Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Previous Editions => Topic started by: FastJack on <09-03-10/1752:30>

Title: [SR4] House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-03-10/1752:30>
So, you think you know better than the guys that get paid the big bucks*? Or you just don't agree that a Dragon should take any damage from a rocket launcher?

Well, here's a place to put your money where your mouth is. What are some of the house rules you use for the game.

Over at Dumpshock (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=idx), I recently started a thread on giving free Build Points during Character Creation to make sure everyone, even the surliest, ugliest, meanest trog, can have a Contacts even if they blew their BP on gear/resources.

A common rule for the PBP was to give the characters Charisma x 2 BP for free to use to buy Contacts. I upped it, thinking that you should get (Charisma + Etiquette)*4 free BP for contacts.

So, discuss this, add your own rulings, but play nice kiddies. Hate to sic Cap on ya.



*Personally I think the developers are some of the best in the world, and deserve the big bucks** they make.

**If they aren't making big bucks, why don't you go out and buy some books so they CAN make big bucks?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: gruegirl on <09-03-10/2341:05>
It's really *REALLY* easy to make overpowered contacts if you plan ahead.

A 6/6 politician for example could logically be (or after doing jobs for him, promoted to be) an ambassador. Which means in nearly every major city you can run into a consulate, and anyone who chases you has committed an act of war.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-03-10/2356:12>
It's really *REALLY* easy to make overpowered contacts if you plan ahead.

A 6/6 politician for example could logically be (or after doing jobs for him, promoted to be) an ambassador. Which means in nearly every major city you can run into a consulate, and anyone who chases you has committed an act of war.
Hell yeah! I like how you think girl!

How about a 6/6 Corp contact. Just a small Vice President of Ares. Or MCT. That way you get the BFG's and access to delta clinics.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: street.mage on <09-03-10/2357:15>
But but but....People in power are busy.  A politician has to be careful with how he acts, or he may just be the target of a wetwork, or at least be voted out in the next election as he will make an enemy.  Politicians don't like enemies, at least enemies they can't make look bad.  And who says Mr important is going to be around when the runners call?  Important figure heads don't always answer the comm.  And they want to be caught and hacked at a rally for Mothers for Metahumans talking to shadowrunners?  Yeah right!  ;D

In my game I make it clear:  if they have a connection of 6, that means more eyes are on them and the higher the number, the busier they are.  That means it will be harder to contact them when the clock is tickin'.  If they have a loyalty of 6, that means they're your best bud.  Unless you and the contact are like peanut butter and jelly, you can only go DOWN.  Best friends don't charge best friends for info, and if they have to, they give a good discount.  AND the runners aren't always going to be the ones asking for help.  Friendship and contacts is a two way street, you know!  If the runners refuse to help, the loyalty decreases.  If the contact helps the runner through his connections and he has to stay "cautious" for future "favors," his connection rating goes down.  This makes most of my players stay at least by the "4" area.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-04-10/0000:53>
Well, yeah. It definitely means doing a run or two here & there for them at no-charge. But if you get all the benefits of being an official spokesperson for the high & powerful contact...

Hey, it's just another way to sell your soul.

Speaking of which, I still miss Hatchetman.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Wayfinder on <09-04-10/0111:54>
House rule I've used is no contact above a combined rating of 10. So a 6,4 or 4,6 at the highest. This allows for roleplaying advancement of the contact and gives good reason for the GM to restrict unbalancing advanced items from being available too early. The key I've always found to long term gaming is to give players enough to feel rewarded (and have that cool new toy!), but not to let them have all they want.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Troll on <09-04-10/2014:12>


Speaking of which, I still miss Hatchetman.

Seconded.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-05-10/0314:25>

Speaking of which, I still miss Hatchetman.
He will be missed.  Let's raise a glass to him.

<Drinks scotch>
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Turtletron on <09-05-10/1129:36>
Maybe keeping it to charisma x 2BP is a better solution, might give everyone someone they need, but not powerful enough to cause any problems for you in the future. For my part I always give my players one Fixer, usually something around connection 3/loyalty 2, someone who helps newbie shadowrunners but that keeps it business. If they have bought a better fixer, good for them and they can concentrate on buying a contact that can be used for something else, like a fencer to buy things of the smuggler.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-05-10/1437:22>
Well, with the new Group contacts rules in Runner's Companion, (Cha+Eti)*4 makes it lot easier for Faces to have multiple group contacts.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Turtletron on <09-05-10/2115:13>
Quote
Well, with the new Group contacts rules in Runner's Companion, (Cha+Eti)*4 makes it lot easier for Faces to have multiple group contacts.
Didn't know about group contacts, i'll go take a look, thanks.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-06-10/0102:44>
I currently running the home group through all the adventures ever written so I'm mix some 2nd ed rules with 4th seem to be working well.

If I had the drive I'd probally go through all 4 versions and make a new game of it useing what rules I feel are best for an overall game.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-06-10/0204:26>
A few years after 3E came out, when the d20 OGL was available, I created my own home-rules based Shadowrun d20 creating classes and such. Of course, I don't think I was the only one...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-06-10/1738:38>
EWWW!!!! D20 Shadowrun thats Thats Blaspheme
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-06-10/1811:59>
EWWW!!!! D20 Shadowrun thats Thats Blaspheme
Hey! I was trying to convince a bunch of gamers that refused to learn a new system to play SR.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-06-10/1814:40>
They make drugs to help with that ya know.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Tex Muldoon on <09-07-10/1206:18>
EWWW!!!! D20 Shadowrun thats Thats Blaspheme
Hey! I was trying to convince a bunch of gamers that refused to learn a new system to play SR.
Just don't tell them anything. That's how I did it. Just got my group together and said "I am running this, and you will play it,"
The rest is in the shadows.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Dino on <09-07-10/1249:04>
Let's see, a few of our house rules that I can remember off the top of my head:

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Darkeus on <09-07-10/1309:13>
Let's see, a few of our house rules that I can remember off the top of my head:

  • All magical skills are defaultable for magically active characters: Otherwise PCs without Aura Reading can't assense even the simplest of things, and astrally projecting characters who didn't buy Astral Combat are utterly helpless against astral attacks.
  • No Arbitrary caps on Qualities: Go ahead and take all the negative qualities you think you can get away with, just be prepared for the ref to use them against you during your adventures.  ;D

Your first one is a very good idea.  I might steal that one.  It makes sense that all awakened should have some "instinctual" ability to use astral combat or assense somebody.

The second rule is pure madness.  Shadowrun already has enough min/maxers in teh community.  That is opening an can of worms!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Darkeus on <09-07-10/1310:53>
BTW, I do not allow Stick N Shock armor or Emotitoys.  Those have no place in Shadowrun.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/1405:28>
Regarding the qualities, I adjust the caps to say that you can't have a Total 35BP at character creation (so they're still good for 70 BP of positive qualities, as long as they have at least -35 BP of negative qualities).

Emotitoys I think have their place, same as the personality software for electronics. I see it as non-Technomancers trying to imitate the TM's Sprites...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Darkeus on <09-07-10/1449:44>
There is no "Noir" or "Dystopia" with a toy that magically hypnotizes marks for social interaction.  Seriously, what kind of Johnson would hire some runner walking around with an empathetic digimon?   Not I said the fly!

Sorry, the tech does not fit teh theme of what I see Shadowrun as being so therefore it is useless.  Not to mention there is more of a tendency of misuse with those things.

Eh, to me they do not fit my "vision" of what Shadowrun is about.  Emotitoys kind of clash with the setting.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/1505:13>
There is no "Noir" or "Dystopia" with a toy that magically hypnotizes marks for social interaction.  Seriously, what kind of Johnson would hire some runner walking around with an empathetic digimon?   Not I said the fly!

Sorry, the tech does not fit teh theme of what I see Shadowrun as being so therefore it is useless.  Not to mention there is more of a tendency of misuse with those things.

Eh, to me they do not fit my "vision" of what Shadowrun is about.  Emotitoys kind of clash with the setting.
Oh, I'd never use one, but I wouldn't turn them down if I was running the game. Too many chances to wreck a character's karma. "Oh, you're sneaking into the Azzie temple?" <rolls dice> "Oops, it looks like your yummi-gachi emotitoy is hungry and begins crying. Loudly."

Nobody's saying you have to use it, but I know a lot of girl gamers (and a couple guy gamers) who would use it, because it makes the setting more real for them.

And, before I leave this, I'd like to point out that among my group of friends, who are highly technologically minded (most own multiple computers, multiple gaming platforms and a smartphone - even though it's not required for their job), the most popular things the download are sound-effect buttons for their Droids, playing Mafia Wars & Farmville on Facebook, and Lego Star Wars on their Xboxes.

Just because life is serious, doesn't mean you don't have fun.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-07-10/1516:30>
I'm pretty much with Darkeus on this one. I'd allow the toys in public games if I'd run any (which I don't), but with any new private player/group I talk to them about my views on these things. So far, everyone has agreed to give those buggers the boot for good.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Darkeus on <09-07-10/1714:20>
There is no "Noir" or "Dystopia" with a toy that magically hypnotizes marks for social interaction.  Seriously, what kind of Johnson would hire some runner walking around with an empathetic digimon?   Not I said the fly!

Sorry, the tech does not fit teh theme of what I see Shadowrun as being so therefore it is useless.  Not to mention there is more of a tendency of misuse with those things.

Eh, to me they do not fit my "vision" of what Shadowrun is about.  Emotitoys kind of clash with the setting.
.
And, before I leave this, I'd like to point out that among my group of friends, who are highly technologically minded (most own multiple computers, multiple gaming platforms and a smartphone - even though it's not required for their job), the most popular things the download are sound-effect buttons for their Droids, playing Mafia Wars & Farmville on Facebook, and Lego Star Wars on their Xboxes.

Just because life is serious, doesn't mean you don't have fun.

And this is further proof that even relatively intelligent people will play or download anything sometimes!   :P

Seriously, I have been using computers since the Apple IIe, I am one of those "highly technological minded" people and I do not:

Play any game on Facebook (Why when I have REAL games on my PC and 360?)
Download apps (Seriously, some are really useful, most of them are total crap to waste money on)
Play Lego Star Wars.  I prefer the Force Unleashed or maybe the Old Republic MMO when it finally hits.  :)

And I am still having tons of fun my man.  Like I said, the emotitoy does not add anything except another piece of gear to help min/max.  I am sure you have been playing Shadowrun for a while and as you should know, Shadowrun does not need any more help on the Min/Max department.  Especially in 4th edition (Or do I need to bring up Mr. Lucky, or the Pornomancer?  As worthless as I see those characters, they can still be made.)

Yeah, gotta say again, emotitoys are not Shadowrun.  Some anime RPG setting?  Yeah, maybe.  Shadowrun?  No way....
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/1813:44>
I'm not trying to say that you have to use it, or even agree with it being in the game. I'm just saying that it's a flavor item that some people like in the game.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/1835:15>
BTW, I do not allow Stick N Shock armor or Emotitoys.  Those have no place in Shadowrun.

It took one eading of the toy vs. the emotion software and all my players said never to the toys
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/1836:47>
Let's see, a few of our house rules that I can remember off the top of my head:

  • All magical skills are defaultable for magically active characters: Otherwise PCs without Aura Reading can't assense even the simplest of things, and astrally projecting characters who didn't buy Astral Combat are utterly helpless against astral attacks.
  • No Arbitrary caps on Qualities: Go ahead and take all the negative qualities you think you can get away with, just be prepared for the ref to use them against you during your adventures.  ;D

Your first one is a very good idea.  I might steal that one.  It makes sense that all awakened should have some "instinctual" ability to use astral combat or assense somebody.

The second rule is pure madness.  Shadowrun already has enough min/maxers in teh community.  That is opening an can of worms!

I once allowed my players to make I think it was 500 bp characters with as many qualities as they wanted to use so long as the positives = the negitives then I gave them all amniesia
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/1844:24>
Seriously, I have been using computers since the Apple IIe, I am one of those "highly technological minded" people and I do not:

Play any game on Facebook (Why when I have REAL games on my PC and 360?)
Download apps (Seriously, some are really useful, most of them are total crap to waste money on)
Play Lego Star Wars.  I prefer the Force Unleashed or maybe the Old Republic MMO when it finally hits.  :)

Yeah, gotta say again, emotitoys are not Shadowrun.  Some anime RPG setting?  Yeah, maybe.  Shadowrun?  No way....

I also have used computers a long time (although not really that "highly technological minded") but I'm right there with you on not playing facebook games and I don't even own an app capable phone.

My MMO of choice however is World of Warcraft.....For now.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Darkeus on <09-07-10/2018:20>
Seriously, I have been using computers since the Apple IIe, I am one of those "highly technological minded" people and I do not:

Play any game on Facebook (Why when I have REAL games on my PC and 360?)
Download apps (Seriously, some are really useful, most of them are total crap to waste money on)
Play Lego Star Wars.  I prefer the Force Unleashed or maybe the Old Republic MMO when it finally hits.  :)

Yeah, gotta say again, emotitoys are not Shadowrun.  Some anime RPG setting?  Yeah, maybe.  Shadowrun?  No way....

I also have used computers a long time (although not really that "highly technological minded") but I'm right there with you on not playing facebook games and I don't even own an app capable phone.

My MMO of choice however is World of Warcraft.....For now.

I resist WoW because I know I will play it for the rest of my days....  :)

That is why I really should not play The Old Republic MMO.   I know what is going to happen....
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/2021:52>
Well if it helps my friend Barry will be right there with you and I'll stop seeing him in WoW :'(
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Darkeus on <09-07-10/2026:02>
Well if it helps my friend Barry will be right there with you and I'll stop seeing him in WoW :'(

Lol.   That is hilarious. 

Anyway, back on to house rules.   ::)

Yeah, sorry if I seem very "passionate" about SnS ammo and Emotitoys.  I just have a hatred....

Ugh, just personally don't like them.  YMMV as always!   ;D
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Captain Chaos on <09-07-10/2026:49>

So, discuss this, add your own rulings, but play nice kiddies. Hate to sic Cap on ya.

Sic Who on whom?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/2030:20>

So, discuss this, add your own rulings, but play nice kiddies. Hate to sic Cap on ya.

Sic Who on whom?

AH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :o :o :o :o :o he's Multiplyed!!!!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Erghitz on <09-07-10/2054:46>
One House Rule in effect in my games right now is spirits are weaker.

Immunity to Normal Weapons is only at Force instead of double and a player may only use half it's edge at will to augment rolls. The other half can be used if the spirit feels the need.

Great Form Spirits have the normal double force for Immunity to Normal Weapons and normal amount of edge to burn.

I was toying with the idea of weakening (IE Make more interesting to me) sorcery combat. Physical Manifestation combat spells are the only spells to have the ability to hit multiple targets. LOS Instant damage spells can only be used on one target at a time or you have to multi-cast in order to hit more than one person.

-- Erghitz

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Wayfinder on <09-07-10/2239:56>
I have to say that emotitoys have their place in the Shadowrun universe. I'm not saying that because of the min/max potential rather in spite of it. The dystopian future is one built of consumerism, hence the Megacorps. If the latest trend is one that the smart runner can use to his/her advantage then I say it totally belongs. There are always fashion trends that go to the absurd, some would say that a multicolored mohawk is one of those. Yet that same rainbow do has become a staple of the genre. And really it has nothing to do with being technologically minded it has more to do with what the upper classes of the social order currently call cool. If the Lindsey Lohan or Paris Hilton of the 2070's suddenly decided that wearing a clown costume was the sexist thing ever, then you'd see club kids wearing them, then street punks, then up and coming runners. If said runner then used the extra space in the suit to conceal more armor or weapons then that's just being smart. Looks stupid but adds to the min/max of the character.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/2259:26>
Hell... look around today. If you told me twenty years ago that it would be fashionable to wear pajamas in public, I'd have slapped you.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-07-10/2336:34>
It was fasionable to were PJ's 20 years ago too............................Just ask Hef ;D :P
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-07-10/2338:34>
You have a point there...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: raggedhalo on <09-08-10/0612:12>
House rules I use when I run SR4:

 
House RuleReasoning
Change Availability of hacker programs to Rating*3, making maximum starting rating 4.Gives more room for growth in hackers
Everyone starts with (Charisma + Intuition)x2 BPs worth of ContactsIncreases the importance of contacts
While you're learning a new skill, you take no penalty for defaulting to it. That is, if you were learning Longarms, then while you're learning you would be able to roll Agility, rather than Agility-1, to hitMakes sense as you know a little bit
If you have a legitimate, non-criminal SIN, you can buy legal licenses for Restricted gear by paying 10% of the item's cost, or 100 nuyen (whichever is more). Not with fake SINs because the risk of detection is way too high.
Autosofts and simsense programs (e.g. skillsofts) aren't available as pirated programs but don't require SIN linkageHad a very hard time understanding why you'd need to update these programs but wanted to keep game balance
Reaction Enhancers stack with Wired ReflexesBecause otherwise they're really rather pointless.
Change Called Shots to target vital areas to increase damage so that the negative dice pool modifier is double the DV bonus (so +4DV causes -8 to the dice pool). Max DV bonus remains +4.Makes calling shots to target vital areas much less auto-win. Still better than the average return on rolling dice, though.
We round like maths says.Because maths wins.
Change DV of Stick'n'Shock ammo from 6S(e) to -S(e), meaning that it does the weapon's normal base damage, changed to Stun and electrical.Makes them less "all win, all the time" on smaller-calibre guns, and makes Gel Rounds viable too.
Change movement rates to 4m walking/12m running (human, elf, ork), 3m walking/10m running (dwarf) and 6m walking/18m running (troll).  Critter walking speeds would be reduced to 40% of their current level and running speeds to half their current level.  Vehicle Speed and Acceleration ratings are unaffected. In line with average human walking speed of 4-5km/h, then amended to allow for running rates and other metatypes. Also makes shorter-range weapons a bit more useful.
Add your weapon's recoil compensation value to the dice pool you roll when using Suppressive Fire.Otherwise it's assumed that the recoil comp and wide burst modifiers cancel out, effectively making recoil compensation meaningless in suppressive fire situations.
All new characters start with the following: Computer 2, Data Search 2, Dodge or Gymnastics 2, Etiquette 2, Infiltration 2, Perception 2 and one of the following skills at 2 - Blades, Clubs, Pistols, Thrown Weapons or Unarmed Combat.This is the minimum you need to be a competent professional shadowrunner and it ensures that everyone has the really simple bases covered.
You roll Cybertechnology skill, not Engineering skill, to reprogram hard nanites.Because Engineering skill doesn't exist, whereas Cybertechnology has a Nanotechnology specialisation
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/0625:05>
@ raggedhalo

Interesting changes there.  I've seen folks give the free BP's for contacts before.  I'll have to evaluate that.

Skillsofts need the liscenses (and resulting SIN linkage) because, like every piece of software everywhere, updates to the technology become available every so often.  Think of how often your anti-virus updates it's program (mine did so recently, so it's in memory).  Not just the definitions, but the program itself.

Reaction Enhancers always stacked with wired reflexes, unless you read something I didn't.

The called shot damage mod gives me something to think about.  I'll need to evaluate that, too.  Thanks for the idea.

I'd always thought the Stick-n-Shock damage mod was a bit on the big side.  I also always thought it odd that the large rounds don't do more damage.  This may be a balance choice, however, ensuring that the lighter weapons see more use.

Movement rates in games have always been problematic.  I like your reasoning here, though.

Yes, no recoil on suppressive fire seemed counter-intuitive to me as well.

Yikes, don't know that I'd give new players THAT many free skills.  I just always assumed that unless they were incompetent or uneducated (via the qualities) that they can roll the dice just fine.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: raggedhalo on <09-08-10/0650:58>
You're kinda half-right about Reaction Enhancers - under SR4A, they do stack, but pre-SR4A (i.e. straight SR4) they didn't.  I've not run anything under the SR4A rules (yet) so hadn't noticed the rules change.  Hurrah!

The thing with skillsofts is that while software gets updated, the knowledge of how to shoot a gun or drive a car doesn't.

As for the free skills, it's quite a lot of BPs, for sure, but they're all fairly basic areas and and I like to focus on the professional/black trenchcoat end of things, rather than the hilarious/pink mohawk style.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-08-10/0657:23>
Wow, that makes SnS absurd. (well, more absurd)  Does anyone in your games use anything else? 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0658:32>
Change DV of Stick'n'Shock ammo from 6S(e) to -S(e), meaning that it does the weapon's normal base damage, changed to Stun and electrical.

Did you change the AP value?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: raggedhalo on <09-08-10/0704:24>
Wow, that makes SnS absurd. (well, more absurd)  Does anyone in your games use anything else? 

Actually, it largely makes them less absurd - people were using them to bulk out pistols, SMGs, and the like, bumping their DV up to 6 when it started lower.  Given that most Assault Rifles, LMGs and MMGs do 6P, my change offers no incentive to use them in these weapons where you otherwise wouldn't - thereby not changing the level of absurdity.  It also offers a distinction from Gel Rounds (+2S) and makes the choice between the two less clear-cut.

Did you change the AP value?

Didn't, but probably should set it to 0.  Hmm.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-08-10/0707:43>
Electric damage means armor is still cut in half, unless you changed that as well.  Yes, it makes it less good in pistols, but still superior to anything else.  And for actual gun bunnies, you just changed everything into a gauss rifle.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: raggedhalo on <09-08-10/0713:31>
Electric damage means armor is still cut in half, unless you changed that as well.

Unless they're using appropriately-insulated armour, which pretty much anyone with any sense does.

Yes, it makes it less good in pistols, but still superior to anything else.  And for actual gun bunnies, you just changed everything into a gauss rifle.

I don't get a lot of actual gun bunnies in my games - as above, I prefer the black trenchcoat style (i.e. tact over dakka) to the pink mohawk.  Are you proposing a more general nerf to SnS or just ignoring that in the majority of firearms, my change makes SnS less, rather than more, absurd?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-08-10/0718:24>
I guess I should caveat what I say with "SnS doesn't exist at my table, and I have a burning hatred of it."  As do my players for that matter.  

If you're players don't abuse it, that's great, and that's what important.  But as written, there is a lot of abuse potential there.

And insulation doesn't protect against the armor being halved, just adds its rating to the armor value vs that type of damage.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: raggedhalo on <09-08-10/0722:48>
And insulation doesn't protect against the armor being halved, just adds its rating to the armor value vs that type of damage.

After it gets halved, which usually means that you're no worse off than you were before, and sometimes better...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0723:50>
We took SnS out of our game, too. We also ruled that Reaction Enhancers don't stack with anything. They are the cheap reaction enhancement for low level security guards. Gives them an edge and doesn't cost as much as Wired Reflexes.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/0737:40>
We took SnS out of our game, too. We also ruled that Reaction Enhancers don't stack with anything. They are the cheap reaction enhancement for low level security guards. Gives them an edge and doesn't cost as much as Wired Reflexes.
The only problem is that previous editions had them stacking with anything.  Anything and everything stacked with RE's.  That was the point, to have them enhance someone's reflexes up past what wired can do alone.  Also, they are NOT cheaper than wired reflexes.  Wired 1 costs 11k nuyen while RE's cost 10k per rating point.  Unless you get the bonus passes, there's no point in boosting.  (Which makes more sense, 10k for 1 reaction or 11k for 1 reaction + init pass?)

Low level sec guards that I've seen either have wired 1 or they have chemical boosts.  An inhaler that lets them pop Kamikaze puts them on even footing with high end punks and low level shadowrunners.  And it gives them an edge over random street people.  It's also tons cheaper than both, as you only need to spend the hit when the facility gets hit.  As a corp, which would you use for a low priority target?  A 10k nuyen mod, an 11k nuyen mod, or 105 nuyen for a dose plus an inhaler?  The chemical route is more cost effective for low security targets.  That's what you'll be seeing in those areas (most likely).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lansdren on <09-08-10/0741:27>

One house rule concerning S&S ruonds i'm considering to put to my group is that net hits dont raise the damage potential of the shot so its 6S regardless but otherwise keeping it the same. In my mind it balances it out enough leaves it viable for non leathal takedowns.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0743:08>
I have to admit, once we took them out of the stacking picture... we never used them anywhere ever again. Not as players, not as GMs. I never noticed they were that expensive. Oh well.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Max Anderson on <09-08-10/0754:00>
I don't use the rule that says the damage is Stun if the DV is no greater than the armor at my tables (and most of the GMs I know don't). With form-fitting body armor and cybernetic armor (or Mystic armor), a character can get only stun damage even when the DV is important (10 or above). In my games, bullet and explosives and such are deadly... or harmful, that's the way it is.

I considered, too, doubling the modifier for calling shots. Seems a little more balanced this way.

On the emotitoy, while I find the concept really cool, the rules don't seem to fit with the description. To me, emotitoy should only give a bonus to Judge Intention tests, and that's all. That's already something, and it's much more logic to me.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/1018:06>
I don't see a big issue if the armor knocks it down to stun.  Once the stun track fills up, unless they have a pain editor, then they are out of the fight just as if they were dead.  And if the team doesn't get everyone out soon enough, they WILL be dead.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/1031:41>
Plus, most Sammies have got a lot less stun damage track boxes than physical boxes. They might only take stun damage, but they go down a bit faster.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/1035:36>
Which is an oddity of the rules.  A better way to track might be to average Body and Willpower and use that figure to determine the number of boxes for BOTH the stun and physical track.  This would still let the trolls be big and beefy but keep them from dropping from a slap to the back of the head.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/1052:33>
So trolls would get more stun track boxes (massively highter CON) and could therefor take more stun spells, which they resist with their traditionally lower Willpower... eh?
Seems like an interesting approach, feels not right though :/
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/1144:26>
It at least gives them a chance.  I didn't say it would make them invulnerable (wouldn't want that anyway).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: anotherJack on <09-08-10/1418:38>
Knowledge skills :
As characters are often karma burners, with great greed for it, investments in knowledge skills seem less attractive than more "vital" functions, such as "perception", "dodge", not to mention attributes and so.
While character creation, the free points in knowledge skills allows the player to grant some knowledges to his character without brute power loss, I regret there's no special rule for knowledge skills in the charater's evolution system.
Think either splitting karma rewards between classic karma points and knowledge allowed karma points, or granting free knowledges skills relatives to the adventure events may allow players to develop their character's knowledges without having the feeling they're messing with karma points.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/1438:33>
Knowledge skills :
As characters are often karma burners, with great greed for it, investments in knowledge skills seem less attractive than more "vital" functions, such as "perception", "dodge", not to mention attributes and so.
While character creation, the free points in knowledge skills allows the player to grant some knowledges to his character without brute power loss, I regret there's no special rule for knowledge skills in the charater's evolution system.
Think either splitting karma rewards between classic karma points and knowledge allowed karma points, or granting free knowledges skills relatives to the adventure events may allow players to develop their character's knowledges without having the feeling they're messing with karma points.
How about if they up their Logic or Intuition, the total BP for the Knowledge skills goes up?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: anotherJack on <09-08-10/1651:40>
Why not, but it means brutal upgrades of knowledges from time to time instead of a more fluid progression.
And characters with high logic and intuition and no need to up em would be penalized in new knowledges acquisition, sounds a bit paradoxal, doesn't it ?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Darkeus on <09-08-10/2310:24>
Killing SnS in your game makes SR4A a better game.

Otherwise, I pretty much play as written.

Well, sometimes I handwave the Matrix when it isn't something important to the plot, if that can be considered a house rule.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: voydangel on <09-09-10/0400:46>
In my group, we agreed that we could accomplish a few things all at once by applying a little logic to the way we play with armor and encumbrance. The primary reason for this is that we like to try to reduce the amount of dice getting tossed around the table. By adding only a wee bit of bookkeeping and math, the realism goes up, the amount of dice rolling goes down, and combat goes faster. We have found this to work well in practice. However, if anyone sees any glaring problems with any of these house rules I have listed, especially the armor/encumbrance rules, please let me know so that we can address them. My group consists primarily of math nerds, so we like number crunching. And, oddly, don't tend to min/max much, so we tend to not see the flaws in our logic at times, cause were just not looking for exploits...

First a logical basis for some of the rules:
1. "Armor only protects what it actually covers."
2. "Called shots to bypass armor and/or get bonus DV are too generalized."
3. "Armor is restrictive and/or heavy. Even with all the new ultra breathable 2072 stuff, when you stack on that many layers of clothing, it gets harder to move, and can start to get kinda burdensome."

So, using that logic, here's how we work it in my gaming group:
1. "Any items that would normally fall under the umbrella of the helmets and shields rules only count for called shots to the area protected by the piece."
2. "Called shots to legs and arms are at -4. Called shots to hands, feet, or head are at -7. Called shots to bypass armor can be used to bypass individual pieces of protection. Disarming is unchanged."
3. "All armor ratings (both ballistic and impact, but not magical or natural) are added together at full value when determining armor encumbrance penalties. However, you calculate your limit by adding your (modified) agility, body, strength and reaction, instead of just body x2."

We also say that everyone starts with (Charisma x2) bonus BP to spend on Contacts (only). They can still spend their 'stock' BP on more contacts if they want of course.
When "hacking on the Fly", the threshold the opposing system needs to find you is the hackers (stealth + spoof), rather than just stealth.


Also, kudos on a few other rules I've seen on here - we might incorporate them into our game. Those are:
Change Availability of hacker programs to Rating*3, making maximum starting rating 4.
Change DV of Stick'n'Shock ammo from 6S(e) to -S(e), meaning that it does the weapon's normal base damage, changed to Stun and electrical.
Change movement rates to 4m walking/12m running (human, elf, ork), 3m walking/10m running (dwarf) and 6m walking/18m running (troll).  Critter walking speeds would be reduced to 40% of their current level and running speeds to half their current level.  Vehicle Speed and Acceleration ratings are unaffected.
All magical skills are defaultable for magically active characters: Otherwise PCs without Aura Reading can't assense even the simplest of things, and astrally projecting characters who didn't buy Astral Combat are utterly helpless against astral attacks.

Also, I would like some thoughts on the following house rule that we are considering:
"Hits (total, not net) generated when making hacking rolls are limited by your Logic + Intuition, much like hits on spell-casting rolls are limited by the force of the spell."

If anyone would care to comment on any/all of these? I am always very interested in feedback, thoughts and ideas to make our games run smoother and faster.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-09-10/0414:42>
When "hacking on the Fly", the threshold the opposing system needs to find you is the hackers (stealth + spoof), rather than just stealth.

Uhm... but... hacking on the fly doesn't involve Spoofing anywhere...? So whats the reasoning behind this?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: voydangel on <09-09-10/1712:27>
The idea was based on the description of the Spoof Program:
Quote
You can use Spoof programs to generate false access IDs and forge misleading data packets with the intent of confusing Track programs.
So, although hacking on the fly doesn't necessarily use "Spoofing" as written/described on pages 232 or 236 of the 20A core, we felt it was within the scope of the program as described.
After all, "generating false access IDs and forging misleading data packets with the intent of confusing" the system security programs is more or less just a way of describing how one is "hacking the node".

So it makes sense to us. Plus, it makes "hacking on the fly" less of a never-to-be-used-last-resort, since when we use the RAW, it was so dangerous that no one ever really bothered doing it. We would always just make sure we did a whole lot of probing before a run.

Doing it this way makes people more inclined to try hacking on the fly in the middle of a mission, which in turn makes the runs more plan-then-lets-go-do-it-action-packed style, and more "in your face", and less plan-plan-plan-plan-plan-plan-execute. for us anyway.

EDIT: We had kicked around the idea of making the Nodes Analyze+Firewall test opposed instead of extended, using the logic that said test is really just a matrix perception test using firewall in the place of computer since the node doesn't have a computer skill. Based on this assumption, the perception test would be an opposed test (based on the perception test rules stating that when the target is using stealth the test becomes opposed). We opted to add to the threshold instead - based on the idea that if you were to end up with a really high stealth program you would never ever be caught in an opposed test, whereas by just upping the threshold you were still "catch-able", but just not as easily.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: voydangel on <09-10-10/0010:20>
oh. Just thought of this... Does anyone else find it strange that Delta grade ware has the same availability as standard grade ware? Or is there an availability modifier somewhere that I missed? If not, does anyone use a house rule for this oddity?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Critias on <09-10-10/0019:11>
Augmentation has some fluff on custom chrome being harder to come by than the more basic stuff, and has a -1 availability for secondhand cyberware...so there's a background precedent for it being harder to find a good enough doc to implant beta and deltaware, and there's a rules precedent for cheaper stuff being easier to find.  You are, however, apparently correct in that there's no actual, rules-driven, availability modifier for grades of cyberware, besides that.

