Carabine surely seems off a bit. It has better stats (except for range) than an Ares Desert Strike for one fifth of its price. If you compare it to other assault rifles, damage, AP and accuracy are all superior and i don't think that clip size, price and SA only are enough to offset these.
Don't forget the 5R availability on the rainforest.
However, some guy already said that he "missed it in proofreading" regarding the rainforest carbine. I'm assuming we'll see an official massive damage reduction real soon.
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P 13
In Clockwork's comment the rigger's gender changes. 'His car' should be 'her car'.
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Second problem.
Flame Throwers. You can "fan" to attack up to three targets. Is this done using the Multiple Attacks Free Action (and thus splitting your dice pool), or is this done as per a grenade or Area spell (single attack roll with a threshold to hit the area), or is this done as per the spread on using Shotgun with Flechette rounds... single roll targeting multiple targets in the area, with each target defending separately?
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((Sounds like similar to suppressive fire to me, so no splitting involved, otherwise it'd say so.))
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((Sounds like similar to suppressive fire to me, so no splitting involved, otherwise it'd say so.))
But the flamethrower has a separate entry allowing for suppressive fire. "They can be used for Suppressive Fire. They can also be used to attack multiple targets;"
Unless the "up to three targets, and each within 4 meters of the others" is defining the suppressive area, overruling the normal suppressive area of a cone, no wider than 10 meters at the end..
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((I did not mean it's Suppressive Fire, I meant that the way it is phrased it would be treated similar to Shotguns and Suppressive Fire, aka no splitting.))
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The Rain Forest Carabine surely seems off a bit. It has better stats (except for range) than an Ares Desert Strike for one fifth of its price. If you compare it to other assault rifles, damage, AP and accuracy are all superior and i don't think that clip size, price and SA only are enough to offset these.
Don't forget the 5R availability on the rainforest.
However, some guy already said that he "missed it in proofreading" regarding the rainforest carbine. I'm assuming we'll see an official massive damage reduction real soon.
Real soon? You sure? ;)
Kudos to having art in the book anyway.
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The book doesn't have rules for the "magazine barrel" guns that it includes. It also lacks a price for flamethrower ammo in SR5... I assume it's not supposed to be the same as normal ammo.
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Remember the note on page 3:
Not all of the standard modifications listed with the weapons in this book are detailed in Shadowrun, Fifth Edition. A book with more weapons and combat options called Run & Gun will be released shortly after this book, providing details on these modifications.
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Speaking of the magazine barrel gun, I am disappoint in catalyst for going through the trouble of introducing Metal Storm guns and then failing to represent how they work mechanically at all.
It combines the clip and the barrel into a single unit and has bullets fired electronically in sequence, making any gun built in this manner capable of full-auto fire at ludicrous speeds, and makes the gun more accurate when using bursts, since it empties all the bullets in the barrel at the target before it even finishes recoiling. This would be easy to represent mechanically in 5th edition with either increased accuracy, a high recoil compensation, or even just a line that says 'Metal Storm guns do not suffer recoil on the first shot, but progressive recoil still applies on attacks made on additional passes.' They included two metal storm guns in this book, and neither one has improved recoil compensation or accuracy over any other gun of their type, and the metal storm shotgun is only Semi Auto!
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Sporting Rifle category does not exist in SR5. Presumably all Sporting Rifles should be reclassed Sniper Rifles in SR5 (at least both Sporting Rifles in the core book are categorized as Sniper Rifles).
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Sporting Rifle category does not exist in SR5.
Gun H(e)aven 3 disagrees with you. Ranges are listed in the front, along with the relevant skill.
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Gun H(e)aven 3 disagrees with you. Ranges are listed in the front, along with the relevant skill.
I do wish they had left that out. Machine Pistols I'd given up on, but this was a hair that looked like it would go without being split.
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Then the GH3 book is probably wrong - I doubt they'd split the corebook sporting rifles into the sniper rifles and shotguns categories, and remove the specializations, only to later deliberately reintroduce sporting rifles.
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Then the GH3 book is probably wrong - I doubt they'd split the corebook sporting rifles into the sniper rifles and shotguns categories, and remove the specializations, only to later deliberately reintroduce sporting rifles.
I agree. At least I hope so. There's no functional difference between the use of a sporting rifle and a sniper rifle (and effective ranges vary per weapon - not per general category but I'm fine with that abstraction).
Similarly, I've never really liked Shadowrun's Automatics skill either - machine pistols are pistols, assault rifles are longarms (not sure where SMGs should fall). Their usage is much more similar to those categories than to each other. I guess they just wanted a third non-heavy firearms skill for some reason.
