[incrdbil]

Heck, since you didn't say you made melee attacks complex actions again, may I assume that those melee warriors are making two attacks now too (in passes after they've closed of course)?

Just one. We've only got one melee character, and he isn't complaining. He tends to shoot one action, swing the axe the next phase as part of the recoil cool down cycle. He's a honking big troll with a big axe, so what get hits tends to go away, or be so hurt as to not be much of a threat.  We do have a new player joining who is doing a melee specialist, so I'll be carefully scrutinizing his performance to see if our house rule will stand, or if some other change has to be made.

The axe wielding troll has made multiple attack actions though; splitting the dice pool sounds bad, but you don't have to split that hefty reach factor, so laying down the multiple strokes in one attack has been very effective for him.

[All4BigGuns]

Heck, since you didn't say you made melee attacks complex actions again, may I assume that those melee warriors are making two attacks now too (in passes after they've closed of course)?

Just one. We've only got one melee character, and he isn't complaining. He tends to shoot one action, swing the axe the next phase as part of the recoil cool down cycle. He's a honking big troll with a big axe, so what get hits tends to go away, or be so hurt as to not be much of a threat.  We do have a new player joining who is doing a melee specialist, so I'll be carefully scrutinizing his performance to see if our house rule will stand, or if some other change has to be made.

The axe wielding troll has made multiple attack actions though; splitting the dice pool sounds bad, but you don't have to split that hefty reach factor, so laying down the multiple strokes in one attack has been very effective for him.

You might still consider more than one attack for him (keeping the Simple action attacks from the new edition). Really, making melee able to attack twice without the splitting stuff (splitting being more than one attack with one action, so basically a possibility of melee and ranged getting 4 with split) would have been better than just limiting everyone to 1 attack.

I'd still advise applying Physical Limit to defense rolls. It ain't right for attack to have a Limit and defense--normally--not to.

[Gryphynx (Sphynx)]

Well, I finally received our Character Creation rules from my GM, and thought I'd post one that I think should be canonical.    He realized the same thing I did it seems, that playing a Mystic Adept, regardless of the PP cost in karma, is overpowered.  Originally he decided that he would just ban Mystic Adepts altogether, but after some discussion, the following is his current ruling.

Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.

He also House Ruled that Aspected begin the game knowing a number of Spells equal to their Magic *2, which makes Aspected something of interest to play suddenly.

[martinchaen]

I like the idea of allowing melee attacks as simple actions; hell, even spells can be reckless cast. I'd probably allow the same for Sprinting, too, but keep the max 1 attack action per combat turn, regardless of source bit.

Personally, the idea that if I have to sprint to reach my target I can no longer attack if I charge them is somewhat ludicrous. The current rules can end up producing weird results like a character sprinting to charge his target in one round, only to have the target move just 2m away so the character has to make another sprint test, precluding an attack action.

[All4BigGuns]

Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.

Might as well ban them outright with that, since that makes them even less of a usable option than the contradictory FAQ interpretation did in the previous edition.

[Gryphynx (Sphynx)]

Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.

Might as well ban them outright with that, since that makes them even less of a usable option than the contradictory FAQ interpretation did in the previous edition.

GM thought similarly, but personally, I want to play one so I can Metamagic some Power Points.  That's the only advantage to playing one, in that you can learn Adept powers in-game, something I want to do.  As stated, originally he intended to just ban them, but getting power points in-game makes them not broken. 

[incrdbil]

You might still consider more than one attack for him (keeping the Simple action attacks from the new edition). Really, making melee able to attack twice without the splitting stuff (splitting being more than one attack with one action, so basically a possibility of melee and ranged getting 4 with split) would have been better than just limiting everyone to 1 attack.

I'd still advise applying Physical Limit to defense rolls. It ain't right for attack to have a Limit and defense--normally--not to.

If Strength wasn't such a huge component of physical limits, I'd consider it. Having a clumsy big brute be more defensive in potential than a super agile character troubles me, so I'm not going to impose limits on those tests.  I think I'll mention the  simple action on physicals to the group.

[ZeConster]

Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.

Might as well ban them outright with that, since that makes them even less of a usable option than the contradictory FAQ interpretation did in the previous edition.

As someone who was on the "MAs are overpowered" train from the start until the hot patch errata, I agree with A4BG that "no Power Points at chargen" is a totally ridiculous thing that makes MAs pretty much useless.

[All4BigGuns]

Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.

Might as well ban them outright with that, since that makes them even less of a usable option than the contradictory FAQ interpretation did in the previous edition.

As someone who was on the "MAs are overpowered" train from the start until the hot patch errata, I agree with A4BG that "no Power Points at chargen" is a totally ridiculous thing that makes MAs pretty much useless.

And if he and I are in agreement on the matter, that tells just how bad an idea it is.

Now, if you'll excuse me...

*runs off to go check the Hell Thermometer as it must have frozen over*

[FasterN8]

I agree with A4BG that "no Power Points at chargen" is a totally ridiculous thing that makes MAs pretty much useless.

Useless? Really?

By the same argument, would you consider a build useless if they built a MA by RAW and used their starting karma for stats and qualities rather than PP?  The can still cast and conjure just fine.

Limiting them to no PP at chargen makes the comparison to Full Mages really, really easy.  So is the lack of projection and 5 karma is too much to pay for the ability to take PP at initiation?  I'll concede that the price might be a bit high; I would have given them perception for free, and let them initiate at chargen, but the ability to buy PP is no small thing.  There's still a lot of cool combinations that you can make with only a couple PP. 

[Rythymhack]

What about those of us that prefer to play as an Adept who happens to have a few spells? The change to no PP at chargen screws us.

[RHat]

I agree with A4BG that "no Power Points at chargen" is a totally ridiculous thing that makes MAs pretty much useless.

Useless? Really?

In terms of the fact that they gain absolutely zero benefit at chargen from being a Mystic Adept?  Incontestably.

Mystic Adepts are more or less good where they are now - people who think they're broken are generally not considering the full picture.  Mystic Adepts are better for being a "Mage/..." (Mage/Face, for example), while full Mages are better for being full Mages (due to being able to spend all of their Karma on things that make them a better mage, yielding a sizeable and measurable edge from chargen on).  That is how it should be.

[FasterN8]

Well, first of all I am not opposed to where Mystic Adepts are now, but I think "useless" is too strong a word for that player and a character who can cast an conjure as well as a full mage.  He has just traded off some of his astral abilities in exchange for another path to upgrade his ability. 

Lots of characters are built with the idea that "I'll do this or that as soon as I get my first few karma".  And since those changes will be in effect for 90-95% of the characters career, I don't see why they should be dismissed out of hand.

[All4BigGuns]

Lots of characters are built with the idea that "I'll do this or that as soon as I get my first few karma".  And since those changes will be in effect for 90-95% of the characters career, I don't see why they should be dismissed out of hand.

I have never seen a character built in which the player "waited until after the first few karma" to get the primary reason to play a particular character type. Having spells and adept powers both is the whole reason to play a Mystic Adept.

It's like waiting until later to buy a Decker his cyber-deck, or waiting until later to buy the Street Sam Pistoleer his first pistol.

[martinchaen]

Having to wait to buy a deck is perfectly possible with Street Level rules, just saying...

I do agree that limiting Mystic Adepts in that fashion seems way harsh.