Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-05-10/0310:43>

Title: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-05-10/0310:43>
Has anyone else noticed something odd about sniper rifles and their damage?  A heavy machine gun (.40 to .50 caliber range) does less damage per shot than a sniper rifle which uses the same caliber ammunition (the Barrett, for example).  The HMG even has less armor penetration while using the same round.

Some might attribute this to the longer barrel of the sniper rifle and the targetting system built into it, but that is patently not true.  HMG's typically have much longer barrels than the sniper rifles which use the same ammo, and, more importantly, the longest sniper shot ever taken was done so by a soldier firing a M2 .50 cal. HMG well over a mile away.

These discrepancies always felt odd to me.  Does anyone have a good reason (other than "game balance") for the dominance of the sniper rifle?  After all, sniper's will likely use aiming and called shots to increase the damage of a shot, so it isn't like they need the extra 2 or 3 damage points.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: GBL on <09-05-10/0316:04>
Nope. Just Game Balance.

People complained when (apparently) the most powerful weapon in Eclipse Phase was the Sniper Rifle.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Critias on <09-05-10/0322:01>
Nope.  No good reason for it other than game designers, as a general rule, aren't gun guys.  "Rule of Cool" trumps firearm realism, for better or worse.  SR4's a minor miracle, in that the base damage of an Assault Rifle is a little better than the base damage of a good Pistol, for once.   ;D

4th edition did a lot better than previous editions on the firearm damage front, and beats a whole lot of other games, hands down.  It's still very obviously focused more -- and rightfully so -- on playability than realism, but it could be much, much, worse.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-05-10/0346:47>
Yeah...

Back in the day, when I was an admin on the Detroit Mux had a player who wanted to mount a sniper rifle on their drone. That idea turned into a STD with the riggers "I wanna sniper rifle in the turret of my bulldog."

Unofficially,

I have always believed that the high damage value of the sniper rifles was due to precise placement of the bullet through the target's eyeball (doing an end run past the target's armor). As such, I would not allow the player to do called shots or even aiming. They seem redundant, to me, given the damage value of the weapon in question. Kind of like, "do I get a bonus for exhaling (holding my breath) and squeezing the trigger instead of jerking it?"

HMG's have burst fire and full auto mode so that levels the playing field (literally).

There are barrels and then there are -barrels-. Sniper rifles boast accuracy of 1/4 MOA something that any machine gun (light, medium or heavy) simply can't claim. It might help to think of machine guns as area denial weapons, you go into their field of fire and you are denied life. Sniper rifles are on the other hand are high value target weapons, snipers are trained to target officers, radio men, machine gunners, exposed tank commanders, etc..

Once you get into the .50 BMG range, technically those are anti-material rifles (and about as much fun to shoot as being hit by Mike Tyson).
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-05-10/0354:55>
True, but the world record sniper shot is held by a soldier firing an HMG, not a sniper rifle.

And I have always found that soldiers will fire the .50 cal. at a regular meat body by saying "I was shooting at his weapon, and just happened to clip him."  Even a graze from a .50 will put a man down.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-05-10/0402:07>
I believe the record is held by Craig Harrison, 8,120 feet, firing an Accuracy International L11583...although I may be mistaken.

Don't get me wrong, the .50 BMG is positively lethal. I only know of one man who survived being hit (in the head) with that round...Japanese fighter pilot during WW2 amazing story.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-05-10/0409:59>
Nope.  No good reason for it other than game designers, as a general rule, aren't gun guys.  "Rule of Cool" trumps firearm realism, for better or worse.  SR4's a minor miracle, in that the base damage of an Assault Rifle is a little better than the base damage of a good Pistol, for once.   ;D

4th edition did a lot better than previous editions on the firearm damage front, and beats a whole lot of other games, hands down.  It's still very obviously focused more -- and rightfully so -- on playability than realism, but it could be much, much, worse.
Ya, the submachine guns should even do more damage than the heavy pistols, due to the longer barrel of the SMG firing the same round.