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Similarly, I've never really liked Shadowrun's Automatics skill either - machine pistols are pistols, assault rifles are longarms (not sure where SMGs should fall). Their usage is much more similar to those categories than to each other. I guess they just wanted a third non-heavy firearms skill for some reason.
And automatic shotguns should require the Automatics skill to be used ... Anyways, easy to house-rule the assignments of weapons to a skill. A 3rd "non-heavy firearms skill" was necessary for the introduction of Skill Groups which in SR4 should at least and in SR5 do consist of 3 skills. Leastwise, that is the only reason I found.
In SR5 Core Book page 130 has an info box for "Substituting Skills". This rule can be effectively apllied for the use of firearms as well. For example with different modifiers depending on Fire Mode like Assault Riflle (SA) Longarms -1, (BF) -3 and (FA) -4 and Sniper Rifle (SS) Automatics -3 and (SA) -2 - or somthing like that.
Concerning the Specializations for the Longarms Skill I have no idea. Actually, the split of Longarms (Sniper Rifles) and (Shotguns) is all you need in SR5. I would have suggested something like (Bolt-Action), (Lever-Action) and (Semi-automatic) additionally to the both listed before. But, there is still a lack of firearms for this skill making this quite redundant.
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A 3rd "non-heavy firearms skill" was necessary for the introduction of Skill Groups which in SR4 should at least and in SR5 do consist of 3 skills. Leastwise, that is the only reason I found.
What was wrong with putting heavy weapons in a skill group?
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back on topic:
-Cavalier falchion shotgun is listed as having a smartlink. this should be a smartgun (the bonuses for smartgun are shown in the accuracy 5(7) )
-Shiawase arms Monsoon is listed as having an internal "smartlink", protected in its own housing. no accuracy bonus is applied to the stat line as per above, but its a bloody useless upgrade if it isn't actually supposed to be a smartgun.
come on guys, 38 pages isnt too much to read through before it gets published surely????
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Can't help but notice that I and many others never noticed it either. Not sure why you're claiming it wasn't proofread.
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I saw it and I'm just some schmuck gamer, not pro-rules designer or proofreader
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So what does that make everyone who bought this and didn't notice?
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Either less vocal about sloppy editing errors or less observant, perhaps both?
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So, just to be clear. You note an error that is really easy to miss, not just in similarity but also in the way people use the word wrong quite a lot without even realizing, something proven by the fact you're the first to notice, but insist that CanRay clearly did not put any effort into his proofreading, despite a total of a mere 5 errors posted so far, one in stats, one in his vs her, one with a weird run-on sentence and smartlink instead of smartgun twice, correct?
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My bet is on less vocal, like myself.
I noticed the smartlink descriptor on the Cavalier Falchion when I read it the first time, but figured it was just a typo given the smartgun system bonus.
I'm sure the book was proofread, just not enough. Then again, that's par for the course of any publication; these are not egregious errors that can't be fixed with a little bit of common sense (TM), so I for one didn't bother posting about it. There's that whole thing about the vocal minority, you know, Michael.
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I didn't notice it in the slightest. My guys use smartlink and smartgun pretty interchangeably, simply because they both refer to the same system (albeit different parts of the system). I absolutely didn't notice that the accuracy wasn't properly reflected on the Monsoon.
Pointing out errors is one thing. But to insinuate laziness or inability because of a simple oversight is kind of a dick move.
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So, just to be clear. You note an error that is really easy to miss, not just in similarity but also in the way people use the word wrong quite a lot without even realizing, something proven by the fact you're the first to notice, but insist that CanRay clearly did not put any effort into his proofreading, despite a total of a mere 5 errors posted so far, one in stats, one in his vs her, one with a weird run-on sentence and smartlink instead of smartgun twice, correct?
I'm not trying to be arsey about it mate, but it popped right out the page at me first time I read it. In fact, every single mention of smartgun in the book is listed as smartlink, so its not exactly an isolated incident. Its not like smartguns/smartlinks are a new addition to the game either...
I'm appreciative of the new material as i'm sure we all are, just frustrates me that everything that seems to come out and require errata of some kind. I get it for a huge thing like a 450-500 page rule book,
but a low word count 38 page supplement I just wish didn't need one. Just daft little errors that could easily have been picked up by a decent proofreader.
just sayin.
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If only there wasn't a history of this kind of thing with CGL, people might not be so touchy about it, on either side of the fence.
Personal attacks are out of line - and I'm not sure there is one here, but calling yet another proofreading/editing error out SHOULD be done. They need to be fixed, and CGL needs to take more time to find them before printing/release.
Let's fix it, the trend, and then maybe it's a non-issue.
