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Attack from cover, minor action?

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Darksithmstr

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« on: <01-26-22/1249:05> »
Enjoying the newest Seattle corebook.  I was looking at take cover and cover status.  It says you can attack from cover, but required the minor action.  Which minor action, there is no attack from cover?  Or does it cost a minor action slot?
« Last Edit: <01-26-22/1307:37> by Darksithmstr »
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MercilessMing

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« Reply #1 on: <01-26-22/1426:37> »
This rule gets skipped over all the time, in my experience.  on page 52, in the description of the Cover status, it says "Attacking from Cover requires an extra Minor Action in order to get clear enough to take a shot..."
This isn't mentioned in the list of Minor actions, probably because it's not an action in itself.  It makes the Attack action more expensive.  Attack costs 1 Major and 1 Minor if you are in Cover.

Smartgun systems (page 260) include a camera that you can use to "fire from cover, suffering no Attack test penalties while affected by the Cover status".  It isn't explicitly stated, but I would include the extra Minor action cost one of the penalties that smartguns negate.

There's also the Edge Action Fire from Cover which allows you to ignore the Minor Action penalty, but strangely it requires you to be in Cover IV to perform, even though the Minor action penalty is present at all four cover levels.  This might have been an oversight in the errata process - it makes no sense to only have the edge action available at Cover IV when all levels of Cover impose the penalty.
« Last Edit: <01-26-22/1429:18> by MercilessMing »

Xenon

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« Reply #2 on: <01-26-22/1427:12> »
If you hide behind cover then your regular Major Attack Action cost an extra Minor Action (in order to clear enough to take the shot).

If you don't have an extra Minor Action to spare (or want to save it for something else) you can instead choose to spend some of your tactical advantage to take the 'Fire From Cover' 2-Edge Action.


Other defensive options besides Take Cover include Dodge, Block, Avoid Incoming, Drop Prone, Hit the Dirt, Tactical Roll and Full Defense.
« Last Edit: <01-26-22/1430:12> by Xenon »

Finstersang

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« Reply #3 on: <01-26-22/1900:43> »
Cover is just such a mess in this Edition. Why did it have to be 3 different negative and 2 different positive Effects? SiMPliFiCaShun, I guess? Why is it not explicitly stated if smartgun usage also effects the Minor Action (as I read it, it doesnt, because its not an "Attack test penalty"?  :o) and the Edge denial (might be the case now, who knows)? Why has the Periscope a worse effect in this regard when its clearly the more specialized gear for shooting around cover? Why does Fire from Cover only work in Cover IV situations?

And why the hell is "Shoot from Cover with an Imaging Scope and you can ignore AR/DR trololo" still a thing?
« Last Edit: <01-26-22/1907:52> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

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Tnirb

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« Reply #4 on: <01-27-22/0050:26> »
Quote
Smartgun systems (page 260) include a camera that you can use to "fire from cover, suffering no Attack test penalties while affected by the Cover status".  It isn't explicitly stated, but I would include the extra Minor action cost one of the penalties that smartguns negate.
I think it means that the, -2 dice pool penalty to attack, suffered at Cover IV (P. 52) is removed when using a smartgun weapon with a smartlink. You still use an extra Minor action to attack unless you use; Edge Action: Fire from Cover - Ranged Atttack, must be in Cover IV (p.47). Agreed - should work on Cover I,II,III aswell.

An option is also to completly hide behind the cover and don't fire back (p.111, Barriers section):
Quote
Take Cover assumes you are planning or desiring to return fire. If youre just hiding back there, the rules are a little different. Any time youre completely behind an object and you get hit, you gain the benefits of the Structure rating of the material. This can be anything from a pane of glass to a ferrocrete reinforced bunker taking the punch out of incoming attacks for you. Subtract half the Structure rating (rounded up) from the incoming unmodified damage. Anything left over gets the extra hits from the Attack Test and needs to be resisted.

 

MercilessMing

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« Reply #5 on: <01-27-22/1027:46> »
Quote
Smartgun systems (page 260) include a camera that you can use to "fire from cover, suffering no Attack test penalties while affected by the Cover status".  It isn't explicitly stated, but I would include the extra Minor action cost one of the penalties that smartguns negate.
I think it means that the, -2 dice pool penalty to attack, suffered at Cover IV (P. 52) is removed when using a smartgun weapon with a smartlink. You still use an extra Minor action to attack unless you use; Edge Action: Fire from Cover - Ranged Atttack, must be in Cover IV (p.47). Agreed - should work on Cover I,II,III aswell.