@John Schmidt

I just looked it up.  The Brit got the shot off in May of this year.  The previous record of 2430 meters (~7972 feet) was made by a Canadian in 2002, though I can't find what weapon the team used.  Both are still impressive, as they beat the 35 year record of Carlos Hathcock, one of the greatest snipers the world has ever seen.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-05-10/0410:38>
Yeah...

Back in the day, when I was an admin on the Detroit Mux had a player who wanted to mount a sniper rifle on their drone. That idea turned into a STD with the riggers "I wanna sniper rifle in the turret of my bulldog."

Unofficially,

I have always believed that the high damage value of the sniper rifles was due to precise placement of the bullet through the target's eyeball (doing an end run past the target's armor). As such, I would not allow the player to do called shots or even aiming. They seem redundant, to me, given the damage value of the weapon in question. Kind of like, "do I get a bonus for exhaling (holding my breath) and squeezing the trigger instead of jerking it?"

HMG's have burst fire and full auto mode so that levels the playing field (literally).

There are barrels and then there are -barrels-. Sniper rifles boast accuracy of 1/4 MOA something that any machine gun (light, medium or heavy) simply can't claim. It might help to think of machine guns as area denial weapons, you go into their field of fire and you are denied life. Sniper rifles are on the other hand are high value target weapons, snipers are trained to target officers, radio men, machine gunners, exposed tank commanders, etc..

Once you get into the .50 BMG range, technically those are anti-material rifles (and about as much fun to shoot as being hit by Mike Tyson).

This has always been my "explanation" for it as well.  While it may not be totally realistic, it at least "feels" real to most players, and often times that's more important to fun than actually being real.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-05-10/0421:02>
Hopefully, nobody believes that I am detracting from the training or skill of snipers. The soldiers involved with those phenomenal shots, you are literally talking about a group of individuals that are less than probably 20 in the entire world. These shooters are in a class far removed from even Olympic shooters.

Again, unofficial opinion by just a regular guy so please don't hold my opinion up as something valuable...it is worth exactly what you paid for it.  ;D
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-05-10/0443:51>
Oh, heavens no.  I was merely commenting on the fact that the weapon in SR always seems to be doing the heavy lifting, as it were, and not the shooter's skill.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Turtletron on <09-05-10/1159:18>
Quote
HMG's have burst fire and full auto mode so that levels the playing field (literally).

There are barrels and then there are -barrels-. Sniper rifles boast accuracy of 1/4 MOA something that any machine gun (light, medium or heavy) simply can't claim. It might help to think of machine guns as area denial weapons, you go into their field of fire and you are denied life. Sniper rifles are on the other hand are high value target weapons, snipers are trained to target officers, radio men, machine gunners, exposed tank commanders, etc..

Once you get into the .50 BMG range, technically those are anti-material rifles (and about as much fun to shoot as being hit by Mike Tyson).

True, also you usually try to kill the target from afar with the sniper, let's say your on a roof and try to kill a corporate big shot in another building, so if for some reason you miss or the target is not dead (god knows how a shadowrun is never as easy as it seems) then you have to get your sorry ass in the building to finish the mission. For that reason the security will also be increased. So even if the sniper is strong, it's still a weapon that you will use only in certain circumstances and if not used properly can alert the enemies of your presence.(well about alerting the enemies, same could be said of a HMG, but that's a given since it's going to do a lot of noise XD)
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Critias on <09-05-10/1516:10>
Nope.  No good reason for it other than game designers, as a general rule, aren't gun guys.  "Rule of Cool" trumps firearm realism, for better or worse.  SR4's a minor miracle, in that the base damage of an Assault Rifle is a little better than the base damage of a good Pistol, for once.   ;D

4th edition did a lot better than previous editions on the firearm damage front, and beats a whole lot of other games, hands down.  It's still very obviously focused more -- and rightfully so -- on playability than realism, but it could be much, much, worse.
Ya, the submachine guns should even do more damage than the heavy pistols, due to the longer barrel of the SMG firing the same round.
Right...but, given the track record of this sort of thing, I'll take "even" if it's the closest I can get.  "More" would be great, mind, but at least the base DV's in SR4 was a big step in the right direction.  Go compare an Ares Predator to any submachinegun in SR1-SR3, y'know?
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: FastJack on <09-05-10/1535:55>
Quote
HMG's have burst fire and full auto mode so that levels the playing field (literally).

