[MaxKojote]

I've been working under the possibly-mistaken impression that in meatspace or AR you are limited to 4 initiative passes. A friend recently pointed out to me that there was no passage explicitly preventing you from reaching 5 initiative passes, just some vague references. I find myself in agreement when I did my own research, but I figured I'd better ask around. His method uses a mix of Wired Reflexes, Cram and Kamikaze to reach 5 initiative passes. As far as I can tell, there's nothing limiting that, just statements that it's unlikely for most archetypes to reach that high (which I took to mean that you can only get that high in VR).

[cr4kp0t]

Like you i have been under that impression as well that i.e.  the only circumstance you could achieve 5 IP's was either as a technomancer with the various overclocking echos or a hacker with both the simsense accelerator and simsence booster in VR.

Likewise form my research i have found nothing 100% explicit but various passages that strongly suggest RAI is that the limit is 4 except in the specific scenarios already mentioned above even if RAW does not explicitly state that,

Ironically i think the two things closest to a rule limiting it would be the following quotes:

It is compatible with simsense booster cyberware (so a hacker in hot sim with a simsense accelerator and simsense booster
cyberware has 5 Initiative Passes). Initiative Passes; this is an exception to the rule that normally limits IPs to 4).

That is from the entry for the simsense booster and the less obvious one from the anniversary BBB

 e maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever achieve 4

Admittedly this does say that the limit is 5 however....
As a side note your friend's method of getting 5 IP's is a vastly debatable subject as proven bu some of teh hot debates of the past on these very forums but IMHO i do agree that wired reflexes can't be mixed with drugs to get more IP's you'd have to chose one or the other....

[martinchaen]

Hi, I'm the friend.

Yes, my argument was indeed the Game Mechanics section you quoted from page 88, cr4kp0t.

The drugs debate has been houseruled by our GM (i.e. drug effects do stack with augmentations or magic), so that's not an issue from this point of view, really. I am aware of the fact that this is a hotly debated topic, however, but there's no need to go into it; let's just assume that they do for the purposes of this discussion.

There are additional references using words like "most" or "few" in terms of exceeding the 4 IP limit, the strongest one to my mind being this:

Page 144, SR4A:
"Few characters can act in more than four Initiative Passes in a Combat Turn and none under these basic rules."

Now, "basic rules" are not clearly defined, but a mention is made on page 221:
"Artificial intelligences under these core rules are plot devices and NPCs; however, new options are introduced in the advanced rulebooks Unwired and Runner’s Companion."

Then there's this, from page 145:
"Most characters may not act in more than 4 Initiative Passes in a Combat Turn (even if they spend Edge)."

The Increased Reflexes spell on page 208 limits IPs to 4:
"A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell at a time; the maximum IPs any character can have is 4."

I'm guessing it's an oversight in terms of page 68. I'd argue that RAW states that the maximum IPs you can ever have in SR4A is 5, but RAI is to limit IPs to 4 unless specifically mentioned in one of the expanded books.

[cr4kp0t]

Very good points matinchaen, the other pages you mentioned were just off the cut in my mind....(I assumed that the reference in the increased reflexes spell was missed in errata after the additional source books were produced. Hey everyone is human after all)

I agree that RAW doesn't forbid it but RAI is to limit non matrix to 4IP's....

On the other side of the coin... personally i have never really found much of a need to have more than 3IP's... but then again i never realyl needed them either.

[Reaver]

As far as I know drugs + ware is the ONLY way to reach 5 passes...

And while it is hotly debated, there really is no rule that says it doesn't work.

Just be aware that drug use is its own mixed bag of ugly...

[martinchaen]

Reaver Yep, that's my view as well; drugs have side effects that are directly statted (6S damage when Cram ends, for example, 18S if you're brave or stupid enough to take K10), and then they have the effects that are more left up to the GM in terms of addictions.

MaxKojote and I both clearly understand why the changes to Overdosing were made in SR5, after seeing some of the weird stuff you can accomplish with drugs in SR4. Then again, I'd be perfectly OK with a GM slapping a player (like myself) with addictions for trying to take four doses of Cram for four times the bonuses, or for a magician taking 2 doses of Psyche to not take any negatives to sustaining.

Now that I think about it, are there any general rules for stacking effects? *goes off to search*

[Muscular_Bevar]

Already mentioned this to some of the guys in hear but i figured it was worth putting out for everyone else.

The common impression that you all have is from reading (im guessing anyway) the old rule book (SR4 not SR4A) which came out before unwired.

No character can act in more than 4 Initiative Passes
in a Combat Turn (even if they spend Edge).

Pg134 SR4

Now obvioulsy they had broken that rule (created an exception) in unwired and so (un)helpfully they moddifed the wording in SR4A

The drugs thing i dont think will ever be truely solved (tho the desription after wired reflexes is where my personl assumption of them not stacking comes from) but in checkin on the incresed reflexes spell to see if it said the same i found this too

A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell
at a time; the maximum IPs any character can have is 4.

Pg 208 SR4A

Pretty sure we are stuck with 4 IP in meat space 

[Mithlas]

I thought martinchaen was pretty clear (even citing page numbers), but let me summarize in case it's not clear:
- Characters can use 'ware or magic to get up to 4 initiative passes (base rule).
- Hackers and submerged technomancers can get an additional pass for matrix actions (special exception), up to 5 (hard cap)

- Drugs can stack with everything, even 'ware and magic (allowing characters to get up to 5 IP if you're willing to risk the medical complications)
This last item is one that's never stated in the books, but to my understanding it's so common an understanding that it's not just a "house rule" anymore. Some tables don't like it. I actually would not recommend going more than 1 IP above either other players or the other NPCs that you're planning on playing against because things can start to get boring - you basically have an entire extra round to act however you wish, and that can easily throw the difficulty curve out. This can be a different case if you're routinely outnumbered or up against people with much better equipment in general, but for most cases you can play a perfectly fun game on the same number of IP as your opposition.

Different tables have different inclinations, so if you decide you don't want drugs to push you up to 5 IP then that's not a rule-violating decision. If you decide it can then that's not violating rules either - you're going to be paying for it one way or another. Check with your group to see whether they feel constrained or if they just want that extra IP for the power boost.