Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Lorebane24 on <10-16-13/2242:20>

Title: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Lorebane24 on <10-16-13/2242:20>
Trying to dig up a bit more on the current state of the world, and I was wondering a few things about the corporate court.  First of all, they're all pretty heartless, but some seem to be a bit more depraved and/or insane than others, so if you were going to make a ranking of not simply heartlessness but black-souled evil that is found in the upper echelons of a corp, what would it look like?  Based on what I can tell, Ares seems to have the smallest amount, being motivated solely by their bottom line (even their trafficing with insect spirits seems to be as simple as wanting an edge over everyone else), with Aztechnology being at the top what with their blood magic and attempts to destroy the world.  Are any of the corps worse than the the Azzies in this respect?  Is their something I'm missing about Ares?  I had pegged MCT as second to Aztechnology, and I heard Horizon apparently has an absolutely insane agenda, but can't figure out what it is.  Based on a cursory glance, Evo and NeoNet don't seem as bad as a lot of the others, and I figure that the zaibatsus are bit more ruthless because their culture places a high emphasis on racial purity and honor (read: vengeance).

Secondly, what is the latest dirt on the megas?  I know that Ares is up to something with bugs, and I'm DYING to know what went on with Horizon.  Do we know any other dark secrets or crazy agendas of the Corporate Court?
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Belker on <10-16-13/2304:41>
...so if you were going to make a ranking of not simply heartlessness but black-souled evil that is found in the upper echelons of a corp, what would it look like?  Based on what I can tell, Ares seems to have the smallest amount, being motivated solely by their bottom line (even their trafficing with insect spirits seems to be as simple as wanting an edge over everyone else),

I think a strong case can be made that "being motivated solely by their bottom line" can lead to a place being pretty damn black and evil in it's heart. Ares is rampant capitalism run amok. That's even before you get to what seems to be some sort of corruption by the bugs, which almost certainly spells Bad Things(tm).

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with Aztechnology being at the top what with their blood magic and attempts to destroy the world

I think the consensus is with you on that one. I don't think there's anyone that doesn't regard the Big A as truly evil at it's core.

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I had pegged MCT as second to Aztechnology

I don't think I'd go that far. The Japanacorps are definitely soulgrinding entities, and MCT in particular is ruthless, but I put them below Aztechnology and IMHO Ares, and possibly Saeder-Krupp.

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I heard Horizon apparently has an absolutely insane agenda, but can't figure out what it is.

Horizon and Evo both have have a lot of transhumanist philosophy in their DNA, Evo more overtly so. Horizon does do some wacky things like fitting everyone with skillwires and using them as interchangable meat-cogs in the machinery of corporate life, but Evo is pushing for the Singularity. Whether or not you class those things as evil is a matter of personal interpretation.

I'm not up on NeoNet's agenda; I suspect the fractured nature of it's leadership has it pretty inwardly focused right now. Saeder-Krupp seems to be largely an extension of Lofwyr's will, and whether he's evil or not, he's certainly one ruthless lizard. I suspect Lofwyr stepping down as Loremaster of the dragons will free him to exercise his will a bit more freely than before.

I don't have a good read on Wuxing.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Lorebane24 on <10-16-13/2326:47>
I imagine I could have a lot of fun with Wuxing.  I live in China right now, and as tied up their corporate cultures is going to be in Chinese alchemy and numerology, they could almost serve as comic relief for me and my buddies over here, though sometimes I can have them do stuff that's crazy in a frightening way.  Upcoming run will see them fighting a Triad squad (not Wuxing, I know, but they subscribe to a lot of the same superstions).  Going to be exactly 8 guys, cause that's a lucky number, and as soon as their numbers drop to four, the leader immediately kills one of his own grunts, because four is wildly unlucky.

As far as Ares go, I see them as having an evil that is palpable but with understandable, even human motivations.  They're ruthless as hell, but they don't strike me as insane.  They do evil to profit from it, not for the sake of evil or in service to some greater evil entity or agenda.  I figure if you get caught by Ares, they'll be like "You aren't supposed to be here and letting you live is a security risk," and then shoot you.  I figure MCT would be like "You have tried to steal from us and now you will die by inches, but first we will need a list of your closest relatives."