There are barrels and then there are -barrels-. Sniper rifles boast accuracy of 1/4 MOA something that any machine gun (light, medium or heavy) simply can't claim. It might help to think of machine guns as area denial weapons, you go into their field of fire and you are denied life. Sniper rifles are on the other hand are high value target weapons, snipers are trained to target officers, radio men, machine gunners, exposed tank commanders, etc..

Once you get into the .50 BMG range, technically those are anti-material rifles (and about as much fun to shoot as being hit by Mike Tyson).

True, also you usually try to kill the target from afar with the sniper, let's say your on a roof and try to kill a corporate big shot in another building, so if for some reason you miss or the target is not dead (god knows how a shadowrun is never as easy as it seems) then you have to get your sorry ass in the building to finish the mission. For that reason the security will also be increased. So even if the sniper is strong, it's still a weapon that you will use only in certain circumstances and if not used properly can alert the enemies of your presence.(well about alerting the enemies, same could be said of a HMG, but that's a given since it's going to do a lot of noise XD)
Of course, proper use of a missed shot can set up better situations for certain types of runs.

For instance, you take a missed shot on a certain Ares VP. Typical Ares MO might be to dial up security, evacuate the higher echelon corpsuits and send out patrols to find the shooter. Now, they will most likely send a good portion of their elite troops as bodyguards to the suits and send out the second string to find the shooter. That leaves the third stringers patrolling the grounds. Sure, they have a heightened level of security, but if you are able to get your team in disguised as Ares security, you might be able to get in a lot easy for data-grabs and similar types of runs.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Caine Hazen on <09-05-10/1907:29>
too much focus on the .50 BMG cartridge here... remember, as times ahve changed, snipers are moving away from it.  .338 lapua and the .416 are getting quite popular now on the scene.  You can cary more ammo and they are designed specifically for the sniper role.  you can imagine 50 years further on that ammo is going to get more specific to that role.  Which is why you might see that difference in the damage codes.  As well as the guns being perfectly balanced and designed for the roles, meaning that the hits are going to happen as the shotter wants (which would be in the areas of the lightest armor)
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Critias on <09-05-10/1918:04>
But...but...but .50 is such a nice round number!   ;D
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: FastJack on <09-05-10/1934:28>
Hmm... .35 caliber hyper-velocity rounds. Maybe upgraded to have a "splitter-coating" that would shatter AP glass so the bullet can travel through it. Add a rocket propellant to the bullet, getting some extra 'oompf' and distance from the shot...
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-05-10/1952:03>
The .50 BMG is an incredible round but there is some other great rounds out there as well. Cheytac's .408 is a relatively new arrival on the scene and has impressive ballistic performance. The company claims to have developed an AP that can penetrate a half inch of AR500 steel at 775 yards!

The .338 Lapua Magnum is a proven anti-personnel round, with potent ballistics. It has the added benefit of being fired from rifles that don't weigh 30.9 lbs compared to the Remington MSR (that chambers the .338 Lapua) only weighs 13 lbs! Given the choice of which I would rather have to carry out in the bush...no question which one I would choose.  ;D
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <09-06-10/0114:27>
I spent some time around/training with different Spec op teams in my time in the Army A friend of mine swore by his weighted M16, simple and easy.....allows him to pull the same ammo draw off the rest of his crew, unless he has a mission that demands his specific talents as a shooter (which is very very rare) he did all his over watch work with what was good for him and his team over longer periods of time being in the field. Did he have the availability of different weapons, hell yes...and other teams went out with higher end weapons, but he loved his 16!
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Casazil on <09-06-10/0120:47>
But...but...but .50 is such a nice round number!   ;D

So is a 1.0 a nicer round number? :P
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Tarot on <09-06-10/0122:26>
Once you get into the .50 BMG range, technically those are anti-material rifles (and about as much fun to shoot as being hit by Mike Tyson).

