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SR5 AOE spell Rules

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Hanzo

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« on: <04-14-21/0855:43> »
Howdy, chummers!

Today in the morning I've had a coversation with my chummies regarding calculation in the Example of AOE spell attack on page 283 of SR5.CRB.

I think we have the folowing scenario and calculations:

1) Rikki rolls Spellcasting+Magic (3) [Force] and gets 5 Hits
So the Blast spell DV is now 7+(5-3)=9, and -7 AP
2) Ganger 1 rolls Reaction+Intuition-2 and gets 2 hits. 5 vs. 2 = 3 Nets hits to Rikki
3) Ganger 2 rolls Reaction+Intuition-2 and gets 4 hits. 5 vs. 4 = 1 Nets hit to Rikki

So now Ganger 1 has to deal with 9+3=12 DV with -7 AP, and Garger 2 has to deal with 9+1=10 DV with -7AP
This scenario means that net hits from Spellcasting are applied twice: one time from the Siple test to make the spell, and the second time - from the opposed test. But you can completely evade spell damage, say if Ganger 3 has 5+ Hits on his Defence roll.

And there is another way to solve/calculate this matter

1) Rikki rolls Spellcasting+Magic (3) [Force] and gets 5 Hits
So the Blast spell DV is now 7+5=12, and -7 AP
2) Ganger 1 rolls Reaction+Intuition-2 and gets 2 hits.
3) Ganger 2 rolls Reaction+Intuition-2 and gets 4 hits.

So now Ganger 1 has to deal with 12-2=10 DV with -7 AP, and Garger 2 has to deal with 12-4=8 DV with -7AP
This scenario means that despite your Defence Roll (and even the Spellcasting roll) characters are affected by the AOE spell. Say If Rikki poorly rolls with only 2 Hits then the Blast still has 7 DV and -7AP, and if there is someone affected by this spell, they will roll Reaction+Intuintion-2 just only to decrease DV of the spell and then will get the Soak roll.

Which scenario is true ?

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <04-14-21/1601:28> »
While there are still many existing references and examples to defense test and modifiers to defense tests against AoE attacks (such as grenades, rockets and indirect LoS(A) spells) it have been clarified that no defense test is possible against them and that every single existing references in the book should be subject to errata.

Note that Run and Gun introduce a -5 Initiative Score Interrupt Action called Run for your Life.

R&G p. 125 Run for your Life
Immediately after a ... Area-Effect Indirect Combat Spell Spellcasting Test, a character can make an immediate Interrupt Action to flee. The character chooses a direction to move and can use any amount of available Movement to move away from the incoming attack.

Also note differences between Direct Combat Spells and Indirect Combat Spells.
« Last Edit: <04-14-21/1611:12> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <04-14-21/1609:01> »
This is one of the things that never did get properly errata'd for 5e.  Per the rules for Area Indirect Combat Spells (pg 283, SR5)

Quote
Area indirect spells
travel from the magician to the point of detonation and
then go boom. The test is like that for grenades (p. 181):
a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) Test with scatter of 2D6
meters.

This is relevant to your example, as Blast (pg. 284 SR5) is typed as an Area Indirect spell.  Ergo, Rikki rolls against a Threshold of 3 and Gangers 1 and 2 roll nothing, just as if Rikki were instead throwing a grenade.  The exception to the grenade rules, as said in the following sentence after the quote, is that Rikki's net hits adds to the DV.

Of course this is problematic for counterspelling, and indeed directly contradicts the example for countespelling a fireball (on pg. 295 SR5).  Furthermore, pg 190 mentions a -2 dice modifier for defending against blasts from grenades and spells.  But, per the rules for blasts (pgs 181-183 SR5) there is no defense granted against such attacks in the first place, so the citation in pg 190 is flawed to begin with.

If I get to participate in a 5e CRB errata project, this is literally the #1 item on my list to address.  In the meantime?  My personal opinion is that grenades and area indirect combat spells grant no defense test. Counterspelling, if used against an indirect area combat spell, subtracts from the caster's net hits rather than adding to the defenders' non-existent defense tests.  Arguably, a result of 0 hits on the casting test results in no blast being generated at all, rather than one that deviates with a margin of failure of 3.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <04-14-21/1625:52> »
There are many references to defense tests and AoE
I have them listed all of them in a longer conversation in the rules clarification thread somewhere.


Counterspelling, if used against an indirect area combat spell, subtracts from the caster's net hits rather than ...
Interesting....
We roll spell defense as a pool of its own for each target in the AoE.

With your reading the entire fireball spell might fizzle (or start to scatter or deal less damage) if one target in the AoE have spell defense.
With my reading individual targets inside the AoE that have spell defense might avoid getting hurt (or take less damage).

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <04-14-21/1634:14> »
There are many references to defense tests and AoE
I have them listed all of them in a longer conversation in the rules clarification thread somewhere.


Counterspelling, if used against an indirect area combat spell, subtracts from the caster's net hits rather than ...
Interesting....
We roll spell defense as a pool of its own for each target in the AoE.

With your reading the entire fireball spell might fizzle (or start to scatter or deal less damage) if one target in the AoE have spell defense.
With my reading individual targets inside the AoE that have spell defense might avoid getting hurt (or take less damage).

Yeah, there's lots of potential ways to do it.  Spell Defense adds to the soak pool... since AP is a thing in SR5 having Spell Defense grant a special defense test composed solely of spell defense dice could work... almost the same thing as bonus dice to soak, but each hit also reduces AP on top of the DV.  Neither way can make the spell simply fail to happen though, which imo is one of the goals you might have when counterspelling.  Especially something like a fireball, that will end up causing collateral damage...

I think about the only objectively WRONG way to do it is the example given on pg 295...
« Last Edit: <04-14-21/1636:46> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hanzo

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« Reply #5 on: <04-15-21/0259:45> »
Thanks ! No Defence tests exept for R&G p. 125 Run for your Life. Got it !