I would LOVE to hear more about what Horizon and Evo are into, because that sounds downright creepy.  On a similar note, what's the deal with Gary Cline?  Not being too familiar with canon, I don't feel so bound by it.  I was going to cast him as the archvillain in my game, acting in private a lot like Handsome Jack from Borderlands, with an ultimate goal of creating a global cult of personality around himself.  I dunno, I like that idea, but if there's something darker or more interesting in canon, I'd love to hear it.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Black on <10-16-13/2335:32>
Pretty subjective but perhaps a bit of fun:

Most Evil to Least Evil
Aztechnology
Blood Magic, Human Sacrifices, links to evils from beyond, war and ruthless war crime type tactics, bonded human slaved (Mecurial), human experiments on sinless (DNA DOA), Efficiency Experts who really are happy to make 'cuts'...  However, they balance it out with Stuffer Shacks.  Stuffers balance every out...

Ares
Only because of the Bugs.  Still, happy to start wars to increase arms sales.  Otherwise, mostly harmless...

Mistuhama
Too closely linked to the Yakuza.  Tend to be fairly Ruthless.  Experimented on Technomancers

Evo
hmmm... Experimented on Eghosts.  Might be less evil then Mistuhama.  Better corp since breaking from its Japcorp roots and embracing metahumanity.

Horizon
Did they mess with technomancers and free spirits?  faked war crimes.  Most likely 'not the good guys' they pretend to be.

Saeder-Krupp
Lowfyr.  Most likely not an overtly evil corp, but is an extension of the great wyrms power.  Lowfyr has not been potrayed as an overt evil force... but not a good guy either.

Renraku
ignoring the Deus incident, fairly harmless.  Have started kidnapping CAS politicians for some reason.  General rumours are that they have been 'too quiet'.

NeoNet
Almost as harmless as Shiawise, except they have a dragon.  Dragons change everything.

Wuxing
Low profile.  May even be a good corp... but most likely they just slip under the radar

Shiawise
Most harmless of the corps.  More dangerious to itself then others.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: SnackerBob on <10-16-13/2347:18>
Renraku
ignoring the Deus incident, fairly harmless.  Have started kidnapping CAS politicians for some reason.  General rumours are that they have been 'too quiet'.
It's strange to me that Renraku was always one of the main Bad Guys in the videmo games. Also, they allied with the UB before Cermak, where they were using homeless folks as hosts/test subjects.
I don't remember the reason they felt the need to ally with a non-profit, but there you go.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: RHat on <10-16-13/2352:48>
As far as MCT goes, I'd like to add one thing for consideration, which I suggest makes them worse than Ares:  Vivisections.

Notable, Ares research into Bugs might have horrible consequences, but that doesn't intrinsically mean that the motivations for the action are evil - hubris seems more to be their downfall there.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: CanRay on <10-16-13/2356:21>
Horizon is batdrek insane, not evil.  Of course, part of their being insane is that they don't know what evil is, so thusly...
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <10-16-13/2356:57>
Pretty subjective but perhaps a bit of fun:

Most Evil to Least Evil
Aztechnology
Ares
Mistuhama
Evo
Horizon
Saeder-Krupp
Renraku
NeoNet
Wuxing
Shiawise

*laughs hysterically*
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Lorebane24 on <10-17-13/0030:57>
Horizon is batdrek insane, not evil.  Of course, part of their being insane is that they don't know what evil is, so thusly...

I keep hearing this, but why?!  What did they do?  What about them is so crazy?  I wanna know!
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Black on <10-17-13/0032:32>
Pretty subjective but perhaps a bit of fun:

Most Evil to Least Evil
Aztechnology
Ares
Mistuhama
Evo
Horizon
Saeder-Krupp
Renraku
NeoNet
Wuxing
Shiawise

*laughs hysterically*
:o  Okay Wyrm, your turn then  8)
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: CanRay on <10-17-13/0331:11>
Horizon is batdrek insane, not evil.  Of course, part of their being insane is that they don't know what evil is, so thusly...
I keep hearing this, but why?!  What did they do?  What about them is so crazy?  I wanna know!
Basically, "The Consensus".  ;D
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: RdMarquis on <10-17-13/0708:51>
Horizon is batdrek insane, not evil.  Of course, part of their being insane is that they don't know what evil is, so thusly...

I keep hearing this, but why?!  What did they do?  What about them is so crazy?  I wanna know!

In short, they want all of (meta)humanity to be good, decent people.