I have to disagree with the above statement. The AR-50 is an absolute joy to shoot. You gotta remember that with the higher caliber sniper rifles you have a pretty hefty muzzle break and you have to shoot it from the prone position (usually mounted on a bi-pod). I don't think I wanna meet the dude that can stand and shoot one of theese things  ;D
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: FastJack on <09-06-10/0206:33>
Once you get into the .50 BMG range, technically those are anti-material rifles (and about as much fun to shoot as being hit by Mike Tyson).

I have to disagree with the above statement. The AR-50 is an absolute joy to shoot. You gotta remember that with the higher caliber sniper rifles you have a pretty hefty muzzle break and you have to shoot it from the prone position (usually mounted on a bi-pod). I don't think I wanna meet the dude that can stand and shoot one of theese things  ;D
Ahh... so now we come to the point where we introduce the Troll Gunner.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-06-10/0218:54>
The AR-50 weighs in at 33 lbs. so that no doubt helps with the felt recoil.

But you are right, I should have prefaced my statement that I don't find the .50 BMG a fun cartridge to shoot. Maybe if I was younger with a lot less wear and tear on me I would.  ;D

In SR though, yeah a 900 lbs. troll would be able to handle a .50 BMG rifle all day long!!!
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: FastJack on <09-06-10/0223:48>
Has it ever been published what caliber a Panther fires? The SR4 just says the ammo is common to the primary weapon in many small tanks...
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-06-10/0225:30>
IMS, it is a 30mm HE cannon round.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-06-10/0231:55>
Oooowww!

Forest Gump, "And that is all that I have to say about that."  ;D
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: FastJack on <09-06-10/0238:42>
Well then. That explains that. :D
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-06-10/0250:47>
They do sting a bit...

But oddly enough, some sniper rifles match them, even with a smaller caliber.  Just one of those things, I guess.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-06-10/0301:01>
It does at that!  ;D

How about this?

"Don't look conspicuous; it draws fire. For this reason, it is not at all uncommon for aircraft carriers to be known as bomb magnets."
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Kontact on <09-06-10/0316:37>
I've seen nothing in any of the descriptions of SR HMGs which would lead me to believe that they fire .50 BMG rounds.

All the descriptions include things like hip-pad braces and under-mounted tripods. 
All the pictures include standard stocks and such.

They're not M2s, that's for sure.


As to sniper rifle damage being higher, I agree with JS to an extent.  Damage is abstracted, and the level of precision in a sniper-purposed weapon allows for such a higher amount of in-built control as to justify increased damage from better placement.  Still, regardless of whether you're using a sniper rifle, or an ill-designated HMG, whatever you're shooting at is in very bad shape.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Scruffy on <09-06-10/0743:02>

I just looked it up.  The Brit got the shot off in May of this year.  The previous record of 2430 meters (~7972 feet) was made by a Canadian in 2002, though I can't find what weapon the team used.  Both are still impressive, as they beat the 35 year record of Carlos Hathcock, one of the greatest snipers the world has ever seen.

Check these wiki links;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper

look at sections; 3.3.1, 11.2 & 11.3

They mention all the details such as name, nationality, weapon & range. Hathcock may have not had the longest shot, but not using a sniper rifle has got to be hard.

As far as the game (4th ed), I usually choose either a Remington 950 with AV rounds [8P -5AV 1775] or sometimes an Ares Desert Strike with AV rounds [8P -7AV 5350]. Both with Gas Vent 3, Sound Suppressor, ext Smartgun.
 The Remington has its advantages because its legal, cheap and its decreased range over the Ares is usually irrelevant due to the urban nature of most runs. Whereas the Barrett 121 with the same is only [9P -8AV 10100] and is both more difficult to obtain, illegal and expensive should you need to ditch it.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-06-10/0818:41>
Gas Vent and sound suppressor?
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Kontact on <09-06-10/0856:33>
Yeah, you can switch between Suppression and Gas vent with a "changed linked device modes" action.

