[FraustyTheSnowman]

Not that I'm dissagreing, but my perception of the rules differ....though it's very likely this is because my understanding of the rules is still very limited. Given that an attacker rolls an attribute and a skill, against (often times, but not always) a defenders attribute and skill, with the defender further rolling an attribute and armor, I would say over all the defender has the advantage. What am I missing?

[The_Gun_Nut]

The attacker does not have to roll for damage, as in other systems.

For example, Exalted (both editions, as well as oWoD) heavily favors the defender, because even after an attack, even with bonus hits converting to damage, that damage must be rolled and it is entirely possible to come up with zero.  Which is especially frustrating after rolling a ton of extra successes vs. someone with very little armor or defense.  Even in D&D and many other D20 systems, damage is a variable, and its possible to get very low damage even on a critical hit.

Shadowrun OTOH, in all editions, states a baseline amount of damage for each weapon and each attack.  That damage can be resisted, but no matter what happens, the damage does not start at zero and have to be worked up.  For many weapons, it starts high and characters have to work it down, hoping that the attacker does not roll well.

Does that help?

[JustADude]

Shadowrun OTOH, in all editions, states a baseline amount of damage for each weapon and each attack.  That damage can be resisted, but no matter what happens, the damage does not start at zero and have to be worked up.  For many weapons, it starts high and characters have to work it down, hoping that the attacker does not roll well.

Does that help?

This is why, for example, a Sakura Fubiki (Light pistol, fires 3RBs with only SA recoil) loaded with Stick'n'Shock is so lethal^* highly effective.

6S base, vs 1/2 Impact armor (+Nonconductivity mods), the 3RB makes it 8S before hits, and you can double-tap it without eating a huge recoil penalty. That's a good recipe for dropping someone in one action phase.


EDIT: ^*Whoops

[FraustyTheSnowman]

A little. I think Shadowrun is more consistant for the reasons you stated, but I think with d20 you have just as good of a chance to roll high as you do low. Mostly I think I just need more experience with the rules in play (unfortunately not likely to happen any time soon) to really see it.

[The_Gun_Nut]

The point is that damage is still a variable in all those systems.  After the hit, which in D20 the accuracy of the hit is irrelevant to it's damage apart from crits, damage is rolled and it might be high but it is equally valid that it might be low.  That chance of moderate to low damage is what favors the defender, giving their defenses a good chance to negate it entirely.

For Shadowrun, in order to negate even a nominal hit with a low damage attack, for example a light pistol (4P), the defender needs to have 12 dice of body + armor to have a reasonable chance to negate it.  (For shadowrunners this usually isn't an issue, for Joe Average, this is difficult.)  If the attack was at all accurate, for each point of extra accuracy, there is an extra point of damage.  That isn't "potential damage," that is actual damage inflicted.  Therefore to be assured a reasonable chance to resist the attack, for every extra hit on the attack roll, the defender needs 3 extra dice to roll to resist.  (Note I'm leaving out the defender's defense roll at this time, and simply using net accuracy.)

Other game systems use a format like this:

ATTACKER:                THEN                   DEFENDER:
Roll to attack                                            Roll to defend
Roll to damage                                         Roll to resist

That extra variable in the attack step gives the defender a chance to resist or take less damage, as that damage is not inflicted in the first place.  In Shadowrun, to reiterate and perhaps be more clear, the format is:

ATTACKER:                THEN                   DEFENDER:
Roll to attack                                          Roll to defend
                                                              Roll to resist

The attacker is done once rolling the attack.  Their damage has already been calculated in the attack roll, and is then inflicted upon the defender.  The defender has two chances to resist damage, which on the surface looks beneficial to the defender. But the attacker's damage is set using a single variable, the attack roll, while the defender has nothing certain reducing the damage they take.  Not even hardened armor is certain to reduce the damage; if the attack can overcome the rating of the armor, then all it does is provide extra dice to resist.