You're still limited to Basic and Alphaware (and secondhand, I would assume) at character creation, but it looks like after that, the sky -- and your credstick -- is the limit.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-10-10/0020:45>
oh. Just thought of this... Does anyone else find it strange that Delta grade ware has the same availability as standard grade ware? Or is there an availability modifier somewhere that I missed? If not, does anyone use a house rule for this oddity?
Huh... Never noticed that before. You can't start off with Beta/Deltaware, but the availability of Beta is pretty good as long as you got the nuyen. The Deltaware has always only been available at the Delta Clinics (by invite only), so it's a GM call whether you can get it or not.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Critias on <09-10-10/0024:52>
We keep meeting like this, you're gonna have to change your user name to SlowJack.   ;D
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-10-10/0028:42>
Dude, it's not my fault I research before I type. ;)

But if you want to buy me a new laptop so I can search my PDFs quicker...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Critias on <09-10-10/0030:34>
What's that?  FastJack, asking some no-good Elven merc for the nuyen to upgrade his hardware?

For shame.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-10-10/0033:52>
What's that?  FastJack, asking some no-good Elven merc for the nuyen to upgrade his hardware?

For shame.
I never turn down donations to fight the good fight. (Especially after I just spent $115 on Amazon buying the Quintet Books [Ar, Aug, RC, SM, Unw]).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Casazil on <09-10-10/0635:10>
You should have joined the Demo team run a few Missions and got the free PDF's lol
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-10-10/0930:04>
Oh, I already have the PDFs, I'm getting the hardcovers for use when I start up my campaign. A number of the players are new to the system and won't have the books. And, no, I don't intend to let them run wild with the advanced rules right away, but there are bits and pieces in each of the books that I'm going to allow for their character creation...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: voydangel on <09-10-10/1311:10>
Yea, I was aware of the secondhand modifier, and the delta clinic thing and most of the fluff stuff. But I was hoping that I had just missed a paragraph somewhere. Seems like that would be ripe for a house rule. I mean, yea, cred is king and all that, but getting your hands on a Beta version of wired has got to be harder than finding a Standard version of the same ware. I would probably say A=+1, B=+4, D=+10. These numbers would represent a combination of the difficulty in finding both the ware itself, and a clinic to put it in. Of course, the Delta ware clinic would also be limited by the GM allowing it in the 1st place in game, in addition to the availability check modifier.

Unless.... I suppose you could explain it away as "the reduction in essence cost is due to a better Doc/facility rather than a difference in the ware itself", that would at least explain why it's just as easy to get the ware itself. But then you would need to figure out some rules for determining how good the doc/facility is, etc. And, you would have to ignore that little tidbit where the book says that "Beta and Delta are designed, modified and customized to better fit the original/intended user" as well... probably not worth the effort.

Anyone else have an opinion on this matter?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-10-10/1333:13>
There isn't a modifier for availability for Beta or Delta upgrades, nor should there be.  If your character manages to get access to a Beta or (Ghost forbid) Delta clinic, then the run that they performed to find/earn from a Johnson is the availability modifier.  Those grades of cyber or bio should not be handed out just because someone had the face roll some dice and PING they get it.  That is what happens if you make it an availability check.

If the characters get access to one of those clinics, then they really don't need to roll anything for availability, now should they?  If the clinic doesn't happen to carry it in stock at the moment (represented by base availability as a guidline) then they can manufacture it within a few days, ready to be slapped into your precious meatbag street sam ASAP.

As for Alphaware, that stuff is available off the shelf just like the regular stuff.  Think about it like getting a generic Wal-Mart brand cordless drill vs. a DeWalt cordless drill.  The store probably has both, but we all know DeWalt will have higher quality and cost more.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: voydangel on <09-11-10/1414:03>
Thats a pretty good point. I had kinda viewed it like that, and that is how I run it as well, but it just seemed kinda odd that there wasn't a hard and fast rule for it. But yea, I completely agree with you nut. Good call. =)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-12-10/1012:34>
Yea, sometimes people forget the roleplaying part of it (everyone does, I've done it, too).  Making it a straight dice roll takes a lot of fun out of getting new 'ware.  I'm sure you just hadn't considered that angle, yet.

Of course, had you done so in game, you would have seen the Face become reaaaalllyy popular reaaalllyyy fast.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Captain Chaos on <09-12-10/1446:48>
There isn't a modifier for availability for Beta or Delta upgrades, nor should there be.  If your character manages to get access to a Beta or (Ghost forbid) Delta clinic, then the run that they performed to find/earn from a Johnson is the availability modifier.  Those grades of cyber or bio should not be handed out just because someone had the face roll some dice and PING they get it.  That is what happens if you make it an availability check.

You mean the Availability 24/1 week Delta Clinic the face can just roll some dice and Ding, you get access?

(Seriously, check Augmentation, page  122.)

I think there is a disconnect between 2065 and 2070 in terms of availability of Delta Ware.  Before 2070 Delta was ultra rare, there was maybe 50 or so delta clinics world wide.

Now? Delta's just a very hard to get and very expensive. It's not some mystic thing whispered of only in the shadows.
It's just a rare, expensive thing that only a few people could afford.

Sort of like going from a top secret prototype car to a limited run production model.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-12-10/1454:19>
Makes you wonder if there's Omegaware out there somewhere...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-12-10/1457:49>
Makes you wonder if there's Omegaware out there somewhere...

Cybermancy, anyone?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Captain Chaos on <09-12-10/1807:52>
Makes you wonder if there's Omegaware out there somewhere...

Cybermancy, anyone?

Only 12 delta clinics in the world can do that!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-13-10/0038:00>
Makes you wonder if there's Omegaware out there somewhere...

Cybermancy, anyone?

Only 12 delta clinics in the world can do that!

So that's a "yes".
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <09-13-10/0857:50>
Y'know, 12 clinics... figure 6 months to create a cyber-zombie... that's 24 CZ's a year.

Think about that, next time you wanna hit a AAA headquarters.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-13-10/0912:52>
Gee, thanks, like my shrink didn't have enough to dig out of my head already...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Muspellsheimr on <09-13-10/1724:30>
http://www.mediafire.com/?qmbcaq75505k8 (http://www.mediafire.com/?qmbcaq75505k8)

Please note that the majority of the linked files are incomplete.  Further, some files may contain House Errata that was later altered after playtesting.


The intent of this House Errata is to balance the game without limiting options, effectively making any character concept a viable choice mechanically, while removing "must have" options. A significant portion of these rule alterations are made under the assumption that the House Errata is being used in it's entirety, and may not function correctly if used as a stand-alone rule.

While every rule has undergone analysis and found to work as intended, not every alteration has had appropriate playtesting, and as such may be changed once used in game.


The linked files will be updated to current House Errata documents when (if) I fully update and finish my personal copies; as I am not currently in a game (let alone one using these rules), there is no timeframe for when this will be accomplished.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: WareWolf on <02-22-11/2006:26>
I really think this thread should be stickied.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Tagz on <02-22-11/2112:54>
I use a fair number of them.  I'll list a few of the more important ones.

Emotoys exist but they can only help a player with a teamwork test.  A hacker can alter the code to allow it to export it's raw emotion software feed, however.  This hack cannot be done during character creation and must follow all the programming rules found in Unwired.

SnS replace damage with a static 6S(e), no hits adjusting the damage.  Though I have reconsidered it a while back and will likely change it to +0S(e) -half AP or (maybe -1S(e) -half AP, I need to playtest it and see how each work out) up to 6S(e) -half AP, but will wait until the current campaign is completed to not change the ruling midway through.

All spirits have a built in vulnerability (per Running Wild rules, bypasses ITNW and +2DV) that is specific to their tradition.  Examples include Hermetic: Silver, Shamanism: Bone, etc.  Main reasoning is to provide a way to beat ITNW, but only if the characters in question do their research or if they just happen to use silver bullets all the time they'll get lucky every now and then.

Learning Knowledge Skills only takes half the interval of learning Active Skills.  This is to encourage investing karma and downtime into them.

Spirit Burn (Redlining Spirits):
Available to all Possession spirits.  A Simple Action may be spent by a Possession Spirit to allow it to exceed it's vessel's Augmented Maximums.  Physical Attributes may be increased to the spirit's Force.  This is stressful to both vessel and spirit and will cause 2x the amount of raised attribute values each combat turn to both.  Use body to resist, tracking vessel and spirit tracks separately.  Spirits will almost never Burn willingly and must usually be ordered with use of a service, this counts as spirit abuse in most cases.

All purely mundane characters have 7 essence rather then 6.  Anyone with a magic or resonance score (or a future magic or resonance score as the case with latents) has the standard 6.  This is just to give the purely mundane a little love.

At character gen, characters get free contact points equal to 2x their Cha score.  The contacts they make with the free points are capped in Loyalty by their Etiquette (minimum 1), and capped in their Connection by Negotiation (minimum 1).  Contacts bought with BP do not have this restriction.

Increasing the DV of Direct Spells with Net Hits will modify the Force of the spell cast, but not be subject to overcasting rules.  IE:  Magic 6 Mage casts Powerbolt at F6, gets 3 hits.  If he uses them to increase DV then the Drain Value will be calculated at F9 but be Stun damage as the original spell was not overcast.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: inca1980 on <02-22-11/2123:55>
Isn't the last one RAW already since the net hits on a direct spell only increase the damage and drain DV but don't increase the actual Force of the spell? 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Dakka on <02-22-11/2135:47>
Increasing damage of spells due to hits is an optional rule, and Tagz house rule is actually slightly better since spells drain value is force/2 he only increases the drain 1 point for every 2 hits not every hit.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Tagz on <02-22-11/2203:02>
Not quite, by RAW the addition occurs AFTER the division of Force.  So the Force 6 manabolt spell with 3 hits by RAW increases to 9P damage, Drain of 6S total.
((6Force/2) = 3) + 3net hits = 6DV.

My house rule adds the extra drain DV BEFORE the division, so Force 6 manabolt with 3 added hits makes 9P damage Drain of 4S total.
((6Force + 3net hits = 9)/2) = 4.5 rounded down = 4DV.

Two main reasons I do this:
1) The optional rule as listed seems too harsh, making good rolls feel meaningless
2) Makes casting and applying net hits equal in drain to overcasting at a higher force and not applying hits.  This reduces the incentive to overcast to get similar damage values.

*Edit, thanks Dakka, beat me to my own explanation.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: hemgath on <02-23-11/1104:00>
I really think this thread should be stickied.
That's a real good idea, and if "fast jack" can edit first post with the resume of Tagz that was cool too...

An other question about frequent house rule i read:
@ creation Martial art don't cost as an Advantage in the PQ limit... i read that in majority of SR4 forum and lot of GM use those "house Rules".
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <02-23-11/1235:45>
Hmm... Sticky, you say? Well I just happen to have some glue-tack around here somewhere...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Ten-Hex on <02-27-11/1926:01>
I modify the armor degradation rules in Arsenal to compare the modified DV against the rating of the first piece of armor struck, rather than against the full composite armor rating. So for example, the troll with ballistic armor 23 suffers armor degradation on his armor jacket with gel packs if the modified DV is 10+. His form-fitting armor, orthoskin and other assorted add-ons may protect him better, but they don't let his jacket collect full-auto rounds all day.

I also have helmets, PPP armor, cyberlimb armor, mystic armor, or any other piecemeal bonus to be exempt from degradation rules. It makes for simpler number-tracking and removes potential complications from the first armor degradation house rule.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Man Who Walks At Night on <03-02-11/2219:41>
Houses rules.. lets see..

I give free contacts (from 5 - 10 contacts with varying ratings) to my players, I write up a lil something about them, names, locations, occupations and some fluff.

Players start with 600 BP's to make their chars instead of 400. This gives slightly more powerful characters but luckily my players seems to be able to handle it by spending part of that on more knowledge skills and other fluff stuff which only adds personality but not game advantages.

Grenades go off when thrown (don't tell me grenades in 2070+ cannot be set to explode 0,003 seconds after they are thrown) - not on the next IP pass, the damage doesn't get modified for hitting walls etc though (not realistic, I know, but its a game - not a reality show :P), makes them less lethal but more useful, this is a new one and only run with it in one session so far, but I like it.

BE YOUR CHARACTER - this is not as much a rule as its a guideline, but it keeps my players from abusing the rules by giving it a tangent to realism, for instance my mages don't overcast all day long because its more efficient - because - it gives physical drain, and no one wants to endure pain unless they have no other choice, in other words, but things in perspective, its a role-playing game, characters are persons, not machines (well, arguably low essence characters.. etc, but you get the idea)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: inca1980 on <03-03-11/1350:31>
One house rule we use in my table-top group is with grenades, rockets, missiles.  The way the rules are set up, it's as if your defense roll against grenades actually move the grenade to land in a different place.  I know the rolls are abstract and all, but this is problematic when players or npc's want to simply throw or shoot a grenade/rocket/missile at a specific location instead of at a person.  So all we do is just:

1.  Roll Scatter distance and direction.
2.  Roll attack roll.  This subtracts from scatter in the usual manner. 
3.  Defense roll (with the standard -2) adds to scatter by moving a character away from the blast point by the amount equal to how many meters each of the attackers hits subtracts from the scatter distance.  The character can chose the direction as long as it's un-impeded. 

So this ends up coming out the same in terms of damage done, but just leaves everything a lot more clear in terms of where everyone ends up at the time of detonation....there's also no difference between shooting at a person and trying to shoot right next to them, it's all handled the same.

Dodging bullets can be done by ducking or side stepping up to a meter, but we just assume that for gaming purposes the character stays where he or she is when they've done a defense (unless GM states otherwise).  For grenades/rockets/missiles, this is just none-sense and the only way to "defend" against a grenade is to get the hell away from it.  RAW just moves the grenade farther away, and we feel it makes more sense to have the attacker move the grenade, the defender move himself and the final distance determines damage. 

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kontact on <03-11-11/0600:48>
Here's an Idea going back to when contacts cost money.
Contact tokens!

For every BP spent on contacts, you get 5 contact tokens.
Contact tokens are redeemed for contact ratings on an exponential scale.

So:
Loyalty/Connection 1 costs one token
Loyalty/Connection 2 costs two tokens in addition to the above cost
Loyalty/Connection 3 costs four tokens in addition to the above cost
Loyalty/Connection 4 costs eight tokens in addition to the above cost   (Still only 3 bp at this point.)
Loyalty/Connection 5 costs sixteen tokens in addition to the above cost (Now that high rating means something.  A whole 6.2bp worth of something)
Loyalty/Connection 6 costs thrity-two tokens in addition to the above.  (12.6bp means that "friends for life" or "has lofyr's number on speed dial" costs what it's worth)

Cash in extra tokens for 1k worth of gear (up to 4k max,) because sometimes you borrow your friend's stuff and it looks better on you anyway.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: LonePaladin on <03-11-11/1208:00>
What if someone wants their contacts to have varying numbers? Say, someone with Connections 1/Loyalty 4? The sort of guy who doesn't have a lot of influence, but will happily do what he can for you. Or the reverse, where you have a contact with lots of pull, but you practically have to bribe him to use it?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kontact on <03-12-11/0828:40>
"/" denotes or.  You buy each value separately, but the costs are the same whether it's for loyalty or connection rating.

So, connections 1 = 1, loyalty 4 = 1+2+4+8=15  C/L 1,4 = 1+15= 16 token points or 3.2bp

This way connections are cheaper in general (because they were too damn expensive to start with) except for the uber-contacts which are now more expensive to help emphasize their rarity.

Would have to treat the group aspect of group contacts as a separate thing maybe.  I've never been too clear on how connection and group scores interact.  Does the group part just usurp the connection part?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: LonePaladin on <03-12-11/1303:09>
Would have to treat the group aspect of group contacts as a separate thing maybe.  I've never been too clear on how connection and group scores interact.  Does the group part just usurp the connection part?
The modifiers for a group connection just increase the cost; these modifiers give you more people you can reach (thus, increasing the chance of actually making contact), or their magical/Matrix resources, or how much territory they can affect.

For instance, a local Yakuza cell would likely have a Connection rating of 3/8; while they're not especially focused on magic, they have some assets for that. They have a local Matrix node for their interests, and their territory is a district in the local sprawl. They'd probably have a few dozen people the character would know. Odds are he doesn't know them all personally, but he'll have some sort of identifying mark that would show he's in the know.

Here's the math:
(These are the same assumptions they make for a character who takes the Made Man quality.)


When it comes to calling on these guys for legwork, or a favor, he'd have no problem establishing contact, even if you use the "roll 1D6 >= Connection Rating" rule to see if they're busy. With that many people, the roll would eventually hit the required 3+, it's just a matter of time. Their direct influence is somewhat limited, but because they're part of a larger organization, they could pass a request up the chain if needed. They'd have more than one or two members with magical ability, so they may be able to whip up some ritual sorcery, and their Matrix assets extend beyond what a single commlink can pull.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kontact on <03-14-11/0036:25>
My question is about the base connection rating.  Why 3? 
The other part, the +5, yeah, that's easy enough to figure.

As to how to pay for that +5 using an exponentially graduated buy system, that's problematic.  A r6 connection already costs 10+bp, sans loyalty.  R7 would cost 20bp r8 40bp.  You see the difficulty...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: LonePaladin on <03-14-11/0045:15>
Actually, I just guessed the figures. I picked 3 'cause the individual members meet the criteria of "meets people on a regular basis and has some personal pull". When one of my players wanted a specific Yak group after him, I just guessworked all the figures (starting with the 3); it wasn't until after I came up with 3/8 that I saw the rules for the Made Man quality said pretty much the same thing.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Simon Le Bonbon on <03-18-11/1322:24>
interesting thread; ive GMed SR for only a month, but love the game already. some houserules: feel free to hate em

1. free contacts: d6 contacts for everyone, d6 loyalty & rating each
2. +20 bonus BPs for a life story, +5 BPs for detailed style
3. all damages +1 (love to hurt em)
4. no karma: I award BPs, makes things simpler
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <03-18-11/1912:36>
While the simplicity of awarding BP's is attractive, it can lead to very powerful PC's very quickly as abilities don't scale up in cost with BP's (flat rates).  If a fast track to the top is what you are seeking, then this is the way to do it.

However, magic types and technomancers will become dominant very, very quickly under this system, leaving the mundanes to wonder why they bothered with being mundane.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kontact on <03-20-11/1734:29>
There's no bp cost for initiation.


As you read more and play more, you will probably stop awarding bp.  But, that's a thing for later, when you're fully familiar with the game.
If you've only been playing for a month, simple is an attractive concept.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Simon Le Bonbon on <03-20-11/2110:22>
got to admit: although ive been playing and GMing RPGs for 22 years, the complexity of SR took me and all my players by surprise. the sheer volume of rules and technology nearly overwhelmed me initially, i guess you could say it was a real futuroshock; so it has to be simple for now. you are probably right about awarding bps: ill look into it after couple more sessions.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: inca1980 on <03-21-11/0030:12>
The thing you also don't really need to simplify all that much is the out of game stuff, cuz there's time to look through the books.  Combat does take a freakin long time in table top SR...I usually budget that every encounter, really no matter how small is gonna take minimum an hour.  Two encounters in one session can really wear the players down in terms of attention unless plotwise those encounters have really been built up.   ...Combat is the hardest to houserule though because so many people design their characters based around RAW strategy. 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Triggvi on <04-04-11/2009:29>
I like Karmagen over the BP system, it tends to create more well rounded characters.

I use the option rule that allowed adept to take metamagic for a power point up on initiation.

I don't have shot guns double recoil penalty for uncompensated recoil.
I tend to use recoil comp per action not per IP pass.
If you do two small bursts in one IP, the recoil comp is counted for both bursts. Burst fire is a great deal more accurate that full auto. 
Full auto being a complex action only gets recoil comp once.

I don't allow possession mages.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: John Shull on <04-05-11/1450:03>
To balance contacts out in my games I will roll per session the collective score 3/3 = 6 dice, and on glitch the contact needs some shadowrun reciprocation.  Run down a lead, find out who his secretary keeps having lunch with, teach his kid to fight, or get his client something special that will seal his deal.  Critical glitch is really fun as its bail me out of jail and help me find that gun I tossed down the storm drain before the cops do or some such.  Its even funner when it comes down in the middle of the runs.  Makes the relationships with the contacts much better and worse as when they don't help out and the relationship may suffer.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Triggvi on <04-05-11/1502:46>
To balance contacts out in my games I will roll per session the collective score 3/3 = 6 dice, and on glitch the contact needs some shadowrun reciprocation.  Run down a lead, find out who his secretary keeps having lunch with, teach his kid to fight, or get his client something special that will seal his deal.  Critical glitch is really fun as its bail me out of jail and help me find that gun I tossed down the storm drain before the cops do or some such.  Its even funner when it comes down in the middle of the runs.  Makes the relationships with the contacts much better and worse as when they don't help out and the relationship may suffer.

I like the role-playing aspect of this house rule for contacts. Cool
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-08-11/1251:24>
To balance contacts out in my games I will roll per session the collective score 3/3 = 6 dice, and on glitch the contact needs some shadowrun reciprocation.
Consider this idea copied. I'm trying this out next week.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Vxper on <04-08-11/1707:52>
Some rules from my GM that he's implemented in our current 4e game (the rules have been adjustable as we try things and either like them or hate them).  We have more, but they are more complicated and still not agreed has being "good" (mostly trying to fix how things work in the matrix between hackers, technos, and AI).

"Spellcasting is now broken up per school of spell (combat/health,etc), and specilizations must be made for each skill and be more specific (i.e. Combat Casting specilized in fire spells)."

"Karma Purchasing will stage over time. The cost (value) of Karma will be 100 nuyen times the number of karma awarded to the character with a maximum of 4 karma purchased per karma earned. This will slow the progressions a bit." - This was needed as we wanted to have bigger monetary awards for our game to allow for purchase of bigger toys to support global running, admitadley not the best rule for every game.


"Rather than rolling Program+Skill, Matrix actions will treat Programs and Complex forms similar to spells, their rating will limit the maximum number of applicable success. (Note, Attack Programs are already treated like combat spells)
Rolls will be Attribute+Skill+Appropriate Modifiers with a Maximum of the Program Rating
Results in requiring hackers to be mental heavy like AI and Technomancers. Better balance between the three.
Armor and Biofeedback Filter are exceptions to this rule, they continue to mechanically function like armor
Program/Complex Forms can be rushed, trading Rating for bonus dice on a one-for-one basis. "

"All Armor now counts as hardened armor equal to HALF the armors modified value, round down. This applies ONLY to the highest armor value of all stacked armor sources.
Hardened Armor rules now apply BEFORE rolling attack.
AP is subtracted from hardness directly, not subtracted from Armor before the Divide by Two

Together this means that someone in heavy military armor, rating 16, has a hardened value of 8. This means that it takes a weapon with a base damage (before rolls and multiple shots) plus armor piercing of 8 to even have a chance of hurting him. Only heavy automatic weapons will get past this level of protection.

Armor can still be bypassed with a called shot. In the above example this target would need either a big gun like an assault cannon, heavy machine gun, or sniper rifle, or an extremely good gunner to hurt the target.

Stun vs Physical Damage is still handled after the attack roll. So it is still unlikely for a heavy machine gun with normal rounds to hurt a tank with 20 armor with a single round. (Hardness 10 matched by damage 7 & -3 AP) but using AV Rounds the heavy machine gun can deal 16+ against the effect hardness 4 and armor 14. So the AV machine gun will hurt."

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-09-11/0942:05>
How does a tank with armor 20 have hardness 10?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Dead Monky on <04-18-11/1629:27>
Wizards?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blond Goth Girl on <04-20-11/1144:57>
Combat - I made some house rules that simplify it and speed it up.

Also, to cut back in sheer volume of rolls, I always ask that the players describe what they are doing. 

For instance, they state that they look in the fridge and take samples in several spots for a chemical analysis to see if there were traces of blood (like NCIS).  Yes - the PC has the chemistry background and kit to do so.  That is where the killer stored the dead body.  The PC has automatically succeeded because they thought about it and described their actions in detail.  The roll only gives a time frame as to how long it takes to do the test to get the answer.

Anyone else treat rolls the same way?

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: James McMurray on <04-20-11/1255:25>
Anyone else treat rolls the same way?

I wish I could, but our group is much more likely to have someone say "whoever's got the highest Perception pool should look for clues." If anyone thinks to look for clues at all. :)

I did start awarding a 1-3 die bonus for players who describe what they're doing. We found the rule in Exalted and Scion and liked it so much we've swiped it for other games since then.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Triggvi on <04-20-11/1257:58>
Anyone else treat rolls the same way?

I wish I could, but our group is much more likely to have someone say "whoever's got the highest Perception pool should look for clues." If anyone thinks to look for clues at all. :)

I did start awarding a 1-3 die bonus for players who describe what they're doing. We found the rule in Exalted and Scion and liked it so much we've swiped it for other games since then.

I have always been  fan of bonuses from description and flavor. It makes the sessions come alive and adds quite a bit.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Dead Monky on <04-20-11/1701:16>
My group has, from time to time, done combats sans dice.  Everyone just went nuts trying to make the combat as brutal and awesome as possible and everybody ended up describing actions for everyone else.  It was chaotic, but a hell of a lot of fun.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: nojosecool on <05-10-11/1257:30>
I just altered notoriety rules.  The basic idea is this:  Notoriety is busted into two types in my campaign.  There's brutality notoriety, and there's failure notoriety.  They write it into their notoriety box as "3/1" for "Brutality/Failure".

Your brutality points apply as a bonus to intimidation tests, but your failure points do not.
Failure points and brutality points are added together for social penalties as described in SR4A.

It makes more sense to me because there's nothing intimidating about a group that fails or quits a shadowrun.  Or, in my campaign, there's nothing intimidating about being the guy who got his ass kicked by a group of (bribed) ork gangers because he didn't understand that a lawless society isn't a society without consequences.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Vxper on <05-10-11/1550:08>
My GM has broken the reputation in to four seperated ratings as follows:

Shadow Rep: Reputation for Getting things done quietly, this reputation is generally known only to employers and sometimes victims
Street Cred: Tough guys reputation. Being the top dog and the big bad. This reputation comes from being a loud braggart and having the muscle to back it. Known to gangers, other runners, employers, and victims.
Notoriety: Doing BAD BAD things.
Public Awareness: This is how well known you are to the average public person. This is comparable to fame in many way, but you still need the fame merit to get the other bonuses. Public awareness is a positive modifier for a witness to ID you.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Psikerlord on <05-28-11/0033:25>
The thing you also don't really need to simplify all that much is the out of game stuff, cuz there's time to look through the books.  Combat does take a freakin long time in table top SR...I usually budget that every encounter, really no matter how small is gonna take minimum an hour.  Two encounters in one session can really wear the players down in terms of attention unless plotwise those encounters have really been built up.   ...Combat is the hardest to houserule though because so many people design their characters based around RAW strategy.
Ha! My group is just coming off playing D&D 4e which regularly takes 2 hours for a combat, so 1 hour sounds awesome. Course long combats are a common complaint in D&D4e. One of the things  I love about SR is the chance to down someone with one shot.  :) Having read the thread on stick n shock, we might houserule them availability 12 or something? maybe double cost ?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Ten-Hex on <05-28-11/0938:11>
I've seen a few different house rules for SnS:

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: LonePaladin on <05-28-11/1317:39>
I like the modified damage rule. That seems like the most elegant way to nerf that ammo without obviously nerfing it.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Psikerlord on <05-28-11/2200:41>
Hmm yeah ok I'm thinking availability 13 and the -1DV modified damage rule, that looks pretty good?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kid on <06-04-11/0418:40>
Don't like the Initiative rules. It makes no sense to me that a Street Sam with Wired Reflexes acts first, then the non-augmented Gangmember acts, and then the Street Sam acts two times.

I think about this house rule:

Determine when You can act in a combat turn:
(1) Determine Your Initiative Score.
(2) Divide the Initiative Score by Your IP (rounded down).
(3) Subtract the result determined in step (2) from Your Initiative Score. Do this as long as You have determined so many Action Phases equal to Your IP. In all that Action Phases (beginning with the Initiative Score) You have an Action Phase to act.

Example:
Johnny Clean has Initiative 14 and 3 IP.
(1) He rolls 14 dice and gets 5 hits. His Initiative Score is 19.
(2) 19 divided by 3 is 6 (rounded down).
(3) 19 - 6 = 13 and 13 - 6 = 7.
So, Johnny Clean will act on phases 19, 13, and 7.

If Joey Wachmann with Initiative 7 and 1 IP gets one hit and scores an Intiative Score of 8, Johnny Clean would act two times (19 and 13), before Joey Wachmann can act the first time.

Don't divide the Combat Turn into Initiative Passes any longer.

A character can move during none, one, or more than one of his Action Phases. He is free to move as he wants as long as he doesn't move more meters than his moving rate (meters/turn).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: bigity on <06-04-11/1058:03>
That is how older editions worked (sorda), and I believe it was a good game balance move to change it the way 3rd/4th edition does it.

Otherwise, non-reflex ware/magic having folk are just flat out dead meat in any kind of gunfight.  It was not uncommon to have sammies/adepts go 3-4 times before 'regular' people.

It works fine as a system, and it certainly makes trolls with Wired 3 or something a truly terrible force in combat, but it makes the game less fun overall IMO.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <06-04-11/1218:15>
Having played every edition, I'll say this:  Previous editions did something similar to what Kid proposes, i.e. the fastest going first and going often.  This meant that the street sam or the adept would take all their actions and then...combat is over.

That's it.  The fast guys killed everyone who is NOT fast.  The mage, the hacker (then decker), anyone who wasn't augmented like the combat monsters did nothing.  It became an arms race to see who could get the highest numbers first.  And while the mage could get the spell to boost his reflexes, he either sustained it himself (thus gaining a penalty) or used a sustaining focus (which, in previous editions, meant that someone on the astral could drop a fireball on the group and cook them while remaining invulnerable).  This really left the slow folks out of the fight.

Here's an example:  In first edition, the limit to the number of actions in a round was four (similar to what we have now).  Our group had a physical adept by the name of Drenaline.  While we were in Vietnam on a mission (long story), our group noticed some bad guys up ahead.  Initiative was rolled, and Drenaline ran forward, killed everyone of the bad guys, found another group of baddies, killed them, and then climbed a tree to scout out more targets.  And this all happened in a single combat round before anyone else could take actions.

The current system works much better to allow people other than speed queens (or kings) to take part.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Psikerlord on <06-05-11/0059:21>
Yep totally agree - the old initiative system meant if you weren't quick you were dead before you even got a turn. Being fast was all important. The current initiative rules are much more balanced, but still with obvious advantages to having additional turns beyond the first.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <06-05-11/0127:49>
The only one that I have made so far (from my glimpse of the book) is that I treat a Skill Group as a Skill with regards to Specialization. Meaning that you can have one, and only one, specialization in a Skill Group without breaking it up.

I.E. Johnny Two Guns has the skill group Firearms: 5. Johnny decides that he really wants to be better with ARs but he doesn't want to split his group and he can't afford to raise the whole group to 6. Johnny can purchase a specialization making it
Firearms: 5 (Assault Rifles +2). Johnny can't pick up specializations for any other skills in the group without it splitting the group.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Cynewulf on <06-19-11/1907:32>
I'll preface this by saying that neither I nor the rest of my group are gun-nuts, so this may be impractical in real life. However it is a fun couple of weapon mods that allow us to fool around with existing weapons and tailor them to our characters much better.

Quote
Increased Calibre
Slots: 2, Mod Cost: Weapon Cost
The weapon is heavily modified to chamber a larger round. The ammunition capacity is reduced by half (rounded up), recoil compensation is reduced by 1, Damage is increased by 1, and the armour penetration improves by 1. Incompatible with Decreased Calibre.

Decreased Calibre
Slots: 2, Mod Cost: Weapon Cost
The weapon is heavily modified to chamber a smaller round. The ammunition capacity is increased by half (rounded down), recoil compensation is increased by 1, Damage is decreased by 1, and the armour penetration worsens by 1. Incompatible with Increased Calibre.

Naturally we consider certain weapons to have one of these mods by default, for example the Rugar Super Warhawk, so it can not be added a second time.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: usefulidiot on <06-29-11/2012:30>
A house rule that our group started using is that if an adept takes the sustenance power then we also reduce the characters lifestyle cost by 20% since they are only eating one meal per day.