...at any cost. Brainwashing was only one of their earlier projects. They've moved on to subtler methods, like programs that condition you to eat healthy and avoid violence (with unintended side effects). That said, Horizon was initially founded to be a force for good, and for a time, they were.  Problem was, they didn't consider that Horizon employees, executives and wageslaves alike, could be capable of doing bad just like any person. Gary Cline may very well exemplify this fact. The Twilight Horizon is probably your best source of information on the beginnings of a possible downward spiral into genuine evil.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Nath on <10-17-13/0722:21>
(3rd) Mistuhama
Too closely linked to the Yakuza.  Tend to be fairly Ruthless.  Experimented on Technomancers

(9th) Wuxing
Low profile.  May even be a good corp... but most likely they just slip under the radar
Wuxing connection to the Triads is as strong as MCT connection to the Yakuza. It's just that the Triads presence in Hong Kong is so pervasive that they don't need something as obvious as stockholding and board seats.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Lorebane24 on <10-17-13/0741:40>
Horizon is batdrek insane, not evil.  Of course, part of their being insane is that they don't know what evil is, so thusly...

I keep hearing this, but why?!  What did they do?  What about them is so crazy?  I wanna know!

In short, they want all of (meta)humanity to be good, decent people.

...at any cost. Brainwashing was only one of their earlier projects. They've moved on to subtler methods, like programs that condition you to eat healthy and avoid violence (with unintended side effects). That said, Horizon was initially founded to be a force for good, and for a time, they were.  Problem was, they didn't consider that Horizon employees, executives and wageslaves alike, could be capable of doing bad just like any person. Gary Cline may very well exemplify this fact. The Twilight Horizon is probably your best source of information on the beginnings of a possible downward spiral into genuine evil.

That is delicious.  What about Evo?  What's their brand of evil?
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Crunch on <10-17-13/1000:29>
Ares
Only because of the Bugs.  Still, happy to start wars to increase arms sales.  Otherwise, mostly harmless...

Isn't Ares pretty much the UCAS/CAS military industrial complex as well as the cops in much of the country? Even without the bugs this is the company that North American conspiracy theorists have the most reason to fear after Aztechnology.

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Renraku
ignoring the Deus incident, fairly harmless.  Have started kidnapping CAS politicians for some reason.  General rumours are that they have been 'too quiet'.

The Deus incident was the result of a long set of AI experiments that had repurcussions beyond the arcology. Aren't they also a driving force behind the new Matrix GOD squad?

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Shiawise
Most harmless of the corps.  More dangerious to itself then others.

Haven't they had a number of reactor meltdowns and toxic spills?
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Mirikon on <10-17-13/1103:03>
The Azzies are definitely the most evil fraggers in the corporate world. As for who's got the second spot, I'd put NeoNET and MCT tied, for their fun and games experimenting on technomancers and other digital entities. All the megas are bad on that count, but MCT and NeoNET are the most visible (and most active) of those. Hell, let's do this top ten style, yeah?

Mirikon's Top 10 Most Evil Megacorps:
10: Wuxing - Sure, they've got questionable things, like any corp over a certain size, but they're not nearly as bad as the other contenders on the list.
9: Saeder-Krupp - Surprisingly, Saeder-Krupp doesn't really bring much of the ultimate evil, especially not as much as other megas. They are environmental nightmares, and their draconian policies (sorry for the pun) are the things of legend, but that isn't 'evil' so much as the standard megacorporate ruthlessness.
8: Renraku - Like SK, Renraku's got a reputation for ruthlessness that is the megacorporate norm, but as far as 'evil'? I just don't see it for the most part, with the exception of their lingering racism (and by lingering racism, I mean "just as much as it used to be").
7: Shiawase - What happens when you take a family feud and make it a megacorp? The answer is Shiawase. Constant infighting and backstabbing, but they don't engage as much in the truly nasty drek. Or at least they don't get caught as much. They're too busy turning their knives on eachother to do the true nasty, IMO.
6: Evo - They've been doing e-ghost experiments as well, but not as bad as NeoNET. The 'EvoPeople' thing is a bit freaky, though, which makes me uneasy about their true motives.
5: Horizon - They creep me way the frag out. They aren't as out there as others further down the list, but the whole deal about trying to actively control people to be like something out of Stepford Wives or Invasion of the Body Snatchers makes me want to see them go down in flames. Especially now that they're going into zealot mode. Zealots who say "Horizon is good. What is good for Horizon must be good," scare the hell out of me. Give me SK over these guys any day.
4: Ares - The 'all-American' megacorp has become a hive. The guy in charge is under the delusion that he can control the situation. This isn't just like Jurassic Park writ large. It is like someone seeing the dinosaurs wrecking havoc in a major North American city, and then saying, "You know what we need? More dinosaurs!"
3: NeoNET - One of the leaders in metahuman experimentation during the technomancer scare, and current king of experimenting on e-ghosts, the only thing that keeps them from being higher ranked is that the various factions will burn the place to the ground to keep their rivals from getting ahead.
2: Mitsuhama - I'll give the edge to MCT, if only because they've been bringing the evil longer, and they're utterly unrepentant about it. Plus, coming up with technomancer cyborgs just rubs me the wrong way.
1: Aztechnology - When you are up to so much nasty drek that a great dragon has to blow himself up to stop you from bringing the apocalypse, and you've started burning holes in the manasphere all over your country, you've safely locked the top spot.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Nath on <10-17-13/1351:41>
Isn't Ares pretty much the UCAS/CAS military industrial complex as well as the cops in much of the country?
They used to be, but Conspiracy Theories downplayed that angle a lot, making the current Colloton administration a sworn enemy of Ares, with the willingness and the ability to sever links and contracts between Ares and the DoD.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Black on <10-17-13/1834:46>
(3rd) Mistuhama
Too closely linked to the Yakuza.  Tend to be fairly Ruthless.  Experimented on Technomancers