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If only there wasn't a history of this kind of thing with CGL, people might not be so touchy about it, on either side of the fence.
Personal attacks are out of line - and I'm not sure there is one here, but calling yet another proofreading/editing error out SHOULD be done. They need to be fixed, and CGL needs to take more time to find them before printing/release.
I mean, 3 pages of errata discussion for 30 some odd pages? That doesn't worry/annoy you, honestly? Let's fix it.
Before talking about how long the topic is, you may want to check how many errors there actually are. Most of the length is just debate and thus utterly irrelevant as to how much this needs to be fixed. If you can find more than the five errors I found reported in this topic, let me know.
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Already fixed before you quoted. Point stands though.
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If only there wasn't a history of this kind of thing with CGL, people might not be so touchy about it, on either side of the fence.
Personal attacks are out of line - and I'm not sure there is one here, but calling yet another proofreading/editing error out SHOULD be done. They need to be fixed, and CGL needs to take more time to find them before printing/release.
I mean, 3 pages of errata discussion for 30 some odd pages? That doesn't worry/annoy you, honestly? Let's fix it.
Before talking about how long the topic is, you may want to check how many errors there actually are. Most of the length is just debate and thus utterly irrelevant as to how much this needs to be fixed. If you can find more than the five errors I found reported in this topic, let me know.
Every single mention of smartgun is listed as smartlink, that must be five right there
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I'm not trying to be arsey about it mate
This quote doesn't make sense when followed up with this one:
Every single mention of smartgun is listed as smartlink, that must be five right there
Especially when you consider that it's obvious that Michael's mention of the five errors isn't counting each mention of smartlinks.
I'd be curious to find out how many of you guys have written anything professionally and made errors. And bear in mind that professional writing would include reports for work, not just things that get published.
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Wrote detailed manuals for computer systems and test cases for the Department of Defense as a contractor. And each and every little mistake was pointed out to me and corrected.
At the same time, it wasn't personal and I didn't take it that way. But it was a mistake, and needed to be corrected.
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I did similar. And at no point did anyone say something along the lines of these gems:
come on guys, 38 pages isnt too much to read through before it gets published surely????
Either less vocal about sloppy editing errors or less observant, perhaps both?
Which is very patronizing and quite a bit insulting. I'm not lazy, and I doubt that anyone involved in the process of writing the books is lazy. I'm not oblivious to things, and I doubt that anyone involved in the process of writing the books is oblivious. And yet I missed these things when I read through the book a few times, and apparently so did everyone involved in the process of writing the book. It's not that the errors shouldn't be mentioned - what shouldn't be mentioned are the personal-sounding barbs insulting those of us that missed the errors.
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Compared to how badly they messed up the core rulebook, they've done a stellar job on this one. :P
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I'm not trying to be arsey about it mate
This quote doesn't make sense when followed up with this one:
Every single mention of smartgun is listed as smartlink, that must be five right there
Especially when you consider that it's obvious that Michael's mention of the five errors isn't counting each mention of smartlinks.
I'd be curious to find out how many of you guys have written anything professionally and made errors. And bear in mind that professional writing would include reports for work, not just things that get published.
I've done a lot of report writing. Anything that needs checking gets checked before I submit it.
When it is submitted, it is correct and all in order. Never thought that was too much to ask personally.
Anyways, this is getting a bit personal and heated so i'll bow out.
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Let's try to get back on track of reporting errata in this thread instead of complaining about it?
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And I'd like to submit the Rain Forest Carbine for errata as well, cause it broken...
I'm going with the assumption that it's actually a Sport Rifle (or even Sniper Rifle) instead of an Assault Rifle. What kind of Assault Rifle doesn't have at least Burst Fire? Also the entire book is grouped by weapon type except this one, which is smack in the middle of the Sport Rifles.
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As Sport Rifle its stats are still bad, really. And I think the idea of an AR weapon without BF in return for other stuff isn't that big a deal. But the issue is known, so we'll see eventually what it will become. No point in debating whether we think the type is wrong or its damage, or ap, or accuracy, or... We'll see what's intended once we get errata for it.
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Maybe the Rainforest Carbine is supposed to actually be an Ares Excalibur! Maybe the title of the gun is a misprint.
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Colt Inception p.14 "continued dominance in new this lucrative market segment"
'new' should not be there.
I've only gotten that far into it so far, and all the other errors I've noticed have been mentioned already.
Also, I'm seriously wondering if the new firing system for the 'metal storm' is just for flavour as there doesn't seem to be any sort of noticeable difference between them and others of their type. Does anyone know if that's an error or if they really are supposed to be the same?
