[Bonx]

Perception would be pertinent indeed. However the system is based on Attribute + Skill tests so to comply with the system using Intuition is the best solution.

Finally, I wonder if Perception should be an Attribute instead of a skill. After all, perception is more an inherent ability of individuals than a set of competencies one can learn.

[All4BigGuns]

Well, Battle Rifles are more closely related to assault rifles than they are to longarms.

True enough. Just throwing some suggestions out on how to give Longarms some more love, though.

Another option, which I believe has been discussed elsewhere on the board, is simply eliminating Automatics as a skill and having all stocked, shoulder-fired weapons use Longarms and all pistol-type weapons use Pistols. Then you strip Rockets/Grenades/Missiles/Mortars into a separate skill called "Launchers" and fold the remaining Heavy Weapons (Cannons and MGs, IIRC) into the Firearms Skill Group so it still has 3 skills.

My rule is that the Firearms Group Skill is (specializations in brackets) :
- Hand guns (Pistols, Machine-Pistols, Submachine Guns)
- Long guns (Assault Rifles, Shotguns, Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Battle Rifles)
- Machine guns (light, medium, heavy)

Launchers skill covers : mortars, rocket and missile launchers, and grenade launchers (both stand alone and under barrel versions) and assault canons.

I find the Firearms GS as it is a complete nonsense. Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?

Also, I am thinking about making a distinction between aimed shots (weapon is held at the level of the eyes, like the iron sight in some shooters) which is based on Agility and instinctive shots (where the weapon is held at the level of the belly like in duels of revolver, or with the stock of automatic weapons blocked below the arm pit) which is based on Intuition. Depending on the situation players would use either Agility or Intuition.

It does fit with the description of actions and it prevents (some) players from exploiting the overpowered Agility attribute.

This--in my opinion--is a completely unnecessary (and I think ridiculous) change to the rules which serves little or no purpose other than to be a change. Definitely a case where things are not broken, and thus there is no reason at all to try and "fix" it.

[Bonx]

I have thought about a bit more about the idea of distinguishing aimed shot and instinctive shots. I have come to the following distinction. Please feel free to give me constructive feedbacks.

Aimed Ranged Attack (Agility + Weapon Skill)
This is the dice pool by default, it also encompasses:
- Taking aim
- Called shot
- Use of image magnification
- All the narrow bursts in BF and FA modes that increase the DV
- Shotguns with slug rounds

Instinctive Ranged Attack (Intuition + Weapon Skill)
- Blind fire (the target cannot be seen)
- All the wide bursts in BF and FA modes that decrease the defenders' dice pool
- Suppressive fire (treated as a wide burst)
- Shotguns with flechette ammunitions

Quick Draw Ranged Attack (Reaction + Pistols)
A single test to resolve both the draw and the shot (I don't like making two different tests) with Reaction + Pistols and a negative modifier of -3 (-2 when using quick draw holster). If the character scores no success, he has readied his weapon but did not have time to shoot on this Simple Action. If he scores a glitch the weapon stays stuck in the holster or drops on the floor. In case of critical glitch the weapon fires into the holster. This could spice up duels!

[_Pax_]

Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?

  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.

Also, I am thinking about making a distinction between aimed shots (weapon is held at the level of the eyes, like the iron sight in some shooters) which is based on Agility and instinctive shots (where the weapon is held at the level of the belly like in duels of revolver, or with the stock of automatic weapons blocked below the arm pit) which is based on Intuition. Depending on the situation players would use either Agility or Intuition.

One thing to consider.: if it's a smartgun, and I have an image link, I don't have to use the iron sights to be aiming very, very precisely.  I can get a picture-in-a-picture sight from the gun itself.  With an aiming reticule and everything.

[_Pax_]

... is ridiculously cheap.  Seriously, four cyberlimbs with Armor(2), and you have better than an armored jacket with the family jewels swingin' in the wind, and it stacks with literally everything.

My personal ruling will be:
Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen, Rating * [2] Capacity
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen, Rating * [4] Capacity
Availability:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 4R
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 6R
Rating Limits:
... Hand/Foot: not available
... Half limb: 1 point (each limb)
... Full limb: 2 points (each limb)
... Torso: 3 points
... Skull: 2 points

It's a little more sane - just a touch more expensive.  (And note, slightly more readily available if you get the "obvious armor" version; the stock version is Rating * 5R. The downside ofthat is, well, "obvious armor on an obvious cyberlimb" ... social consequneces about.)

[JustADude]

Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?

  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.

What about Machine Pistols... y'know, the ones that are the SR4 equivalent to a Glock 18 and, based on the G18 and their in-game DV, the same shape and size as a Light Pistol?

[_Pax_]

Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?

  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.

What about Machine Pistols... y'know, the ones that are the SR4 equivalent to a Glock 18 and, based on the G18 and their in-game DV, the same shape and size as a Light Pistol?