You know, for when you go full auto on your.. semi-automatic.. sniper rifle..  ???
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Caine Hazen on <09-06-10/1155:43>
IMS, it is a 30mm HE cannon round.
I kinda figured 20-25mm myself, kinda like the "smartrounds" from the OICW's grenade launcher.  Although the idea of the smaller grenades and the assult cannon really start bluring together if you think too much about it :D
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-06-10/1605:51>
True.  However, cannon rounds have a larger charge behind them.  This launches them further and faster than grenades.  It also can provide some armor penetration, whereas with a grenade the firer is only concerned with getting it to the target.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Casazil on <09-06-10/1718:22>
Don't get me wrong I like the sniper rifles in game but the set up takes time.

While I have characters who do use them I far prefer the pistols (pull an shoot) or the SMG's (spray and pray)
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: 1 on <09-07-10/0146:39>
"If the Attacker benefits from Good Cover, or his cover obscures his view, apply a 2 dice pool modifier to any attacks."

This is perhaps one of the most frustrating rules about sniper rifles. If you have good cover, even if it doesn't obscure your view in any way, for example, you're firing through an open window, nice and comfortable, you get a -2 to hit.

Now I understand why they needed someone on the grassy knoll. Oswald had a -2 to hit Kennedy.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-07-10/0227:31>
Yeah, that is one that I disregard.

Dey got dese things called scopes...that ya look thru at yer targets.  ;D

Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Scruffy on <09-07-10/0501:51>
Gas Vent and sound suppressor?

Yeah my mistake, I haven't played a sniper in a long time. You can't fit gas venting to a rifle anyway, I just re-read the rules (properly this time  ;D). My point about the Remington over the Barrett still stands though, in Shadowrun it pays to go with weapons that lean towards disposable. I have been in games where players have had to ditch weapons mid-run, and most runs won't pay enough to replace a 10,000+ heavily modified rifle, plus whatever else you might need to ditch.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/0524:22>
Gas Vent and sound suppressor?

Yeah my mistake, I haven't played a sniper in a long time. You can't fit gas venting to a rifle anyway, I just re-read the rules (properly this time  ;D). My point about the Remington over the Barrett still stands though, in Shadowrun it pays to go with weapons that lean towards disposable. I have been in games where players have had to ditch weapons mid-run, and most runs won't pay enough to replace a 10,000+ heavily modified rifle, plus whatever else you might need to ditch.

That is so true I remember playing in one game and the rigger keep looseing drones so he started useing cheap ones.

Same goes for weapons and armor buy what you can replace cheaply
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-07-10/0546:46>
"If the Attacker benefits from Good Cover, or his cover obscures his view, apply a 2 dice pool modifier to any attacks."

This is perhaps one of the most frustrating rules about sniper rifles. If you have good cover, even if it doesn't obscure your view in any way, for example, you're firing through an open window, nice and comfortable, you get a -2 to hit.

Now I understand why they needed someone on the grassy knoll. Oswald had a -2 to hit Kennedy.
Grassy knoll?  Please.  Someone said they saw smoke come from it.  Modern weapons use smokeless powder.

Also, it has been proven that someone can make all the shots in the span of time Oswald had to take his shots.  And modern forensic science has explained the whole "magic bullet" controversy away.

Not that there couldn't be more people involved behind the scenes, but you only needed one person shooting.  The killing of Oswald is a little too convenient.

