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5E - Addiction

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Tarislar

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« on: <05-05-14/1548:00> »
I was wondering if someone could explain the Addiction tests to me because as I read them I'm not making sense of it.

Maybe take 2 examples.

Something minor like "Longhaul" & something major like "Jazz"

I'm not getting how the test timer works w/ #/frequency of uses.

Any help would be appreciated, thank you.

Poindexter

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« Reply #1 on: <05-05-14/1611:13> »
admittedly, i could use this as well.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #2 on: <05-05-14/1630:11> »
I once posted my interpretation of how addiction tests work, but sure, I can try some examples.

  • Runner A uses Jazz: he is now in "week 1" of having used Jazz. At Addiction Rating 8, the end of week (11-8=) 3 is set as addiction test point.
    At the end of week 1, the threshold is unaffected.
    He doesn't use Jazz during week 2, so the threshold goes down by 1, to 2.
    He doesn't use Jazz during week 3, so the threshold goes down by 1, to 1.
    Since it's the end of week 3, he makes addiction tests: since Jazz's Addiction Type is "Both", he has to make both a Logic + Willpower (1) test, and Body + Willpower (1) test. If he fails either one, he gains an addiction level. Let's assume he passes.
    He doesn't use Jazz during week 4, so the threshold goes down by 1, to 0 - he's now in the clear.
    • If runner A had used Jazz in week 2, 3 or 4, the threshold would have reset back to 3 at the end of said week.
  • Runner B uses Long Haul: he is now in "week 1" of having used Long Haul. At Addiction Rating 2, the end of week (11-2=) 9 is set as addiction test point.
    At the end of week 1, the threshold is unaffected.
    He uses Long Haul during week 2, so at the end of week 2, the threshold is reset back to its original value (1).
    He uses Long Haul during week 3, so at the end of week 3, the threshold is reset back to its original value (1).
    He uses Long Haul during week 4, so at the end of week 4, the threshold is reset back to its original value (1).
    He uses Long Haul during week 5, so at the end of week 5, the threshold is reset back to its original value (1).
    He uses Long Haul during week 6, so at the end of week 6, the threshold is reset back to its original value (1).
    He uses Long Haul during week 7, so at the end of week 7, the threshold is reset back to its original value (1).
    He uses Long Haul during week 8, so at the end of week 8, the threshold is reset back to its original value (1).
    He doesn't use Long Haul during week 9, so the threshold goes down by 1, to 0 - he's now in the clear, and right in time to avoid making the addiction test.



Also, Elektrycerze3 made a flowchart based on my interpretation (the "wait 2 weeks" is because the threshold isn't affected in week 1, and you won't make an addiction test unless you're dealing with 10+ total Force of power foci active at the same time - alternatively, you can just use "wait until the end of the week" instead, and answer "Did you use the drug this week?" with "Yes"):
« Last Edit: <05-05-14/1636:07> by ZeConster »

Namikaze

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« Reply #3 on: <05-06-14/0205:05> »
Does your addiction test time not change if you use it within its duration?
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: <05-06-14/0849:10> »
No. The only thing that using impacts is the reset of the threshold. The duration until you test again won't change. Sole possible exception is Focus Addiction, which is a tricky beast.
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Agonar

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« Reply #5 on: <05-06-14/1433:21> »
Yeah, I don't like this for a couple reasons

1) It doesn't take frequency of use into account.  Someone who uses 1 dose of Kamikaze per week has just as much addiction risk as someone who uses 10 doses per week (or more)
2) Even very casual users of some very minor drugs risks the eventual progression into Burnout stages, and then reduction in attributes until they fall into a coma.  Most people can handle 1 coffee per day, yet under SR5 rules, eventually addiction tests will be failed, and the coffee drinker will fall into a coma.

So, because of these, I came up with my own House rule.  Basically, the Threshold becomes an opposed dice pool instead, the Addiction Rating instead turns into a measure of how often you can use something before it starts getting bonus dice to oppose your addiction test.  And, The GM can usually go with Bought Hits, but can use rolls when needed, or when the opposition has enough dice to buy an equal amount of hits as the player.

So, with this change, casual users (specially of minor substances) rarely risk coma, but binge users are more easily addicted to things than the rare user of a substance.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #6 on: <05-06-14/1709:41> »
Or you could just limit the maximum addiction level based on the Addiction Rating.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <05-06-14/1843:40> »
2) Even very casual users of some very minor drugs risks the eventual progression into Burnout stages
No they don't. Not if they simply not use every now and then. It would take AGES for some Drugs to ever become a problem. If you drink Soykaf ALL the time, you'd be rolling once every 10 weeks. Let's assume Soykaf is Psysiological, so Body+Willpower to resist, that's 6 dice for normal people. 2/3 chance to succeed, so once every 30 weeks you'd fail. So you'd have to be dosing on Soykaf for 2.5 years average in a row without ever taking a break to start hitting Burnout. If you're a runner with decent stats, it's 90%, so 100 weeks per failed test. That's 8 years average of constant Soykaf drinking before Burnout. That's CONSTANT use. Casual users have only very small risk of ever hitting an addiction level, nevermind all.

Besides, you're ignoring a VERY important aspect: The drugs are supposed to be risky, because if you don't have the risk from continued usage, everyone would be doing it. There's a system requirement that there's an actual risk involved even for casual users.