(9th) Wuxing
Low profile.  May even be a good corp... but most likely they just slip under the radar
Wuxing connection to the Triads is as strong as MCT connection to the Yakuza. It's just that the Triads presence in Hong Kong is so pervasive that they don't need something as obvious as stockholding and board seats.

True. Probably all the earilier edition stuff where they(Mitstuhama) tend to be 'not very nice'.  But I would still keep the same ratings based on human experiementation on Technomancers.  Not sure if Wuxing has done anything at a similar level.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Black on <10-17-13/1835:52>
Renraku
ignoring the Deus incident, fairly harmless.  Have started kidnapping CAS politicians for some reason.  General rumours are that they have been 'too quiet'.
It's strange to me that Renraku was always one of the main Bad Guys in the videmo games. Also, they allied with the UB before Cermak, where they were using homeless folks as hosts/test subjects.
I don't remember the reason they felt the need to ally with a non-profit, but there you go.
I thought it was Crash Cart which was working with the bugs?
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Black on <10-17-13/1858:27>
Renraku
ignoring the Deus incident, fairly harmless.  Have started kidnapping CAS politicians for some reason.  General rumours are that they have been 'too quiet'.

The Deus incident was the result of a long set of AI experiments that had repurcussions beyond the arcology. Aren't they also a driving force behind the new Matrix GOD squad?
Ah... but that was back when they didn't understand AI and they saw them as something you owned, built, and pulled apart as required.  The results... were unexpected.  More accident then evil.  Perhaps arrogant, foolish, but not really experiment on humans or make deals with known threats.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Mirikon on <10-17-13/2104:50>
Renraku
ignoring the Deus incident, fairly harmless.  Have started kidnapping CAS politicians for some reason.  General rumours are that they have been 'too quiet'.
It's strange to me that Renraku was always one of the main Bad Guys in the videmo games. Also, they allied with the UB before Cermak, where they were using homeless folks as hosts/test subjects.
I don't remember the reason they felt the need to ally with a non-profit, but there you go.
I thought it was Crash Cart which was working with the bugs?
Renraku was involved with Project Hope, I believe.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Black on <10-17-13/2114:29>
Sorry, your right.  Renraku was using Project Hope to experiment on the participants.  But I don't think they knew about the bugs.

Alas, this puts them in the same camp as the other corps who have experimented on unwilling tesssst sssubjectss.  Sorry, swallowed a bug.

Soon it will be hard to name a corp which has crossed serious ethical lines on human experimentation...
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Reaver on <10-17-13/2328:07>
Sorry, your right.  Renraku was using Project Hope to experiment on the participants.  But I don't think they knew about the bugs.

Alas, this puts them in the same camp as the other corps who have experimented on unwilling tesssst sssubjectss.  Sorry, swallowed a bug.

Soon it will be hard to name a corp which has crossed serious ethical lines on human experimentation...