I like a few of the others I have come across on here and might try to work them into our group. Such as the build points for contacts at creation based on your karma and i also liked the one about defaulting on magical skills.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kot on <07-01-11/1359:41>
I took on a Houserule regarding Specializations. You can have as many Specializations in a skill as your rank in it, but every next after the first costs double. So, you could have 3 specializations on a skill that you have at rank 3, but the second one would cost 4 Karma, and the third 8 karma...  We'll see how that works out.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <07-02-11/0814:37>
I took on a Houserule regarding Specializations. You can have as many Specializations in a skill as your rank in it, but every next after the first costs double. So, you could have 3 specializations on a skill that you have at rank 3, but the second one would cost 4 Karma, and the third 8 karma...  We'll see how that works out.
Let me know how that works. I've been a believer of 1 skill/1 specialization, but if this works, I may change my mind.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <07-04-11/1916:27>
I've added another house rule to my home games that comes straight from the older additions.

DEFAULTING TO A RELATED SKILL
Sometimes a character wants to perform an action that he does not have the skill for, but he has skills similar to the action. If a character wishes to perform an action with a skill that he does not have, but he has a skill in the same skill group, he may default to that other skill.

In such a case, the character still suffers a -1 die penalty to his attribute for the action, but he may now add half of the skill he defaulted to (round up) to his dice pool for the action.

EXAMPLE: Jake tries to shoot a goon with a revolver, but he only possesses the Longarms skill at 4. In this case, Jake still suffers a -1 die to his agility, but since he's defaulting to a related skill he may add 2 dice (half the skill) to the action's dice pool.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kot on <07-05-11/0603:35>
Let me know how that works. I've been a believer of 1 skill/1 specialization, but if this works, I may change my mind.

Nobody took any second specialties yet, but I'll be sure to report how it goes. The cost-effective side of it should be enough to balance it out, since on lower levels it would be cheaper karma-wise to raise the skill, than to buy a specialization.

DEFAULTING TO A RELATED SKILL
Not really a good idea. Especially since Defaulting means you don't have any knowledge or training in the area.
Also, weapon use and maintenance tends to differ greatly. Yes, a person who trained with assault rifles can shoot pretty well from normal rifles, and should handle sniper rifles quite well, but pistols? Different position, aiming method, range, and such. It wouldn't do any good. For example: I did some archery training, but when it comes to crossbows, I couldn't hit a thing from just a dozen meters. The same is with guns - someone who uses them on daily basis probably had a good, broad training - like policemen, for example. That's what the Firearms skill group is for.
As for game-balance issues, that would mean taking one skill at higher levels from a group is enough. So, no more specialists, only specialists who can do pretty much anything if it's even marginally related. So, you take one skill from the group at rank 4, and receive the others at rank 1 for free. Gamebreaking.

P.S. Oh, and writing things up with huge letters doesn't help much.
Title: Ku-Leha Martial Arts
Post by: VileTerror on <07-07-11/1404:17>
Not quite a house rule, but I figured it would be more appropriate to post this here than in its own thread.  Apologies if this isn't the correct forum etiquette.
An additional Martial Arts Style, expressed such as those shown in Arsenal page 156.


Ku-Leha
Approximately translated to "Sacrificial Killing" from the Dagbani language in Ghana, which is the area the ghouls settled in the Sixth World to create Asamando.
Ku-Leha is a martial art designed to rapidly kill a living foe, so that they may be devoured.  It can be practised as an artist ritual, but the brutal effectiveness of the style has made it popular amongst ghouls the world over, and even other metahumans which possess claws sharp enough to puncture flesh (whether those be natural or augmented 'wares).

Outside of Asamando, this form of martial arts is considered entirely illegal due to the clear intent of being lethal, and only Black Market trainers are available outside of Asamando.  Areas with very high population of non-brain-damaged ghouls are likely to have a trainer or two, but they are otherwise exceptionally rare.  Non-Infected are strongly warned not to get involved with such trainers, as they are universally Infected, and infecting students with HMHVV III (or sometimes other strains) is exceptionally common (either accidentally or intentionally).

Advantages:  +AP1-per-Hit and +3 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks only after performing a successful Set-Up and while making full use of claws as a hybrid Full Offense + Finishing Move (all three Maneuvers must be trained seperately before learning this Advantage); +1 to Parry Tests made to Disarm (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice, but Disarm Maneuver must be trained seperately before learning this Advantage); +1 to Set-Up Maneuver (Set-Up Maneuver must be trained seperately before learning this Advantage)



Edit:  Increased the requirements of the Primary Advantage, which also increased the potential downfall it may cause the attacker.  Changing Subdue Advantage to Disarm Advantage.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <07-08-11/1708:59>
The defaulting rule pretty much comes directly from SR3's defaulting to a skill.

While defaulting does mean you have no knowledge or training of the skill, it doesn't mean that none of your other skills are similar. Example from Longarms to pistols or vice versa would be lining up sights, squeezing the trigger instead of pulling it, leading the target, ect.

So far, I haven't found it groundbreaking at all, but I enforce the maximum skill caps also. So if you don't have the skill and are defaulting to another, your max dice pool is twice the attribute in question. For an average runner with 5 Agility this would cap the dice pool for a default at 10.

I just have a hard time logically with being able to fire a Semi-Auto only battle rifle with an Automatics of 6, but you have to default to zero to fire a Remington sporting rifle.

Again though, house rule. Don't like it, don't use it.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: StarManta on <07-17-11/1052:19>
I'm a full week into the current SR campaigns I'm running, so I haven't had time to develop any solid house rules. Some I'm considering:
Commanding Voice only works as described on friendly or neutral characters. Using it against actively hostile NPCs results only in a -3 dice pool modifier. (Otherwise, it's just Mob Mind without drain, and nearly every combat can be ended by the adept yelling "Stand down, everyone.")

I'm considering making contacts cost Loyalty x Connection, rather than Loyalty+Connection. This would go along with offering (Charisma+Etiquette)*2 free BP for contacts.
I'm also considering splitting Connection into (Attribute+Connection), with the sum being a maximum of 8 or so, and the Attribute being the most important Attribute for the kind of character they are (LOG for a mechanic or hacker, CHA for a fixer, etc). This prevent skill-centric contacts like hackers or mechanics from being bought at Connection 1 with their usefulness being unaffected.

If players discuss strategy with each other after combat starts (outside of experienced players coaching newbies on generic combat tactics), I'll give them a time limit of only a few seconds to decide on an action or that IP is lost. In other words, they are allowed to speak to each other about as long as their characters would be able to in a Combat Turn.

I offer 2 Karma/run to a good notetaker.

After the first adventure, I use the SRM policy of allowing Karma earned on the adventure to transfer to a new character (or a rebuild of their character).

One thought for nerfing SnS rounds could be to have their DV diminish over time. First turn they do damage as normal; the second turn, the modified DV from the first turn is used as the dice pool for the DV (without adding base DV to it the second turn); and so on until it dissipates naturally. Alternately (or in addition), you can just make nonconductivity more common among your NPCs. And why wouldn't it be, in-universe, if SnS rounds are so popular?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kylen on <07-17-11/1718:12>
Well, as a general house rule at my friend's place, we replaced the Initiative BS in 4e with a general pass system. Kept the cyber and powers useful, but didn't cause aneurisms when we tried to use it.

Anyone else throw out the 4e Init system?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: PH_dungeon on <07-19-11/2212:00>
I'm currently trying to develop some Quickplay rules for resolving some of the cumbersome aspects of the game. For example here's what I have in mind for quickplay hacking. The intent is for fast, balanced resolution with the potential for non binary results (ie more than just success for failure).

One Roll Hacking Quickplay Rules:

Hacker makes a single Hacking Test for each objective the Hacker wishes to accomplish (Threshold equals the rating of the system).

Dice Pool Modifiers: Operating Hotsim +2, Operating Augmented Reality 2, Majority of programs and commlink attributes rating 5-6- +2, majority of programs rating 1-2 2.

Success Levels:

Threshold +3 or higher: Achieved primary and a secondary objective with no complications.
Threshold +2: achieved primary goal with no complications.
Threshold +1: achieved primary goal with a minor complication (possibly a trace, dumpshock or damage from IC*)
Threshold: achieved objective with a significant complication (likely a damage from IC and dumpshock or trace)
- 1 Threshold: Did not achieve objective and suffered a complication
-2 Threshold or lower (or Critical Glitch: Did not achieve objective and suffered a significant complication.

* Hackers only suffer IC damage when running hotsim and when they are hacking a system that is loaded with Black IC or Spiders. In other systems traces and dumpshock are the more likely consequences. If a hacker incurs IC damage as a result of a complication, he will need to make a standard matrix damage resistance test (Will+Biofeedback Filter) vrs damage equal to the rating of the system.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Jackleg Rooster on <07-29-11/1323:09>
Oh man I have a bunch of these. mainly geared toward a heavy mohawk game.

1. Restricted Gear Quality - Some characters have backgrounds that require things that don't jive with RAW limits. To suit this I have removed the RG quality from the game. Characters may take as much restricted gear as they can afford, however each piece lands them a distinctive style quality with no BP bonus. The Availability 20 cap is still enforced.

2. Over Modding Gear - Over modding is also allowed up to double the normal capacity of the object. Each object that is over modded is also subject to the Distinctive Style penalty. This stacks with the Restricted Gear rule, so an Availability 16F assault rifle that is over modded receives a level 2 Distinctive Style penalty.

3. Gyro Rigs (Two Gun Mod) - A gyro rig may be modified to have a second arm on it (double the cost and availability). This can be taken a character creation or built using a Logic + Armorer (8, 1 Hour) Extended Test. This allows two weapons to be mounted on the same rig. These weapons split the recoil compensation regardless of weapon type.

4. Gyro Rigs (One Hander) - Since the arm of the rig attaches under the barrel it is considered to be a suitable replacement for a second hand. This means that weapons requiring two hands (assault rifles, machine guns) may be fired one handed, if mounted in the rig, with no penalty. This can be combined with the Two Gun Mod up top for crazy gun bunny hijinks.

5. Twin-Link Program - Twin-Link is a software mod for smartlinks allows users to link their smartguns together and fire them in tandem. This program even allows two weapons, that normally take a complex action to fire, to be used together in the same action phase. When firing, make one roll, add the base DV/AP of both weapons plus net hits. Any other DV mods (Ammo, Full burst, high velocity) apply only once. If mixing guns, both must be set to the same firing mode and the lower weapon range is used, as well as the lower DV/AP if ammo is mixed. Both guns must be smartguns and a smartlink is required. Turning on or off Twin-Link is a free action. Availability 20F, 12,000 Nuyen

A few more, but I'll put 'em up later...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <07-30-11/0055:17>
Quick question, about people nerfing the SnS rounds... You ever been hit by a taser? There is a reason SnS does that much. Because electricity WORKS. And it SHOULD drop a troll in a couple shots. Don't like it, don't get hit by it. See some security goon trying to take people down with stickies, and you gang up on him.

I like to leave it as is because the only people that even look at the SnS rounds at my table are the ones that want to get in, get out, and all is quite. Covert types, or the ones that don't want to leave trails of dead security grunts. Nice little bonus for them to make their jobs easier. And they still pack EX rounds for wetwork jobs if they have to.

So what if stickies can be fired from hold-outs and do assault rifle damages. They aren't going to be burst-firing those SnS's like assault rifles can do. And the range still sucks. So, you gotta be close, and you ony have a limited amount of shots. Frankly, if someone pulled out a hold-out on my chars, the trigger gets pulled, and my body arches in electric spasms, I'm going to be thanking the great Ghosts that it wasn't a bullet to this pretty face as I pass out.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <07-30-11/0329:20>
Can't agree more, I've had the misfortune of getting tasered during my college time and it floored me before I could even think about what was happening. Word of wisdom, beware of paranoid freshmen.

That said, all I do with stick and shock is I don't modify it for autofire. I find that that alone has fixed it in my game.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: kirk on <08-04-11/1816:58>
-1 to dice pool for weapon with silencer or sound suppressor.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Charybdis on <08-04-11/1955:59>
Quick question, about people nerfing the SnS rounds... You ever been hit by a taser? There is a reason SnS does that much. Because electricity WORKS. And it SHOULD drop a troll in a couple shots. Don't like it, don't get hit by it. See some security goon trying to take people down with stickies, and you gang up on him.
I have no problem with SnS except when it comes to Added DV for bursts.
Combined with the 1/2 Impact armour

So, our houserule is that SnS do not get added DV for bursts. It breaks the sanity test a little, but leaves them mechanically balanced for use in the game.

Thematically, they can't be as good as everyone says, or the creator of SnS would (in-Game) have received a large sum of money from the Big-D's will for an accurate, non-lethal weapon over 100 yards...

And for reference, I also have been shocked by a taser. It sucks.
I've seen footage of a US Army soldier infamous for continuing his mission after being hit by a GRENADE, get floored by a taser. These things suck.... :P
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <08-04-11/2019:13>
Well when I got tased, the second dart didn't really increase the pain anymore (then again I was already on the ground struggling to avoid emptying my bladder) so I don't feel that having bursts not add SnS damage is too unrealistic. (It's my only problem with them too).

All I've ever fired with a silencer is a .45 (gotta love those friends with a class III license) , but I can honestly say it didn't decrease the accuracy at all (given we were only shooting at fifty feet). I could understand, from theory at least, dropping the range of a silenced weapon or requiring subsonic ammo for it to be used silent though.

Other things I've had the chance to test out:
Flamethrowers (Not actually illegal or even regulated in Arkansas, they're considered farm equipment but it will take five hours in lockup for the cops to realize that.)
Tannerite (Legal explosive as long as you buy the two parts separately.)
Thermite (That teacher learned quickly to double check whether we were being sarcastic about science fair projects.)


Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: kirk on <08-04-11/2115:12>
Crash, I agree about what a silencer really does. It slows the bullet to subsonic. That reduces range - or rather, it reduces effective range (the bullets travel a lot further than 'range'). It reduces the damage potential at the target. It has a small effect on accuracy, depending on how well designed the mating between weapon and silencer is.

But all that is just simpler for me to model with -1 to the pool.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <08-07-11/0152:39>
Quick question, about people nerfing the SnS rounds... You ever been hit by a taser? There is a reason SnS does that much. Because electricity WORKS. And it SHOULD drop a troll in a couple shots. Don't like it, don't get hit by it. See some security goon trying to take people down with stickies, and you gang up on him.
I have no problem with SnS except when it comes to Added DV for bursts.
Combined with the 1/2 Impact armour

So, our houserule is that SnS do not get added DV for bursts. It breaks the sanity test a little, but leaves them mechanically balanced for use in the game.

Thematically, they can't be as good as everyone says, or the creator of SnS would (in-Game) have received a large sum of money from the Big-D's will for an accurate, non-lethal weapon over 100 yards...

And for reference, I also have been shocked by a taser. It sucks.
I've seen footage of a US Army soldier infamous for continuing his mission after being hit by a GRENADE, get floored by a taser. These things suck.... :P

Accurate NON-LETHAL weapon... Problem is, with SnS, especially in burst fire, that stun track goes into the physical track after a bit of overflow, doesn't it? Too easy for it to kill someone accidentally in something like a light machine gun... Of course, if yer loading an LMG with SnS, yer a bit touched in the head....
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Onion Man on <08-07-11/0154:35>
Are you calling me touched in the head?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <08-07-11/0157:12>
*blink* WHY would you load an LMG with Stickies? That's like... Gods man, I don't even have a proper analogy for it! Can you imagine someone hit by all of that? They would look like a twitching motion capture model....
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Onion Man on <08-07-11/0200:12>
*blink* WHY would you load an LMG with Stickies? That's like... Gods man, I don't even have a proper analogy for it! Can you imagine someone hit by all of that? They would look like a twitching motion capture model....

I like overkill.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: kirk on <08-07-11/0951:21>
Quote
*blink* WHY would you load an LMG with Stickies?
Because there's no other way to have a multi-targeting taser, of course. (Autofire, long burst, wide angle, multiple targets. Yeah, you're only going to get a hit or two. each.)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <08-07-11/1007:23>
Crash, I agree about what a silencer really does. It slows the bullet to subsonic. That reduces range - or rather, it reduces effective range (the bullets travel a lot further than 'range'). It reduces the damage potential at the target. It has a small effect on accuracy, depending on how well designed the mating between weapon and silencer is.

But all that is just simpler for me to model with -1 to the pool.


Actually...that isn't what a silencer does.

A silencer disperses the gasses before they explode out of the end of the barrel, preventing the loud BANG! of the weapon firing.

Modern silencers do not significantly impact power, and actually help a bit with accuracy (they help stabilize they weapon with additional mass).

Silencers do not reduce the muzzle velocity to subsonic speeds. The bullet still makes a CRACK! That is the tiny sonic boom from the bullet. I doesn't make it truly silent, but it doesn't sound like a gunshot, either.

You can use subsonic ammunition in combination with a silencer, in which case, the loudest noises are the action cycling and rounds striking the target...but the silencer doesn't make normal ammunition subsonic.

Short version: Silencers shouldn't have penalties. If you want  to let someone use subsonic ammo, I would give them an additional -2 Perception to hear it, and reduce the range bands by maybe 20%.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crazy Ivan on <08-07-11/1039:17>
SnS in suppressive fire....Yikes.

Actually, subsonic and silencers do add a synergy bonus to each other, so it does work out.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <08-07-11/1100:27>

Actually, subsonic and silencers do add a synergy bonus to each other, so it does work out.

 
 ???

Not sure I follow...?

Isn't that what I said?

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: kirk on <08-07-11/1304:36>
Oookay, I went back and dug out books plus some manufacturer sites.

I was right the first time, JoeNapalm's correction of my second post was correct.

The bullet does not get slowed at all, much less to subsonic. The silencing effect is slowing and cooling the expanding gases.

HOWEVER, it does effect the accuracy. Modern silencers, especially when designed for and fitted to specific weapons, make the impact minimal -- but the effect still exists.  (1 to 2 moa seems to be unavoidable, 3 to 10 seems typical.)

I'll stick with my house rule: silencer mod is -1 to the attacker's pool.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <08-07-11/2318:21>
Quote
Not sure I follow...?

Isn't that what I said?

Subsonic is actually in Arsenal (gives a -1 I think to perception and -2 if you use a silencer/sound suppressor, but I don't have a book so don't quote me on it). I think that is what he was referring to. I actually just realized that it has a range penalty (20%) so I guess that comment was completely pointless on my part.

Quote
The bullet does not get slowed at all, much less to subsonic. The silencing effect is slowing and cooling the expanding gases.

HOWEVER, it does effect the accuracy. Modern silencers, especially when designed for and fitted to specific weapons, make the impact minimal -- but the effect still exists.  (1 to 2 moa seems to be unavoidable, 3 to 10 seems typical.)

Really old silencers used wipes, which the bullet actually hits on its way out. These would slow the bullet down (not to subsonic speeds really, but they were often used with subsonic rounds anyway). These had a horrible impact on the weapons accuracy, making it only effective at close range.

Modern silencers never touch the bullet. They use a series of baffles and chambers that allow the bullet to pass through unhindered, but trap the gas following it. The true barrel length has never changed and the accuracy should not be affected at all.

Now, a lot of people will feel like the accuracy has changed, because the feel of the weapon has changed and they have to adjust for it. For some reason we are a prideful race and its always the stupid machine's fault instead of ours. With the added weight and length, the entire way the weapon moves, looks, feels, and recoils is going to make it feel completely alien if you've only shot it without a silencer.

If Person A trains with a Colt 1911 and Person B trains with a Silenced Colt 1911, and they are true equals, they should have the same shot groups.

Sometimes, a barrel will be ported to allow some of the gasses to bleed off behind a bullet. This will cause the bullet to slow and reduce the power (and accuracy at a decent range), but its really not the silencer doing it as much as the barrel (since that's what is ported).

They are also starting to make silencers that work by venting the gas through chambers that puts higher than the human hearing range (like a dog whistle), but they likewise never touch the bullet.

With the tech at this level, I highly doubt things are going to get worse in this field over the next sixty years.

Quote
SnS in suppressive fire....Yikes.

Pfff...you use grenades for suppressive fire, doesn't everyone know that.  ;D
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <08-08-11/0136:01>
You use full-auto grenade launchers for suppressive fire.  FYI.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Charybdis on <08-08-11/0140:35>
You use full-auto grenade launchers for suppressive fire.  FYI.
Full auto GL's,  suppressive fire, dual-wielded
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Onion Man on <08-08-11/0141:59>
You use full-auto grenade launchers for suppressive fire.  FYI.
Full auto GL's,  suppressive fire, dual-wielded
Why stop at 2?

There's always Shiva Arms and drone mounts.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Charybdis on <08-08-11/0211:42>
You use full-auto grenade launchers for suppressive fire.  FYI.
Full auto GL's,  suppressive fire, dual-wielded
Why stop at 2?

There's always Shiva Arms and drone mounts.
We've had this discussion :P .... Splitting Dice pools six ways is counterproductive..

Just grab a very long stick with auto-targeting drone guns hanging off it, and say: 'Sic' em!'
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <08-08-11/1410:40>

Keep your 'nades and their quirky Scatter, I just want the motorcycle side-car from Snowcrash.

Should be good for about +100 to my Intimidate roll...

 :o

-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <08-09-11/0032:04>
Quote
We've had this discussion :P .... Splitting Dice pools six ways is counterproductive..

Ya, but with grenades, if you target around the people you might actually hit them.  8) Stupid scatter rules.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <08-09-11/0224:26>
If you target the fixed locations instead of ppl, then it is far easier.  Just target a spot on the ground.  It's not like it can dodge.

Honestly, this should be SOP for anyone.  It works in any game system, not just SR.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <08-09-11/0258:35>
Well technically if you are trying to catch someone in the blast, it counts as targeting them. I believe that's covered in the FAQ.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: nojosecool on <08-09-11/0857:00>
I don't remember where I was reading this, but somewhere it said that targeting people with grenades was only necessary if they're moving.  If they're standing still, then you are permitted to target the ground next to them.

So standing still = threshold 1
Moving target = opposed check

Makes sense to me.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Rivits on <08-12-11/1823:20>
Speaking of grenades, wouldn't a grenade that hit .003 seconds after it was thrown (Have immediate effect) have to be hurled at about 4000M/Sec to clear its blast radius?   ;)



One of the first house rules mentioned related to Contacts and a discussion about getting in touch with high ranking contacts.

I've just dusted off Shadowrun after a long long absence (ed2)  so this will be my first pass at a house rule.

Use an extended test with Charisma+loyalty(rating*2, 1H) to get in touch with a contact.




ps Where do I jack in to get a version 4.0 upgrade for my 3 foot high stack of SR2 books?  :)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <08-12-11/2249:21>
Right here...

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?cPath=4543&products_id=60553
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <08-14-11/0026:21>
You use full-auto grenade launchers for suppressive fire.  FYI.
Full auto GL's,  suppressive fire, dual-wielded

m32 MGL, six shot revolver 40mm grenade launcher, just don't load it with rounds pulled from a MK19 belt, it'll break your damn shoulder.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: kirk on <08-19-11/1247:29>
A new house rule for my list. WAR!'s "slow" (p 178) is, I think, a teensy bit too good. (where is the sarcasm tag, anyway). It doesn't just mitigate bullet, explosion, fall, and other kinetic damage, it eradicates it.

House rule, then, is that instead of just slowing everything to 1 meter per second (3 m per combat turn), it will reduce the velocity by 50 (per combat turn) to a minimum of 1m per second. Still keeps the 200 kg per point cap, still keeps the 1 m radius per point. It's still got abuse potential but now at least it's not, well, absurd.

Use it against that oncoming vehicle and you don't stop it, you just slow it by 50 -- which is still probably enough to hurt you. Bullets? Subtract one from DV. And so on and so forth.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Maretocks on <08-20-11/0100:18>
Our group is considering changing the rule that states that the force of the spell limits the total hits on the spellcasting test, to instead only limiting the net hits instead. This is mostly for combat spells, really. We'd already been doing it like that for almost a year now, and we only noticed that we had originally misread the rule before one of our sessions last month. We tried playing a session through with the actual rule, but it seemed a bit stupid to us that it doesn't matter how many hits you roll, the damage is completely reliant on how many hits they get on there resist test. 1 hit on the resist test automatically reduces the damage by 1, no questions asked since the hits used to match them on the opposed test and to increase the damage share the same cap. Hell, the change really only comes into effect when you roll more hits than the force of the spell, and since our mage is a 3rd grade initiate with 8 magic, he's usually tossing out force 8 spells and doesn't often roll more than 7 or 8 hits. But it makes more sense to us, since it rewards him for making good rolls, and the damage is still meh when he rolls poorly.

Opinions?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Critias on <08-20-11/0124:03>
Opinions?
*shrugs*  If it works for you and your group, it's what works for you guys.  I can see it working better for you if it's the rule you were already using, especially. 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Carmody on <08-21-11/0952:58>
In my game, Intimidation can be used either with Charisma or Strength, depending on how the character tries to indimidate someone. The point is: can anybody tell me that a Charisma 1 troll is not intimidating?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <08-21-11/1448:34>
While I would most likely see a troll a pretty scary, they aren't common in our world so  I don't think I"m very objective. That said, I think it would be the size of them that would be terrifying (Body) unless they are performing a feat of strength to intimidate (bending a rifle barrel, crushing someone's skull, etc.).

To me though, its more about portraying that you're going to hurt someone than showing that you can. Big Beefy characters already get a bonus (+1-3 for being physically imposing). If the troll is going "Troll...uhm...smash...uhm...you." Then he's probably ruined the fear as he seems less than certain or just plain dumb.

In general, people don't find people doing the following scary:
-acting dumb
-eating an ice cream cone
-drinking through a straw
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: XelosUchiha on <08-21-11/1607:13>
Our group is considering changing the rule that states that the force of the spell limits the total hits on the spellcasting test, to instead only limiting the net hits instead. This is mostly for combat spells, really. We'd already been doing it like that for almost a year now, and we only noticed that we had originally misread the rule before one of our sessions last month. We tried playing a session through with the actual rule, but it seemed a bit stupid to us that it doesn't matter how many hits you roll, the damage is completely reliant on how many hits they get on there resist test. 1 hit on the resist test automatically reduces the damage by 1, no questions asked since the hits used to match them on the opposed test and to increase the damage share the same cap. Hell, the change really only comes into effect when you roll more hits than the force of the spell, and since our mage is a 3rd grade initiate with 8 magic, he's usually tossing out force 8 spells and doesn't often roll more than 7 or 8 hits. But it makes more sense to us, since it rewards him for making good rolls, and the damage is still meh when he rolls poorly.

Opinions?

In my opinion that can make a mage REALLY powerful. If you have a mage with Spellcasting 6 + Magic 8 + various focus = 5, then he's rolling 19 Dice for that attack. If you're casting a force 8 spell, normally you'll be limited to only scoring 8 hits, but if you guys don't limit that, your mage can roll 19 successes and then he's doing 19 hits. So then, the opposed character rolls a willpower + counterspelling (maybe 7 dice) and lets say he rolls 7 successes which is the most they're ever going to make. This would now net you 12 hits, but since you're limited by force he's netting 8 hits. So 8 hits + 8 force = 16 DV. Depending on the type of spell you're casting, this could be a one hit kill. Maybe you like it that way?

But if you limit their TOTAL hits to the Force of the spell, then they're only scoring 8 total hits. So if the opposed character rolls the same seven, you're only getting a net hit of 1, which gives you a DV of 9. DV 9 is going to be much more manageable for the enemy to soak and won't be any kind of instant kill.

Effect:
With your method: a powerful mage can keep casting spells at force 8 and crippling their enemies with a force 8 spell. Reducing the drain from a force 8 is easy, I doubt your mage ever suffers drain at force 8, its almost negligible.

With the book method: since casting a spell at force 8 is only going to get a small DV through, it forces the caster to cast at higher forces. They can cast at Magic x2, so your mage could cast up to Force 16 but why would he? With the books method you'd HAVE to cast at Force 16, or even Overcasting into Force 18 or 20 if you really want to demolish an enemy. Reducing the drain from a Force 16 spell is going to be tough and the mage might take a stun hit or two. (or some physical damage if they're overcasting)

Sorry for the long post but if you want to play a game with super powerful mages that don't suffer drain, your way is fine. Some people probably prefer that and it might be easier for new players (especially new mages). But the rule in the book is meant to balance a spellcaster. if they want to do serious damage, then they have a very serious threat of suffering drain.



Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <08-21-11/2257:05>
While I would most likely see a troll a pretty scary, they aren't common in our world so  I don't think I"m very objective. That said, I think it would be the size of them that would be terrifying (Body) unless they are performing a feat of strength to intimidate (bending a rifle barrel, crushing someone's skull, etc.).

To me though, its more about portraying that you're going to hurt someone than showing that you can. Big Beefy characters already get a bonus (+1-3 for being physically imposing). If the troll is going "Troll...uhm...smash...uhm...you." Then he's probably ruined the fear as he seems less than certain or just plain dumb.

In general, people don't find people doing the following scary:
-acting dumb
-eating an ice cream cone
-drinking through a straw

Actually, acting dumb can be terrifying, depending on the situation. And a Troll in your face doesn't need charisma to scare you. Just a simple growl works. Hell, putting a gun in someone's face, and being willing to pull the trigger has absolutely NOTHING to do with charisma, and is generally considered to be pants-filling scary. But, there is no attribute to roll to figure out how badly you want to see what a hole drilled through someone's eye socket looks like. The Hulk isn't terribly charismatic, but when he shows up, somehow the entire town is scared into leaving... Because, no, I don't find pretty people to be scary in the least. I find the people with the intelligence to know how to properly use violence, or just the pure willingness to use violence, to be scary. Yeah, charisma is great for intimidation if you are BLUFFING... But, when you tell someone you are going to blow off their kneecaps if they don't tell you what you want to know, and then you do it... They are gonna listen a bit harder when you tell them the other one is in danger now. And that has nothing to do with Charisma.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <08-22-11/0056:17>
Acting primal or savage can be scary, dumb usually not so much. Keep in mind that charisma isn't just your looks, its also your ability to manipulate and make yourself believed. This ties into intimidation fine. They already have rules for STR and BOD to be included in the roll if you think about it.

You character is built like a brick, or has the muscles of a greek god, or towers above the guy?
Physically Imposing +1-3

You're waving a gun in the guys face?
Wielding obvious weapon or Magic +2

Shot him in the knee and threatening the other one?
Caused subject physical pain +2

You're well known for leaving destruction and bodies behind you?
+Street Cred and/or Notoriety
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <08-22-11/0123:29>
Acting primal or savage can be scary, dumb usually not so much. Keep in mind that charisma isn't just your looks, its also your ability to manipulate and make yourself believed. This ties into intimidation fine. They already have rules for STR and BOD to be included in the roll if you think about it.

You character is built like a brick, or has the muscles of a greek god, or towers above the guy?
Physically Imposing +1-3

You're waving a gun in the guys face?
Wielding obvious weapon or Magic +2

Shot him in the knee and threatening the other one?
Caused subject physical pain +2

You're well known for leaving destruction and bodies behind you?
+Street Cred and/or Notoriety

Still, all that, added up, and the Troll that is drolling on you in obvious hunger, that just shot you in the knee, and is looking at the other one like it needs some lead infusion too... Yer saying THAT'S as Intimidating as the really pretty and smooth elf? ((Going with a Cha 8 elf.)) The one that couldn't even lift your feet as you were being hauled in the room? People don't cough up the info because you can manipulate them into thinking they're scary... That's Con. Not intimidate. No sirrie bob. I would actually believe Intuition before Charisma for Intimidate. At least with Intuition, you are trying to get in their head, and figure out what's gonna scare them the most.

Final thoughts, Charisma is never scary. Shouldn't be used for Intim rolls. Find something else. And for the love of Ghost, roleplay it. One of my favorite scenes was actually an intimidation scene. First thing my char did when he walked in the room was shoot the bastard in the leg. THEN he started with the torture... And it still took five rolls to finally get the average shmoe to break down... Cause my ghoul had crap Charisma!!!!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <08-22-11/0140:43>
Charisma isn't about being pretty. That CHA 8 elf isn't just good at making friends and telling party jokes. It also allows him to portray himself in the way he thinks you'll believe. You could go the INT route, but you can use the reasoning for INT for all the social skills if you want. Its not about what the elf can do to you, its about what he makes you believe he can do to you.

Unless you're trying a brute force method (as you described) to get information, intimidation is highly about manipulation.