Also, buying hits on a crucial roll? Not cool.
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Agonar

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« Reply #8 on: <05-06-14/1932:47> »
2) Even very casual users of some very minor drugs risks the eventual progression into Burnout stages
No they don't. Not if they simply not use every now and then. It would take AGES for some Drugs to ever become a problem. If you drink Soykaf ALL the time, you'd be rolling once every 10 weeks. Let's assume Soykaf is Psysiological, so Body+Willpower to resist, that's 6 dice for normal people. 2/3 chance to succeed, so once every 30 weeks you'd fail. So you'd have to be dosing on Soykaf for 2.5 years average in a row without ever taking a break to start hitting Burnout. If you're a runner with decent stats, it's 90%, so 100 weeks per failed test. That's 8 years average of constant Soykaf drinking before Burnout. That's CONSTANT use. Casual users have only very small risk of ever hitting an addiction level, nevermind all.

The fact that with average rolls, someone will hit a coma in 8 years of 1 soykaf per week is outrageous.  There are people who have lived decades, drinking the real world coffee equivalent once or twice per day, and never advanced past mild addiction at worst.  And again, this system does nothing to differentiate between someone who uses Kamikaze once per week, or once per day, or once per hour.

Quote
Besides, you're ignoring a VERY important aspect: The drugs are supposed to be risky, because if you don't have the risk from continued usage, everyone would be doing it. There's a system requirement that there's an actual risk involved even for casual users.

Also, buying hits on a crucial roll? Not cool.
  I am not ignoring their risk.  With the system I came up with, the person who drinks 1 soykaf per week doesn't have to worry about Burnout, unless both the GM and Player feel that they want to add that complication to their game for Soykaf.  Then, the risk is there. 

What I came up with also differentiates between the 1 kamikaze per week, and 1 kamikaze per day user, because multiple uses in a set time period make it harder and harder to resist addiction.  Basically, I have a time period based on Addiction Rating, and each additional use within that time period adds +1 die to the opposed roll.  Skipped time still drops it, like it says.. but with mine, Kamikaze rolls 3d6 vs your resistance roll.  Each additional use in the time period, gives it an extra die.  So, someone who uses once is rolling vs 3d6, while someone who uses 7 times is rolling vs 9d6.  Frequent use penalizes, and adds risk.  It doesn't ignore the risk.  In fact, I could probably tweak it to keep the threshold, and just increase it for multiple uses within the time frame I came up with, for those that want to keep the threshold.

And as for Crucial Rolls, the GM doesn't have to allow Bought Hits, I just have that because I would likely use Bought Hits to simplify for the person who buys 1 soykaf per week.. your average person can buy 1 more hit than the opposition.. until the Soykaf user starts to binge, at which point I would call for a roll instead.

I think I will post my writeup in the House rules section, for perusal.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: <05-06-14/1943:18> »
Your system is trying to solve logical problems, and as a result all it does is make it even easier for players to game the system to use drugs for benefits during runs and let it cool down until the threshold is gone after. So yes, you are ignoring the need for a decent risk. The system you're proposing only works for NPCs, not for PCs, and as such is completely missing the point.
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Tarislar

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« Reply #10 on: <06-07-14/1751:13> »
Follow up question.

Can you use Edge for the Addiction test ?


Joush

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« Reply #11 on: <06-07-14/1822:00> »
2) Even very casual users of some very minor drugs risks the eventual progression into Burnout stages
No they don't. Not if they simply not use every now and then. It would take AGES for some Drugs to ever become a problem. If you drink Soykaf ALL the time, you'd be rolling once every 10 weeks. Let's assume Soykaf is Psysiological, so Body+Willpower to resist, that's 6 dice for normal people. 2/3 chance to succeed, so once every 30 weeks you'd fail. So you'd have to be dosing on Soykaf for 2.5 years average in a row without ever taking a break to start hitting Burnout. If you're a runner with decent stats, it's 90%, so 100 weeks per failed test. That's 8 years average of constant Soykaf drinking before Burnout. That's CONSTANT use. Casual users have only very small risk of ever hitting an addiction level, nevermind all.

Besides, you're ignoring a VERY important aspect: The drugs are supposed to be risky, because if you don't have the risk from continued usage, everyone would be doing it. There's a system requirement that there's an actual risk involved even for casual users.

Also, buying hits on a crucial roll? Not cool.

So wait, you see nothing wrong with people dying of coffee addiction in 3 years on average?

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #12 on: <06-07-14/1906:31> »
The addiction rules are slapdash and should never have been made 'one size fits all'.  If you want points for being chronically addicted to caffeine, fine, take the addiction quality.  But no one in my group even bothers with testing for soycaf for sim use.

I'd like to see addiction rules on a drug-by-drug basis, and medical developments to help stave off addiction.  Afterall, jazz is security and police issue.  They've got to have some kind of addiction inhibitor drug to take with it.

SlowDeck

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« Reply #13 on: <06-07-14/1911:15> »
The soykaf issue can be dealt with by ignoring its entry.

As for addiction: This is a dystopian world. Likely, simply replacing cops who get too addicted is easier and cheaper than combating the addiction.
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Tarislar

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« Reply #14 on: <06-07-14/1940:09> »
I'd like to see addiction rules on a drug-by-drug basis, and medical developments to help stave off addiction.  Afterall, jazz is security and police issue.  They've got to have some kind of addiction inhibitor drug to take with it. 

I think drug by drug might be a bit much, but some more variation in some of the addiction test ratings would be nice.

And agreed on some form off inhibitor,  I was actually thinking that it would be a good use of the Medicine skill.
Allow people under medical care to gain bonus dice to the resistance test.
It would also be nice if there was a way to reduce the costs of buying off the addiction in Karma, I mean 8-18-40-50 Karma seems really steep & there are lots of Betty Ford clinics out there to help people.

Also, looking at the rules, is it just me or is there no end to withdrawl symptoms once you fail a Withdrawl Check?