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Adrenaline Surge and problematic play

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Critias

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« Reply #15 on: <07-25-11/1608:48> »
Anyone that's relying on Adrenaline Surge to be fast and Improved Attribute: Agility to be lethal...isn't

That's a character so far from optimization -- albeit a characterful one that's probably fun to play -- that there really, really, has to be other issues at work, here.  There are rules being misunderstood, there's a GM who's not doing something right, there are other players who maybe dislike the guy's personality instead of his character's abilities, or something else is at work, here.

Teknodragon

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« Reply #16 on: <07-26-11/0153:59> »
I think the character also has about 80+ karma built up. And, there is also some background resentment on my part (character aimed a helicopter gunship at a previous character of mine and blew our mission).

Judging by the drift of the thread, the positive quality is not an issue, then.

To my knowledge, everything seems legal, aside from possible abuse of Edge. It looks like in part, the difficulty of the 'run is not being adjusted for the presence of a combat-optimized nigh-prime-runner. I also have to be careful about when and how I bring up rules mis-interpretations, due to my near-eidetic memory of the rules of the game, outside of magic and a few esoteric, seldom-used ones.

Oh, I think I mis-stated the ability... it is the one where the Adept has to roll to see how many hits' worth the attribute improves, then soaks later.  Err... come to think of it, I don't recall him rolling any soak rolls (and I was sitting next to the player in question) the last few games...
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Critias

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« Reply #17 on: <07-26-11/0231:35> »
Boosting Agility is a lore more effective (where Power Points are concerned) than outright increasing it, yes, and leaves him more points that he might have invested in other combat-y stuff.  That makes him make a little more sense, at least.

Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #18 on: <07-26-11/0602:06> »
Attribute Boost also requires a Simple Action to activate (SR4A, 195), only lasts a few Combat Turns, and the user soaks Drain at the end.  So during at least some (if not all, depending on the GM) combats, activating that power will take up the first Simple Action of the adept's first IP.  So he'd only get two shots (his second Simple Action with two guns) on his first pass.

In a surprise situation, or if he has a Combat Turn to prepare, that's another story.  But if he's pretending he has it on all the time, technically he should be making those Drain rolls every few turns.  If his Willpower + Body pool is high enough, it might not be a serious issue, but there's always the chance he glitches.  Boost was not meant for constant use...and it's incompatible with any other augmentations except IPA.
Guiding principle for game balance:  Players avoid underpowered stuff and flock to overpowered stuff.
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Zilfer

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« Reply #19 on: <08-10-11/2355:16> »
From what I recall, the other player's character is a human adept, 5 or 6 edge, with about level 3 Increased Agility, and a skill of probably 6+spec. He adds Edge to the pool before splitting it, giving a pool well into the teens for each pistol after the split. APDS against heavy targets, S&S against what he doesn't want to kill. Oh, and he's also built up his Exotic Weapon: Laser pretty well to use a pair of Redlines. Pretty well-optimized for short-ranged combat, which... is about all that is typically encountered.

I think he might be getting a little too much mileage out of his Edge expenditure.

Spending Edge (SR4A, 74):
Quote
You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again.

The good news (for him) is that the Edge dice aren't split.  The bad news (for him) is that the Edge dice are applied only to one shot, since the Edge expenditure applies only to one test.  Even though he's combining two shots into a Single Action, it's still two tests (specifically, two Opposed Tests) with the modified pool.  That also means that if he's spending only one Edge, he's only exploding sixes on one shot.  If he wants the exploding sixes on all four shots, he has to spend four Edge (one per shot).

And he's probably not as optimized as he could be, if he's using the Increased Physical Attribute power instead of Muscle Toner bioware for Agility.  He could have up to 4 levels of Muscle Toner for 0.2 Essence per level, instead of the power that's 0.75/level (or 1.5/level above his natural max).  But that's probably a discussion for another thread. :)

Aren't you technically splitting 1 dice pool when you are shooting two guns? If so why isn't the edge added and then split however the guy wants it to go? I mean your using 1 simple action to shoot both of your guns, and you want to use edge on that action. So you get the edge for that action, and then there is the rule for splitting them if you shoot both guns that action. Split the dice pool and 6's explode.

Explain why that shouldn't be please?