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Also, I'm seriously wondering if the new firing system for the 'metal storm' is just for flavour as there doesn't seem to be any sort of noticeable difference between them and others of their type. Does anyone know if that's an error or if they really are supposed to be the same?
The electronic firing mechanism was something from 4th edition Arsenal. It just removes the physical trigger mechanism, and does nothing in terms of game mechanics.
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Also, I'm seriously wondering if the new firing system for the 'metal storm' is just for flavour as there doesn't seem to be any sort of noticeable difference between them and others of their type. Does anyone know if that's an error or if they really are supposed to be the same?
The electronic firing mechanism was something from 4th edition Arsenal. It just removes the physical trigger mechanism, and does nothing in terms of game mechanics.
Wasn't what I meant, I meant the 'Arms Rain' guns. The ones with the bullets in the barrels that you replace.
Not surprising you didn't know what I meant though. I don't know how I got 'metal storm' as the name for them, but that's now what any character I make that uses them will refer to them as.
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We'll find out when Run&Gun gets out.
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Not surprising you didn't know what I meant though. I don't know how I got 'metal storm' as the name for them, but that's now what any character I make that uses them will refer to them as.
Oh right. That's just for flavor, really. The big difference is that unlike other weapons fed with the (m) mechanism, you can reload the whole thing at once, like a (c) mechanism.
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The electronic firing mechanism was something from 4th edition Arsenal. It just removes the physical trigger mechanism, and does nothing in terms of game mechanics.
It provides a point of RC, as well as a -1 pool penalty to sound-based Perception checks to hear the gun.
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The electronic firing mechanism was something from 4th edition Arsenal. It just removes the physical trigger mechanism, and does nothing in terms of game mechanics.
It provides a point of RC, as well as a -1 pool penalty to sound-based Perception checks to hear the gun.
???? Bwahahahahaha.
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That was its SR4 effect, and I assume it will be the same in SR5. Which stacks with silencers, so if they still give internal silencers a higher penalty, we're talking a -7 on Perception tests to score 2 hits. :)
I recall the RC didn't stack with Personalized Grip, though.
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Oh I get that it was the effect in SR4, I just never played SR4 and so that was pretty amusing - being the first time I've read it.
I'm not sure how the hammer striking a metal pin striking a brass - you know, scratch that. There isn't even a brass casing to strike since SR ammo is caseless, but anyway, how that removal reduces the chance to hear the 'bang' part.
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Not all SR ammo is caseless, but yes, Runners tend to use caseless ammo, and EF only works with caseless. The effect on the perception test would be that the propellant is discharged in a different way (namely through an electric charge) and as a result causes less of a bang.
And seriously, don't bring realism into it. >_> Suspension of disbelief shouldn't be cancelled for a simple weapon modification with a small effect, realism lawyers and rule lawyers both shouldn't play RPGs.
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I'm not trying to argue it should be different, just remarking that it's funny. :)
And it's weird you say don't go all 'realism' while trying to point out why the effect is potentially real.
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It makes no sense considering the sound of a gunshot isn't released to the brass casing, but the explosive primer and gunpowder ignition. It's just more crunch, which is OK since it's a pretty abstracted game.
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Wasn't what I meant, I meant the 'Arms Rain' guns. The ones with the bullets in the barrels that you replace.
Not surprising you didn't know what I meant though. I don't know how I got 'metal storm' as the name for them, but that's now what any character I make that uses them will refer to them as.
You probably got it from the name of the company/tech that the guns are based on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Storm
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also for errata, the blurb entry for the shiawase arms monsoon seems highly confused about the rigger's gender. might want to clear up whether the rigger in question is male or female, as it is stated as being both!
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It's 2014. It could be both. And that's ok. Also, Shadowrun's tumblr page will be buried in knee-jerk hate if anyone says otherwise.
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It's 2014. It could be both. And that's ok. Also, Shadowrun's tumblr page will be buried in knee-jerk hate if anyone says otherwise.
LOL with the rules from Attitude and Augmentation, it certainly seems like biotech allows all kinds of strange-ass things to happen.
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I know the essence cost of a gender change, but not sure what it costs to have both...
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I know the essence cost of a gender change, but not sure what it costs to have both...
Gender isn't always binary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_systems), even at a genetic level. Nothing saying that someone couldn't - within the same scope of gender modification - have their biology modified to a point where they exhibit many biological traits of both a man and woman.
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I'm not trying to argue it should be different, just remarking that it's funny. :)
And it's weird you say don't go all 'realism' while trying to point out why the effect is potentially real.