A big muscled troll (Imposing +3) with a gun (+2) that just shot you in the leg (+2) will only be rolling as many dice as that troll if he has a CHA 1. In that case, there is a good point that the troll isn't even getting across the point he really wants. He's horrible at dealing with people at all, not just manipulating people. Keep in mind, the Troll is still better off at this point than the elf that is just sitting there, because the subject is taking wound penalties to resist because of that missing kneecap.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <08-22-11/0345:35>
Ah, wound penalties... My great equalizers... How I love and loath you...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: k_night on <08-26-11/0742:10>
even better is having the troll do his stuff as a teamwork roll for the elf face who is doing the talking,
if the subject isnt talking by then ...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <08-31-11/0909:36>
Hiho, I'm planning on creating new house rules for characters with SEVERE multiple personality disorder, since the current negative quality available in augmentation doesn't quite cut it for what I have in mind.

What I'm trying to achieve is to have a set of rules for multiple personalities that are REALLY fraggin' different from each other.
Since this can get incredibly complex really fast I could probably use massive amounts of help and critique for rules that I overlooked or that have an inadequate power level. So please, share any suggestions or thoughts you have on the matter.

Disclaimer

These rules should be handled with utter care due to their complexity.
They are specifically meant to provide players wishing to explore them with an additional option for creating interesting characters and a wide array of role playing possibilities.
However, they are NOT meant as a tool for munchkins hoping to create omnipotent Mary Sues. I hope that the rules I designed so far will give most of these players a hard time trying to abuse them. If you happen to find a way to abuse these rules, please report it here so it can be ruled out as soon as possible.

Please note that any and all numbers used are mainly meant as examples, although they do represent what I feel are appropriate values.
If you feel different, please feel free to voice you oppinion here.

So, let's get to the real stuff, roughly ordered from basic to specific rules:

The Basics

If you want to create a character with severe MPD, first you'll have to use your BP (or Karma or whatever - so far I really didn't bother to try any of the alternate character creation rules) to create the basic character as in:
all according to the character creation rules.

Then you also buy the quality "severe MPD" for 10 BP per additional personality you want to have. This quality also reduces your essence by 0.5 points per additional personality you take, to reflect the stress this quality causes to your very soul.
The quality does not count towards the 35 BP maximum for positive Qualities or negative Qualities.

After you've done that you go ahead and copy that sheet for every personality - best keep a copy of the basic character as well so you and your GM will have an easier time sorting through this giant mess :D It can also help you keep track of karma, money, equipment and damage later in the game.

The Personalities

Each personality gets the amount of leftover BP to use on it's own. So if your basic character is left with 100 BP, every personality will get 100 BP for itself.
Now you can go ahead and use these BP to finish building each personality seperately, including:

Please note that every personality has to be built according to the rules of character creation. For example, no personality can have more than 35 BP worth of negative or positive qualities (including qualities "inherited" from the basic character). No Skill Group can exceed a rating of 4 and so on. I think everybody understands how these rules are intended, so I'm going to trust people to use them accordingly without me having to go through the pain of explaining every character creation rule.
Also note that you cannot change any information "inherited" from the basic character for obvious reasons.
In the end, every personality you created has to be a legal character on it's own!
It is also possible (and very likely) that every personality will have his/her own name. This is up to the player to decide.

Awakened Characters And Technomancers

Since magic, adept powers and technomancy are supposed to rely on genetics as well as on the personality of the character, they require special rules when used in combination with severe MPD:

How Personalities Are Switched

This is a variation on the rules presented in Augmentation, meant to ensure that the character(s) don't become utterly useless in combat:

It is generally assumed that the player can decide what personality is active at the start of a new run. Exceptions to this rule are explained under "Character Improvement".
Whenever the character is subject to high amounts of stress (GM decision), or whenever (s)he wakes up after more than one hour of sleep, (s)he has to make a Willpower + Charisma (3) test. If (s)he fails this test, her personality changes randomly - chose an adequate method according to the number of personalities to determine this (like throw a coin if you have two additional personalities, or throw a D6 and roll again on 5 and 6 in case you have 4 additional personalities).
Note that the personality definitely has to change, a character can't end up with the same personality again!
Exchange your character sheets. Transfer any damage, physical or stun, to the new personality - after all, you still only have one body ;)
Add an additional point of stun damage that cannot be resisted, to account for the headache caused by switching personalities (this does not apply when your character changed personalities due to sleeping)
Any effects like drugs used or spells cast on the character will also persist. Some sustained mind controlling spells might lose their effect though - the character gets an additional spell resistance roll. Again, it is up to the GM to decide what effects fall under this rule.
Also check the "Awakened Characters And Technomancers" section to see what effects a switch of personalities has for these characters.

After the personalities switched the new personality will have to adjust to the situation first:

Contacts

Since no personality knows what the other personalities did while having control over the shared body, each personality will have to aquire contacts on it's own.
However, most contacts won't know about the character's MPD in the beginning. Whenever a contact...contacts (for lack of an adequate synonym) a personality that does not know him/her yet (for example via a commlink account shared by the personalities), it will assume that (s)he is talking with whatever personality (s)he knows.
After all, all the personalities look and sound pretty much the same.
The personality will automatically get to add the new contact to his/her list for free. However, the contact will interpret any personalities (s)he doesn't know yet as strange - the loyalty of the contact added to the list of the "strange" personality will be 1 (for loyalty 1-3), 2 (for loyalty 4+) or even 3 (loyalty 4+ and connection 4+) lower than the loyalty to the original personality, until the contact knows of and accepts the characters disorder.
Note that the loyalty modified this way cannot be lower than 1.
Any permanent change in loyalty caused by one of the personalities will usually also affect the contact's loyalty towards any other personality in the same way - regardless of whether the contact knows of the disorder or not ("If one of your personalities is acting like a royal rak towards me, it doesn't really matter whether or not I like your other personalities. I just don't want you around me, omae")

Every enemy one of the personalities makes won't make a difference between the personalities - all of them will have to add the unmodified enemy, whether they actually know him/her or not.
If one of the personalities gets the "enemy" negative quality on character creation, all of the other personalities get it too, but without getting to add any BP for it.

Character Improvement


Okay, I think this is it. As I already said before, please share any suggestions and critique you have. If I have completely overlooked a set of rules that need special definitions for characters with severe MPD, please also tell me where I can find the original rules.
Title: Doctor House Rules?
Post by: VileTerror on <08-31-11/1249:56>
I would like to offer, just for future reference, Valnar:
Sex is the biological aspect (male, female, intersexed, hermaphrodite, etc.), while gender is social, emotional, mental, and (if you believe in it) spiritual aspect (masculine, feminine, androgynous, etc.) which together define a (meta)human's sexual identity.
So, under "The Basics" I would put "sex (although the gender can be different for every personality)" as a minor tweak to the language used.

Sex Sciences (because I think "Sexology" sounds a little silly) was nearly my chosen career path after university.  I still get passionate about the subject.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <08-31-11/1706:49>
Alright, I changed it. Thank you. What do you think of the rules as they are? I'd really like some general feedback, since I'm pretty new to Shadowrun and therefore lack the experience balancing house rules other players might have.
Title: Rules House.
Post by: VileTerror on <08-31-11/1714:47>
Well, I'm no expert, but I believe that a specific physical entity (regardless of the personality/soul within it) can only have EITHER Magic or Resonance, and never both.  Although I do think the Latent bit sounds appropriate for the other personalities.
I do know that some players and GMs get quite upset by the suggestion of breaking this rule.  It's apparently considered right up there with Resurrection and Teleportation as "NO WAY, NO HOW!"
But then, on the other hand, what you do in your own games is just between you, your GM, and those other players involved (with the exclusion of tournaments or Missions, etc).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <08-31-11/1938:59>
vileterror:  i disagree on the one or the other in regards to magic/resonance. the rules and fluff are written in such a way that magic and resonance are different versions of the same thing, opposite faces of the same coin.

a body may have the predisposition to magic/resonance. the psyche would determine the affinity used, if at all.
Title: Quotes?
Post by: VileTerror on <09-01-11/0116:28>
Hmm . . . I had really thought that the authors were trying to sell-home the point that Technomancy would have happened regardless of the Awakening, as the next step in natural human evolution.  I'm not sure /why/ Magic and Resonance would be mututally exclusive in the same body, but I haven't come across anything in the rules or fluff to suggest it's possible.
Of course, I will fully admit that I've still got a LOT of reading ahead of me.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <09-01-11/0646:25>
TBH I have a feeling that it really comes down to be a design choice to seperate the two.
Because if a character can do both, what's to stop him from casting magic in the matrix and cause all sorts of other shenanigans. Sure, you could design rules dealing with problems like that, but why bother? After all, both abilities rely heaviliy on karma, so a character trying to balance the two would have a really hard time in the game.
So I think they ruled it out to save themselves some time better spent on rules that have an actual chance of seeing frequent play :D

When I designed the rules for severe MPD I just thought that it'd be a nice and rarely used gimmick to "combine" the two. If a player really wants to go through the pain of playing them both, why not let him/her do it as long as it doesn't significantly influence the game's balance? There could be good role playing reasons to do it, so there you go ;D

If you want another fluff argument, you could just say that since technomancy is pretty new to the 6th world, the (as of yet unfound IIRC) magic and technomancy genes didn't have much of a chance to merge due to procreation, since the people who have either are unlikely to really spend much time around the other, especially since practitioners of both live in another world, sometimes quite literally (interesting side question: If there is cyber sex, is there some form of astral sex, too? ;D)
Also considering that there is a social stigma attached to both of these abilities, it really doesn't come as a surprise that there have been no official accounts of people expressing both so far.
But even if there were people who have it in their genes to use both abilities, they would be limited to using just one of them, since opening you mind for any one of these will block it for the other.
Characters with severe MPD don't have this problem - they get an entirely new set of problems to worry about instead, so I guess karma really is a b**ch and it all balences out xD
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <09-01-11/1839:46>
"If there is cyber sex, is there some form of astral sex, too?"

yes, i'm sure MIT&M students do it all the time and probably every where.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Tagz on <09-01-11/1909:17>
"If there is cyber sex, is there some form of astral sex, too?"

yes, i'm sure MIT&M students do it all the time and probably every where.

SR4A p52 SEX, last paragraph.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <09-01-11/2330:50>
like i said, EVERYWHERE!!!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <09-02-11/0048:42>
When I ran a Shadowrun demo at a Con, I put an experienced player playing a mage through a Rave while he was out of his "Shoes".  As he knew what happened on the astral plane, he needed no prompting to respond properly:  "I'll be in my bunk."
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <09-13-11/0602:46>
Makes you wonder if there's Omegaware out there somewhere...

It's hilarious that you say that, as I have already written rules for it in my games. Call it the same thing and everything. Mostly as a GM tool, a carrot-on-a-stick urban legend kind of thing. To date, only one character has received it, and he has no idea where the clinic was (Condition was he had to be unconscious to be transported there).
"Omegaware
This grade of Augmentation can only be done in the blackest of secret black clinics, and only after late 2069. This grade is the next step up from Delta, nothing more than a street legend to hear sams tell of it. It has a cost multiplier of 25 and an Essence multiplier of 0.3. It should not be given to players except as a reward for a world-shaking event of epic proportions, and under no circumstances should access to a clinic be given for regular vatjobs. The cyber omegaware has aspects of bioware in it's design, creating a sort of chrome that the body ALMOST recognizes as flesh, and the Bioware of this grade is so compatible the body ALMOST recognizes it as natural. Hence the absurd Essence cost.
Do not allow any character with a Magic Attribute to get this ware. It will break your game."
Quoted directly from my files.
Title: Re: Quotes?
Post by: ARC on <09-20-11/0157:57>
Hmm . . . I had really thought that the authors were trying to sell-home the point that Technomancy would have happened regardless of the Awakening, as the next step in natural human evolution.  I'm not sure /why/ Magic and Resonance would be mututally exclusive in the same body, but I haven't come across anything in the rules or fluff to suggest it's possible.
Of course, I will fully admit that I've still got a LOT of reading ahead of me.

In Emergence on pg. 13 they mention that AIPS shares Pathology with PTSD, ADD, and Gordon's Syndrome.  Now Gordon's Syndrome is a congenital disease that deals with the absorption of Chlorides and Sodium in urine from what I was reading.  It also deals with malformations in joints.  To me it makes sense that to produce an internal antennae the body reabsorbs minerals and they crystalize in the brain produce a Resonating Antennae allowing them to access the Matrix.  Because of the "damage" to the brain it would prevent access to the portions of the brain that allow access to the ebb and Flow of Mana.  Hence a real world explanation using game cannon to explain a game mechanic
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <09-20-11/0212:27>
As for House Rules, the one I find most useful is no limit for Positive Qualities.  The more they spend on Qualities the less they have for Attributes or Skills.  Negative Qualities are still capped at 35.  Too many points into qualities takes away from the rest of the character.  Positive qualities don't seem to me to be too overpowering.  Positive qualities don't tend to be a game breaker.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on <09-20-11/0239:56>
As for House Rules, the one I find most useful is no limit for Positive Qualities.  The more they spend on Qualities the less they have for Attributes or Skills.  Negative Qualities are still capped at 35.  Too many points into qualities takes away from the rest of the character.  Positive qualities don't seem to me to be too overpowering.  Positive qualities don't tend to be a game breaker.
Yes, we do the same.

And has reduced some of the karma cost for being a mage. Magical active characters are a huge karma sink compared to the other classes.

Rasmus
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <09-20-11/0913:58>
As for House Rules, the one I find most useful is no limit for Positive Qualities.  The more they spend on Qualities the less they have for Attributes or Skills.  Negative Qualities are still capped at 35.  Too many points into qualities takes away from the rest of the character.  Positive qualities don't seem to me to be too overpowering.  Positive qualities don't tend to be a game breaker.
Yes, we do the same.

And has reduced some of the karma cost for being a mage. Magical active characters are a huge karma sink compared to the other classes.

Rasmus

I could see the potential to abuse the heck out of both of those...

...but the beauty of houserules are, you use them in a controlled environment.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <09-20-11/1530:04>
As for House Rules, the one I find most useful is no limit for Positive Qualities.  The more they spend on Qualities the less they have for Attributes or Skills.  Negative Qualities are still capped at 35.  Too many points into qualities takes away from the rest of the character.  Positive qualities don't seem to me to be too overpowering.  Positive qualities don't tend to be a game breaker.
Yes, we do the same.

And has reduced some of the karma cost for being a mage. Magical active characters are a huge karma sink compared to the other classes.

Rasmus

I could see the potential to abuse the heck out of both of those...

...but the beauty of houserules are, you use them in a controlled environment.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

The thing is you always need more skills and Attributes more than qualities.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <09-20-11/1716:29>
As for House Rules, the one I find most useful is no limit for Positive Qualities.  The more they spend on Qualities the less they have for Attributes or Skills.  Negative Qualities are still capped at 35.  Too many points into qualities takes away from the rest of the character.  Positive qualities don't seem to me to be too overpowering.  Positive qualities don't tend to be a game breaker.
Yes, we do the same.

And has reduced some of the karma cost for being a mage. Magical active characters are a huge karma sink compared to the other classes.

Rasmus

I could see the potential to abuse the heck out of both of those...

...but the beauty of houserules are, you use them in a controlled environment.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

The thing is you always need more skills and Attributes more than qualities.

If I'm building an honest character, sure. If I were looking to exploit that houserule, I might be willing to have a dumpstat and some skill deficiencies.

Again, the beauty of a houserule is that it implies that the GM is paying enough attention, in the first place, to be tweaking things - so the odds of the GM allowing a broken (or game-breaking) character a place at the table is reduced.

The game has to be written in such a way as to discourage that sort of thing, in general...a GM can examine things on a case-by-case basis.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <09-20-11/1855:13>
I don't know about everyone else, but I examine characters let into my game quite closely before giving the thumbs up. That being said, my particular group tends toward the extreme and the outrageous. Just ask Arc to tell the tale of our FIRST mission-part 1 of it anyway-and his dwarf street sam.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <09-20-11/2021:02>
I don't know about everyone else, but I examine characters let into my game quite closely before giving the thumbs up. That being said, my particular group tends toward the extreme and the outrageous. Just ask Arc to tell the tale of our FIRST mission-part 1 of it anyway-and his dwarf street sam.

Yeah, Spyder is a bit out there, loud mouth and the weight of solid brass to back them up.  I will be making that omlette just to let you know.  Just wait.  It will happen.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <09-21-11/2020:39>
Yeah, the potassium matrix they mentioned somewhere in -Unwired? Emergence?- in the brain probably messes with the control of mana.

This begs the question-can a person be latent one and have the other? A mage who burns out and suffers total magic loss and then becomes a technomancer later? Seeing as Essence Loss isn't the only way to burn out ^_^
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <09-21-11/2108:23>
Huh, well, I guess my rules don't really work under...let's call it FAW (fluff as written). So there you go, a very valid reason not to use these rules or change them to reflect FAW. I think I'd still allow it as a GM though, because I can't really see how it would significantly disturb the games balance as long as you can't use both at the same time.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <09-21-11/2129:46>
I don't know about everyone else, but I examine characters let into my game quite closely before giving the thumbs up. That being said, my particular group tends toward the extreme and the outrageous. Just ask Arc to tell the tale of our FIRST mission-part 1 of it anyway-and his dwarf street sam.

Yeah, Spyder is a bit out there, loud mouth and the weight of solid brass to back them up.  I will be making that omelet just to let you know.  Just wait.  It will happen.

IF you make that omelet, IF you SURVIVE long enough to make that omelet, you will not survive the making of it. I swear this to you. All of dragon-kind will hunt you down and all those related to you, ensuring your complete destruction in this world and the next.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <09-21-11/2208:03>
...please tell me he doesn't already have the eggs. please.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <09-21-11/2216:37>
oh HELL no.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <09-21-11/2237:05>
Thank. Goodness. Because if he did I'm pretty sure we'd all be screwed. And I really mean we as the people using these forums, because I bet our totally awesome and magnificent Great Dragon Overlords know at least one way of escaping the SR Universe and getting over here.
Not that I wouldn't be totally delighted if that happened. I am sure we would all be very happy to welcome our favorite most supreme beings into our world.

...

Please, just eat me quickly?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <09-22-11/0104:19>
...please tell me he doesn't already have the eggs. please.

Spyder is a crazy braggart dwarf.  He still doesn't know who it was that was attacking his team.  But one way or another, that dragon is going to pay.  And I don't accept plastic...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <09-22-11/1443:56>
Yeah, good luck. If you go with the multiple implanted kink bombs idea...you might scratch him with that one.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <09-22-11/1459:04>
This begs the question-can a person be latent one and have the other? A mage who burns out and suffers total magic loss and then becomes a technomancer later? Seeing as Essence Loss isn't the only way to burn out ^_^

conceivable, though i'd say no, it would lead to players getting one and having latent other, eventually they'd argue that it just makes sense to allow both at the same time. so, no.

my reasoning would be that the change a person goes through in becoming a mage or TM "uses up" the option. like having a single spark to light one of 2 candles. most people can't even get one candle to light, the lucky few that light one (Mana or Resonance), have lost the option to light the other. maybe think of mana/resonance as a double ended, (essence) foot long candle. you can burn from one end or the other, assuming you even get it lit.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <09-23-11/0543:39>
Yeah, good luck. If you go with the multiple implanted kink bombs idea...you might scratch him with that one.

Hey I see it this way, even if all i do is give him a horrible case of heartburn, it might make him think twice about eating someone else.  I've done my duty.  Another thing is even if I die, I'll still be the guy who will have axed a dragon.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <09-23-11/0545:38>
This begs the question-can a person be latent one and have the other? A mage who burns out and suffers total magic loss and then becomes a technomancer later? Seeing as Essence Loss isn't the only way to burn out ^_^

conceivable, though i'd say no, it would lead to players getting one and having latent other, eventually they'd argue that it just makes sense to allow both at the same time. so, no.

my reasoning would be that the change a person goes through in becoming a mage or TM "uses up" the option. like having a single spark to light one of 2 candles. most people can't even get one candle to light, the lucky few that light one (Mana or Resonance), have lost the option to light the other. maybe think of mana/resonance as a double ended, (essence) foot long candle. you can burn from one end or the other, assuming you even get it lit.

I still like the idea that the Potasium crystals prevent the application of mana skills, due to brain damage.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <09-23-11/0917:42>
Couldn't you do the same thing with a hammer?  Enough concussions and brain damage...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kontact on <09-23-11/0921:18>
Final thoughts, Charisma is never scary. Shouldn't be used for Intim rolls. Find something else. And for the love of Ghost, roleplay it. One of my favorite scenes was actually an intimidation scene. First thing my char did when he walked in the room was shoot the bastard in the leg. THEN he started with the torture... And it still took five rolls to finally get the average shmoe to break down... Cause my ghoul had crap Charisma!!!!

Making someone believe that you'll kill them is easy.

Making them believe that you won't kill them if they help you, is not as easy.

If you don't think that charisma is scary, then you've never met a psychopath.  At least, not that you know...




This begs the question-can a person be latent one and have the other? A mage who burns out and suffers total magic loss and then becomes a technomancer later? Seeing as Essence Loss isn't the only way to burn out ^_^

conceivable, though i'd say no, it would lead to players getting one and having latent other, eventually they'd argue that it just makes sense to allow both at the same time. so, no.
Remember that a character who has burned out still has a magic attribute, even if that attribute is zero.
and...

SR4a P82
Quote
MagIc/resonance
In order to possess either Magic or Resonance , a character has to first
purchase either the Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Technomancer
qualities (see Quality Descriptions, p. 90). Purchasing Adept, Magician,
or Mystic Adept gives the character a Magic attribute of 1. Purchasing
the Technomancer quality gives the character a Resonance attribute of
1. A character can possess either Magic or Resonance—never both.

Also Unwired p. 37
Quote
Latent Technomancer
Cost: 5 BP
A character with this quality starts the game as a normal,
mundane character. When she starts the game, this character has
no Resonance attribute or related skills, and may not spend BP on
them. This quality may not be taken with any quality that confers
a Magic or Resonance attribute.



BTW I know it's kind of crap already, but the house rules sticky is not the best place for discussions.
This is supposed to be a thread where people come in with half baked ideas that have had no play testing, and everyone ignores them or makes them feel bad.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <09-23-11/0956:03>
Yeah, the mostly ignoring part was kinda annoying for me, too ;D I'm not feeling too bad about it though, I'll just take it that the House Rules I created are perfect and beautiful :P
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <09-23-11/1423:08>
Couldn't you do the same thing with a hammer?  Enough concussions and brain damage...

Yep :D. Just apply the rules for Magic Loss!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <09-23-11/1644:47>
Either that, or you have a brain damaged Magician with power beyond his ability to understand or react properly with.

I can just see him fireballing the Ice Cream Man because he wouldn't stop.  ;D
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <09-23-11/2154:19>
Yeah... Brain damage may lower the mental attributes. Which would affect drain-linked attributes, but may not affect their magical prowess. Oh gods... That actually just gave me a horrible idea for a run... Track down someone using magic seemingly at random, and with no cause, but is doing serious damage to the world around them, physical and astral. Find out it's someone with brain damage, very little control over their emotions, and even less control over their magic. And what would the team do about him? Guy's effectively a three year old with super-powers.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <09-23-11/2159:49>
Come on, they're Shadowrunners, they'll shoot him in the face and collect on their pay.  :P

'Course, I've been proven wrong before...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: k_night on <09-24-11/0507:25>
we would use him as the distraction on our next run :)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <09-24-11/0531:45>
Our group would probably recruit him.  then leave him for the wolves.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kontact on <09-24-11/0826:12>
Yeah, the mostly ignoring part was kinda annoying for me, too ;D I'm not feeling too bad about it though, I'll just take it that the House Rules I created are perfect and beautiful :P

All the house rules I come up with on a whim have been playtested... in my heart.  :-[
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <09-24-11/1053:46>
I'm just going to go ahead and ask my GM whether or not my next Character may have severe MPD. Knowing him it probably won't be a problem and then we can playtest the rules to death ;D I really hope they hold up to my expectations, because I really like the character I had in mind when creating them :)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <09-24-11/2311:59>
Final thoughts, Charisma is never scary. Shouldn't be used for Intim rolls. Find something else. And for the love of Ghost, roleplay it. One of my favorite scenes was actually an intimidation scene. First thing my char did when he walked in the room was shoot the bastard in the leg. THEN he started with the torture... And it still took five rolls to finally get the average shmoe to break down... Cause my ghoul had crap Charisma!!!!

Making someone believe that you'll kill them is easy.

Making them believe that you won't kill them if they help you, is not as easy.

If you don't think that charisma is scary, then you've never met a psychopath.  At least, not that you know...




This begs the question-can a person be latent one and have the other? A mage who burns out and suffers total magic loss and then becomes a technomancer later? Seeing as Essence Loss isn't the only way to burn out ^_^

conceivable, though i'd say no, it would lead to players getting one and having latent other, eventually they'd argue that it just makes sense to allow both at the same time. so, no.
Remember that a character who has burned out still has a magic attribute, even if that attribute is zero.
and...

SR4a P82
Quote
MagIc/resonance
In order to possess either Magic or Resonance , a character has to first
purchase either the Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Technomancer
qualities (see Quality Descriptions, p. 90). Purchasing Adept, Magician,
or Mystic Adept gives the character a Magic attribute of 1. Purchasing
the Technomancer quality gives the character a Resonance attribute of
1. A character can possess either Magic or Resonancenever both.

Also Unwired p. 37
Quote
Latent Technomancer
Cost: 5 BP
A character with this quality starts the game as a normal,
mundane character. When she starts the game, this character has
no Resonance attribute or related skills, and may not spend BP on
them. This quality may not be taken with any quality that confers
a Magic or Resonance attribute.



BTW I know it's kind of crap already, but the house rules sticky is not the best place for discussions.
This is supposed to be a thread where people come in with half baked ideas that have had no play testing, and everyone ignores them or makes them feel bad.

In other words, when a Magician or Adept burns out, their magic becomes 0.  There is a big difference of a stat of - and a stat of 0.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: kirk on <09-25-11/1422:07>
I've been contemplating a house rule I'd like to share. Note this is still vague handwave and further I'm not sure it's a "good" rule. And yet...

Matrix Hardware degradation. This year's cutting edge is next year's middle of the pack, and let's not even think about running today's programs on computers of a decade ago. The degrading programs aren't so much from them degrading as hardware and operating systems and such improving. So:

Matrix Attributes of commlinks, nexus, and such degrade at a rate of 1 level every (10-current R) months. A rating 6 system will become a rating 5 system in 4 months, and 5 months later will become a rating 4 system.

Thoughts? Improvements? Objections?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Deliverator on <09-25-11/1616:43>
I'd say lifestyle would account for maintaining the quality of your electronic hardware.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <09-25-11/1705:18>
Reminds me of the SOTA tech rules from third editiion.

I always just add a new Rating at a ridiculous cost and availability to the lists of gear, and don't tell the players that unless they make the effort to keep their character up to date on recent advancements or watch the news religiously. Of course, i don't mind ridiculous dice pools when the opponent gets them too :D
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <09-26-11/0220:30>
I could see it happening with the hardware, but programs and OSs don't go obsolete quite that fast. Hardware and Software have very different improvements rates. I think its simpler over all though to either A) add a new rating every X amount of time or B) reduce ratings across the board at set times.

A is by far the easier and tends to not make players irritated (most players hate loosing rating points).

B really represents more of a improvements come out at X time rather than constant minor upgrades. When you get down to it, most hardware you see is released in generations. Example, right now everyone is waiting on the AMD Bulldozer to come out, that would be a case for the B situation to occur.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <09-26-11/0945:26>
Alan Bradley:  "Given the prices we charge to students and schools, what sort of improvements have been made in Flynn...  I mean, um, ENCOM OS-12?"
Richard Mackey:  "This year we put a '12' on the box." - TRON:  Legacy
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: bigity on <09-26-11/1218:40>
Best part of that movie, sadly.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <09-26-11/2337:16>
Alan Bradley:  "Given the prices we charge to students and schools, what sort of improvements have been made in Flynn...  I mean, um, ENCOM OS-12?"
Richard Mackey:  "This year we put a '12' on the box." - TRON:  Legacy

question is: is it apple or M$ they are mocking?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <09-26-11/2352:20>
Alan Bradley:  "Given the prices we charge to students and schools, what sort of improvements have been made in Flynn...  I mean, um, ENCOM OS-12?"
Richard Mackey:  "This year we put a '12' on the box." - TRON:  Legacy
question is: is it apple or M$ they are mocking?
Yes.

From what I saw, if I saw right, it's actually Linux they're using, too.  Which makes it a triple poke.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: usefulidiot on <09-28-11/1854:06>
Our group has been kicking around the idea of making the multi-tasking adept power useful. Thoughts for it are to let it be used during combat, such as reloading firearms. Also another thought for it was if a character with it was weilding 2 guns with smartlinks and both guns tartgets were within the characters same line of sight, within reason at GM discresion, then he could recieve targeting data from both guns at the same time. So the charcter would recieve the smartlink bonus on both guns. Any thoughts on this? Would it be over powering or just making a power useful for other characters like gun bunnies?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <09-29-11/0319:10>
Doesn't sound too bad imo, flavor and balance wise. Houseruling it like that would actually maybe make me consider taking this power, which imho isn't worth it's PP using RAW.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kontact on <09-29-11/2310:54>
Our group has been kicking around the idea of making the multi-tasking adept power useful. Thoughts for it are to let it be used during combat, such as reloading firearms. Also another thought for it was if a character with it was weilding 2 guns with smartlinks and both guns tartgets were within the characters same line of sight, within reason at GM discresion, then he could recieve targeting data from both guns at the same time. So the charcter would recieve the smartlink bonus on both guns. Any thoughts on this? Would it be over powering or just making a power useful for other characters like gun bunnies?

It's mostly useful in the matrix where you have to take observe in detail actions to discern what icons are.  Also there's the fluff part about being very hard to distract.  That would seem like something that could be fit into the game better with a mechanic.   Perhaps something similar to the reality amplifier, Focus, from Unwired.

Quote
Focus
Focus amplifiers are the opposite of Red Alert amps. Focus
activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which causes the
fight-or-flight response to end and returns the body to a calm state.
A Focus amp can be activated to eliminate dice penalties due to
distracting or stressful situations. With a Focus amp running, a
hacker can calmly write code while taking heavy fire. A Focus amp
cannot be running at the same time as a Red Alert amp, even if the
user has more than one datajack.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <09-30-11/1846:15>
Another one that my group has is that if you have a second smartlink enhancement, you can benefit with a +1 dice pool modifier when dual wielding firearms that have a smartgun system.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-30-11/2111:11>
In previous editions, the encephalon enhancement granted (almost but not quite) true multi-tasking for a metahuman.  I ruled that one of those, along with separate smartlink systems for each hand/weapon, would be required to get the most out of the "John Woo" style of gunplay.

Extra eyes helped, too, as they could be used to target something that the main set were facing away from.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Phylos Fett on <09-30-11/2117:00>
Extra eyes helped, too, as they could be used to target something that the main set were facing away from.

Did you have many characters that were sporting extra eyes?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Zilfer on <10-05-11/1708:57>
Extra eyes helped, too, as they could be used to target something that the main set were facing away from.

Did you have many characters that were sporting extra eyes?

Sounds bad ass though i'm not getting the picture of how AR would look with a camera on your back. :D He's got eyes in the back of his head! I swear!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <10-05-11/1755:13>
Why not?  Spies have been using optical tricks to do the same thing for many, many years.  Mirrored Windows are wonderful things.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Zilfer on <10-05-11/1839:30>
Why not?  Spies have been using optical tricks to do the same thing for many, many years.  Mirrored Windows are wonderful things.

In sun glasses? yes it's a little disorienting tho... xD
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Ryo on <10-20-11/1603:36>
Here's a little houserule I've been kicking around for a bit. Modifying the penalty on 'Called shot to avoid armor' from being equal to target's armor to being half your dice pool.

As it stands, there is never a situation where a called shot to avoid armor is a good idea. The only time you would want to choose it over adding +4 DV is against enemies with very high armor, but in those cases, you're most likely taking your entire dice pool as a negative modifier. Maybe if you're really tricked out to the nines, you'll have 4 of 5 dice left after a -16 penalty, but that's about it.

Halving your dice pool gives a nice kick to the pants for your shooter, while still making the option viable in those situations where they really need to bypass armor, like against that cyberzombie you just sicked on them.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Zilfer on <10-20-11/1615:02>
Here's a little houserule I've been kicking around for a bit. Modifying the penalty on 'Called shot to avoid armor' from being equal to target's armor to being half your dice pool.

As it stands, there is never a situation where a called shot to avoid armor is a good idea. The only time you would want to choose it over adding +4 DV is against enemies with very high armor, but in those cases, you're most likely taking your entire dice pool as a negative modifier. Maybe if you're really tricked out to the nines, you'll have 4 of 5 dice left after a -16 penalty, but that's about it.