IS there a Corp that hasn't played "doctor" on metahumans??? I am willing to bet they all have. we just havn't heard about it.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Lorebane24 on <10-17-13/2349:22>

Mirikon's Top 10 Most Evil Megacorps:
6: Evo - They've been doing e-ghost experiments as well, but not as bad as NeoNET. The 'EvoPeople' thing is a bit freaky, though, which makes me uneasy about their true motives.

Oh my.  What is this?
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Reaver on <10-18-13/0122:26>

Mirikon's Top 10 Most Evil Megacorps:
6: Evo - They've been doing e-ghost experiments as well, but not as bad as NeoNET. The 'EvoPeople' thing is a bit freaky, though, which makes me uneasy about their true motives.

Oh my.  What is this?

It's Evo's Transhumanist vision of the future!

where man and machine are indistinguishable from each other.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <10-18-13/0239:08>
I'd define Evo's transhumanist agenda as being less 'where does man end and machine begin', and more as 'when you can become 'someone else' at will, then we are all human'.  They're not trying to meld man and machine, they're trying to blur the distinctions between metaraces.  What, the argument goes, is the effective difference between a strong Troll (STR 9) and a very strong cyberneticized human (STR 9)?

As for 'sliding scale of SR Ebil!!!', well - I don't have a 1-10 list.  All of them are nasty, wicked, and/or corrupt in their own way.  Aztechnology does blood magic and all that?  Yeah, but they provide 70% of what most characters eat in Seattle, and when you get down to it, they make good products.  How often, after all, does blood magic affect the average citizen of Seattle?  As often as they see the Great Dragon Lofwyr, perhaps, whose policies and leverage as the largest corporation on the planet are his personal crow-bar to not only move the world, but also to beat the shit out of anyone trying to stop him from doing so?

None of them are 'harmless'.  I was, however, especially amused at the continuing viewpoint that Shiawase's lethality is focussed inwards - which has essentially never been the case.  Oh, everyone goggles at the Family taking shots at each other, but some of the hardest gut-punches for or against the shadows has come from - drumroll please - Shiawase.  Shiawase arm-wrestled for extraterritoriality and won.  Shiawase built data analysis (MFID, kids) into a lethally elegant form of assassination with or without a bullet.  Shiawase was the essential core behind Nihon Uber Alles and the push in Japan against metahumans, and that core remains, despite the Empress' work and the face-job they've been doing to make them seem nicer outside Japan.

Do I 'like' one the most?  Yeah, I like Evo the best; IMO Buttercup has to play politics in order to get enough leverage to be able to expose the crap she doesn't like and then wipe it out, but again IMO, she's one of the few top-end movers-and-shakers that is out-and-out working less for great power and control and more for great good.  I grant, though, that sometimes 'great good' goes through some deep muck, but hey ...
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: CanRay on <10-18-13/0242:41>
"Transhumanism is about how technology will eventually help us overcome the problems that have, up until now, been endemic to human nature. Cyberpunk is about how technology won't." — Stephen Lea Sheppard
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <10-18-13/0254:16>
Which works in a world where there's nothing but humans, CanRay, and I agree that part of Evo's agenda is exactly that 'overcom(ing) the problems ... endemic to human nature' - but my reading leads me to draw the conclusion above - that Evo is specifically attempting to take down the general 'us vs. them' barriers being built, consciously or unconsciously, between the various metahuman races - and even between them and the other sentient races.  After all, pay enough to Evo and you could find out what it's like to be a dragon ... or at least something draconic.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Magnaric on <10-18-13/1004:58>
Evo has always struck me as not necessarily the "best" of the AAA Megacorps, but perhaps one of the least malevolent. At their top levels, (IE Buttercup), they seem to be genuinely interested in Metahumanity's future progress, be it on a social or technological/biological level. Granted, sometimes that means they perform somewhat...invasive and radical experiments, but with them I always saw it as more or an "ends justifies the means" scenario, with the Ends in that case being trying to improve all people to a higher ideal(what that ideal is depends on who you talk to).

Now, that isn't to say they can't be as ruthless as the other megacorps; they absolutely can. Just they're usually a bit more polite and honest about it. If you read some of the fluff from Jackpointers about them, they say that an EVO Johnson will still stab you in the back if he has to or is ordered to, but it never feels like it's something he wants to do out of spite, and he'll usually apologize first.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <10-20-13/1745:42>
Agreed with MCT as number 2. I don't think anyone will disagree with Azzies as 1. MCT also is infamous for the Zero Zones and in general just shooting to kill, torturing prisoners, and the like. They have zero tolerance for shadowrunners who don't follow their orders to the letter. It's common practice for their Mr. Johnsons to call themselves "Mr. Bunraku", indicating their general view of shadowrunners, that they are all whores. They're just huge dicks in general, and it's quite an accomplishment of Aztechnology to surpass them.