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Medicineman

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« Reply #20 on: <08-11-11/0242:21> »
Quote
You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test

You spend the Edge for a test.
 only after You've split the Pool thats when You make the test and thats where You can spend the Edge on

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« Last Edit: <08-11-11/0243:57> by Medicineman »
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Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #21 on: <08-11-11/0728:48> »
Like Medicineman said, you spend a point of Edge for one test.  In this case you are using one action and splitting one dice pool, but you're performing two tests with it, since each shot is a separate Opposed Test.
Guiding principle for game balance:  Players avoid underpowered stuff and flock to overpowered stuff.
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Zilfer

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« Reply #22 on: <08-11-11/1414:55> »
Like Medicineman said, you spend a point of Edge for one test.  In this case you are using one action and splitting one dice pool, but you're performing two tests with it, since each shot is a separate Opposed Test.

Guess that makes sense. O.o'

Does that mean if I burst fired and tried to hit multiple targets within that burst fire it would be the same? Even though it's still the same simple action of me shooting said assualt rifle?
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #23 on: <08-11-11/1659:05> »
Does that mean if I burst fired and tried to hit multiple targets within that burst fire it would be the same? Even though it's still the same simple action of me shooting said assualt rifle?

Yes, because each target is a separate Opposed Test.  On the other hand, full AoEs (like grenades and area spells) are a single test with your result compared with each target's roll.
Guiding principle for game balance:  Players avoid underpowered stuff and flock to overpowered stuff.
Missions Freelancer (SRM 04-10 Romero & Juliette, SRM 05-01 Chasin' the Wind, SRM 06-06 Falling Angels, PM-02 A Holy Piece of Wetwork)

Zilfer

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« Reply #24 on: <08-12-11/0101:23> »
I'll have to keep that in mind because that sucks. XD Aw well, you live and learn. Thanks for clarifying that.
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

Xzylvador

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« Reply #25 on: <08-13-11/0357:17> »
Just a minor addition: Don't allow the adept to buy hits on the drain test. Buying hits is always optional and allowed by GM's permission only, it's there so that dragon with 50 dice spellcasting or that 60 body+armor aircraft carrier don't spent half an hour rolling dice.
Agility Boost 1 with a decent magic stat gives an average of +2 agility and only 1S drain. Many players try to get around the drain by saying "I'll just buy the 1 hit needed to soak it.". Allowing that would mean they can walk around with a permanently boosted agility without any risk.
Make him roll for the drain, even it he'll resist it 9 times out of 10, there's always a he doesn't get hits or glitches.

Gleeful

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« Reply #26 on: <08-17-11/2306:33> »
As the GM in question on the main mission where the GS took out combat--he did not end it. However, there was another player who also was very well optimized with weapons, and between the two, the single badguy WAS taken out quite quickly.

That said, the gunslinger player has discovered he was misusing armor stacking, and a couple other rules, and is now much much more in line with his fellow runners.

The really sad thing, is that Tecknodragon, above, instead of being 'useless' made the run amazingly more efficient due to his use of drones. On the one hand, since he has made a new character, I do not need to worry about the stinking drones anymore. On the other--the team is now without a rigger. He may discover his rigger char was more advantageous to the party than he thought. Shooting bad guys is not the be-all end-all in Missions.

sehmerus

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« Reply #27 on: <09-15-11/1708:10> »
Greetings it is I the Adept Gunslinger for wich the discussion depicts. and I just want to explain a couple things.

1- I am relitively new to shadowrun, but this is the first character i ever MADE BY MYSELF. and not using a premade "archtype" i built him from the ground up and if i knew what i know now about the world and game now i might have made him different then but hes like a cancer that is growing on me so i been sticking with him (getting close to the prime runner karma now) for better or worse. I specifically made him teh GSA because when we as a group first started to do Missions i wanted to play the "combat guy" something i never played before (before this my only 2 characters were both STOCK Decker (old edition when i didnt know how to play the game i just rolled dice when i told the dm what i wanted to do) to 4th edition STOCK combat mage. So i didnt make him to BE cheesey, But Cheese is what he became. and the challenge i have been having with him is putting him in situations where he has to use his other skills (what few he has) the idea was never to "hog" the combat, but to dominate it. meaning in a group of bad guys i would ask the group who they wanted me to take out  and focus on them while the group worked on the other.  In the Mission that Tekky is refering to had a LOT of "one man/creature" combat and i was one of 2 gunslingers at the table (and we were playing with 8 players and only playing at TR 4) plus i was rolling INSANELY good, i dont remember ever rolling less than 8 hots, even when i recoiled down to 9 dice pool for my follow up double taps.  So this mission whatever i didnt kill the other slinger was sure to kill. it wasnt meant to be selfish it was a job.