I didn't say I *liked* the way the rule is setup.  Just answered that one, very specific question. 

[All4BigGuns]

Instinctive Ranged Attack (Intuition + Weapon Skill)
- Blind fire (the target cannot be seen)
- All the wide bursts in BF and FA modes that decrease the defenders' dice pool
- Suppressive fire (treated as a wide burst)
- Shotguns with flechette ammunitions

Quick Draw Ranged Attack (Reaction + Pistols)
A single test to resolve both the draw and the shot (I don't like making two different tests) with Reaction + Pistols and a negative modifier of -3 (-2 when using quick draw holster). If the character scores no success, he has readied his weapon but did not have time to shoot on this Simple Action. If he scores a glitch the weapon stays stuck in the holster or drops on the floor. In case of critical glitch the weapon fires into the holster. This could spice up duels!

With these two, the only criticism I can offer, is do not do it. Ever. Period. There is no point or reason in it. It is just extra stuff for no gain or purpose.

[JustADude]

My personal ruling will be:
Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen; also, Rating * [2] Capacity

Soooo... Obvious Armor doesn't take Capacity?

[Critias]

Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?

  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.

Except when it's not.  Whenever handedness comes up, they constantly lump SMGs in with one-handed weapons (and nothing is shoulder-fired unless you explicitly buy a shoulder stock for it, by the rules). 

I mean, it's a good try at a fair explanation, and I'm sure it's what they had in mind when they originally went through and made the hard lines between weapon classes...but I still think it's goofy.

[_Pax_]

My personal ruling will be:
Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen; also, Rating * [2] Capacity

Soooo... Obvious Armor doesn't take Capacity?

Aha, I see the problem.  I misread the table (jumped down a line), and thought Armor only took [Rating x 1] .  My intnt was to have the concealed cyberlimb armor take up twice as much capacity.

So, those entries should read:

Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen; Rating * [2] Capacity
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen; Rating * [4] Capacity

Thanks for catching that!

[Crash_00]

  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.

SMGs are not considered shoulder fired in SR. They are one handed weapons that can accept shoulder stocks. In addition, you can attach a folding stock to a Light Pistol that has BF and suddenly it's a shoulder fired burst weapon too. Just to be clear, most common shooting styles for pistols use both hands as well, especially for Heavy Pistols. There are a handful of reasons not to use two hands, but they are extremely rare and most of them boil down to "I'm a jackass that doesn't like it" irl at least.

A better example though is Auto-Shotguns. Firing a shotgun with slugs is not different than firing an assault rifle. You have a lower range, but you can't use that as an excuse to use longarms, because the other side of longarms is all about range. Likewise, why does a modded BF Sporting Rifle use a different skill than a Battle Rifle? Why does a Battle Rifle with no BF use the Automatics skill? They are all completely arbitrary decisions that make no sense when you get down to it.

As for the newer rules, I think they can cause a few issues balance wise. INT is going to be lower than any gunslinger's Agility. So firing a wide burst is going to hit them with both recoil penalites, and a second DP drop going to INT instead of AGI. The entire point is to give the enemy a DP drop. For your average gun bunny it's going to make wide bursts highly ineffective. I also don't think shotguns with flechette should be INT as you still aim right at the target and pull the trigger, the bullet does all the extra stuff.

[_Pax_]

You would perhaps prefer the 3E way - where single-shot was one skill, but burstfire and automatic fire were a seperate skill?

On the one hand, I liked 3E's "skill web".

On the other hand, I do agree that "automatics" should be done away with.

• Small Arms (Pistols, MPs, SMGs)
• Long Arms (Shotguns, all Rifles)
• Heavy Weapons (assault cannons, MGs, grenade launchers)

And Launchers should simply be a skill unto itself, like Gunnery is.

[Blue_Lion]

I whould think a one handed sub maching gun whould be called machine pistol. Athou submachine guns can be fired without using a stock, you still need 2 hands.

[Crash_00]

Not really irl or by the rules. Sure using two hands is going to (irl) improve your stability and aim, but it's perfectly possible to fire them one handed relatively well if you're trained to. They are no different than pistols in this regard. 90% of weapons trainers are going to train you to shoot all but the tiniest pistols using a two handed grip, but they can be fired one handed with a slight reduction in stability, and therefore accuracy.

3E wasn't really better per say. It had every weapon type as a skill pretty much (Pistols, SMGs, Rifles, Assault Rifles and Shotguns. Heavy Weapons covered MGs and Assault cannons while Launch Weapons covered launcher, but they were Strength and Intelligence based respectively.) Where it had a definite advantage in realism was that you could "default" to skills rather than straight up attribute. The way SR4A changed the system (set TN), makes it weird to try and emulate defaulting to similar skills though.