Crashcart was pretty much owned by the bugs, but I don't think it was tied to a Mega at the time. A Wasp shaman was running it and using it as part of the bug conspiracy. It's in the 2XS novel. It was later bought by a Mega I believe, but that was after the big FBI investigation took down the UB, and I think Crashcart was wrapped up in that.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Black on <10-20-13/1755:48>
Pretty sure Yamatetsu(sp?) owned Crashed Cart and a bug-possed executive was involved.  Even then Evo was changing the nature of metahuman kind... Integrated Services Division...
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: SnackerBob on <10-20-13/1814:53>
Incidentally, when did Damien Knight go from the smartest man in the room to the stupidest egomaniac on the planet?
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <10-20-13/1916:16>
Quote
Pretty sure Yamatetsu(sp?) owned Crashed Cart and a bug-possed executive was involved.  Even then Evo was changing the nature of metahuman kind... Integrated Services Division...
It did, but it wasn't a Mega yet. I guess it never lost Crashcart, even despite the FBI investigation. They were implanting 2XS chips in important people using Crashcart.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Reaver on <10-20-13/1916:57>
Incidentally, when did Damien Knight go from the smartest man in the room to the stupidest egomaniac on the planet?

the line between madness and genius is often razor thin...

throw in Ego, power, and position......

Damien Knight is ruthless, brilliant, driven..... and probably insane.....
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Black on <10-20-13/1947:57>
Maybe Damien's getting old and is starting to be concerned with his own mortality.  Maybe his just getting tired of being the most powerful mundane in the world and yet still feeling inattiquate when compared to Dragons etc?  His long been looking for the edge he needs against the awakened...
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: martinchaen on <10-20-13/2005:55>
To be fair, we don't have a lot of insight into Mr. Knight's thought processes; could it be that he's not the one and/or only SOB in Ares that wants to mess around with bugs?

The same goes for all the mega's; are any of them, except SK by way of Lofwyr, under the control of a single individual? And just like with SK, I doubt that Lofwyr and other controlling entities exercise 100% control of every single project undertaken by the parent and child corps.

Seems to me they're all into various "Bad Shit" (TM), so to me the viewpoint of the observer determines how "evil" the corps are, one way or another...
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: SnackerBob on <10-20-13/2006:28>
On a side note, I'm less afraid of bugs attempting revenge on Ares than I was of bugs with no human viewpoint. The bugs used to be ultimately defined by their instinct to propagate their species. They used metahuman resources as tools to efficiently achieve that end, but that was the extent of it.
Even attempting more good merges was a necessary compromise for survival. Attempting to attack a megacorp doesn't aid in the instinct for survival much. There are hives all over the world that Ares can't find, and ultimately doesn't much care to find. Move on, multiply, and stop with the petty vengeance.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Reaver on <10-20-13/2119:50>
Vengeance is a survival trait. In insects like bees, when they sting something, the stinger detaches, killing the bee, but also releasing a hormone which drives other bees into a frenzy, swarming the original stung target. dozens, even hundreds will die in an effort to drive off or kill the originally stung target. All to "Protect" the hive and the queen...

Here we have Ares, hunting and killing insect spirits (and experimenting on them!)... so it actually makes sense that intelligent insect spirits, would seek out Ares people they believe to be a threat and seek to kill or drive them off to protect the queen.... or themselves....

and that, should scare the drek right out of the runners.... for now you have insect spirits, not only trying to reproduce... but ACTIVLY seeking out threats to their existence.....
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Black on <10-20-13/2137:57>
Really is an invasion of the body snatchers type thing.

Damien Knight may not be in full control of Ares, but he has been portrayed as being well aware of the project.  Not sure if his aware that Ares is no longer in full control though...

Damien Knight has appeared in the setting fiction numerious times (for example, the Dragon Soul trilogy), so his portrayel as an arrogant, driven achiver is well documented.  His relationship with Big D, his focus on tech which neutralises magical threats, his focus of enhancing the body through tech (which he makes great use of personally), its all there.

I personally think he was looking for an edge against the next magical threat (a marketable, profitable edge idealy), and he thought he had the bugs beaten.  They were a resource, not a threat, something to be used in his endless struggle to give the mundane man (himself mostly) the edge against the large number of awakened threats out there...