It is actually very realistic. With a cased round you have a primer that pops then detonates the powder that propels the bullet. Gases escape out of the ejection port for the casing as well as from the rear of the gun if it uses a hammer (such as many Sig Sauer models).
With electronic firing, there is no need for an ejection port. Gas only escapes out the front of the barrel. With electronic firing there is also no need for an actual primer. You can electronically detonate the powder directly. Half the explosions.
If you're actually suppressing the weapon, you can actually catch all the escaping gases (instead of just most of them). Some guns don't make sense to be much quieter (revolvers for example), but most do.
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It makes no sense considering the sound of a gunshot isn't released to the brass casing, but the explosive primer and gunpowder ignition. It's just more crunch, which is OK since it's a pretty abstracted game.
Howdy! Ever shot subsonic .45? Ever shot subsonic .45 through a can/silencer/suppressor? The noise is from the (greatly muted) primary propellant and the hammer/slide mechanism. It's pretty impressive. While I've never been able to pick out the trigger among that, I could definitely see the benefits of reducing less mechanical parts. If you could eliminate the slide, like with electric firing, it could be really impressive.
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It makes no sense considering the sound of a gunshot isn't released to the brass casing, but the explosive primer and gunpowder ignition. It's just more crunch, which is OK since it's a pretty abstracted game.
Howdy! Ever shot subsonic .45? Ever shot subsonic .45 through a can/silencer/suppressor? The noise is from the (greatly muted) primary propellant and the hammer/slide mechanism. It's pretty impressive. While I've never been able to pick out the trigger among that, I could definitely see the benefits of reducing less mechanical parts. If you could eliminate the slide, like with electric firing, it could be really impressive.
i agree with this, though having never shot a suppressed gun (being canadian and all) it is of my understanding that 99% of the noise from a suppressed gun firing subsonic ammo is the action cycling (metal on metal at high speeds is loud).
removing the action would make the firearm nearly impossible to detect from any range, assuming a good suppressor/ammunition pair is used
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Caseless ammo would likely make revolvers less effective. Which, in turn, means electronic firing would likely be a bad idea.
Take a good, long look at the reloading mechanism. The reason why it is that silencing a revolver has never worked, even with the possibility of eliminating the mechanical noise, is because the reloading mechanism created an area where the sound itself is actually going to escape via the revolving chamber. In general, gas has been prevented from escaping via the leftover case. That's why it is silencers don't work on revolvers in real life.
Now, imagine how much less effective revolvers would be using caseless ammunition, where it would be the propellant gas escaping via the revolving chamber... Probably talking a range reduction. The only way around this is to hermetically seal the revolving chamber, which even with Shadowrun's advancements is likely going to make reloading very difficult but will preserve the gun's range (meaning that it's more likely two or more complex actions just to get the revolving chamber open to reload it).
It is because of the above problems that, in real life, revolvers have been ruled out for using caseless ammunition.
And that is why we shouldn't let realism get in the way of playing the game :P
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Caseless ammo would likely make revolvers less effective. Which, in turn, means electronic firing would likely be a bad idea.
Take a good, long look at the reloading mechanism. The reason why it is that silencing a revolver has never worked, even with the possibility of eliminating the mechanical noise, is because the reloading mechanism created an area where the sound itself is actually going to escape via the revolving chamber. In general, gas has been prevented from escaping via the leftover case. That's why it is silencers don't work on revolvers in real life.
Now, imagine how much less effective revolvers would be using caseless ammunition, where it would be the propellant gas escaping via the revolving chamber... Probably talking a range reduction. The only way around this is to hermetically seal the revolving chamber, which even with Shadowrun's advancements is likely going to make reloading very difficult but will preserve the gun's range (meaning that it's more likely two or more complex actions just to get the revolving chamber open to reload it).
It is because of the above problems that, in real life, revolvers have been ruled out for using caseless ammunition.
And that is why we shouldn't let realism get in the way of playing the game :P
This is an engineering problem, at best. The russians have a working silenced revolver. I wouldn't be able to tell you WHY they made it - your guess is as good as mine, but they have put a lot of research into silenced weapons. The russian revolver works by sealing the gap as the cylinder turns and fires. It's a pretty interesting weapon.
Similarly, creating a revolver that's built around firing caseless ammunition would present new challenges, but nothing that couldn't be overcome with ingenuity and funding. Something like high-pressure disposable moon-clips comes to mind.
Here's the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTs-38_Stechkin_silent_revolver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTs-38_Stechkin_silent_revolver)
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All the Assault Rifles - The Colt Inception, the SBd-44, the Kreigfaust and the Monsoon, seem to be statted in SR5 with -1 AP, when all Assault rifles in SR5 Core book are statted at -2 AP