Halving your dice pool gives a nice kick to the pants for your shooter, while still making the option viable in those situations where they really need to bypass armor, like against that cyberzombie you just sicked on them.

>.> Cyberzombie!

*fires his Slivergun with 8DV + called shot 4DV + Burst Fire 2DV = 14DV +5AP and then to top if off I'll edge the dice pool. Come on 23 dice don't fail me now because i took 4 of you out.... xD Hopefully the things Impact is also lower than it's insane balistic... xD)*

Anyways that's an interesting way of doing it, though I think it's rather unfair to those who have large amount of dice. Say you wanted to get around 6 armor and now all of a sudden if you have 20 base dice like my first character you'd be taking out 10 dice instead of 6. >.> Anyways just my thought.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <10-22-11/2222:47>
Our fix to the issue of called shots was just to allow multiple affects with the same called shot. We also allow partial armor negating shots (not sure if you can do that by RAW or not). I like the fact that its hard to call shots to negate armor. If I were going to completely revamp any part of the called shot, I'd increase the penalty for bonus DV  to a -2 or -3 per +1 rather than making the armor negating easier.

I think where the half your dice pool would really collapse is with NPCs.

If your average runner is anything like mine, they'll have Body*2+3 Ballistic Armor and Body*2 + 1 Impact Armor (more if you allow softweave in). With an average rating of 3, that is 9 B and 7 I. A typical corp sec can go from 6 dice to 3 (from 2 avg hits to one) and negate the runner's soak roll by 3 successes average (ends up being the exact same as if they had just called a shot for +3 DV). No big deal here.

Against a combat oriented character (lets say a high body troll Bod of 8) with 19 points of Ballistic and 17 points of Impact, the same Sec. Guard just cut the soak roll down from 9 successes to 2.6 successes average. That's considerably more than he'd get from taking a -4 for +4 DV. This is just a security guard, they shouldn't even have the skills to place well aimed shots into soft spots of an full SWAT Armored and Shielded opponent.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <11-03-11/0725:41>
Our fix to the issue of called shots was just to allow multiple affects with the same called shot. We also allow partial armor negating shots (not sure if you can do that by RAW or not). I like the fact that its hard to call shots to negate armor. If I were going to completely revamp any part of the called shot, I'd increase the penalty for bonus DV  to a -2 or -3 per +1 rather than making the armor negating easier.

I think where the half your dice pool would really collapse is with NPCs.

If your average runner is anything like mine, they'll have Body*2+3 Ballistic Armor and Body*2 + 1 Impact Armor (more if you allow softweave in). With an average rating of 3, that is 9 B and 7 I. A typical corp sec can go from 6 dice to 3 (from 2 avg hits to one) and negate the runner's soak roll by 3 successes average (ends up being the exact same as if they had just called a shot for +3 DV). No big deal here.

Against a combat oriented character (lets say a high body troll Bod of 8) with 19 points of Ballistic and 17 points of Impact, the same Sec. Guard just cut the soak roll down from 9 successes to 2.6 successes average. That's considerably more than he'd get from taking a -4 for +4 DV. This is just a security guard, they shouldn't even have the skills to place well aimed shots into soft spots of an full SWAT Armored and Shielded opponent.

First off, let me just say that that suggested ruling is pretty sadistic. Take that as you will.

Secondly, my group must all run rather crunchy characters, because I'm looking at 19 Ballistic and thinking that's a little low for a Troll tank. Of course, it's even *MORE* ridiculous with a Body 10 Changeling Troll with a loaded out with extra Dermal Deposits, a Dermal Sheath, Formfit, SWAT gear, PPP (-Helmet, of course) and a Ballistic Shield (Grand total 33-B / 28-I), so your point is still quite valid.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <11-28-11/1829:49>
Has anyone out there house rules Uncouth or the way social skills are resisted to make the big bad tough Uncouth troll untrained in Intimidation and 44 armor not easily intimidated by a trained dwarf with a pea shooter? It bugs me.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Zilfer on <11-28-11/1844:14>
Has anyone out there house rules Uncouth or the way social skills are resisted to make the big bad tough Uncouth troll untrained in Intimidation and 44 armor not easily intimidated by a trained dwarf with a pea shooter? It bugs me.

I know the DM that introduced me had a problem with that and he house ruled it to be that you can use Charisma or Strength in intimidation.

I can see it both ways, a big guy can scare you easily, or someone who seems to be out of their freakin mind can. On the same time, a big "dumb" troll isn't going to scare me too much. You could also add on some moddifiers for how they are threatening someone. I mean someone pointing a panther at me i'm going to be obliged to at least listen.... xD
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <11-28-11/1903:02>
Not really, but wouldn't it be easier to make a new quality for the rude and irritable troll than to try and force it into Uncouth which isn't designed for it?

Uncouth people have no idea how to act in social situations. If you play an uncouth character and that dwarf is trying to scare you, guess what, you get scared. You piss your pant and cry like a baby, because you don't know how not to. You have no ability to cope with it. Its a 20BP flaw for a reason.

If you want to make your troll rude, obnoxious, and just generally a pain in the ass to be around, give him these:
Poor Self Control: What a Bastard (5 BP)
Characters with this flaw are generally  considered to be self important and have little care for others thoughts and opinions. While they think this makes them stronger, it also hampers their ability to successfully manipulate others. Character's with this flaw cannot purchase the Influence skill group and must pay double for every rank in Negotiation or Con. Characters without ranks in these skills are considered unaware in them. The GM may require these character's to make rolls for things that normally would not require a roll.
Sample Quote: Tell us where the stuff's at, so I can shoot ya.

Poor Self Control: Rude and Obnoxious (5 BP)
Characters with this flaw are unable to blend in with society. They either constantly feel the need to clumsily be the center of attention, or they just don't care enough to conform to polite standards. Character's with this flaw cannot purchase the Influence skill group, and must pay double for every rank in Etiquette. Characters with no rank in this skill are treated as unaware in it. The GM may require the character to make roll for things that normally would not require a roll.
Sample Quote: Little Kaylee here just wishes you was a gynecologist.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Zilfer on <11-28-11/1919:58>
Well in my sistuation there wasn't an uncouth, but now i read back to what i was answering i see where your post came from. XD

It's probably best that i don't understand what exactly is meant with that second example qoute.... <.<
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <11-28-11/1923:33>
Its a bit from Firefly. One of the characters is a rude bastard about 90% of the time. It was considered his polite dinner conversation toward the guy that Kaylee fancied if that gets it across a bit better.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Zilfer on <11-28-11/1924:28>
Its a bit from Firefly. One of the characters is a rude bastard about 90% of the time. It was considered his polite dinner conversation toward the guy that Kaylee fancied if that gets it across a bit better.

I see, it makes a lot more sense now. Quite a thing to say at the dinner table...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <12-11-11/0653:34>
Its a bit from Firefly. One of the characters is a rude bastard about 90% of the time. It was considered his polite dinner conversation toward the guy that Kaylee fancied if that gets it across a bit better.

I see, it makes a lot more sense now. Quite a thing to say at the dinner table...

Zane is such an awesome Character.  Though my favorite line in the series is from Zoe.  "Excuse me Captain, you're going to need to take the wheel.  I need this man to rip my clothes off"  She grabs Wash and his response is "Work Work Work
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <12-11-11/0834:12>
Its Jayne, not Zane.

And my favorite line from the movie would have to be this:

Hoban 'Wash' Washburn: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Define "interesting".
Hoban 'Wash' Washburn: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <12-11-11/0914:07>
If only the RPG was decent.  :(

Oh well, I got Airship Pirates now.  Very similar feeling...  Somehow.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The Big Peat on <12-11-11/1951:33>
Has anyone out there house rules Uncouth or the way social skills are resisted to make the big bad tough Uncouth troll untrained in Intimidation and 44 armor not easily intimidated by a trained dwarf with a pea shooter? It bugs me.

That sounds like -5 to the dwarf's pool for "Subject is physically imposing (3) plus subject is wielding an obvious weapon" with a +2 to the Troll for "Subject doesn't think character 'would try something so stupid'". That's a +7 swing on the dice and if that isn't enough, the Dwarf is just that badass and the Troll just that easily flummoxed and generally poor at reading people. I think it works fine. And, of course, there is always the wonderfully cheap 'Guts' for those who think their characters don't scare as easily as indicated.

However, something I would consider, is allowing characters to roll Willpower x 2 for resisting Intimidate, to represent strong willed characters who don't go around scaring people themselves but don't scary easy either. In general, Willpower x 2 is a good patch for if you don't like "You need these social skills to avoid getting completely owned by with them, no matter how mule stubborn you are". I would probably be less generous with modifiers if using that.

It does also though have the handy side effect of making even ranks in Willpower a bit more worthwhile.

p.s. Jayne is a hero and I wish I was Kaylee's gynecologist. That is all.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <12-12-11/0440:11>
The Uncouth Troll automatically fails social skill tests he isn't trained in. Regardless of dice. Intimidate is resisted with Intimidation and Willpower, which is a skill test, so the pea shooter dwarf may be at minuses but if he gets 1 hit he wins.

Uncouth does not make sense to me. It sounds like antisocial, but it is executed as weak and easily fooled.

Sigh. Oh well.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <12-12-11/0449:07>
The Uncouth Troll automatically fails social skill tests he isn't trained in. Regardless of dice. Intimidate is resisted with Intimidation and Willpower, which is a skill test, so the pea shooter dwarf may be at minuses but if he gets 1 hit he wins.

Uncouth does not make sense to me. It sounds like antisocial, but it is executed as weak and easily fooled.

Sigh. Oh well.

Just hit me... just have the Troll buy at least one level of Intimidate. Problem solved. And, really, a huge Uncouth troll with no knowledge of Etiquette or Con would probably start smacking people to get his way sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The Big Peat on <12-12-11/1103:30>
Ahh, should have read the quality description closer.

I direct you to Crash's suggestions back over the page.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-12-11/1127:46>
I had a character in another game system that wasn't terribly good at intimidation and he knew it.  So he would apologize profusely and explain that he has to cut off fingers and such to prove he isn't bluffing.  He does this first before he even starts to question them. 

Anyway, that is how you play an uncouth troll.  Start by smashing some fingers and have your face pull you off of them, explaining that you're not supposed to hurt them until AFTER they refuse to answer.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Carmody on <12-12-11/1656:48>
Well, if you smash them unconscious before asking questions that can be considered a failure on your intimidation test  ;)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <12-12-11/1848:34>
Depends...  They can't resist the Magicians mind reading spells as well with a concussion.  :P
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Carmody on <12-13-11/0359:28>
Depends...  They can't resist the Magicians mind reading spells as well with a concussion.  :P
But still, this is no intimidation.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <12-13-11/1125:34>
Depends...  They can't resist the Magicians mind reading spells as well with a concussion.  :P
But still, this is no intimidation.
I find concussions intimidating.  Although, that might be because I somehow never had one.

Of course, if you're watching your good chummer get the concussion, it might be intimidation to the rest of the group.  ;)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The Big Peat on <12-13-11/1226:18>
Depends...  They can't resist the Magicians mind reading spells as well with a concussion.  :P
But still, this is no intimidation.
I find concussions intimidating.  Although, that might be because I somehow never had one.

Of course, if you're watching your good chummer get the concussion, it might be intimidation to the rest of the group.  ;)

I've had a few, I don't find them particularly intimidating... and I think if someone was interrogating me while I had one, I would genuinely be incredibly unhelpful as remembering what they want to know would not be easy if actually possible. In fact, I'd possibly rule that it hampers the Mage, as I can't imagine concussed minds are easily read.

When I say particularly intimidating, I mean no more intimidating than any other form of physical damage. The circumstances in which I took them were not ones I found intimidating. I imagine having an 8 ft Troll pound on me with no effective way of fighting back would be more intimidating. But that's the Troll, not the concussion.

I think you're right that asking the man's friends after the short term memory loss might be an idea though.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <12-13-11/1711:39>
"Never start with the head, it makes the person all groggy."  :P
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Carmody on <12-14-11/0405:08>
Of course, if you're watching your good chummer get the concussion, it might be intimidation to the rest of the group.  ;)

That is intimidating for sure  ;D
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on <12-14-11/0822:20>
"Never start with the head, it makes the person all groggy."  :P

That really depend on which head you start with.
I'm not sure cattle prod to the groin makes you groggy...

Rasmus
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <12-18-11/0608:31>
Its Jayne, not Zane.

And my favorite line from the movie would have to be this:

Hoban 'Wash' Washburn: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Define "interesting".
Hoban 'Wash' Washburn: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

Holy crap, I didn't even catch my Typo.  I mixed up two series horribly bad.  Firefly and Incarnations of Imortality.  I feel like a complete failure.  I'm one Hell of a Browncoat as well.  Adam Baldwin is going to shoot me with Vera
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <12-18-11/1056:50>
Holy crap, I didn't even catch my Typo.  I mixed up two series horribly bad.  Firefly and Incarnations of Imortality.  I feel like a complete failure.  I'm one Hell of a Browncoat as well.  Adam Baldwin is going to shoot me with Vera
Good thing that Vera is a non-functional prop then.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <12-18-11/2049:04>
I just see an uncouth person as that guy. You know that guy. That guy from school that was twice the size of the school bully, but always coughed up his lunch money. That guy that would stutter every time he tried to lie. That guy that wound up sitting in the corner not talking to anyone because he literally could not hold a conversation. I really don't see a problem with uncouth at all.

Now, if you're wanting a fix for the social skills (ie being opposed by Stat+Skill), that's one that I've always found odd. My fix for it is pretty simple. You may resist with the appropriate Stat+Skill, representing your knowledge of the subject and realizing you're being manipulated, or you can resist with the following base resistances:
Skill Used     Resistance
Con/Etiquette     Judge Intentions
Intimidate/Leadership/Negotiation     Composure

This gives the Att+Att stats a bit more use and lets them do what I feel they should have been doing all along (Composure used to swallow your fear unless it's against another person?). As a side note, I put negotiation into composure because I personally feel that willpower should be more of a factor in negotiation that it is. After all, the intention of the other person is almost always to make/spend the most/least money possible. If that doesn't fit to your liking just toss Negotiation under the Judge Intentions resistance.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <12-19-11/1137:50>
Too slide away from the subject of Uncouth, here's a HR I'm implementing in my campaign: Simply put, you will be allowed to buy hits on "reactive" tests in most situations. This is to represent a few things things:

Firstly, for damage resistance tests, this is because, after a certain level of armoring, some attacks just aren't going to be a viable threat. A Troll with a Body of 9 and enough armor that a tank would need multiple net hits to do Physical damage isn't going to even notice a little .22 snub-nose Holdout.

Secondly, for Drain, it represents the fact that the body adapts and adjusts to the use of magic, and after a certain level the weaker power flows just become so easy to handle that they stop being a strain. There are, I think, some humorous similarities to a champion strong-man having to open a jar of pickles... including glitching the spell-casting test.

Third, for matrix stuff... well, I don't really know, as I haven't focused on the Matrix too much, but I'd imagine a sufficiently robust system would simply laugh at weaker attempts to bring it down, or something like that.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: OpsCon on <12-20-11/1212:37>
Made an account just to say that I have yet to get to play or run my copy of SR4A, but the new Matrix rules work pretty much the way that I had to houserule it back in 2nd edition to make it work.

If I do run it soon (and I'm looking at the 6th World Almanac on Amazon and thinking this would be easier to get a group together for than Battletech: A Time of War) I am thinking that to keep the number of dice needed down, letting you turn dice into auto successes (on a 3::1 ratio) once you get pools to 13+ dice. That way you should not need more than a standard 12-die set of Chessex Six-siders.  So, for example, a guy with 12 dice rolls them all, but a guy with 13 can turn in 3 for an auto success and then roll the other 10, or the really scary guy with 17 dice can roll 11 dice with 2 auto-successes, and so on.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-20-11/1317:20>
Made an account just to say that I have yet to get to play or run my copy of SR4A, but the new Matrix rules work pretty much the way that I had to houserule it back in 2nd edition to make it work.

If I do run it soon (and I'm looking at the 6th World Almanac on Amazon and thinking this would be easier to get a group together for than Battletech: A Time of War) I am thinking that to keep the number of dice needed down, letting you turn dice into auto successes (on a 3::1 ratio) once you get pools to 13+ dice. That way you should not need more than a standard 12-die set of Chessex Six-siders.  So, for example, a guy with 12 dice rolls them all, but a guy with 13 can turn in 3 for an auto success and then roll the other 10, or the really scary guy with 17 dice can roll 11 dice with 2 auto-successes, and so on.

It already is possible to trade dice in for hits in some situations (can't remember what situations off the top of my head), and it conversion is 4 dice for 1 hit.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <12-20-11/1749:52>
Made an account just to say that I have yet to get to play or run my copy of SR4A, but the new Matrix rules work pretty much the way that I had to houserule it back in 2nd edition to make it work.

If I do run it soon (and I'm looking at the 6th World Almanac on Amazon and thinking this would be easier to get a group together for than Battletech: A Time of War) I am thinking that to keep the number of dice needed down, letting you turn dice into auto successes (on a 3::1 ratio) once you get pools to 13+ dice. That way you should not need more than a standard 12-die set of Chessex Six-siders.  So, for example, a guy with 12 dice rolls them all, but a guy with 13 can turn in 3 for an auto success and then roll the other 10, or the really scary guy with 17 dice can roll 11 dice with 2 auto-successes, and so on.

It already is possible to trade dice in for hits in some situations (can't remember what situations off the top of my head), and it conversion is 4 dice for 1 hit.

If I recall correctly, it's basically like taking 10 in AD&D. You can do it whenever the stakes are low and there's no real negative consequences to half-assing it.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <12-20-11/1804:15>
Pretty much, although there is support by RAW for using it on Vehicle resistance tests for large armored vehicles as well.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <12-20-11/1813:10>
Oh! I forget what book it was in, but there's also rules for abdolutely massive dice pools, with more randomness then buying hits: Take 1d6 for every 10 dice in the net pool. Roll them. Add the results to get total hits.

No specific rules for glitching were given, but it's safe to say you can't crit.glitch, given the minimum of 3-4 (depending on where GM sets the threshold) hits minimum.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <12-20-11/1817:34>
It's out of War! I believe.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <12-26-11/2255:18>
Hey All,

New to the forum, but I saw this thread and wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

I wanted to comment on the big troll with low Charisma not being able to use Intimidate effectively.  I've always looked at it this way:  If the Troll has a low Charisma, he might think he is saying "Listen you little puke, if you don't tell me what I want to hear, I'm going to rip off your head and give you an enima with it.", but what the intended target is hearing is "he he, can you tell me what I want to hear?  No, oh that's too bad, I really wanted to hurt you, but since you don't know what I want to know, I guess that's ok."

You have to remember that Intimidating isn't just convincing the target to give up the information, but also a matter of tricking the target into admitting he knows the information that you want to know.  Just watch any television show where the police are intimitading a perp.  Sure they can't intimidate with physical, but they still have the weight of the law behind them, which is intimidating in and of itself.  However, they still have to get the perp to own up to the fact that he knows anything at all.  A low Charisma Troll would easily believe that the target doesn't actually know the information.

If anyone remembers the show Night Court, Bull Shanon was the perfect example of low Charisma but intimidating size.  He could be intimidating to the average Joe (because of the size), but certainly not towards someone more charismatic. He would easily be fooled by his intimidatee.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <12-26-11/2319:19>
I give a bonus to looking mean to Intimidation, as long as all they do is loom.  Open the mouth, forget it.

It's not just size, either, however.  My stepfather was 5'5", 5'6" tops.  He loomed over anyone when he wanted to, no matter their height.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <12-27-11/0018:46>
It's not just size, either, however.  My stepfather was 5'5", 5'6" tops.  He loomed over anyone when he wanted to, no matter their height.

Isn't that the truth.  My former mother-in-law wasn't any taller than 5'  And she was the last person I would ever want to piss off.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <12-27-11/1134:02>
Height, however, does help.  My Father is over six feet (Well, was), and loomed quite well.

Nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, but actually get him to the point of anger, and, well, you knew better than to cross him.

He's the cyborg of the family, too!  ;D
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <12-27-11/1445:13>
Several optionals of mine:

Charging:  because a persons size would determine how more effective a charge would be, I changed the attack roll dice pool modifier from +2 to -2 and dictated that the attacker adds Body/2 to the damage being done.  Certainly a troll charging a character would be more devastating than an average joe.

Counterattacking: I've implimented a fourth option to defending against a melee.  The ever loving counter attack which existed in SR up until the 4th edition.  You have to use a melee skill to defend with (not dodge), and you cannot counterattack while acting in full defence.  If the defender gets net hits over the attacker, he does damage back at the attacker.  This speeds up combat, but makes it a little more lethal.

Gear Concealability: instead of giving the perceiver a modifier to his perception test when looking for a target's hidden gun (this pretty much tells a player that an NPC is packing) I reverse the modifiers on he table and apply them to the palming test.

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-27-11/1452:54>
Several optionals of mine:

Charging:  because a persons size would determine how more effective a charge would be, I changed the attack roll dice pool modifier from +2 to -2 and dictated that the attacker adds Body/2 to the damage being done.  Certainly a troll charging a character would be more devastating than an average joe.

Counterattacking: I've implimented a fourth option to defending against a melee.  The ever loving counter attack which existed in SR up until the 4th edition.  You have to use a melee skill to defend with (not dodge), and you cannot counterattack while acting in full defence.  If the defender gets net hits over the attacker, he does damage back at the attacker.  This speeds up combat, but makes it a little more lethal.

Gear Concealability: instead of giving the perceiver a modifier to his perception test when looking for a target's hidden gun (this pretty much tells a player that an NPC is packing) I reverse the modifiers on he table and apply them to the palming test.

The Charging alteration here might work for your table, but it adds complexity to the system for little or no decent benefit--in my opinion.

The Counterattacking could be interesting, but it could very well make the Counter Strike power of the Adept almost pointless by basically giving the ability to everyone.

The Gear Concealability could work all right. I'd have to test that one before knowing for sure.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <12-27-11/1502:25>

The Charging alteration here might work for your table, but it adds complexity to the system for little or no decent benefit--in my opinion.

The Counterattacking could be interesting, but it could very well make the Counter Strike power of the Adept almost pointless by basically giving the ability to everyone.

The Gear Concealability could work all right. I'd have to test that one before knowing for sure.

Charging: only comlex if someone doesn't know how to divide.

Counterattacking:  True, it would make that Physad ability redundant, but I'm ok with that.

Concealability: If you use it, let me know how it works out.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-27-11/1512:52>
Charging: only comlex if someone doesn't know how to divide.

It's still more complex than just +2 to the attacker's dice pool, but that's why I added the caveat of it perhaps working at your table.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <12-27-11/1522:21>
Charging: only comlex if someone doesn't know how to divide.

It's still more complex than just +2 to the attacker's dice pool, but that's why I added the caveat of it perhaps working at your table.

True, two modifiers are technically more complex than one, which would make it twice as complex.  But in my mind, something being simple for the sake of simplicity without reason is more complicated.  I guess, it's just the way my brain works.   :-\
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <12-27-11/2113:03>
The counter-attacking also takes away from the positive quality that can be taken for a martial arts specialist.  Adepts aren't the only ones capable of it, but it remains special.  Giving it to everyone removes that quality and makes those that focus on their CQB abilities less special.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <12-27-11/2120:46>
The counter-attacking also takes away from the positive quality that can be taken for a martial arts specialist.  Adepts aren't the only ones capable of it, but it remains special.  Giving it to everyone removes that quality and makes those that focus on their CQB abilities less special.

Since I don't bother with martial arts either, I have no problem with that.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <12-27-11/2246:01>
So because you don't use it, to hell with everyone that does?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <12-27-11/2248:16>
So because you don't use it, to hell with everyone that does?

I didn't say that, and it is rude and arrogant of you to assume as much.  However, to clarrify for you:  when I run my campaigns, I don't use martial arts options (bogs down the game too much).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <12-27-11/2348:47>
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the idea of having contacts costing connection x loyalty BP.  I just wanted to say that I think this is a fantastic idea.  In fact, I had already implemented it in my game (glad to see I'm not the only one thinking along these lines).  As well, I agree with the free contact BPs idea.  I ended up giving them Charisma x Etiquette Contact BPs.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <12-28-11/0910:11>
So because you don't use it, to hell with everyone that does?
Easy Mirikon, this thread is meant to discuss what people do in their own games. Specificially, it is meant to be rules that most might not agree with.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <12-28-11/1513:16>
Hence, the title "House Rules."
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <12-28-11/1747:38>
Anyone tried the "Body only for healing" optional rule (rather than Body x 2)?

Did you find this better or worse?  Grittier or not?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <12-28-11/2050:15>
Oddly, in my games, healing typically occurs offscreen.  During a run its all "ZOMGBULLETSPIRITWTFKILLIT" and then we get a break to patch up for the next time.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <01-01-12/1702:13>
I give a bonus to looking mean to Intimidation, as long as all they do is loom.  Open the mouth, forget it.

It's not just size, either, however.  My stepfather was 5'5", 5'6" tops.  He loomed over anyone when he wanted to, no matter their height.
Here's a good example of how reputation and just sheer badassery can make all the difference. (http://youtu.be/I0Mqb-5BYpg)  My Stepfather had a look like that when he was somewhat inconvenienced.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <01-01-12/1808:15>
A historical example of small but intimidating because of reputation was Adolf Hitler.  He was a small, funny-looking man; however, he was intimidating in person and even more so if you happened to know the type of power he wielded.  Napoleon would have fit this bill quite easily too.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <01-01-12/1830:04>
A historical example of small but intimidating because of reputation was Adolf Hitler.  He was a small, funny-looking man; however, he was intimidating in person and even more so if you happened to know the type of power he wielded.  Napoleon would have fit this bill quite easily too.
Want a smaller person with even more intimidating power?

General Winter.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <01-01-12/1922:08>
Want a smaller person with even more intimidating power?

General Winter.

Are you making reference to our wonderful Canadian weather?  Or am I missing something?   ???
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <01-01-12/1924:39>
Want a smaller person with even more intimidating power?

General Winter.
Are you making reference to our wonderful Canadian weather?  Or am I missing something?   ???
General Winter is a General that Russia and Canada share, and is the only general to stop both Hitler and Napoleon cold (pun intended.).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <01-01-12/2128:15>
Want a smaller person with even more intimidating power?

General Winter.
Are you making reference to our wonderful Canadian weather?  Or am I missing something?   ???
General Winter is a General that Russia and Canada share, and is the only general to stop both Hitler and Napoleon cold (pun intended.).

Nice.  I'll have to remember that.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <01-01-12/2308:28>
Of course, Hitler had charisma. Yes, he was an evil bastard, but that doesn't change the fact that he had charisma. Hell, watch a video of one of his speeches. Even knowing he's an evil bastard, even knowing what happened because of it, even without knowing a word of German, even with the bad quality of video recordings compared to today, you still can get swept up in the flow of his words. THAT is charisma, make no mistake.

Now if only he hadn't taken so many ranks in 'evil bastard'...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <01-01-12/2315:43>
Now if only he hadn't taken so many ranks in 'evil bastard'...

Funny.  +1 Rep for that.

Of course, Hitler had charisma. Yes, he was an evil bastard, but that doesn't change the fact that he had charisma. Hell, watch a video of one of his speeches. Even knowing he's an evil bastard, even knowing what happened because of it, even without knowing a word of German, even with the bad quality of video recordings compared to today, you still can get swept up in the flow of his words. THAT is charisma, make no mistake.

Proof that Charisma in and of itself is truely what influences intimidation.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Scarecrow on <01-02-12/1358:04>

It already is possible to trade dice in for hits in some situations (can't remember what situations off the top of my head), and it conversion is 4 dice for 1 hit.

4 dice for 1 hit?  I know it's in the rules, but if a character is in a non stressful situation, I think it should be 3:1.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Tagz on <01-02-12/1452:17>
4:1 without the possibility of glitch is already a good deal.  A 3:1 without possibility of glitch seems a bit too generous to me, but house it how you see fit.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <01-02-12/1517:33>
Also note that you can't buy some hits, and then roll for the rest. You buy hits, or you roll.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Scarecrow on <01-02-12/1537:06>
Also note that you can't buy some hits, and then roll for the rest. You buy hits, or you roll.

So, I am rolling 15 dice.  If I buy hits, based on RAW, I would only get 3 hits but lose the chance of rolling a glitch.  Likewise, if I roll all 15 dice, law of averages dictates that I should get 5 hits and may roll a glitch which is sitting at 1:56,000 chance (assuming I did my math right, which I very well may not have).  Obviously 15 dice is excessive, but it is only an example.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <01-02-12/1613:21>
Also note that you can't buy some hits, and then roll for the rest. You buy hits, or you roll.

So, I am rolling 15 dice.  If I buy hits, based on RAW, I would only get 3 hits but lose the chance of rolling a glitch.  Likewise, if I roll all 15 dice, law of averages dictates that I should get 5 hits and may roll a glitch which is sitting at 1:56,000 chance (assuming I did my math right, which I very well may not have).  Obviously 15 dice is excessive, but it is only an example.

Yep... but if you get 1 more die you can buy 4 hits.

The way I've always looked at it is that buying hits is for situations that are "significantly below the character's level of competence" (quoted just so it stands out more), with "level of competence" being defined as your character's typical 1/3rd rate for hits.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <01-02-12/1744:53>
Or for those situations where you only need a couple hits. Say, if the threshold was 3 for a certain effect to go off.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <01-02-12/1830:53>
Or for those situations where you only need a couple hits. Say, if the threshold was 3 for a certain effect to go off.

Well, yeah, of course.

I was just narratively rationalizing why they use 1:4 for buying hits vs the 1:3 average for rolling them; i.e. situations where the threshold (3, in this case) is low enough that the character looks at the situation and goes "Pffft, is that all? This is gonna be cake!", not "Hmmm, shouldn't be too difficult". The latter, of course, being the equivalent of the Take 10 action from D&D.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FraustyTheSnowman on <01-10-12/1303:10>
Might not be the right place for this, and if not my bad...

I'm looking for something to represent the exact opposite of going full defensive. Haven't seen anything in the rules yet, so I figured I'd propose a house rule and see what people more familiar with the basics than I thought.

Going full offensive...
Character rolls double related attribute along with skill when making an attack, but loses the ability to roll any dice for defense until his/her next action.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <01-10-12/1746:07>
Look in Arsenal, under the More Ways to Die section, at some of the maneuvers.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FraustyTheSnowman on <01-10-12/2153:27>
Good catch, I never would have thought to look there. Can't say that I like the rule though...only giving you +2 dice...hmmm...I need to think on this some more.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <01-11-12/2146:53>
Remember that offense is way more powerful than defense in SR.  So those extra 2 dice not only confer more damage potential, but reduce the chance of being hit in the first place.  Combo'd with other maneuvers, then one could effectively make 2 or more attacks in a single action all with the +2 bonus.  It gets nasty fast.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FraustyTheSnowman on <01-12-12/1104:34>
Not that I'm dissagreing, but my perception of the rules differ....though it's very likely this is because my understanding of the rules is still very limited. Given that an attacker rolls an attribute and a skill, against (often times, but not always) a defenders attribute and skill, with the defender further rolling an attribute and armor, I would say over all the defender has the advantage. What am I missing?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <01-12-12/2258:27>
The attacker does not have to roll for damage, as in other systems.

For example, Exalted (both editions, as well as oWoD) heavily favors the defender, because even after an attack, even with bonus hits converting to damage, that damage must be rolled and it is entirely possible to come up with zero.  Which is especially frustrating after rolling a ton of extra successes vs. someone with very little armor or defense.  Even in D&D and many other D20 systems, damage is a variable, and its possible to get very low damage even on a critical hit.

Shadowrun OTOH, in all editions, states a baseline amount of damage for each weapon and each attack.  That damage can be resisted, but no matter what happens, the damage does not start at zero and have to be worked up.  For many weapons, it starts high and characters have to work it down, hoping that the attacker does not roll well.

Does that help?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <01-13-12/0153:36>
Shadowrun OTOH, in all editions, states a baseline amount of damage for each weapon and each attack.  That damage can be resisted, but no matter what happens, the damage does not start at zero and have to be worked up.  For many weapons, it starts high and characters have to work it down, hoping that the attacker does not roll well.

Does that help?

This is why, for example, a Sakura Fubiki (Light pistol, fires 3RBs with only SA recoil) loaded with Stick'n'Shock is so lethal* highly effective.

6S base, vs 1/2 Impact armor (+Nonconductivity mods), the 3RB makes it 8S before hits, and you can double-tap it without eating a huge recoil penalty. That's a good recipe for dropping someone in one action phase.