Given his personal experiences with Crash 1.0, I'm actually surprised that Ares has let the ball slip on dealing with technomancers and A.I....
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: SnackerBob on <10-20-13/2150:10>
Rationally, I get your point. And I don't actually know what sticks in my craw with this change of tactic.

Looking back at all of the various plots over the years, an inhuman  morality system has been the norm. Dragons, AIs,bugs, Horrors, probably Sybil... None of them work on a level that we can really 'get'. To me, that made them more terrifying. I can understand mammals mostly. I work off of a similar instinctual drive. Insects... They work off of different rules. Intelligent insects... Man, I don't even know. I want them to work off of a completely alien philosophy of vengeance. Not sabotaging a type of gun for a PR attack. What insect would do that? I don't want my insects doing something that MCT would do.
Looking at Insects, I want them to act like the totem. Wasp attacks through numbers and force, Beetle  is aggressive but adaptive, Firefly is passive, Ant buries and survives, Roach hides and looks for optimal growth. I wish Roach was as prevalent in canon as Ant has been. But that's my thing.

I dunno. I'm talking myself through a lot of the changes from 2ND to 5th nowadays. I'm sure that I'll eventually come around to the changes, but until then, I discuss them.

For the record, I prefer 4th metaplot to nearly all of 3Rd.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Reaver on <10-20-13/2209:38>
Rationally, I get your point. And I don't actually know what sticks in my craw with this change of tactic.

Looking back at all of the various plots over the years, an inhuman  morality system has been the norm. Dragons, AIs,bugs, Horrors, probably Sybil... None of them work on a level that we can really 'get'. To me, that made them more terrifying. I can understand mammals mostly. I work off of a similar instinctual drive. Insects... They work off of different rules. Intelligent insects... Man, I don't even know. I want them to work off of a completely alien philosophy of vengeance. Not sabotaging a type of gun for a PR attack. What insect would do that? I don't want my insects doing something that MCT would do.
Looking at Insects, I want them to act like the totem. Wasp attacks through numbers and force, Beetle  is aggressive but adaptive, Firefly is passive, Ant buries and survives, Roach hides and looks for optimal growth. I wish Roach was as prevalent in canon as Ant has been. But that's my thing.

I dunno. I'm talking myself through a lot of the changes from 2ND to 5th nowadays. I'm sure that I'll eventually come around to the changes, but until then, I discuss them.

For the record, I prefer 4th metaplot to nearly all of 3Rd.

Not sure if the insects had much to do with the failure of the Excalibur rifle or not.... We know that it was designed to fire a magical payload to combat astral threats.... so maybe this was just Ares trying to break the rules of magic..... and after spending billions working on the project with no luck, the Bugs decided to use their influence to have it released for sale as a way to hurt Ares....

(Which would go a long way to the proposition that alchemy can not be used to create magical bullets... after all if the brightest minds at Ares can work for years and not get it to work.... how could one mage in his basement???)
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Mirikon on <10-21-13/1420:28>
Actually, not quite true, Reaver. CrashCart was started by Yamatetsu back when they were in Japan as an answer/competitor to DocWagon. The one of the guys in charge of the Seattle branch was a Wasp shaman, using 2XS, CrashCart, and of course the UB to find strong hosts. Yamatetsu became EVO when they moved to Vladivostok later. So CrashCart has always been EVO.
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Reaver on <10-21-13/1447:59>
Actually, not quite true, Reaver. CrashCart was started by Yamatetsu back when they were in Japan as an answer/competitor to DocWagon. The one of the guys in charge of the Seattle branch was a Wasp shaman, using 2XS, CrashCart, and of course the UB to find strong hosts. Yamatetsu became EVO when they moved to Vladivostok later. So CrashCart has always been EVO.

:D

Never said anything on Crashcart cause, I don't know anything about them :D

But I an sure Black  is thankful for the info :D
Title: Re: AAA agendas and sliding scale of evil?
Post by: Nath on <10-21-13/1520:22>
It did, but it wasn't a Mega yet. I guess it never lost Crashcart, even despite the FBI investigation. They were implanting 2XS chips in important people using Crashcart.
Yamatetsu has been a "prime megacorporation" with AAA rating and a justice on the Corporate Court since 2042, ten years before the events depicted in 2XS, and qualified as a mere megacorporation for even longer.