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Some unpleasant Ambiguities in Street Grimoir

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Notion

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« on: <10-27-18/0930:37> »
From the mods:

This poster is no longer welcome on the boards and any post from them, or from duplicitous accounts will be removed from the boards.
« Last Edit: <11-06-18/1718:49> by FastJack »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <10-28-18/0503:36> »
It says "select a single limit to affect". Damage isn't a limit. Accuracy/Handling/Sensor/Speed/Physical/Mental/Social all are. So as it's written, you could upgrade the Mental limit for your Goggles, or the Handling of a car (assuming you beat the 15+ OR), or its Sensors (which could face an OR of 9, though some people disagree with me there >_>). For weapons you'd always target Accuracy, of course. You miiiight be able to impact a Cyberdeck? That does face an OR of 15+ again though.

As for the other things, those indeed are clear contradictions so you should check the errata topics for those.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #2 on: <10-29-18/1058:19> »
Mental Limit is an Inherent Limit of the person, not the gear. So you can't increase that through the gear limit spell, but all the rest are fine.

It's worth noting that it increases limits, not the actual attributes. So, since Handling or the ASDF of a cyberdeck are both it only affects that as a limit. It doesn't let you treat Attack on a cyberdeck as higher for base damage on a data spike for instance.

I feel like there are details being overlooked on one or two of the other items, but I haven't had a chance to sit down with the book and look it up yet. I'll get back to you when I have that chance.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #3 on: <10-30-18/0614:54> »
Alright, it took about 2 days, but I can sit down with my computer now...

Attune Item: This one is potentially an oversight, but on closer reading I don't think it is. The first part, choosing the item and performing the proper skill test to perform the ritual is pretty clearly laid out. It specifically calls out Instruments and lists the proper skill and everything. The part that you called out as being contradictory is only partially so. It just so happens that attuning an instrument doesn't inherently improve your ability to perform (showmanship). It might allow the adept to perform amazing feats of technical skill with the instrument, but not charisma-based performance. At least, that's the way I read it which follows RAW. Thematically, if a GM wants to override with the exception that Performance can also be affected, that would also be reasonable. It is very possible that the writer of this ritual overlooked or forgot that Performance is not paired with a physical attribute or the passage was cut to save words (it is quite lengthy, even as is).

Personally, I would rule that an adept that has attuned an instrument can make Performance + Agility tests while benefiting from the limit increase. But there are some further benefits for attuning an item, so I wouldn't call it a contradiction. Not all items benefit the same way from being attuned.


Increase Gear Limit: Already discussed.


Rectitude: Ok, it took a little bit of looking, but I figured out the confusion here. The Imbue Item ritual, which is what allows you to apply those traits from page 132 is not limited to items that are attuned using the Attune Item (Adept) ritual. Anything magical which can be bonded by an awakened individual is referred to as being "attuned." The Adept ritual (Attune Item) simply allows an adept to bestow a magical-like status to a mundane object and thus attune it. Not all of the Imbued Traits apply to these adept attuned items, the first one for example (Alliance) explicitly doesn't.

In the case of Rectitude, the wording is somewhat poor (true), but the phrasing clearly indicates that it is an imbued trait that can only be applied to Qi or Weapon Foci. Since the Imbue Item ritual can be used on foci as well as adept attuned items, this is totally allowed.

Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <10-30-18/2346:31> »
Quote
So, is this (quickening Increase Gear Limit on a Spirit that possesses a vehicle) legal? What do you think?


You're in GM opinion territory there.

IMO no. It's still a Spirit, and possession is not a permanent state for the spirit (it still disappears at sundown/sunrise if unbound, or at the end of its last service if bound.) 

either summon a more powerful spirit of possession so it can increase the stats through the possession, or upgrade the gear mechanically for better stats, use a sustaining foci to offset the sustaining drain...

Even an inhabited Spirit is STILL a spirit (and Inhabitation IS permanent!)

the line you quote:
Quote
"If the spirit fails, it is forced back to the astral plane. If the spirit succeeds, both spirit and vessel are considered a single dual-natured entity (p. 395, SR5) for the possessionís duration."

refers you back to this:

Quote
DUAL NATURED
Type: P Action: Auto
Range: Self Duration: Always
Dual-natured critters are active in both the astral
plane and the physical plane at the same time. They
can affect both astral and physical beings. They can perceive
and interact with the astral plane like characters
using astral perception (see Astral Perception, p. 312).
Being dual natured, though, is different from astral perception
in that a dual-natured critter always senses both
the physical and astral worlds; they donít have to shift
back and forth (and, in fact, cannot do so). Their minds
are accustomed to processing both astral and physical
sensations, so dual-natured critters donít suffer the Ė2
dice pool modifier for interacting with the physical world
while astrally perceiving.

Normally your vehicle would be totally safe from some types of spells, namely most mana based combat spells, and attacks from the astral plane.
However, thanks to the Spirit possessing the Vehicle, this is no longer the case, as it is now considered a "Dual natured" entity... So mana ball, mana bolt, and attacks from the astral all affect the vehicle (and the spirit!) equally.



Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Jayde Moon

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« Reply #5 on: <10-31-18/1255:02> »
Notion, do me a favor.  Everytime someone says 'up to the GM' or anything like that, translate it to:

"I agree that the rule is unclear as written and two different people might read it differently and without any sort of 'official guidance on the matter, the arbitration must fall upon the presiding GM, hopefully."

We've established in multiple threads you have started, or opened a new conversation in, that there are indeed ambiguities and contradictions written into the rules.  As you yourself accept that this is the case, it follows that you must understand that there may be no hard coded response to some of your questions.

So you are either stubbornly demanding one, and from the wrong people, or you are trying to find a suitable answer that will satisfy your need for one despite falling short.

I presume it's the latter.  Given that, folks are making an earnest effort to assist you in sussing out the details.

So take a breath and approach this from the angle that folks here are meaning to be helpful, not antagonistic.  If something doesn't make sense to you or doesn't feel thought out to second and third order of effect, then certainly bring that up.  I am sure that everyone here appreciates being constructively criticized and possibly see something they were missing or, if they have thought of that, explain why they don't think that applies or would work...

And a conversation working towards a goal might happen, that might... just might... make enough sense to cause some sort of official ruling on some of these items.
That's just like... your opinion, man.

Reaver

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« Reply #6 on: <10-31-18/1337:48> »
Notion,

I've tried twice to be nice....

BUT

FastJack - Link removed due to inappropriate language.
« Last Edit: <10-31-18/1514:47> by FastJack »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

FastJack

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« Reply #7 on: <10-31-18/1511:41> »
Time to lock a thread until people learn to get along. Some warnings will be going out too, you can be sure.

FastJack

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« Reply #8 on: <11-01-18/1021:05> »
Please note, this thread is now being watched. If you need to, re-read the Terms of Service, particularly #1 - Play Nice and #7 - Be Constructive.

Criticism of the game (and it's developers) is okay, as long as it's constructive and not just complaining that you can't do what you want.

Likewise, stay chill when commenting on another user's posts, even when they are frustrating you. Be civil, even when the original poster may not be civil to you.

Grizzly

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« Reply #9 on: <11-04-18/1652:17> »
I don't have a real problem with what you are suggesting as a general guideline.

Consider - a quickened spell must be a spell that is normally sustained, but then becomes self-sustaining through the expenditure of Karma (SR5 p. 326

So you can cast a Mass Agony spell on a location (targeting the general aura of the area) then use a point of Karma to quicken it.  Now, anyone or anything that is a normal target for a Mass Agony spell that enters the AOE becomes subject to that spell until the quickened spell is disrupted.