EDIT: *Whoops
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FraustyTheSnowman on <01-13-12/1233:43>
A little. I think Shadowrun is more consistant for the reasons you stated, but I think with d20 you have just as good of a chance to roll high as you do low. Mostly I think I just need more experience with the rules in play (unfortunately not likely to happen any time soon) to really see it.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <01-13-12/1338:56>
The point is that damage is still a variable in all those systems.  After the hit, which in D20 the accuracy of the hit is irrelevant to it's damage apart from crits, damage is rolled and it might be high but it is equally valid that it might be low.  That chance of moderate to low damage is what favors the defender, giving their defenses a good chance to negate it entirely.

For Shadowrun, in order to negate even a nominal hit with a low damage attack, for example a light pistol (4P), the defender needs to have 12 dice of body + armor to have a reasonable chance to negate it.  (For shadowrunners this usually isn't an issue, for Joe Average, this is difficult.)  If the attack was at all accurate, for each point of extra accuracy, there is an extra point of damage.  That isn't "potential damage," that is actual damage inflicted.  Therefore to be assured a reasonable chance to resist the attack, for every extra hit on the attack roll, the defender needs 3 extra dice to roll to resist.  (Note I'm leaving out the defender's defense roll at this time, and simply using net accuracy.)

Other game systems use a format like this:

ATTACKER:                THEN                   DEFENDER:
Roll to attack                                            Roll to defend
Roll to damage                                         Roll to resist

That extra variable in the attack step gives the defender a chance to resist or take less damage, as that damage is not inflicted in the first place.  In Shadowrun, to reiterate and perhaps be more clear, the format is:

ATTACKER:                THEN                   DEFENDER:
Roll to attack                                          Roll to defend
                                                              Roll to resist

The attacker is done once rolling the attack.  Their damage has already been calculated in the attack roll, and is then inflicted upon the defender.  The defender has two chances to resist damage, which on the surface looks beneficial to the defender. But the attacker's damage is set using a single variable, the attack roll, while the defender has nothing certain reducing the damage they take.  Not even hardened armor is certain to reduce the damage; if the attack can overcome the rating of the armor, then all it does is provide extra dice to resist.

Certainly, the number of dice the defender rolls seems to favor him, but remember it is still random.  The defender may, or may not, resist the attack simply because of chance, while the attacker has completed his part of the system at the moment of his single roll.

That is why SR favors offense.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Windshare on <02-02-12/1101:06>
Hi !
I have a question. Do you have any house rule for a melee adept ? Swordmaster and the like ?
I mean can you imagine some kind of power like critical strike for melee weapon ? What could be the cost of such power ?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <02-02-12/1232:35>
Oh, I did that once. 0.5 PP per level, caps at 3, each time you take it choose a melee weapon type, like sword or mace or club or whip. Adds 1 DV per level.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <02-02-12/2230:24>
Hi !
I have a question. Do you have any house rule for a melee adept ? Swordmaster and the like ?
I mean can you imagine some kind of power like critical strike for melee weapon ? What could be the cost of such power ?

Me, I might just HR that a bonded Weapon Focus counts as 'Unarmed' for the use of any Adept power that works through 'Unarmed' attacks.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Redman on <02-03-12/2112:59>
I based the "true" metaraces originate from the magical elements. The so-called immortals
Orc - moss - plant
Dwarf - stone - earth
Human - Air or water
Elf - Air or water
Troll - ember - fire.

Dragon - All

All the normal metas were here about a descended for until now dominant genes.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ARC on <02-12-12/0428:55>
I based the "true" metaraces originate from the magical elements. The so-called immortals
Orc - moss - plant
Dwarf - stone - earth
Human - Air or water
Elf - Air or water
Troll - ember - fire.

Dragon - All

All the normal metas were here about a descended for until now dominant genes.


I would have Elves be Air and Humans be water, Elves tend to be more aloof and Humans tend to be able to fit in anywhere.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-12-12/1215:54>
Humans are all elements, at once and at the same time.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Waratah on <03-05-12/1840:29>
Anyone tried the "Body only for healing" optional rule (rather than Body x 2)?

Did you find this better or worse?  Grittier or not?

Have not tried that in our group but have recently considered a house rule for setting a threshold equal to the damage taken for healing.
(Actually posted this a moment ago in a healing thread)

I try to cover a lot of post run effects at the start of a new session. Give players a chance to settle into their characters before hand, go over what they've been doing with things like training, repairs and healing before the next job comes along. While we've only had one near death incident in our group (after a fateful visit to the Stuffer Shack for some nukit burgers and soycaff) but several characters badly wounded, it didn't feel like healing the damage was really a significant setback.

Basic idea:
You need to exceed the damage taken as a threshold before healing becomes effective and starts to clear the damage boxes on the condition modifier.
Wound modifiers apply to the healing check so you get the feel of as you get better you heal faster.
Usual bonuses as per the rules from medicine and first aid as appropriate.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <03-06-12/0633:18>
So do you do it as an extended test threshold or as a single test threshold.

Damage in SR4A heals very quickly compared to older editions. I think it was supposed to be a step toward streamlining things and making player deaths occur less often, but I think it went a bit too far. Wound penalties are likewise not near as debilitating.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: raggedhalo on <03-06-12/0857:30>
Having wounds set the Threshold and having Wound Penalties affect the roll feels a bit like penalising the players twice for the same thing.

I use Wound Penalties on the Healing Test, and make them pay for their time in the hospital/street doc's back room.  That seems to work well; gets them back into play relatively quickly but means that there's a cost.  I also use the optional rule for Severe Wounds, which I like a lot.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <03-06-12/0937:12>
The most I've really considered doing is using the old SR3 healing charts. Instead of having the healing test be daily automatically, it's interval is based on damage that has been taken, and each level of damage has a minimum time to heal. Example:
Damage Level*IntervalMin. Time
Deadly (All CM Boxes)30 days3 days
Serious (60% CM Boxes)20 days2 days
Moderate (30% CM Boxes)10 days1 day
Light (Any CM Boxes)1 day2 hours
*Damage Levels are rounded up.
Example: Joey the troll has a Body of 10 for 13 total CM boxes. He takes 7 boxes of Damage. The Serious damage level starts at 60% of his wound track rounded up, which means he's in luck because he has one box to go (13 x .6 = 7.8, rounded up = 8) before he gets there.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <03-06-12/0942:33>
One thing I do, since I use hit location, is let players use Body  to heal, but then there's s chance I'll hit em with some premature arthritis, or if a guy who was recently gutshot glitches, he poops himself.

If theyd rather use just Body, then none of these temporary lingering effects come up because they took time to take care of thrir wounds.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Waratah on <03-07-12/0117:05>
I was looking at the healing as an extended test still, but the threshold idea was to allow for recovery period where the character holds stable for a period of time before they start improving.
It felt like a heavily wounded character could walk off those wounds after a couple of days without any assistance and that didn't feel right, hence the idea about the threshold.
Adding in the wound modifiers certainly extends that time and can make it impossible for a character who is badly wounded to recover at all unless they do get help.

I have to say that the rules for healing and where the modifiers get applied is not very clear.
After going over it yesterday I was using all relevant modifiers to the healing test (The BOD+BOD and BOD+WIL) as well as to the First Aid and Medical tests. Started to feel like doubling up in some areas but in otherways it made sense.

Anyone else apply these modifiers?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The Big Peat on <03-15-12/2138:09>
Has anyone come up with some good house rules for allowing Longarms to be anything other than the ugly unwanted stepchild of the Shoot People family?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <03-15-12/2154:29>
Has anyone come up with some good house rules for allowing Longarms to be anything other than the ugly unwanted stepchild of the Shoot People family?

Chop the not-really-an-automatic-weapon-at-all Battle Rifles out of Automatics and put them into Longarms.

Battle Rifles are burst-fire at best, stock, and there's plenty of burst-fire Heavy Pistols and Shotguns... even some FAs for the Shotguns... that don't use the Automatics skill.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <03-16-12/0651:49>
Well, Battle Rifles are more closely related to assault rifles than they are to longarms. To be honest, the problem with Longarms is that the only weapon class in the skill you're gunbunny is going to be using in most situations is a shotgun. For Street Samurai and Weapons Specialists, there isn't much call for such things.

However, I've found that longarms is a great skill for low-IP characters. Any character that normally has 1-2 IP can arguably be more effective with a sniper rifle or shotgun than they can with automatics. Especially if that character is a mage or a hacker/technomancer. Use a sniper rifle to 'reach out and touch someone' at range, and then switch to a shotgun when people are closer in.

So Longarms isn't that bad, all told, it just isn't good for the primary 'shooter' types. But it makes a great secondary or tertiary role for a character, since there are times when sniping will come up. Just like having someone with Demolitions is nice, even though it doesn't come up too often. (What? Why would giant explosions bringing down entire buildings get the cops to hustle to that location?)

But it is true that the skill needs more love. Look through Gun Heaven, and you see one sniper rifle, one sport rifle, and not a single shotgun. Now I'm not saying we need to pump out a ton of Barrett 121 clones, but new sniper rifles, sport rifles, and shotguns would be great.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <03-16-12/0715:11>
Well, Battle Rifles are more closely related to assault rifles than they are to longarms.

True enough. Just throwing some suggestions out on how to give Longarms some more love, though.

Another option, which I believe has been discussed elsewhere on the board, is simply eliminating Automatics as a skill and having all stocked, shoulder-fired weapons use Longarms and all pistol-type weapons use Pistols. Then you strip Rockets/Grenades/Missiles/Mortars into a separate skill called "Launchers" and fold the remaining Heavy Weapons (Cannons and MGs, IIRC) into the Firearms Skill Group so it still has 3 skills.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <03-16-12/0722:07>
Meh. Honestly, I think the best solution is to bring out more toys for the Longarms skill, and let the Pistols and Automatics chill for a while. Occam's Razor, and all.

The real problem with Longarms isn't the skill, but the fact that, except for the shotgun, the skill isn't much good for "I'm in the middle of a corporate facility, and turned the corner to come face to face with storm trooperscorpsec". Sniping is a niche ability, much like demolitions, parachuting, and Pilot Anthroform. You just don't get much call for such things. When you do, however, they are very good to have.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <03-16-12/0734:00>
Um, Dude? What you just described is pretty much the definition of a niche ability. Something that can be very useful, but most of the time isn't applicable. There just aren't many sniping opportunities in Shadowrun, unless you're either in a war zone, or doing straight wetwork. Afterall, even in the real world, most (read: the vast majority of) shootings happen at a range of 20 yards or less.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <03-16-12/0736:58>
Um, Dude? What you just described is pretty much the definition of a niche ability. Something that can be very useful, but most of the time isn't applicable. There just aren't many sniping opportunities in Shadowrun, unless you're either in a war zone, or doing straight wetwork. Afterall, even in the real world, most (read: the vast majority of) shootings happen at a range of 20 yards or less.

Yeah, I realized that right after I clicked "post", which is why I removed it. Looks like you read it before I could pull the trigger, though.

However, I must point out that most shootings happen at 20 yards or less because most people getting into shootings don't have sniper cover. ;D
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <03-16-12/0744:54>
Yes, but ambushes like that are tough to set up in most situations.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: CanRay on <03-16-12/1115:58>
True enough. Just throwing some suggestions out on how to give Longarms some more love, though.
Honestly, there are a LOT of Longarms in Shadowrun, we just don't have stats for them.  I really doubt that M1-Garands, SMLEs, and Kar98Ks are going to be going away any time soon.  Not to mention all the other hunting rifles specifically designed as such that weren't military designs.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The Big Peat on <03-19-12/0521:00>
One of my problems with longarms is that sniper rifles aren't a good reason to take them, because as by rules you might as well take an assault cannon. Any house rules fix I did would have to get around that. Two possible ideas I'm seeing are a) allow sniper rifles an increased bonus to aim actions and b) make it so they're very quiet, and the likes of assault cannons are very noisy. I'm not completely sure on how realistic both of these are, but it would at least encourage stealthy snipers to take the sniper rifle, not the bloody Gauss cannon.

I've no problem with Longarms being somewhat niche, but when they're outperformed in what they were designed to do, there's issues.

I was also (and this is possibly a different discussion) under the impression that IRL shotguns are an excellent choice for short ranged urban fighting, which, in SR, they're just not - making the shotgun an attractive option for 'Screw subtlety' moments would be a big benefit to them I think.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <03-19-12/0721:08>
Assault cannons are already really loud, as are unsilenced sniper rifles (or sport rifles, for that matter). The difference is that you can throw a silencer on a sniper rifle, and (unfortunately) you can't on an assault cannon. Beyond that, the difference between the two becomes the fact that one draws a police response, and the other draws a national guard response to the scene. It is the difference between driving an Bulldog with a machine gun mounted on the roof and driving a main battle tank. One of these is going to get more attention from people yes? And in the shadows, unless you're Kane, attention is generally bad for your health.

Also, it is a lot easier to get sniper rifle ammo than it is to get assault cannon ammo. This basically boils down to whether the DM properly makes the players feel the consequences of their actions. A sniper rifle is a scalpel. A Gauss rifle is a machete. Yes, you can use them for some of the same things, but they both have different intended roles. And using one where the other is called for is going to cause some issues.

As for shotguns, they are an excellent choice for short-ranged urban fighting, if you're a low IP character. Someone with 1 initiative pass would do much better with a shotgun than they would with a heavy pistol or assault rifle, because the shotgun does more damage in fewer shots. Just like Suppressing Fire gets more useful the fewer IPs you have.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <03-19-12/0929:08>
As for shotguns, they are an excellent choice for short-ranged urban fighting, if you're a low IP character. Someone with 1 initiative pass would do much better with a shotgun than they would with a heavy pistol or assault rifle, because the shotgun does more damage in fewer shots. Just like Suppressing Fire gets more useful the fewer IPs you have.

I still want to see some Dragonsbreath ammo for those things. Maybe treat them like you would a shot from the "pistol-size" flamethrower, and you get a -1 to shoot the weapon (which doesn't go away until it's repaired and refitted) for every X rounds you fire without a cooldown, since the stuff overheats the metal?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <03-19-12/0946:11>
They've already created treated barrels now that don't warp from the fire rounds, but you can't fire regular shot/slugs through them without damage. Kind of ironic. You could easily make it a weapon mod to not damage and have swapping barrels take one or two complex actions.

Personally, I'd like to see something similar to the old tac nail rounds people used to load in the ozarks. They were useless at more than across the room range and ruined barrels fast, but were amazing for close range defense.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <03-19-12/1005:59>
Personally, I'd like to see something similar to the old tac nail rounds people used to load in the ozarks. They were useless at more than across the room range and ruined barrels fast, but were amazing for close range defense.

So, basically AP Flechettes? ;)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <03-19-12/1015:50>
Pretty similar concept. The difference though is that until about the eight foot mark the Tac Nails would usually still fly straight and "hammer" through a target (especially the large headed ones). After that point they'd tumble over and wouldn't really penetrate anything. Hmmm...now I'm left wondering what the armor value of a human is.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <03-19-12/1049:22>
Pretty similar concept. The difference though is that until about the eight foot mark the Tac Nails would usually still fly straight and "hammer" through a target (especially the large headed ones). After that point they'd tumble over and wouldn't really penetrate anything. Hmmm...now I'm left wondering what the armor value of a human is.

For over-penetration? I'd say give 'em a rating equal to the condition monitor + overflow. ;D
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xzylvador on <03-31-12/1713:49>
Trying to find the best house rule to make Longarms a little more useful/interesting... which would be best?
'Taking Aim with a Sniper Rifle or a Sports Rifle grants a +2 dice pool bonus when firing SS or SA instead of +1. The maximum amount of Take Aim actions is still equal to half the characters weapon skill, rounded down.'
OR
'Called Shots made with a Sniper Rifle or a Sports Rifle while firing SS or SA only impose half the dice pool modifier they would otherwise.'

(Came up with that second one while typing the first... it seems to better get the idea across.)

Another thing I was strongly considering was allowing SnS rounds only for Longarms...
Maybe combining one of the above rules and allowing SnS in Shotguns only would be even better? Then all three have something special going for them, while still solving the cheese that is SnS?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <04-03-12/2128:59>
EWWW!!!! D20 Shadowrun thats Thats Blaspheme
Hey! I was trying to convince a bunch of gamers that refused to learn a new system to play SR.
If they refuse to learn a new system are they realy worth it. Also whouldnt a free contact at xx rating not make shure they have a contact. I once in 3 ed i made a fixer charter I spent almost the whole new yen cap on contacts. So the GM gave me a list of jobs that needed people wanted done and i cherry picked the one for our group and passed the rest off to difrent contacts. It required allot of record keeping the made me do most of it but he had to have list of ideas for missions so was a bit of a pain on him.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <04-03-12/2342:45>
Trying to find the best house rule to make Longarms a little more useful/interesting... which would be best?
'Taking Aim with a Sniper Rifle or a Sports Rifle grants a +2 dice pool bonus when firing SS or SA instead of +1. The maximum amount of Take Aim actions is still equal to half the characters weapon skill, rounded down.'
OR
'Called Shots made with a Sniper Rifle or a Sports Rifle while firing SS or SA only impose half the dice pool modifier they would otherwise.'

(Came up with that second one while typing the first... it seems to better get the idea across.)

Another thing I was strongly considering was allowing SnS rounds only for Longarms...
Maybe combining one of the above rules and allowing SnS in Shotguns only would be even better? Then all three have something special going for them, while still solving the cheese that is SnS?
S&S rounds are out today for shot guns. I took them for the underbarrel shot gun for when i needed to stun some one, seamed a little op that some one had them in a pistole with what they do. Why use gel rounds. But most the time in combat i just gunned them down with my ausalt rifle, S&S was just for when i wanted to take some one alive. To costly with a tight wad GM lets see rescue a guy from a gang hide out with 30 members in it for 6K split 5 ways, good thing the face was able to talk him up no way we could do that run for the original offer of 3K. That whould not pay the rent for the month of down time he always places between runs. Oh and fail one run and a loaylty 5 fixer cuts you off.
Long arms have there use never underestmate the advange of sniping. A gun adept elf sniper can realy put hurt on a party from out side of there range. Give him camelion coted rifle silencer and camelion suit and he is likely to get away with picking off a player or two. Lets see he got how many success with his 15 dice? to stage up the damage of his sniper rifle. But in close combat the only long arme used is shot guns what happend to the double aut buck, not quite the same as flechet rounds. (Personaly i think shot guns need better more ammou choces.)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-04-12/1824:39>
First off, yeah, shotties need more ammo choices. Secondly, to h*** with buckshot if you're talking about close ranges. Birdshot is where it's at up close. It transfers more of the kinetic energy from one round into a nice tight area. Basically, -1 AP, +1 Dam. Buckshot would be the opposite, +1 AP, -1 Dam. And shotguns firing slugs would just be nasty. Wouldn't deal with the normal flechette AP modifications for normal shotgun rounds, but still doing the same damage as a normal shotgun round. Soaked by ballistic armor. And that's just the start of what you can do with shotguns. Sawing them off makes the less accurate over distance, but makes them more concealable. Different gauges of shotguns exist, and I would hate to see what the damage would be on a 10 gauge. Most of the shotguns in the rules seem to be 12 or 14 gauge barrels. Also, let's not forget that in our world right now, there are military shotgun rounds that are basically tiny explosive missals. Look them up, they are called Frag-12 shotgun ammunition. Fin-stabilized, high explosive armor penetrating shotgun shells. Nasty buggers from what the military is saying. To h*** with rules for dragonsbreath. I want those in game!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The Big Peat on <04-06-12/0233:35>
Trying to find the best house rule to make Longarms a little more useful/interesting... which would be best?
'Taking Aim with a Sniper Rifle or a Sports Rifle grants a +2 dice pool bonus when firing SS or SA instead of +1. The maximum amount of Take Aim actions is still equal to half the characters weapon skill, rounded down.'
OR
'Called Shots made with a Sniper Rifle or a Sports Rifle while firing SS or SA only impose half the dice pool modifier they would otherwise.'

(Came up with that second one while typing the first... it seems to better get the idea across.)

Another thing I was strongly considering was allowing SnS rounds only for Longarms...
Maybe combining one of the above rules and allowing SnS in Shotguns only would be even better? Then all three have something special going for them, while still solving the cheese that is SnS?

I'd strongly been considering your first option as a house rule, possibly as a 5 point quality - it would go a way towards making sniper rifles no longer the wussy middle brother of the Assault Cannon and Battle Rifle. I'm almost tempted to say both, although that's quite bloody powerful. But then really, a sniper taking all that time to aim, should be.

I tend to just mercilessly ban SnS, but allowing it to shotguns is a reasonable fudge. Although I wouldn't mind powering them up further to make them a true kingpin of close up firearms - which, by my understanding, is where they should be.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Cailieg on <04-06-12/1302:42>


For Shadowrun, in order to negate even a nominal hit with a low damage attack, for example a light pistol (4P), the defender needs to have 12 dice of body + armor to have a reasonable chance to negate it.  (For shadowrunners this usually isn't an issue, for Joe Average, this is difficult.) If the attack was at all accurate, for each point of extra accuracy, there is an extra point of damage.  That isn't "potential damage," that is actual damage inflicted.  Therefore to be assured a reasonable chance to resist the attack, for every extra hit on the attack roll, the defender needs 3 extra dice to roll to resist.  (Note I'm leaving out the defender's defense roll at this time, and simply using net accuracy.)

That is why SR favors offense.

<snip>

Can you point me to the highlighted rule in the RAW? I have been using a +1DV per two hits ala old staging rules and feel silly if I missed an already present +1DV per hit.


Alexis
*smiles*
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-07-12/0227:06>
Page 149 of the 20th Anniversary Issue of Core Rules. Steps 4 through Steps 6.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <04-07-12/0455:57>
One houserule we always have in every game we call the Pat rule. You have to play your gender, had issues in the group with some one hitting on a players charter of the oppiset gender to the point of making several people uncomftable with it.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: shrike on <04-07-12/0701:02>
That is something that should be easily countered by talking to the players. If something is making a player uncomfortable, it should be addressed, discussed, and stopped. Roleplaying is about having fun.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <04-07-12/1040:42>
That is something that should be easily countered by talking to the players. If something is making a player uncomfortable, it should be addressed, discussed, and stopped. Roleplaying is about having fun.
That was tried it kept up so a house rule was put in place to stop it. After that there was no problems with that, and every one stated having fun.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <04-07-12/1958:13>
They'd be uncomfortable in all my games then...I've seen one char who had forgotten its original gender.

And on shotguns and SnS, the damage rating system doesnt really allow for showcasing the range of realworld shotguns.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <04-07-12/2227:50>
Well the rule is not because every one needed it why you think it was called the Pat rule. Wait they forgot there gender sounds like a cursed item from some where.

Another rule witch was sorta fun watching some one deal with- If your charter does does something stupid and goes to jail you have to roll play your time in jail wiht your cell mates Huggy the troll, Squeezy the orc, and Clinchy the dwarf. Roll your unarmed combat vs there skill at ummmm taking advantage of you. Oh look they win roll your will to see if you like it.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-08-12/0022:21>
That is something that should be easily countered by talking to the players. If something is making a player uncomfortable, it should be addressed, discussed, and stopped. Roleplaying is about having fun.

See, here is where the GM gets to have some fun. Especially if you drag people away from that "Storytelling Game of Personal Horror"... You already know what makes their sphincters tighten, and know what their limits are. Gnome subtypes of dwarves are good for this one... Especially if the runners have never run into them, and even better, the players haven't bothered to read Runner's Companion beyond what they wanted their characters to have. Making players slightly uncomfortable is a little bit of what this game is about. Because not everything is rainbows and puppy dogs in the Sixth World. Seriously, though, if the players show a bit of squemishness towards a guy playing a girl hitting on a guy playing a guy, I will introduce their characters to Bubba, the Surgically-Altered Love Troll. He's got all the parts, so he can spread the love no matter what you thought you liked.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <04-08-12/0134:03>
Well the rule is not because every one needed it why you think it was called the Pat rule. Wait they forgot there gender sounds like a cursed item from some where.

Lots of 'ware from Augmentation. Breast Implants, cyber-penis, fiber optic hair. Character was a disguise master with Amnesia.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-08-12/0205:29>
Well the rule is not because every one needed it why you think it was called the Pat rule. Wait they forgot there gender sounds like a cursed item from some where.

Lots of 'ware from Augmentation. Breast Implants, cyber-penis, fiber optic hair. Character was a disguise master with Amnesia.

Not to mention some seriously messed up bunraku puppets.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <04-08-12/1155:07>
Another rule witch was sorta fun watching some one deal with- If your charter does does something stupid and goes to jail you have to roll play your time in jail wiht your cell mates Huggy the troll, Squeezy the orc, and Clinchy the dwarf. Roll your unarmed combat vs there skill at ummmm taking advantage of you. Oh look they win roll your will to see if you like it.

Umm...they wouldn't like it if they aren't inclined that way, and rape isn't ever enjoyable unless you are a hot anime chick. Soooo....I hope you weren't serious about that.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <04-08-12/1642:48>
Another rule witch was sorta fun watching some one deal with- If your charter does does something stupid and goes to jail you have to roll play your time in jail wiht your cell mates Huggy the troll, Squeezy the orc, and Clinchy the dwarf. Roll your unarmed combat vs there skill at ummmm taking advantage of you. Oh look they win roll your will to see if you like it.

Umm...they wouldn't like it if they aren't inclined that way, and rape isn't ever enjoyable unless you are a hot anime chick. Soooo....I hope you weren't serious about that.
Wait going to Jail is supose to be fun. That was started when a some one started acting real disruptive in game. He did not care if his charter died, and the place we played at had a rule that any one that wanted to play could. So it was a way for the GM to discorage behavo that is not right such as placing bait near some homless kids and wating in the shadows with a shotgun or or gunning down kids at a bus stop. The only reason we thaght it was funny was because all the problems he had been causing so much disruption in the game flow. But in most games rules like that whould not be needed.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <04-09-12/0454:37>
subtract "roll your will to see if you enjoy it" and I think it is perfectly fine.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <04-09-12/2113:52>
subtract "roll your will to see if you enjoy it" and I think it is perfectly fine.
that was in 3rd with a target of 2, the gm was tring to be funny about it. any roll was a pass.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Harms on <04-27-12/1800:08>
While I have  played  D&d for 22 years and Shadow Run for 13, I have never GM ed before.I am planning  on running a game for my younger brother and his friends this weekend. So to get ready I have been making characters in my spare time, I find its the  easiest way to learn a new  game system.   
Iv come up with the fallowing house rules based on both past gaming exp, house rules I picked up from my parents and other past GMs and mostly from just making character using the base book rules.  I plan on using the following rules. 
1. I plan on using the Karma build system, probable 500 points to start with since my players are new to gaming. I like the karma system over the other two because it seems to let you make more rounded characters. 
2.I am going to let them take any meta race or variants they want  .   
3.I am not going to put a cap on  + or - qualities. If they want to spend a large chunk of karma on  + qualities that's fine. As for negative qualities the stipulations I have is they  have to all be linked some how like if your playing a nerdy mage and take Asthma, combat paralysis, and a butch of allergy's that's fine. But if they take a bunch of odd ones I want back story as to why you  have them. I was also thinking of letting them be able to take the Debt quality multiple times up to 1/2 their Chr but each time have it with a different group for instance if the had a 4 Chr they could take 60 bp or 120 karma  but owe 30/60 of it to the yakuza and the other half to the mob. 
4. I liked the idea of giving them Chr X 2 or (Chr X 3 if they play a face) In free contacts.  I plan of doing contacts a little different, for one I am thinking of doing the Connection rating as not just who your contact knows but how well they do there jobs because were a rating 6 face who knows allot of people makes sense a rating 6 stripper doesn't, so what I plan to do is have them specify if the connection rank is for connections or for job skills. If they do  job skills then there contact is awesome at what they do which can translate to an easier time getting stuff fixed of made, like if they had a rating 6 mechanic of armorer their guns and  vehicles get fix faster and they can get any of the upgrades they wanted for cheap . 
5.Gear wise I am going to go with if they can afford it they can have it but if its anything over availability 12  I want a back story as to why they have it and from there I may or may not tweek the item. For instance  Bob buys a panther cannon. Bob were did you get the panther cannon?, Bob says it was his dads .Bob why did your dad have the panther cannon?, Bob says that his dad was a former Shadowrunner.I say fine you can have it but since its old and beat up from some of  your dads runs the cannon can only load ammo by clip and has a tendencies to jam. Bobs happy cause he got his panther cannon, that may or may not jam on a glitch, and I am happy cause I have back story  I can later use  to mess with Bob .   
7.For spell casters since they get karma raped, do to paying for magic initiation and every other thing they have to spend karma for   I am going to give them their caster stat in free spells like if their Chr was 4 they get 4 free spells or if their Log was 6 they get 6. 
8. I put some thought into the Spell/SpiritKnack Quality and turned it from something worthless into something worth playing with. The way I worked it is as such Its works pretty much like the magician quality with the following Exceptions. 
1.You Get your chooses of 1 spell and one spirit type to cast and summon. You can only bind half your Chr in spirits.                                                                                                                                                                                                 2.Knack Spellcasters have Astral Perception but not Astral projection.                                                                                3.You get a +2 die modifier to casting and summoning or to dealing with  the  drain.                                                              4. Because your casting the same spell day in and day out the spell you pick will have some sort of tweek to it, such as a Fireball that is not as draining  (f/2)+2 instead of (f/2)+5 or the Fireball could affect a area twice a big as normal or when casting the spell you could overcast it and the drain dmg would stay S instead of P. Another example spell could be a Shape change that only affects the caster but allows gear and cloths to be absorbed,  the caster could turn into any animal with a body difference of 4 instead of 2. The Tweek can be player made but has to be Gm approved.                                                                                                                                                                                                   5. The spirits you chose seem to like you, this translates into a few benefits. One when summoning you can choose one of the following perks to happen, spirits opposing test is done at half force,you get twice as many tasks or spirits stick around for a full 24 hours instead of dusk till dawn or dawn till dusk. Second binding is easier, spirits only use force instead of force X 2 to resist . If you have the Spirit Affinity Quality you can pick two of the perks when summoning and if you glitch or pass out during binding the spirit will not attack you. However penalties for mistreating spirits is steep in addition to loosing all the above benefits, what ever  the penalties normally associated with mistreatment of spirits are double.Spirits should be treated as friends and with the Spirit Affinity quality they are best friends and family treat them as such.                                                                                                                                                                                  6. Knack spellcasters can initiate and in addition  to being able to learn meta magic skills  they can also learn Astral Project or to summon a new type of spirit. After Initiating knack spellcasters may learn a new spell that they must design, learning the spell costs 10 karma and they may never have more spells than 1+initiate grade. 
 
So far this is what I am going with tell me what you all think.
 
 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Valnar on <04-27-12/1934:29>
While I have  played  D&d for 22 years and Shadow Run for 13, I have never GM ed before.I am planning  on running a game for my younger brother and his friends this weekend. So to get ready I have been making characters in my spare time, I find its the  easiest way to learn a new  game system.   
Iv come up with the fallowing house rules based on both past gaming exp, house rules I picked up from my parents and other past GMs and mostly from just making character using the base book rules.  I plan on using the following rules. 
1. I plan on using the Karma build system, probable 500 points to start with since my players are new to gaming. I like the karma system over the other two because it seems to let you make more rounded characters.

Cutting their karma by 250 points of what is considered normal seems a bit excessive if you ask me. Maybe let them have 600-650 Karma instead?

Quote
3.I am not going to put a cap on  + or - qualities. If they want to spend a large chunk of karma on  + qualities that's fine. As for negative qualities the stipulations I have is they  have to all be linked some how like if your playing a nerdy mage and take Asthma, combat paralysis, and a butch of allergy's that's fine. But if they take a bunch of odd ones I want back story as to why you  have them. I was also thinking of letting them be able to take the Debt quality multiple times up to 1/2 their Chr but each time have it with a different group for instance if the had a 4 Chr they could take 60 bp or 120 karma  but owe 30/60 of it to the yakuza and the other half to the mob.

I think having some kind of cap on both positive and negative qualities is a pretty solid design decision. I'd very carefully consider dropping this cap entirely. Maybe just increase the cap so it won't be that much of an issue?

Quote
4. I liked the idea of giving them Chr X 2 or (Chr X 3 if they play a face) In free contacts.  I plan of doing contacts a little different, for one I am thinking of doing the Connection rating as not just who your contact knows but how well they do there jobs because were a rating 6 face who knows allot of people makes sense a rating 6 stripper doesn't, so what I plan to do is have them specify if the connection rank is for connections or for job skills. If they do  job skills then there contact is awesome at what they do which can translate to an easier time getting stuff fixed of made, like if they had a rating 6 mechanic of armorer their guns and  vehicles get fix faster and they can get any of the upgrades they wanted for cheap.