Certainly, the number of dice the defender rolls seems to favor him, but remember it is still random.  The defender may, or may not, resist the attack simply because of chance, while the attacker has completed his part of the system at the moment of his single roll.

That is why SR favors offense.

[Windshare]

Hi !
I have a question. Do you have any house rule for a melee adept ? Swordmaster and the like ?
I mean can you imagine some kind of power like critical strike for melee weapon ? What could be the cost of such power ?

[Mason]

Oh, I did that once. 0.5 PP per level, caps at 3, each time you take it choose a melee weapon type, like sword or mace or club or whip. Adds 1 DV per level.

[JustADude]

Hi !
I have a question. Do you have any house rule for a melee adept ? Swordmaster and the like ?
I mean can you imagine some kind of power like critical strike for melee weapon ? What could be the cost of such power ?

Me, I might just HR that a bonded Weapon Focus counts as 'Unarmed' for the use of any Adept power that works through 'Unarmed' attacks.

[Redman]

I based the "true" metaraces originate from the magical elements. The so-called immortals
Orc - moss - plant
Dwarf - stone - earth
Human - Air or water
Elf - Air or water
Troll - ember - fire.

Dragon - All

All the normal metas were here about a descended for until now dominant genes.

[ARC]

I based the "true" metaraces originate from the magical elements. The so-called immortals
Orc - moss - plant
Dwarf - stone - earth
Human - Air or water
Elf - Air or water
Troll - ember - fire.

Dragon - All

All the normal metas were here about a descended for until now dominant genes.

I would have Elves be Air and Humans be water, Elves tend to be more aloof and Humans tend to be able to fit in anywhere.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Humans are all elements, at once and at the same time.

[Waratah]

Anyone tried the "Body only for healing" optional rule (rather than Body x 2)?

Did you find this better or worse?  Grittier or not?

Have not tried that in our group but have recently considered a house rule for setting a threshold equal to the damage taken for healing.
(Actually posted this a moment ago in a healing thread)

I try to cover a lot of post run effects at the start of a new session. Give players a chance to settle into their characters before hand, go over what they've been doing with things like training, repairs and healing before the next job comes along. While we've only had one near death incident in our group (after a fateful visit to the Stuffer Shack for some nukit burgers and soycaff) but several characters badly wounded, it didn't feel like healing the damage was really a significant setback.

Basic idea:
You need to exceed the damage taken as a threshold before healing becomes effective and starts to clear the damage boxes on the condition modifier.
Wound modifiers apply to the healing check so you get the feel of as you get better you heal faster.
Usual bonuses as per the rules from medicine and first aid as appropriate.

[Crash_00]

So do you do it as an extended test threshold or as a single test threshold.

Damage in SR4A heals very quickly compared to older editions. I think it was supposed to be a step toward streamlining things and making player deaths occur less often, but I think it went a bit too far. Wound penalties are likewise not near as debilitating.

[raggedhalo]

Having wounds set the Threshold and having Wound Penalties affect the roll feels a bit like penalising the players twice for the same thing.

I use Wound Penalties on the Healing Test, and make them pay for their time in the hospital/street doc's back room.  That seems to work well; gets them back into play relatively quickly but means that there's a cost.  I also use the optional rule for Severe Wounds, which I like a lot.

[Crash_00]

The most I've really considered doing is using the old SR3 healing charts. Instead of having the healing test be daily automatically, it's interval is based on damage that has been taken, and each level of damage has a minimum time to heal. Example:

Damage Level*	Interval	Min. Time
Deadly (All CM Boxes)	30 days	3 days
Serious (60% CM Boxes)	20 days	2 days
Moderate (30% CM Boxes)	10 days	1 day
Light (Any CM Boxes)	1 day	2 hours

*Damage Levels are rounded up.
Example: Joey the troll has a Body of 10 for 13 total CM boxes. He takes 7 boxes of Damage. The Serious damage level starts at 60% of his wound track rounded up, which means he's in luck because he has one box to go (13 x .6 = 7.8, rounded up = before he gets there.