RE:  The cover penalty.  For the most part I wouldn't penalize someone who hand picked their sniper position unless they were in an extremely awkward spot.  If they had near total cover (-4 cover or better) then I might give them the penalty to represent the awkward contortions they put their body in.  It all depends on location, really.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/0548:15>
um shots there was only 1 bullet.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-07-10/0549:19>
No, there were five (5) shots taken during the assasination.  The one through Kennedy's head was just the killing one.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/0551:18>
Ahh see I had no Idea I never was big on the whole thing I may be old but not that old  ;D

I saw the Kevin Costner movie though  :P
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/0852:25>
Ahh see I had no Idea I never was big on the whole thing I may be old but not that old  ;D

I saw the Kevin Costner movie though  :P
Watch the Quantum Leap episode Donald P. Bellisario made in response to JFK. He took a very detailed look at what was really known about Lee Harvey Oswald.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Turtletron on <09-07-10/1026:30>
Quote
Posted by: Casazil

Quote from: Scruffy on Today at 04:01:51 AM
Quote
Quote from: John Schmidt on September 06, 2010, 07:18:41 AM
Gas Vent and sound suppressor?

Yeah my mistake, I haven't played a sniper in a long time. You can't fit gas venting to a rifle anyway, I just re-read the rules (properly this time  Grin). My point about the Remington over the Barrett still stands though, in Shadowrun it pays to go with weapons that lean towards disposable. I have been in games where players have had to ditch weapons mid-run, and most runs won't pay enough to replace a 10,000+ heavily modified rifle, plus whatever else you might need to ditch.
That is so true I remember playing in one game and the rigger keep looseing drones so he started useing cheap ones.

Same goes for weapons and armor buy what you can replace cheaply

Also the same for vehicles, a smuggler don't want to lose his heavily modified armored truck for some stupid mistake, so he needs to be careful which vehicle he chooses before the run.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Kontact on <09-07-10/1038:45>
"If the Attacker benefits from Good Cover, or his cover obscures his view, apply a 2 dice pool modifier to any attacks."

This is perhaps one of the most frustrating rules about sniper rifles. If you have good cover, even if it doesn't obscure your view in any way, for example, you're firing through an open window, nice and comfortable, you get a -2 to hit.

Now I understand why they needed someone on the grassy knoll. Oswald had a -2 to hit Kennedy.

Note that being prone more than 20 meters from the target/shooter counts as good cover.

Now who would dare dream of firing a sniper rifle from a prone position?!  Especially at a target 20 or more meters away!  :o
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-07-10/1152:29>
Controversy!
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-07-10/1159:11>
Ahh see I had no Idea I never was big on the whole thing I may be old but not that old  ;D

I saw the Kevin Costner movie though  :P
Watch the Quantum Leap episode Donald P. Bellisario made in response to JFK. He took a very detailed look at what was really known about Lee Harvey Oswald.
For a TV episode, it was superior in its collection of facts than the movie which, I feel, was made to cater to the baby boomer conspiricy theorists and get bunches of money.

A movie maker out for a cheap buck?  Egregious!
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/1913:40>
Ahh see I had no Idea I never was big on the whole thing I may be old but not that old  ;D

I saw the Kevin Costner movie though  :P
Watch the Quantum Leap episode Donald P. Bellisario made in response to JFK. He took a very detailed look at what was really known about Lee Harvey Oswald.

Quantum Leap now there is a show I haven't heard in awhile lol so did sam jump into Oswald?? was this before or after the switch of who was leaping?
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/2002:32>
Sam and Al switching was an one-episode deal. After that it was back to just Sam.

He leapt into Oswald, but something was screwy with the leap and he leapt into him multiple times throughout Oswald's life, and Oswald's memories/personality were bleeding over into Sam.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/2016:21>
AH I see. I thought they switched longer oh well.

I watched the show on an off from time to time.
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: DarkLloyd on <09-08-10/1700:23>

That is so true I remember playing in one game and the rigger keep looseing drones so he started useing cheap ones.
Yeah. And you fraggers still havn't paid back but one of those things!!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Odd things, those sniper rifles.
Post by: Casazil on <09-08-10/1813:48>
At least I'm not the GM who took the entire stash you had