Free contact points is a house rule I really like. Maybe make the free points tied to their social skills as well? And I wouldn't give the face a bonus on this. If somebody wants to play a face, they'll have to put some points into actually being one, that's just how it is for every other character as well.

Quote
   
7.For spell casters since they get karma raped, do to paying for magic initiation and every other thing they have to spend karma for   I am going to give them their caster stat in free spells like if their Chr was 4 they get 4 free spells or if their Log was 6 they get 6.

Nice idea imo, but maybe that's just me being biased towards playing awakened characters xD
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <04-28-12/0122:09>
subtract "roll your will to see if you enjoy it" and I think it is perfectly fine.
Chance "Enjoy it" to "are mentally scarred by it", and it's better than fine.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <04-28-12/0126:22>
7.For spell casters since they get karma raped, do to paying for magic initiation and every other thing they have to spend karma for   I am going to give them their caster stat in free spells like if their Chr was 4 they get 4 free spells or if their Log was 6 they get 6. 
  Cash-for-Karma works fine to handle this, IMO.  I always allow people to decide, at the moment of the award, to cut the Cash in half to up the Karma by 50%, or vice versa.  Getting extra money?  Got lucky at the casino or weekly poker game.  Getting more karma?  Training, doing good deeds, etc.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <04-29-12/2120:42>
7.For spell casters since they get karma raped, do to paying for magic initiation and every other thing they have to spend karma for   I am going to give them their caster stat in free spells like if their Chr was 4 they get 4 free spells or if their Log was 6 they get 6. 
  Cash-for-Karma works fine to handle this, IMO.  I always allow people to decide, at the moment of the award, to cut the Cash in half to up the Karma by 50%, or vice versa.  Getting extra money?  Got lucky at the casino or weekly poker game.  Getting more karma?  Training, doing good deeds, etc.
donating to cyber ware for tots.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Bonx on <04-30-12/0720:59>
Well, Battle Rifles are more closely related to assault rifles than they are to longarms.

True enough. Just throwing some suggestions out on how to give Longarms some more love, though.

Another option, which I believe has been discussed elsewhere on the board, is simply eliminating Automatics as a skill and having all stocked, shoulder-fired weapons use Longarms and all pistol-type weapons use Pistols. Then you strip Rockets/Grenades/Missiles/Mortars into a separate skill called "Launchers" and fold the remaining Heavy Weapons (Cannons and MGs, IIRC) into the Firearms Skill Group so it still has 3 skills.

My rule is that the Firearms Group Skill is (specializations in brackets) :
- Hand guns (Pistols, Machine-Pistols, Submachine Guns)
- Long guns (Assault Rifles, Shotguns, Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Battle Rifles)
- Machine guns (light, medium, heavy)

Launchers skill covers : mortars, rocket and missile launchers, and grenade launchers (both stand alone and under barrel versions) and assault canons.

I find the Firearms GS as it is a complete nonsense. Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?

Also, I am thinking about making a distinction between aimed shots (weapon is held at the level of the eyes, like the iron sight in some shooters) which is based on Agility and instinctive shots (where the weapon is held at the level of the belly like in duels of revolver, or with the stock of automatic weapons blocked below the arm pit) which is based on Intuition. Depending on the situation players would use either Agility or Intuition.

It does fit with the description of actions and it prevents (some) players from exploiting the overpowered Agility attribute.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <04-30-12/1155:36>
Sounds cool.

*snip*
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <04-30-12/1221:44>
But wouldn't the weapon being shouldered and aimed down the sights be just as much about perception (Intuition) than flexibility (agility)? I think the major disconnect here for many people is that agility doesn't just cover your gracefulness/nimbleness/flexibility, but it covers you hand eye coordination too.

Of course, blind fire uses INT+skill, but it's like you're trying to perceive them with your bullets (I really like Perception+attack skill better to be honest).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Bonx on <05-01-12/1136:20>
Perception would be pertinent indeed. However the system is based on Attribute + Skill tests so to comply with the system using Intuition is the best solution.

Finally, I wonder if Perception should be an Attribute instead of a skill. After all, perception is more an inherent ability of individuals than a set of competencies one can learn.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <05-01-12/1231:54>
Well, Battle Rifles are more closely related to assault rifles than they are to longarms.

True enough. Just throwing some suggestions out on how to give Longarms some more love, though.

Another option, which I believe has been discussed elsewhere on the board, is simply eliminating Automatics as a skill and having all stocked, shoulder-fired weapons use Longarms and all pistol-type weapons use Pistols. Then you strip Rockets/Grenades/Missiles/Mortars into a separate skill called "Launchers" and fold the remaining Heavy Weapons (Cannons and MGs, IIRC) into the Firearms Skill Group so it still has 3 skills.

My rule is that the Firearms Group Skill is (specializations in brackets) :
- Hand guns (Pistols, Machine-Pistols, Submachine Guns)
- Long guns (Assault Rifles, Shotguns, Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Battle Rifles)
- Machine guns (light, medium, heavy)

Launchers skill covers : mortars, rocket and missile launchers, and grenade launchers (both stand alone and under barrel versions) and assault canons.

I find the Firearms GS as it is a complete nonsense. Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?

Also, I am thinking about making a distinction between aimed shots (weapon is held at the level of the eyes, like the iron sight in some shooters) which is based on Agility and instinctive shots (where the weapon is held at the level of the belly like in duels of revolver, or with the stock of automatic weapons blocked below the arm pit) which is based on Intuition. Depending on the situation players would use either Agility or Intuition.

It does fit with the description of actions and it prevents (some) players from exploiting the overpowered Agility attribute.

This--in my opinion--is a completely unnecessary (and I think ridiculous) change to the rules which serves little or no purpose other than to be a change. Definitely a case where things are not broken, and thus there is no reason at all to try and "fix" it.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Bonx on <05-03-12/1417:15>
I have thought about a bit more about the idea of distinguishing aimed shot and instinctive shots. I have come to the following distinction. Please feel free to give me constructive feedbacks.

Aimed Ranged Attack (Agility + Weapon Skill)
This is the dice pool by default, it also encompasses:
- Taking aim
- Called shot
- Use of image magnification
- All the narrow bursts in BF and FA modes that increase the DV
- Shotguns with slug rounds

Instinctive Ranged Attack (Intuition + Weapon Skill)
- Blind fire (the target cannot be seen)
- All the wide bursts in BF and FA modes that decrease the defenders' dice pool
- Suppressive fire (treated as a wide burst)
- Shotguns with flechette ammunitions

Quick Draw Ranged Attack (Reaction + Pistols)
A single test to resolve both the draw and the shot (I don't like making two different tests) with Reaction + Pistols and a negative modifier of -3 (-2 when using quick draw holster). If the character scores no success, he has readied his weapon but did not have time to shoot on this Simple Action. If he scores a glitch the weapon stays stuck in the holster or drops on the floor. In case of critical glitch the weapon fires into the holster. This could spice up duels!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-03-12/1601:43>
Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?
  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.

Quote
Also, I am thinking about making a distinction between aimed shots (weapon is held at the level of the eyes, like the iron sight in some shooters) which is based on Agility and instinctive shots (where the weapon is held at the level of the belly like in duels of revolver, or with the stock of automatic weapons blocked below the arm pit) which is based on Intuition. Depending on the situation players would use either Agility or Intuition.
One thing to consider.: if it's a smartgun, and I have an image link, I don't have to use the iron sights to be aiming very, very precisely.  I can get a picture-in-a-picture sight from the gun itself.  With an aiming reticule and everything.
Title: Cyberlimb Armor
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-03-12/1611:00>
... is ridiculously cheap.  Seriously, four cyberlimbs with Armor(2), and you have better than an armored jacket with the family jewels swingin' in the wind, and it stacks with literally everything.

My personal ruling will be:
Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen, Rating * [2] Capacity
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen, Rating * [4] Capacity
Availability:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 4R
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 6R
Rating Limits:
... Hand/Foot: not available
... Half limb: 1 point (each limb)
... Full limb: 2 points (each limb)
... Torso: 3 points
... Skull: 2 points

It's a little more sane - just a touch more expensive.  (And note, slightly more readily available if you get the "obvious armor" version; the stock version is Rating * 5R. The downside ofthat is, well, "obvious armor on an obvious cyberlimb" ... social consequneces about.)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <05-03-12/1845:05>
Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?
  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.

What about Machine Pistols... y'know, the ones that are the SR4 equivalent to a Glock 18 and, based on the G18 and their in-game DV, the same shape and size as a Light Pistol?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-03-12/1851:40>
Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?
  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.

What about Machine Pistols... y'know, the ones that are the SR4 equivalent to a Glock 18 and, based on the G18 and their in-game DV, the same shape and size as a Light Pistol?

I didn't say I *liked* the way the rule is setup.  Just answered that one, very specific question.  :)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <05-03-12/1858:33>
Instinctive Ranged Attack (Intuition + Weapon Skill)
- Blind fire (the target cannot be seen)
- All the wide bursts in BF and FA modes that decrease the defenders' dice pool
- Suppressive fire (treated as a wide burst)
- Shotguns with flechette ammunitions

Quick Draw Ranged Attack (Reaction + Pistols)
A single test to resolve both the draw and the shot (I don't like making two different tests) with Reaction + Pistols and a negative modifier of -3 (-2 when using quick draw holster). If the character scores no success, he has readied his weapon but did not have time to shoot on this Simple Action. If he scores a glitch the weapon stays stuck in the holster or drops on the floor. In case of critical glitch the weapon fires into the holster. This could spice up duels!

With these two, the only criticism I can offer, is do not do it. Ever. Period. There is no point or reason in it. It is just extra stuff for no gain or purpose.
Title: Re: Cyberlimb Armor
Post by: JustADude on <05-03-12/1943:48>
My personal ruling will be:
Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen; also, Rating * [2] Capacity

Soooo... Obvious Armor doesn't take Capacity?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Critias on <05-03-12/1945:41>
Why a heavy pistol firing short burst is used with a different skill than for SMG firing in semi-automatic?
  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.
Except when it's not.  Whenever handedness comes up, they constantly lump SMGs in with one-handed weapons (and nothing is shoulder-fired unless you explicitly buy a shoulder stock for it, by the rules). 

I mean, it's a good try at a fair explanation, and I'm sure it's what they had in mind when they originally went through and made the hard lines between weapon classes...but I still think it's goofy.
Title: Re: Cyberlimb Armor
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-03-12/2054:56>
My personal ruling will be:
Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen; also, Rating * [2] Capacity

Soooo... Obvious Armor doesn't take Capacity?
Aha, I see the problem.  I misread the table (jumped down a line), and thought Armor only took [Rating x 1] .  My intnt was to have the concealed cyberlimb armor take up twice as much capacity.

So, those entries should read:

Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen; Rating * [2] Capacity
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen; Rating * [4] Capacity

Thanks for catching that!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <05-03-12/2136:00>
Quote
  Because how you hold each weapon is entirely different.  Your stance differs, too.  SMGs are shoulder-fired two-handed weapons.  Burst-fire capable heavy pistols (all, what ... two of them?) are not.
SMGs are not considered shoulder fired in SR. They are one handed weapons that can accept shoulder stocks. In addition, you can attach a folding stock to a Light Pistol that has BF and suddenly it's a shoulder fired burst weapon too. Just to be clear, most common shooting styles for pistols use both hands as well, especially for Heavy Pistols. There are a handful of reasons not to use two hands, but they are extremely rare and most of them boil down to "I'm a jackass that doesn't like it" irl at least.

A better example though is Auto-Shotguns. Firing a shotgun with slugs is not different than firing an assault rifle. You have a lower range, but you can't use that as an excuse to use longarms, because the other side of longarms is all about range. Likewise, why does a modded BF Sporting Rifle use a different skill than a Battle Rifle? Why does a Battle Rifle with no BF use the Automatics skill? They are all completely arbitrary decisions that make no sense when you get down to it.

As for the newer rules, I think they can cause a few issues balance wise. INT is going to be lower than any gunslinger's Agility. So firing a wide burst is going to hit them with both recoil penalites, and a second DP drop going to INT instead of AGI. The entire point is to give the enemy a DP drop. For your average gun bunny it's going to make wide bursts highly ineffective. I also don't think shotguns with flechette should be INT as you still aim right at the target and pull the trigger, the bullet does all the extra stuff.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-03-12/2253:10>
You would perhaps prefer the 3E way - where single-shot was one skill, but burstfire and automatic fire were a seperate skill?

On the one hand, I liked 3E's "skill web".

On the other hand, I do agree that "automatics" should be done away with.


And Launchers should simply be a skill unto itself, like Gunnery is.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <05-04-12/0751:58>
I whould think a one handed sub maching gun whould be called machine pistol. Athou submachine guns can be fired without using a stock, you still need 2 hands.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <05-04-12/0922:34>
Not really irl or by the rules. Sure using two hands is going to (irl) improve your stability and aim, but it's perfectly possible to fire them one handed relatively well if you're trained to. They are no different than pistols in this regard. 90% of weapons trainers are going to train you to shoot all but the tiniest pistols using a two handed grip, but they can be fired one handed with a slight reduction in stability, and therefore accuracy.

3E wasn't really better per say. It had every weapon type as a skill pretty much (Pistols, SMGs, Rifles, Assault Rifles and Shotguns. Heavy Weapons covered MGs and Assault cannons while Launch Weapons covered launcher, but they were Strength and Intelligence based respectively.) Where it had a definite advantage in realism was that you could "default" to skills rather than straight up attribute. The way SR4A changed the system (set TN), makes it weird to try and emulate defaulting to similar skills though.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <05-04-12/1926:50>
Not really irl or by the rules. Sure using two hands is going to (irl) improve your stability and aim, but it's perfectly possible to fire them one handed relatively well if you're trained to. They are no different than pistols in this regard. 90% of weapons trainers are going to train you to shoot all but the tiniest pistols using a two handed grip, but they can be fired one handed with a slight reduction in stability, and therefore accuracy.

3E wasn't really better per say. It had every weapon type as a skill pretty much (Pistols, SMGs, Rifles, Assault Rifles and Shotguns. Heavy Weapons covered MGs and Assault cannons while Launch Weapons covered launcher, but they were Strength and Intelligence based respectively.) Where it had a definite advantage in realism was that you could "default" to skills rather than straight up attribute. The way SR4A changed the system (set TN), makes it weird to try and emulate defaulting to similar skills though.
By your logic then full on assault rifles and sporting rifles are 1 handed weapons in real life some people do shoot them one handed. But for practicle uses they require 2 hands.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-04-12/1932:36>
Yes, practically speaking an SMG is usually a small, two-handed weapon with a barrel length between that of rifles and pistols, typically fired from the shoulder.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <05-04-12/2101:58>
Quote
By your logic then full on assault rifles and sporting rifles are 1 handed weapons in real life some people do shoot them one handed. But for practicle uses they require 2 hands.

Seriously, do you even read the books? There is an entire passage on this in Arsenal. Yes, I've seen people shoot up to MGs in real life. Not well, but I've seen it. SMGs and Pistols are much easier to shoot one handed (common sense here).

The rules of the game have this to say though:
Quote
Large firearms (anything rifle-sized and larger) are typically
used with two hands. A character wielding a large firearm with only
one hand will suffer a 2 dice pool modifier to ranged attacks (1
for trolls).

SMGs are not considered two handed, rifles and larger are. End of argument right there.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mirikon on <05-04-12/2257:25>
Actually, many SMGs are easily used in one hand. An Uzi comes to mind immediately, as does the MAC-10.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <05-05-12/0114:07>
Actually, many SMGs are easily used in one hand. An Uzi comes to mind immediately, as does the MAC-10.

And here's a real life example, just in case anyone doubts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9VMoLapNA8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9VMoLapNA8)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-05-12/0151:16>
Actually, many SMGs are easily used in one hand. An Uzi comes to mind immediately, as does the MAC-10.

And here's a real life example, just in case anyone doubts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9VMoLapNA8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9VMoLapNA8)
.... and just watching that thing waggle around?  I doubt he could hit the broad side of a car at over twenty feet, with more than one round in five.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <05-05-12/0747:31>
Actually, many SMGs are easily used in one hand. An Uzi comes to mind immediately, as does the MAC-10.

And here's a real life example, just in case anyone doubts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9VMoLapNA8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9VMoLapNA8)
.... and just watching that thing waggle around?  I doubt he could hit the broad side of a car at over twenty feet, with more than one round in five.

Good thing he's firing off 5-6 rounds a pop, then, isn't it? When you throw enough lead down range you don't have to be nearly as accurate, hence why "wide burst" exista.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <05-05-12/0906:38>
Also keep in mind that it isn't modded with the standard underbarrel weight, gas vent III, personalized grip and sling that most runners would use to get 6 RC.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-05-12/1034:06>
To get RC from the sling, you're pretty much bringing your second hand into the equation.  You don't get the RC just because it's hanging there, after all.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <05-05-12/1050:13>
Using a sling to absorb recoil on the shot involves forcing the gun against the sling until it's tight. You can achieve this one handed just as easily two handed. It's pretty much the opposite of using a stock, where you draw the weapon back toward you. Yes, irl two handed is more accurate, but SR makes no distinction between one handed or two handed for one handed weapons and a minimal difference for two handed weapons one handed (-2 is not even a full hit).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <05-06-12/0108:18>
Using a sling to absorb recoil on the shot involves forcing the gun against the sling until it's tight. You can achieve this one handed just as easily two handed. It's pretty much the opposite of using a stock, where you draw the weapon back toward you. Yes, irl two handed is more accurate, but SR makes no distinction between one handed or two handed for one handed weapons and a minimal difference for two handed weapons one handed (-2 is not even a full hit).

The issue could easily be solved (for any those that think it needs to be "solved") by giving out +2 RC* for using both hands on a one-handed weapon... pretty much exactly inverting the penalty for one-handing a two-handed weapon.

*Possibly +4 for Trolls, since half (1/2) the penalty would invert to twice (2/1) the bonus.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <05-06-12/1825:23>
Quote
Large firearms (anything rifle-sized and larger) are typically
used with two hands. A character wielding a large firearm with only
one hand will suffer a –2 dice pool modifier to ranged attacks (–1
for trolls).

SMGs are not considered two handed, rifles and larger are. End of argument right there.


That being said, does it make sense that an SMG used with both hands provides 1 point of recoil?  Not sure if it shows up in any of the companion books, though.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <05-07-12/0042:12>
Seriously, do you even read the books? There is an entire passage on this in Arsenal. Yes, I've seen people shoot up to MGs in real life. Not well, but I've seen it. SMGs and Pistols are much easier to shoot one handed (common sense here).
Actualy controling a light automatic weapon is harder less wgt to counter the recoil. You whould think smaller is easer to control but with automatics it is the other way around. In fact proper postion on the M240B is a one handed grip the other hand is used as a spacer when shooting prone suported, and instead of pulling it into you lean into it hard to bind the bipod. Now shooting standing changes the grip a bit making it 2 handed, but you loose allot of accuracy with it that way. (not something i read in a book but learned with first hand expearnce.)

And yes i read the books but i dont mermorize every thing in them, so the rules say X but they also count carbines witch are austalt rifles as submachine guns. But if the rules say X go with X it does not make it right.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-07-12/0303:39>
Using a sling to absorb recoil on the shot involves forcing the gun against the sling until it's tight. You can achieve this one handed just as easily two handed. It's pretty much the opposite of using a stock, where you draw the weapon back toward you. Yes, irl two handed is more accurate, but SR makes no distinction between one handed or two handed for one handed weapons and a minimal difference for two handed weapons one handed (-2 is not even a full hit).

You g ahead, read books and watch Internet Tough Guy videos on youtube all you like.  Some of us have actual first-hand experience with firing weapons like SMGs, LMG, assault rifles, and so on.  When I said "most SMGs are two handed weapons", that's because the proper use of most SMG models has both your hands on the weapon.  (As opposed to two-handed pistol stances, which typically have one hand on the weapon, and the other hand on the first hand ...  8) )
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <05-07-12/0859:49>
Heavy weight reduces recoil when it's balanced correctly, but when it's not (and using a heavy weapon meant to be brace fired primarily or two handed fired when not able to brace on handed is going to be one of these cases) it just compounds the recoil. If you doubt that, take your rifle and fire off a few shots one handed, then strap a ten pound weight to it and try it again.

Yes, when braced most MGs are don't need two hands supporting them because they are braced. The whole point of the brace is to force the weight of the gun into the brace and let the brace absorb the recoil.

The lines between machine pistols and submachine guns blur as do those between smgs and carbines. Most carbines are just short barreled versions of an assault rifle, but some, especially bullpup models, are only available as carbines and roughly the same size as an smg. It really comes down to the definitions you use. One of the most common distinctions is that most people define SMGs as using pistol ammunition and carbines as using rifle ammunition.

None of this really changes a fact that has been completely ignored here though. All this talk about SMGs being two handed weapons makes an assumption that Pistols and Machine Pistols aren't two handed weapons, but in real life nearly every stance taught involves the use of both hands on them just as much as using both hands on an SMG. OMG what can this mean? Guns are more accurate with two hands...mmkay. Universal standard here, no exceptions.

Of course with all your first hand knowledge you should probably know that. Of course, SR4A is an action movie, and unless I've missed the headlines of a real life Live Action Hero, you probably don't have any first hand knowledge from the shadowrun universe which is what the books discuss. Real Life is ---> that way. Gritty Realistic Combat in an RPG is <--- that way. This is shadowrun, home to campy humor and utterly unrealistic damages since 4th edition. Yes, book knowledge of shadowrun over-rules first hand knowledge of non-SR weapons in SR.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-07-12/0937:22>
None of this really changes a fact that has been completely ignored here though. All this talk about SMGs being two handed weapons makes an assumption that Pistols and Machine Pistols aren't two handed weapons, but in real life nearly every stance taught involves the use of both hands on them just as much as using both hands on an SMG. OMG what can this mean? Guns are more accurate with two hands...mmkay. Universal standard here, no exceptions.
  You'll note that I did mention one small difference between using a Pistol with two hands, and using an SMG or Rifle with two hands:  the Pistol doesn't generally provide a place on the weapon for that second hand.  SMGs and rifles have those - shrouds over the barrel if nothing else, if not actual foregrips.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <05-07-12/1002:51>
Some do, some don't. It varies from weapon to weapon. Try supporting one that doesn't with your hand and you'll get some nasty burn if you fire much at all. A mistake most people only make once (and a good way to watch and weed out the stupid ones, they'll do it repeatedly). Some larger pistols have a grip to hold under the barrel as well. Again, varies from weapon to weapon. Weird thing how different ones are different. However the design, it is always more accurate to be more stable, which is achievable by using a two handed stance. It's not a large gun only thing. Rather than give a bonus, the game gives a penalty for not stabilizing larger weapons.

Back on Topic
Another one I use is that I let players lower the armor on a certain item if they want. For instance, if a player wants to wear a chain shirt, but only has a 3 body, I'll let them lower the armor to 4/6 if they want. This lets players have more control with how their characters dress rather than having to play makeshift dress up to hit their armor caps. I don't see any reason there aren't essentially different levels of protection in most common lines.

I also allow players to buy non-armored versions of everything for 10-50% of the price depending on the item and fashion style. This let's players have a normal trench coat (and gain the bonuses for concealability) or non-armored camo suits.

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <05-07-12/1102:02>
Back on Topic
Another one I use is that I let players lower the armor on a certain item if they want. For instance, if a player wants to wear a chain shirt, but only has a 3 body, I'll let them lower the armor to 4/6 if they want. This lets players have more control with how their characters dress rather than having to play makeshift dress up to hit their armor caps. I don't see any reason there aren't essentially different levels of protection in most common lines.
  I like that one.  A recent character build of mine had exactly that problem, in fact ...

Quote
I also allow players to buy non-armored versions of everything for 10-50% of the price depending on the item and fashion style. This let's players have a normal trench coat (and gain the bonuses for concealability) or non-armored camo suits.
Also entirely reasonable.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <05-07-12/1238:42>
Some do, some don't. It varies from weapon to weapon. Try supporting one that doesn't with your hand and you'll get some nasty burn if you fire much at all. A mistake most people only make once (and a good way to watch and weed out the stupid ones, they'll do it repeatedly).

John Basilone found out the hard way.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Dirtywork on <05-20-12/1811:15>
I only recently started playing SR again (I've been away since 1996  :'( ) but I'm going to bring back one of our old house rules. I call it the Lot in Life.

Mostly it is designed for players who are either new to Shadowrun and/or table top RPGs

Here's how it works.....
 
Your Lot in Life determines where you are in life just before we start our first Shadowrun session. It doesn't determine your backstory, race, species, or sex. It is simply a story telling tool that allows the player characters to mesh a little better into the world. An especially helpful tool for newer players.
 
The Lot in Life also allows me (the GM) to get you connected to other potential plot devices for use at any time during the campaign. If things start to slow down, or when you least expect it, something, or someone might come out of your past and turn what was supposed to be a simple B&E into a total Charlie Foxtrot.
 
Here is the Lot in Life list that players will select from.
 
1) Recently released convict tied to one of the Big 10 corps and very loyal to that corp. Family Missing
2) Last member of a gang recently wiped out by the Yakuza
3) Political Activist wanted by corporate security for acts of terrorism
4) Thrill seeker with a terminal illness
5) Unemployed and homeless because of a frame job by a corp
6) Average person. Family struggling to survive
7) Prostitute
8 ) Amnesiac with a connection to a Dragon
9) Used car salesman who sold a bad car to the wrong person: a vampire
10) Former member of a BlackOps team in the middle of a corporate cover up.
 
 You can keep your LiL a secret, or share it with the group. But eventually your Lot in Life WILL catch up with you.
 
To discover your LiL roll 1D10 or 2D6 (with re-roll on 12)

 You get what you get. Such is life. However, as with life, you are free to handle your situation as you see fit. It's all very generalized to give you the player all the customization options you need.

For example: If you roll 7 and get the Prostitute LiL it's up to you to decide how/why you became a prostitute, and how/why your character has opted to start Shadowrunning. You decide if you're a high class hooker or a 5 nuyen ho.

With each LiL there are pros and cons. With the Prostitute option you may find that you've got extra contacts you've made through your "work". On the other hand you may have also have a psychotic stalker who wants you all to him/herself.
 
To assist in customization all players will gain an additional 100BP to reflect their LiL. If you select the BlackOps LiL obviously that person will have some specialized skills coming in.

 You can embrace your past or run from it in an attempt to reinvent yourself. Your reasons to run the shadows are your own.
 
If you're not happy with the LiL you've selected you'll get a d6 number of chances to re-select.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <05-21-12/1150:32>
That does sound intresting plus will explain why the mage has a orgy/orgasim spell and cure illness.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Hermes on <06-01-12/1218:39>
Hmm.  House rules for Shadowrun.

You know, I have a friend that says you can't do this sort of thing to Shadowrun.  Yet, here it is, a thread with 28 pages of rules. I should smirk. :)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Henzington on <06-01-12/1411:50>
It varies greatly but at least with my friends it mainly is a gentlemen's agreement not to take certain qualities like Uncouth or Senstive System if you plan on getting no cyberware
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <06-01-12/1553:51>
Per a long discussion on DumpShock, my houseruled version of High Powered chambering (from War!):


High Powered Ammunition is not a separate type unto itself; many kinds of ammunition are available in high powered ("HP") variants. (Disallowed HP ammunition includes Stick-and-shock, Capsule, Gel, and Subsonic.)

Firearms must be modified to fire such rounds, and once modified can fire _only_ HP ammunition. Any firearm, including assault cannons, can be modified in this way. Modifying a weapon to fire High Powered ammunition costs 2 slots, has a threshold of 20, requires an armorer's shop, and costs as much as the original weapon (with an availability of 7R). This modification is incompatible with Extended Magazine and Increased Cylinder.

HP ammunition gains +1 damage and -1 armor piercing, in addition to the base values for that type of round. Price is multiplied by four, and availability increases by +8. When fired, all recoil is doubled before compensation. Additionally, HP ammunition is especially loud and has a large muzzle flash. Attempts to detect or pinpoint the firing of HP ammunition gain +3 dice for hearing tests, or +1 die for visual tests (these modifiers are cumulative with silencers / suppressors).

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <06-01-12/2220:48>
That reminds me of my High Power house rule. It's simple and doesn't change the actual High Power mechanics at all, but can still be useful.

Revolvers chambered for High Power ammunition can fire normal ammunition as well.

High Power changes the amount/type of powder (causing more pressure) and most likely the length of the brass (safety precaution like with the .357 mag/.38). The caliber should be the same making it a non-issue for revolvers.

For the non-firearm savy. A .357 magnum uses the same exact caliber as the .38. You can fire both .357 magnum rounds and .38 rounds from a .357 magnum because the only difference is that the .38 rounds create less pressure and are shorter. Automatic handguns can't really do this because the magazine/chambering areas are designed for a certain length of the brass and the .38 is shorter than what is intended to be loaded.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-05-12/1241:59>
Here's a house rule that I think is needed. In order to discourage implants in Awakened, ruling that the karma cost for increasing Magic would go off of what one's Magic would be without the implants.  As an example, buying a Magic of 5 and taking 2 Essence worth of implants would still require spending 30 karma to get back to Magic 4.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <06-05-12/1319:24>
Quote
Here's a house rule that I think is needed. In order to discourage implants in Awakened

Why do you think it's needed?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-05-12/1323:51>
Quote
Here's a house rule that I think is needed. In order to discourage implants in Awakened

Why do you think it's needed?

I just feel that put putting implants in Awakened (especially Adepts) goes against the feel of them. That being the use of magic instead of technology to improve their abilities. Making it more costly is far better than just saying that they can't take it at all.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <06-05-12/1359:02>
Shadworun has never been D&Desque in it's magic. You never have an either or situation really, it's a balancing game, and every single mage/adept should feel different.

The thing is, it already costs them more. You take a hit to your magic (say dropping from 4 to 3) and then raise it back again (from 3 to 4), you've effectively paid to be at four magic twice (40 karma, what it costs to go from 7 to 8).

Under you proposed rules, doing the same thing (assuming 2 points of essence loss) is going to cost them almost three times the normal amount (55 karma or what it would take to go from 10 to 11) to be at four.

Let's not forget that adepts already get karma hosed by their powers (having to pay for increases as though their power levels were natural skill/attribute levels). All in all, it's just adding an extra karma tax in effort to make every single awakened conform to your feel of awakened which seems very akin to the stereotypical monk/wizard feel. (D&D it's magic or armor, you seem to be replacing armor with cyber and just running with it)

While it's regrettable that the discrepancy between augmented adepts and pure adepts is so large, gaining power by any means necessary is a staple of professionals in just about any field. Theft and performance enhancing drugs are both extremely large today. Tacking on 60 years isn't going to change that. Sure some will be more close-minded due to other factors (religion, personal codes, political views, cultural views, monetary restrictions, medical issues, etc.), it doesn't mean that all of them have to be close minded to feel like an adept. It's not a class based system.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-05-12/1409:50>
Shadworun has never been D&Desque in it's magic. You never have an either or situation really, it's a balancing game, and every single mage/adept should feel different.

The thing is, it already costs them more. You take a hit to your magic (say dropping from 4 to 3) and then raise it back again (from 3 to 4), you've effectively paid to be at four magic twice (40 karma, what it costs to go from 7 to 8).

Under you proposed rules, doing the same thing (assuming 2 points of essence loss) is going to cost them almost three times the normal amount (55 karma or what it would take to go from 10 to 11) to be at four.

Let's not forget that adepts already get karma hosed by their powers (having to pay for increases as though their power levels were natural skill/attribute levels). All in all, it's just adding an extra karma tax in effort to make every single awakened conform to your feel of awakened which seems very akin to the stereotypical monk/wizard feel. (D&D it's magic or armor, you seem to be replacing armor with cyber and just running with it)

While it's regrettable that the discrepancy between augmented adepts and pure adepts is so large, gaining power by any means necessary is a staple of professionals in just about any field. Theft and performance enhancing drugs are both extremely large today. Tacking on 60 years isn't going to change that. Sure some will be more close-minded due to other factors (religion, personal codes, political views, cultural views, monetary restrictions, medical issues, etc.), it doesn't mean that all of them have to be close minded to feel like an adept. It's not a class based system.

Well, I do have some suggestion on that too, and that would be also cutting Improved Physical Attribute to half the current PP cost (and remove the 'doubling effect' after natural maximum), as well as some sort of reduction on some of the other useful but overpriced powers.