It could mean that too - I base what I said on the idea that Minor action penalty is grounded in the fiction by needing to get clear of cover to take the shot, and there's no need to get clear when there's a camera on your gun.

Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: <01-27-22/1359:57> »
Compared to 5th edition:

Firing from Cover IV = Blind Fire (-6 dice)

Firing from Cover IV + Camera/Smartgun = Attacker firing from Cover with Imaging Device (-3 dice)

Firing from Cover IV + Periscope = Attacker firing from Cover with Imaging Device (-2 dice)

Firing from Cover IV + Wireless Periscope = Attacker firing from Cover with Imaging Device (-1 dice)




What would have made most sense here (at least to me) is that you no longer need to spend an Extra Minor Action to clear enough to make the shot if your gun is equipped with a camera or periscope (and not only for Cover IV). Perhaps the intent here is that it would be obvious that you no longer need to spend an Extra Minor action to clear enough to take the shot?

And the next thing that would make more sense (at least to me) is that, just like in previous edition, using a mounted periscope would be more efficient than using a mounted camera when it comes to reducing the dice pool penalty. After all, this is what the periscope is designed for.

And the third thing here is that you should probably be allowed to spend a 2-Edge action to not spend a Minor action to clear enough to take the shot even for Cover I, II and III. Not just when you are completely behind Cover IV.

As such:

Firing from Cover IV = No Edge, -2 Dice and extra Minor Action (or a 2-Edge Action)

Firing from Cover IV + Camera/Smartgun = No Edge and -2 Dice

Firing from Cover IV + Periscope = No Edge and -1 Dice

Firing from Cover IV + Wireless Periscope = No Edge

Streamlined :-)




As written though (RAW) the camera nor the periscope seem to remove the need for spending an Extra Minor action to clear enough to take the shot. The 2-Edge Action seem to only be useful to remove the need of an Extra Minor action if yo are in Cover IV (and not Cover I, II or III). And as written the camera seem to remove the entire dice pool penalty while a periscope that is not wireless only seem to remove one of them.

Firing from Cover IV = No Edge, -2 Dice and extra Minor Action (or a 2-Edge Action)

Firing from Cover IV + Camera/Smartgun = No Edge and extra Minor Action (or a 2-Edge Action)

Firing from Cover IV + Periscope = No Edge, -1 Dice and extra Minor Action (or a 2-Edge Action)

Firing from Cover IV + Wireless Periscope = No Edge and extra Minor Action (or a 2-Edge Action)
« Last Edit: <01-27-22/1505:28> by Xenon »

Finstersang

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« Reply #7 on: <01-27-22/1812:56> »
Yeah, now you just have to remove all that "No Edge" nonsense and everything works fine  ;D

BTM, anyone noticed that hiding fully behind a barrier is even more bonkers in some cases? Simply hiding behind "Thin Paper" is enough to give you a flat damage reduction of 1 :o
« Last Edit: <01-27-22/1819:57> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <01-27-22/1821:23> »
I know you really hate that one, but I think it make sense that if you want to gain a tactical advantage over your opponent while attacking you need to stay mobile, flank and be aggressive. Not covering behind cover

(but an alternative advantage of using a periscope could perhaps be that you can gain a tactical advantage when attacking from behind cover)

Finstersang

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« Reply #9 on: <01-27-22/1836:51> »
TBH, I just decided to completely houserule the whole thing. Im currently going with what Id consider an actual simplified version:

  • Cover Grants +rating to the Defense Pool and the Defense Value AND LIKEWISE...
  • ... it also reducess the Attack Pool and Attack value by its rating UNLESS...
  • ... You spend an additional Minor Action for the shot.
  • Note: This Minor action reflects quickly moving in and out of Cover instead of awkwardly shooting around the corner without proper aim. Since I also allow delayed Ranged attacks (a thing for another threat), this also bears the Potential of getting shot at just when you stick you head out.
  • Smartguns and Periskopes make shooting without sticking your head out easier. For both, the negative Modifiers to the Attack Pool and Attack value are halfed (round down).
  • Obviosuyl, nothing about Edge  ;)

Its probably not perfect, but its at least somewhat intuitive.
« Last Edit: <01-27-22/1838:27> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #10 on: <01-27-22/1838:21> »
Cover IV gets me 4 DR and 4 defensive dice extra, that's the best boost I can get. I'll gladly make sacrifices to compensate for that.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #11 on: <01-27-22/1845:12> »
Oh, I like that theres a tradeoff here. Id just rather have something that closely scales with the rating of the cover and doesnt undermine core mechanics of the system.
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"