2- ther has been alot of rules either misunderstood or simply not used as im learning the game and finding things out that i havent been implimeting correctly until just recently  (thanks mostly to hero labs shadowrun character builder)  mostly agility boost, encomberance and edge pool usage.

3- my laser pistols have never been as insane (dicepool wise) as my pistols are (-5 dice) due to having to learn a "exotic weapon skill" instead of using my pistols skill. but you gotta love the damage when the redlines penetrate -half armor.

4- as it stands now after being "fixed" by the Hero labs character creator. my Non modified pistols dice pool is 14, and my non modified dice pool for the redlines is 9. (i shouldnt say non modified since that is including encumberance negatives)  with that I can use agility boost (i can roll 8 dice but can only boost a max of 4 more due to human limitations) and i can bump edge for an extra 5 dice (i almost always use edge in my first 2 shots) so my normal dice pools are 19-23 for pistols (with a dicepool cap of 23)  and 14-18 for redline lasers (with dicepool cap of 20)

5- having the encumberance rules applied forced me to spend karma to increses his body rather than going to increasing his magic rating to 7 as what im working on now. when i get it to 7 ill gain one power point wich i can use to give him ascesing, and i hope to save up enouph to get him a weapon foci so he can melee some spirits when needed to.

ill try and post my character sheet later tonight if i get a chance (just be gentle in picking it apart as i mentioned im still kinda new)






Critias

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« Reply #28 on: <09-15-11/1725:11> »
I wouldn't sweat it, man.  A die pool of 9-14 or so for a primary combat dude?  That's nothing to feel guilty/"cheesy" about.  I think the issue may stem more from combats not being challenging enough in general, as opposed to your character dominating them -- if you've got 8 PCs all shooting at a single opponent, of course the guy's likely to drop! 

Welcome to the boards, and I'm just glad to see someone havin' fun with an adept.  :)

sehmerus

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« Reply #29 on: <09-15-11/1832:57> »
Oh i forgot to mention the Drain issue, I have always rolled soak, but because i misunderstood the way the power works it never had become an issue,  I actually originally played it were the  number of hits was the number of hours the boost was in effect. and in alot of times this was a handicap for me (when i rolled 1 hit on a boost i played that simple 1 for a WHOLE game hour, instead of a turn, and then just soak and then re-roll my next boost attempt.) After finding out i was playing it wrong it actually benefits me doing it by turns, because of the fact that if i roll 1 or 2 then i can re-try it on the next turn or two and get a better roll. were before if i rolled a 1 or a 2 i was screwed. this also explains why i never needed to use a simple action "in combat" to boost because i would boost before combat started (usually when the theme music changed to "danger music lol"

as of now i have been  forgetting to remember to boost on my first turn or if at all (got to find away to remind myself LOL) and I still Do soak drain, but alot of times it doesnt play into importance because in jobs were we finish the final fight the Dm's sometime like to just wrap it all up. and so it doesnt seem like doing drain is needed since the mission is technically over, even tho in game my character still would have to drive back to the Johnson or whatever. but either way the soak is stun  wich is healed up after the mission is anyway so in the instances were we end after the combat (or do a quick wrap up) i dont see a need to soak for stun that will just be healed again, if it iwas a matter of life or death then i could see it  being a differnt  scenario and would absolutely roll for it .  but if im at full health looking at a max stun of 4, i dont see what it matters if the game is over if i just overlook the drain. and lately ALOT of the missions have been ending in that manner. so i dont see a problem with it nor does the Dm's seem to think it matters in that instance.

Also we been p[aying missions and ever since the mission in wich tekky speaks of, our table rating has skyrocketed to 6  for almost every mission now, and I as a GSA can certanly notice the difference. in the current mission we are playing my character even got knocked the $&%^ OUT due to some nasty gunfire. (once again i forgot to boost my agility on the first turn and took a lot of fire on the second turn. cuz even tho i have the adrenaline surge  (wich only works for the first combat pass) my ini is only 10