Combined, it would make pure adepts more desirable, while at the same time making the other possible--even if more expensive (which it should be).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <06-05-12/1428:40>
Quote
while at the same time making the other possible--even if more expensive (which it should be).
Why? This is what you haven't actually explained so far.

At the moment (especially if using gaes and way of the adept) pure, augmented, and burning out adepts are all viable both by feel and mechanics. All that making augmentation cost them more would do is flop the balance rather than fix anything.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-05-12/1436:59>
Quote
while at the same time making the other possible--even if more expensive (which it should be).
Why? This is what you haven't actually explained so far.

At the moment (especially if using gaes and way of the adept) pure, augmented, and burning out adepts are all viable both by feel and mechanics. All that making augmentation cost them more would do is flop the balance rather than fix anything.

The 'should be' is more personal preference, but the extra karma cost may be necessary to keep things from getting too out of hand with the second portion I talked about.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <06-05-12/1855:47>
The 'should be' is more personal preference, but the extra karma cost may be necessary to keep things from getting too out of hand with the second portion I talked about.

It's painfully obvious to anyone that's read what you have to say on the subject that you have a major hate-on for augmented magic users.

Arguing that Augmented adepts need to be penalized on their Magic because you don't like the idea of your food touching is like trying to get spinach banned from school cafeterias because you think it's disgusting. Some people like spinach, just like some people like the fact that Shadowrun offers the temptation of quick, easy power to Adepts at the low, low cost of part of their soul. Making the fruit less sweet cheapens the characterization.

Right now, a vanilla Adept has to answer several questions. First and foremost; why aren't they Augmented? Why did they turn away from the quick and easy power? What's their issue? What will they do if, for example, someone dangles some Delta Grate bioware in front of their nose?

Your way makes it just another character type. Oh, hey, I want to play a ninja-monk dude. Lets rock.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-06-12/0058:05>
The 'should be' is more personal preference, but the extra karma cost may be necessary to keep things from getting too out of hand with the second portion I talked about.

It's painfully obvious to anyone that's read what you have to say on the subject that you have a major hate-on for augmented magic users.

Arguing that Augmented adepts need to be penalized on their Magic because you don't like the idea of your food touching is like trying to get spinach banned from school cafeterias because you think it's disgusting. Some people like spinach, just like some people like the fact that Shadowrun offers the temptation of quick, easy power to Adepts at the low, low cost of part of their soul. Making the fruit less sweet cheapens the characterization.

Right now, a vanilla Adept has to answer several questions. First and foremost; why aren't they Augmented? Why did they turn away from the quick and easy power? What's their issue? What will they do if, for example, someone dangles some Delta Grate bioware in front of their nose?

Your way makes it just another character type. Oh, hey, I want to play a ninja-monk dude. Lets rock.

Did you not notice what the second portion was even though you emphasized that part of the sentence (halving IPA power and removing the 'doubling effect' that comes after a certain point)? After thinking about it, I realized that that increased cost may be necessary to keep things in line in case someone tries 'double dipping' with the implants and that with its lowered cost.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <06-06-12/0134:10>
Even at .375 PP/level, they'd still be limited by their augmented max, and would be better off in most cases (everything but body) taking the normal augmentations (Effectively .3 or .2 PPs per level considering the magic you'd lose).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-06-12/0150:03>
Even at .375 PP/level, they'd still be limited by their augmented max, and would be better off in most cases (everything but body) taking the normal augmentations (Effectively .3 or .2 PPs per level considering the magic you'd lose).

Hmm...maybe reducing to .25 per level (had forgotten it was .75 and not .5).  Maybe I should test that cost (without the extra doubling) next time I start a game. You've got me convinced on not going with the increased cost to raise it though.

Anyone care to shoot out some suggestions on some of those other criminally overpriced powers (kinda figure the same PP cost for the IP enhancer as for WR or MBW essence would work).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <06-06-12/0247:50>
Straight Attributes are really the only place I see adepts get hit hard compared to mundane counterparts. Many adepts may still choose to get Synaptic Boosters (2 pts. of magic loss for 4 IPs vs. 4 power points is a no brainer), but if they take a gaes (to remain unaugmented is a no brainer again if you're going to be unaugmented) that lowers it to only 3. If you have a nifty way you can discount it to be 2 ppts. Synaptic Boosters still come out ahead (you have .5 essence to play with) but its a much closer race.

All in all, it's not a huge issue, because adepts can do a lot of things that mundanes can only wish they had.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <06-06-12/0332:38>
Anyone care to shoot out some suggestions on some of those other criminally overpriced powers (kinda figure the same PP cost for the IP enhancer as for WR or MBW essence would work).

Dropping PP prices to make the powers more competitive is something I can get behind, don't get me wrong there. ;)

Personally, though, since Karma is generally much more precious and limited than Nuyen, I recommend exactly matching the PP cost of IPA and Imp.Reflex to the equivalent Bioware's Essence cost. That's 0.2 PP/rank for IPA and 0.5/1.0/1.5 PP for IR.

Setting it up like that is going to make it so that going Augmented just means you get some unique tools, like Platelet Factories, at the cost of weakening your other tools, like Combat Reflexes. That makes the choice less of a no-brainer and more something to be carefully weighed and considered.

With IPA suddenly quite attractive enough to splash it on all your Attributes, and the IP boosters competitive as well, that means vanilla Adepts will be suddenly have to make some choices about what they get... chief among them, of course, whether to front-load the stats now and skimp on the other powers, or buy their "utility" powers and cap their stats after they Initiate and buy up their Magic.

At that point, "Geek the Adept" will probably actually make it onto the priority list, along with the Mage, the Main Battle Troll, and the Ork Machinegunner.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <06-06-12/0601:34>
One that I've used before is that a mage can use a held action to actively counterspell any spell being cast in his line of sight that he can perceive (makes the noticing magic check or is astrally perceiving and has beaten the other mages masking).

I've also, in the past, run counterspelling as rolled by the mage (rather than the resister) and subtracts before comparing to the resister/s. If the counterspell gets more hits, the spell flat out fails. It's not a huge difference, but it does make a difference with AoE spells, and who spends edge for counterspell. It allows for an easier non-contradictory counterspelling when non-living items are targeted and it reflects the fact that counterspelling is targeting the spell rather than putting up a mana bubble.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-06-12/1239:17>
Anyone care to shoot out some suggestions on some of those other criminally overpriced powers (kinda figure the same PP cost for the IP enhancer as for WR or MBW essence would work).

Dropping PP prices to make the powers more competitive is something I can get behind, don't get me wrong there. ;)

Personally, though, since Karma is generally much more precious and limited than Nuyen, I recommend exactly matching the PP cost of IPA and Imp.Reflex to the equivalent Bioware's Essence cost. That's 0.2 PP/rank for IPA and 0.5/1.0/1.5 PP for IR.

Setting it up like that is going to make it so that going Augmented just means you get some unique tools, like Platelet Factories, at the cost of weakening your other tools, like Combat Reflexes. That makes the choice less of a no-brainer and more something to be carefully weighed and considered.

With IPA suddenly quite attractive enough to splash it on all your Attributes, and the IP boosters competitive as well, that means vanilla Adepts will be suddenly have to make some choices about what they get... chief among them, of course, whether to front-load the stats now and skimp on the other powers, or buy their "utility" powers and cap their stats after they Initiate and buy up their Magic.

At that point, "Geek the Adept" will probably actually make it onto the priority list, along with the Mage, the Main Battle Troll, and the Ork Machinegunner.

I would probably stick with lowering down to the WR or MBW Essence costs still since it would make the power equivalent to the more commonly taken IP boost implants (due to their cost, as Synaptic Booster is ridiculously expensive).  While .25 would be more expensive for the IPA than the bioware equivalents' Essence costs, taking a Way could bring down to about equal if not a bit less--this would also make IR more attractive than WR or MBW.

One that I've used before is that a mage can use a held action to actively counterspell any spell being cast in his line of sight that he can perceive (makes the noticing magic check or is astrally perceiving and has beaten the other mages masking).

I've also, in the past, run counterspelling as rolled by the mage (rather than the resister) and subtracts before comparing to the resister/s. If the counterspell gets more hits, the spell flat out fails. It's not a huge difference, but it does make a difference with AoE spells, and who spends edge for counterspell. It allows for an easier non-contradictory counterspelling when non-living items are targeted and it reflects the fact that counterspelling is targeting the spell rather than putting up a mana bubble.

I kinda like this, but only if you're talking about entire Counterspelling + Magic pool rather than just the skill's dice.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crash_00 on <06-06-12/1359:59>
For the held action counterspelling (or defensive counterspelling as I called it), it was full Magic + Counterspelling, but they were spending their action on it. I felt it added a more defensive option to mages than "Nuke the enemy mage before he nukes us". I also let them split counterspelling (just like casting multiple spells) by reserving part of their dice pool, but it was lost on their next action if not used.

For the other, it was mainly to keep who is rolling the counterspelling dice the same always. I didn't like other players rolling the counterspell dice (felt clunky to me). The mage only rolled the counterspell dice (just like the target would be doing).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: voydangel on <06-11-12/0033:37>
A house ruleset I used to use regarding reduced prices of Adept Powers was the following:

   Berserk: Characters also ignores dice pool modifiers from stun damage for duration of effect.
   Improved Physical Attribute: new base cost = 0.5 per level.
   Reduce the power point cost of the following powers by half: analytics, animal empathy, blind fighting, cloak, counterstrike, distance strike, elemental resistance, facial sculpt, free-fall, gliding, great leap, heightened concentration, improved sense, indomitable will, iron gut, iron lungs, iron will, living focus, magic sense, melanin control, metabolic control, motion sense, multi tasking, natural immunity, nimble fingers, piercing senses, power swimming, rapid healing, rooting, spell resistance, supernatural toughness, temperature tolerance, traceless walk & wall running.

I found that this made a lot of these often unused powers much more desirable and people would take them far more often, and I don't recall a single time when it unbalanced game play. If anything I sometimes still felt like giving the powers a boost for role playing and characterization. Many if not most powers are overpriced PP wise when compared to their cyber/bio equivalents. IMO.

I currently use very few to zero house rules solely due to the fact that now days I mostly run beginners games at a local comic shop (on their 'get new people into gaming' night), and because of that I try to stay as vanilla as possible in order to keep things simple for the new players.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Bastwolf on <06-15-12/1919:57>
HOUSE RULE:
If your game is based heavily off of background stories, create two separate categories of Positive and Negative qualities. One category is for qualities that your character has for his personality and the other is offered for characters who want to use background qualities (ex. Escaped Clone, Evil Twin, etc.)

Example:

Positive Qualities:
PersonalityBackground
AptitudeEscaped Clone
CodeslingerErased
Perceptive
Sense of Direction
Analytical Mind
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <06-16-12/0156:28>

I found that this made a lot of these often unused powers much more desirable and people would take them far more often, and I don't recall a single time when it unbalanced game play. If anything I sometimes still felt like giving the powers a boost for role playing and characterization. Many if not most powers are overpriced PP wise when compared to their cyber/bio equivalents. IMO.

i can definitely see using this in my games, if only from the fact that samurai and adepts are (and should be) nearly equal and a deadly threat to all that cross them.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xzylvador on <06-26-12/1122:51>
Here's a house rule that I think is needed. In order to discourage implants in Awakened, ruling that the karma cost for increasing Magic would go off of what one's Magic would be without the implants.  As an example, buying a Magic of 5 and taking 2 Essence worth of implants would still require spending 30 karma to get back to Magic 4.

Without going into the discussion on whether or not awakened should get implants:
Isn't this already the case in RAW?
I always figured that an Adept that buys 5 magic at chargen and loses a point of essense to implants, still has a 'Base Magic' of 5, but has a Modified Value of 4 Magic ( Magic 5(4) ).
The karma cost of increasing an attribute always looks at its Base, not at its modified value. So he would need to spend karma to raise his Base Magic to 6. That attribute then gets recalculated with Essense to a Modified Value of 5.
I thought this was always the case. It is for Sams with Agi 5(8) thanks to Muscle Toner 3. To raise his agility, he spends karma to raise his Agi from 5 to 6, giving him a modified score of 6(9). He doesn't need to buy 9 Agi...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <06-26-12/1336:46>
Here's a house rule that I think is needed. In order to discourage implants in Awakened, ruling that the karma cost for increasing Magic would go off of what one's Magic would be without the implants.  As an example, buying a Magic of 5 and taking 2 Essence worth of implants would still require spending 30 karma to get back to Magic 4.

Without going into the discussion on whether or not awakened should get implants:
Isn't this already the case in RAW?
I always figured that an Adept that buys 5 magic at chargen and loses a point of essense to implants, still has a 'Base Magic' of 5, but has a Modified Value of 4 Magic ( Magic 5(4) ).

Nope. It's not a modification that you could remove by getting rid of the 'ware and healing the Essence Hole. The loss of Essence actually burns off one of your points of Magic. It's not 5(4), it's just straight up 4.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xzylvador on <06-26-12/1412:12>
Here's a house rule that I think is needed. In order to discourage implants in Awakened, ruling that the karma cost for increasing Magic would go off of what one's Magic would be without the implants.  As an example, buying a Magic of 5 and taking 2 Essence worth of implants would still require spending 30 karma to get back to Magic 4.

Without going into the discussion on whether or not awakened should get implants:
Isn't this already the case in RAW?
I always figured that an Adept that buys 5 magic at chargen and loses a point of essense to implants, still has a 'Base Magic' of 5, but has a Modified Value of 4 Magic ( Magic 5(4) ).

Nope. It's not a modification that you could remove by getting rid of the 'ware and healing the Essence Hole. The loss of Essence actually burns off one of your points of Magic. It's not 5(4), it's just straight up 4.
Hmm, always did that wrong then.
Well, the houserule seems to make a lot of sense and fits with all the other rules for increasing Attributes modified by Augmentation.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <06-26-12/1432:39>
Well, the houserule seems to make a lot of sense and fits with all the other rules for increasing Attributes modified by Augmentation.
... what rules?

If i have Agility 5 and 2 levels of Muscle Toner, giving me a final Agility 5 (7) ... raising that by one point to 6 (8) costs the same as an unaugmented Agility 5 being raised to Agility 6.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xzylvador on <06-26-12/1646:25>
Yes, you look at the base attribute without its altered value from the implant: You spend 5x6, not 5x(8).
I thought it was the same for magic: to raise 5(3) --two magic lost to implant essense loss--, you pay to raise the 5 to 6, not to raise (3) to (4).
But apparently that's not RAW, but a houserule.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <06-26-12/1655:09>
Yes, you look at the base attribute without its altered value from the implant: You spend 5x6, not 5x( 8 ).
I thought it was the same for magic: to raise 5(3) --two magic lost to implant essense loss--, you pay to raise the 5 to 6, not to raise (3) to (4).
But apparently that's not RAW, but a houserule.

Except, again, it's not 5(3), it's just 3.

If you have Muscle Toner 4 for Agility 3(7) and rip the muscle toner out, you go instantly back to Agility 3, that's why you pay for 3 -> 4, not 7 -> 8.

However, if you were an Adept with Magic 6 before you got 2 points of Bioware in, dropping you to 4.00 Essence and Magic 4, then you decide to remove the Bioware and paid 475000 for 20 months of Revitalization therapy to close the Essence Hole and bring you back up to 6.00 Essence, you remain at Magic 4 unless you buy it back up with Karma. That's why buying it back up costs you 4 -> 5, not 6 -> 7

The same exact situation applies to getting hit by the Energy Drain power and losing Essence or Magic, or essence lost to Burnout levels of Addiction, HMMVV, and anything else that drops your Essence total. The points are gone for good. Period. End of story. No returns, no exchanges, no appeals.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xzylvador on <06-26-12/1808:54>
Am I actually being smitten for something I admitted from the start I misunderstood and got wrong in the past?
Seriously, that's pretty sad.
I asked for a clarification of something I misunderstood and am grateful that it was explained to me...
Why are you even trying to argue about this? I never claimed that what you say isn't so.
But this is the House Rules thread, right? I mean, I don't think I need to ask permission to mention that I like a houserule someone else posted here...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <06-26-12/1811:45>
If you're getting Smites, it's not from me.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <06-26-12/1924:38>
If you're getting Smites, it's not from me.

Nor me. I may be grumpy, but I'm not gonna smite someone for (what I perceived as) a persisting misunderstanding.

That said, I was under the incorrect impression that you, Xzylvador, still thought RAW was "5(3)", which is what I was trying to correct. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: thinklibertarian on <07-03-12/1610:56>
I use these two house rules.  I'm curious what you think of them.

Note that I only have the core rulebook, so these are based on just that book.

* On page 161, under Armor and Encumbrance, ignore the first line If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies.  Instead, you can stack armor, up to a maximum of Body X 2, counting the higher of the Ballistic or Impact rating against that limit.

Ive categorized the armors into three categories: Inner, Middle, and Outer Layers.  You can only stack armors from two different layers.

   Inner Layers: Actioneer Business Clothes, Armor Clothing, Armor Vest
   Middle Layers: Armor Jacket, Leather Jacket, Urban Explorer Jumpsuit
   Outer Layers: Camouflage Suit, Chameleon Suit, Full Body Armor, Leather Duster, Lined Coat, all Helmets, all Shields

   A Leather Duster is a full length leather coat.  It has B2/I2, Avail -, and costs 400.

   Clothing, since its B0/I0, can be any layer you want, and stacks with everything (including itself). The Feedback Clothing upgrade can only be applied to the Inner Layer, and the Shock Frills armor modification to the Outer Layer.  Armor modification ratings do not stack, use the highest rating per mod.

   For example: My character has Body 4, so I can stack a maximum of 8 armor (Ballistic or Impact).  I choose an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (B6/I6), over which I wear a Leather Duster (B2/I2) for a total of B8/I8.  I suffer no encumbrance penalty.

   During a run with my Body 4 hero, I am captured and stripped of my armor.  When I break out, I acquire Armor Clothing (B4/I0), and an Armored Jacket (B8/I6).  That would normally be B12/I6, but it only counts as B8/I6. I suffer encumbrance penalties as if the rating was still 12.  I exceed my (Body X 2) by 4 points, so I get a -2 encumbrance penalty to Agility and Reaction (and derived stats like Initiative).

* For the techies out there, I made this change: You can run a number of programs concurrently equal to your System rating.  For every two programs (or fraction thereof) running over System capacity, Response is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. For example: if you have System 4/Response 4, running up to 4 programs is no problem, running 5 or 6 drops response to 3, 7 or 8 = Response 2, 9 or 10 = Response 1.

Why? 
The armor stacking is because it's hard to be a hero out there, and since I don't allow the form fitting armor or PPP system, I thought it would help. 
As for the System/Response rule, it gives a slight advantage to the hacker, and I think the math is easier.

Thanks
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <07-03-12/1828:42>
I use these two house rules.  I'm curious what you think of them.

Note that I only have the core rulebook, so these are based on just that book.

* On page 161, under Armor and Encumbrance, ignore the first line If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies.  Instead, you can stack armor, up to a maximum of Body X 2, counting the higher of the Ballistic or Impact rating against that limit.
..... oooooooh, that is raising some "open to abuse" orange flags for me, in such a big way.  Mainly by super-high-body Orks and Trolls.

Quote
Ive categorized the armors into three categories: Inner, Middle, and Outer Layers.  You can only stack armors from two different layers.

   Inner Layers: Actioneer Business Clothes, Armor Clothing, Armor Vest
   Middle Layers: Armor Jacket, Leather Jacket, Urban Explorer Jumpsuit
   Outer Layers: Camouflage Suit, Chameleon Suit, Full Body Armor, Leather Duster, Lined Coat, all Helmets, all Shields

Where would you put the +2/+1 "Ballistic Mask" (a la Army of Two) ...?  Can it be combined with a Helmet?  (after all, not all helmets include faceplates/masks ...).

Where would you put Chain Mail (2/7, generally presented as a shirt / "hauberk") ...?

How about Padded Leather (2/5) ...?

Quote
   For example: My character has Body 4, so I can stack a maximum of 10 armor (Ballistic or Impact).
  Shouldn't that be a maximum of 8?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: thinklibertarian on <07-03-12/2227:44>
I've updated the original post  to say 8 instead of 10.  Thanks for pointing that out.

As for the abuse by high-body orks and trolls, I'm not too worried.  New characters can't buy full body armor (availability 14R).  The most they could get, AFAICT, is an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (6/6) over an Armor Jacket (8/6), totaling 14/12.   Assuming a full Body 10 Troll, she would roll 24 dice to soak ballistic damage and would average 8 hits, which negates most small arms fire.  The fact that the shot would have to do over 14 points of damage to do physical harm instead of stun is ok too, since the stun track is usually a faster way to take out a high-body character.

Other tactics could include taking a called shot to hit the leg (no Armor Jacket), or have a mage use Mana combat spells like Stunball, or use an AK-97 (6 DV) to do a full burst (+9 DV) to do a base 15 + net hits damage.

As for the armor types you mention, they are not in the core rulebook, so I have not thought of them.  I only have the core book.  But, off the top of my head, the ballistic mask sounds like a helmet accessory, so it would be Outer Layer, and chainmail and padded leather are historically worn over padded clothing, so I would classify them as Middle Layer.

Thanks for the comments.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <07-03-12/2252:54>
As for the abuse by high-body orks and trolls, I'm not too worried.  New characters can't buy full body armor (availability 14R).  The most they could get, AFAICT, is an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (6/6) over an Armor Jacket (8/6), totaling 14/12.
  Perhaps not with the sources you've got to hand.

  But just off the top of my head?  Armor Jacket with Gel Packs (9/7) ... and over that, Riot control Armor with gel packs (7/10).  That's 16/17 right there.  Add a Riot Control Helmet (+1/+2) and a Riot shield (+6/+2), and you're looking at 23/21 armor.

Quote
   Assuming a full Body 10 Troll,
  Exceptional Attribute: Body;  Metagenic Improvement (Body); Genetic Optimisation (Body); Suprathyroid Gland.  That's a Body of 14, enough to wear that 23/21 armor comfortably.

Quote
[...] she would roll 24 dice to soak ballistic damage [...]
  14 Body, and 24/21 worn armor ... +1/+1 from trollish Dermal Deposits, +3/+3 from Orthoskin 3.  Let's add in Ceramic Bone Lacing, for +2 body and +0/+2 armor.

  Net result?  44 dice with Ballistic armor, 43 dice with Impact.

Quote
Other tactics could include taking a called shot to hit the leg (no Armor Jacket), [...]
  Even in your less-twinked example?  That'd be -8 to the attacker's die pool (to bypass the single piece).  The attacker takes a straight -1 penalty per point of armor bypassed.  Shadowrun, remember, is a very abstracted system; it doesn't get into the nitty-gritty of precise hit-versus-armor-locations.

Quote
As for the armor types you mention, they are not in the core rulebook, so I have not thought of them.
  I hadn't thought you did.  That's why I brought them up.  It's always best to have your house rules set up so that they can accommodate existing books, even if you don't have them.

Quote
But, off the top of my head, the ballistic mask sounds like a helmet accessory, so it would be Outer Layer, [...]
  It's a helmet alternative, actually - but it's nature is such that it can conceivable be worn in addition to a helmet.  RAW, that'd mean the character got +2/+2 armor, for 3/3 encumbrance.

^_^

Quote
Thanks for the comments.
Not a problem.  I do think your houserule is trying to do what shouldn't be done, though (allow for vastly-inflated armor ratings).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: thinklibertarian on <07-04-12/2041:38>
I re-read the Called Shot section.  I must have been mixing up my game systems again.  I thought Shadowrun had a set modifier to hit a certain body part.  (I blame GURPS.)  Still, -8 to bypass just the Armor Jacket is easier to swallow than -14 to bypass all of the armor.  I think my rules make it a more viable tactic.

"It's always best to have your house rules set up so that they can accommodate existing books, even if you don't have them."

I'm not sure that's possible, but I take your point.  If I do allow the other books, then the armor house rule will have to change or go back to the book's version.  But I will save that can-of-worms for later.

That's why I submitted these rules for commentary: I learn something with each reply.

Thanks
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <07-05-12/2017:06>
"It's always best to have your house rules set up so that they can accommodate existing books, even if you don't have them."

I'm not sure that's possible, but I take your point. 

I'm pretty sure it's not. 

Shame on Pax for being silly.  Not all GMs know all the rules in all of the existing books without reading them  :P
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <07-05-12/2212:01>
Shame on Pax for being silly.  Not all GMs know all the rules in all of the existing books without reading them  :P
.... which is why we come here to discuss the rules, isn't it?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <07-07-12/0053:15>
Shame on Pax for being silly.  Not all GMs know all the rules in all of the existing books without reading them  :P
.... which is why we come here to discuss the rules, isn't it?

That's why "we" come here to discuss the rules, but not every GM knows about, or cares to us, BBSs for info like this, so lumping all those GMs together is an unfair shot at the family goodies.  :P
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <07-07-12/0344:38>
... oversensitive, much?  Yeesh, I think I struck a nerve somewhere. ::)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: WSN0W on <07-10-12/2124:42>
I'm fond of contacts. They are one of the most valuable thing in the games I run and play in. We do a lot of 'legacy' games (building on previous campaigns, especially from earlier editions so older retired PC's and prominent NPCs return for cameos/as contacts.)

While giving the Cha*X (or whatever variation presented here) could encourage a high Cha character (Which I'm in favor of), what I tend to do is group contacts. Not the 'Group as a contact' but a contact that every PC has. Usually the Fixer, but not always.

I find a universal contact helps keep the party invested and also tends to help round out their little black books as people don't have to take the obligitory fixer/street doc/etc but can actually go 'you know, my Hacker can know a gang leader from where he grew up' or some other fluff, character building contact that isn't as 'needed for their profession.'
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: TheVanguard on <07-11-12/1546:26>
The malware rules presented in Unwired are not really to my liking. I find them to be too clunky and rather bland. Instead, I've tried to come up with a system that makes the little buggers more colorful and actually have an impact on gameplay.


Alternative Malware rules

As the computer virus is modeled after the concept of the biological virus, malware basically uses the rules for Diseases (Augmentation pg. 129) except where noted otherwise. They infect nodes as a whole, influencing their behavior on a fundamental level.

Note: Disregard the Anti-Virus program option for these rules and replace the Purge program with Anti-Virus, which protects against infection and combats active viruses.

Malware Attributes

Vector
Malicious programs have different ways to infect other systems. The most common types encountered are Fire-and-Forget, Connection and Download.
Fire-and-Forget malware must be triggered directly in order to become active. The hacker has to load it as an active program and send it with a Complex Action against the target.
Connection type malware is proactive and automatically tries to infect any node that establishes a connection to the infected system.
Download malware hides itself in the code of other files and only becomes active when the host data is downloaded and executed on another system.

Speed
This is the amount of time that needs to pass between infection of a system and the first effect resistance test. Additionally, the virus becomes active again after the same time period has elapsed. All computer malware count as being incurable for the purpose of determining the maximum life span. The power will accumulate always until the virus is purged from the system.

Penetration
Some codes are so sophisticated that they can undermine the most common defenses employed against them. Reduce the effective rating of the Anti-Virus program by the Penetration rating.

Power
A malware's Power determines if and how powerful it can effect a system. See Effects below for details.

Nature
Malware either operates through a Slow Virus approach, Brute Force methods or acts as a Trojan.
A Slow Virus needs to succeed on an extended test with Power x2 (target's Firewall, 1 Minute) in order to infect a system. If successful, the victim gets a free Firewall + Anti-Virus (Malware's Power) test to notice the infection. The target can escape the danger by unsubscribing from the infected node before the test is successful. A Fire-and-Forget Slow Virus deletes itself after losing contact with the intended target.
Brute Force types make the same test, but their time interval is 1 Combat Round. The target gets a free Firewall + Anti-Virus (Malware's Power) test to notice the threat after each attempt.
Trojans automatically infect any system on which they are executed. Note that this Nature also applies to files downloaded from systems infected with Fire-and-Forget and Connection type malware.

Effect
This is what a malware will actually do to an infected systems. Some effects are merely annoying, others may be downright lethal. Systems resist the Power with Firewall + Anti-Virus. Re-calculate and apply the results after each Speed time interval.

Altered Appearance
The malware tries to override sculpetd imagery settings, changing any Icon run on the infected system according to its predefined programming as long as its Power is not reduced to 0. This can have pretty bizarre results if original iconography and desired effects differ strongly.

Breadcrumb Trail
A system infected with this kind of malware constantly sends out small data packages to a predefined address that contain information about the connections established with other nodes. The people on the receiving end get the accumulated Power as a bonus to all Trace actions against the infected system. The malware leaves a data trail though that may itself be traced at -2.

Crash Connection
Whenever this Malware becomes active, it tries to crash the system's connections to other nodes. One subscription is unsubscribed for every point of accumulated Power that exceeds the System rating. The malware's programmer may specify that only specific access IDs will be disconnected, or set a list of priorities for which connections will be terminated first.

Delete Program
This nasty virus tries to delete key files of programs currently running on the system. If its accumulated Power exceeds the System rating, one program becomes unresponsive and cannot be used anymore (does not add any dice to tests). This may be chosen at random or according to a predefined list of priorities.

Freeze
Causing random glitches and bandwidth problem, this code may slow infected systems down to a crawl. It reduces Matrix Initiative by its accumulated Power. If reduced to 0, the node is completely unresponsive.

Icon Damage
The malware tries to disrupt Matrix presence by injecting faulty code into Personas. All active Personas running on the infected system must resist (accumulated Power) DV Matrix damage with  System + Armor when the malware becomes active.

Information Distortion
Malware of this type has been created to alter information in a specific way. It may be used as a Spam program to insert advertising into data or to spread messages and disinformation. When executing a Data Search, it reduces the number of 1s needed for a glitch by its accumulated Power (minimum 1). If a glitch occurs, the result has been altered in a way determined by the malware's programming. Depending on the creator's intend, this may only apply to Data Searches for certain topics.

Leech
These viruses divert system resources to another node, increasing their capabilities at a cost to their host. If the accumulated Power exceeds the System rating, the infected node's Response is effectively reduced by 1. The receiving system treats its Response as being one point higher for the purpose of calculating the Processor Limit. This creates a data trail that may be traced to its destination.
 
Physical Damage
This dangerous virus creates a lethal biofeedback just like the Black Hammer program. The DV is equal to the accumulated Power. It is able to jam connections open like Black IC, using accumulated Power x2 for the test.

Psychotropic
Using subliminal Simsense biofeedback, this malware is able to recondition a person's mind to new forms of thought and behavior. Make an opposed test with the target's Willpower + Biofeedback Filter against a dice pool equal to the accumulated Power when the Malware becomes active. A user must be connected via hot or cold Sim in order to be affected. If the malware wins, the target gains a Negative Quality as determined by the programmer.

Reroute
Whenever the malware becomes active, it opens a connection to a specific Access ID as long as its Power isn't reduced to 0. This might be just an online shop looking for new customers, but could also be a trap node full of other viruses.

Resource Hog
Once active, this virus redirects system resources to itself, hampering its host's performance. When calculating the Processor Limit, increase the number of active programs by the accumulated Power.

Stun Damage
This effect is identical to Physical Damage, except that it causes stun damage instead.
 
Undermine
Malware of this type integrates itself into the host system's firewall, creating openings that may be exploited for easy access. If the accumulated Power exceeds the Firewall rating, an Exploit is created.


Viruses and Malware

Buzz
Vector: Connection
Speed: 1 day
Penetration: 0
Power: 4
Nature: Slow Virus
Effect: Psychotropic (BTL addiction), Reroute
The Choson Seolpa Ring's tool for customer acquisition has become a street legend in its own right, a boogeyman corp PR likes to bring up when they warn their employees about accessing external nodes. It does not only addict its victims to BTLs but also opens connections to Choson BTL distribution nodes where they can indulge their new cravings right away.

Drain 01
Vector: Fire-and-Forget
Speed: 1 day
Penetration: -1
Power: 2
Nature: Brute Force
Effect: Leech
This open-source-project is popular with hacker gangs that like to get a little boost at the expense of people who are too dumb to get some protection for their commlinks. Over the years countless up-and-coming hacker kids have profited from the little edge it provides.

Erika Adserver-3
Vector: Download
Speed: 1 hour
Penetration: 0
Power: 3
Nature: Trojan
Effect: Information Distortion
Neonet sells this spam program still under the Erika label to other companies, who hide it in demo files and freebies. It is designed to insert ad messages in other downloads, preferably those from the competition. Cracked versions are very popular with Policlubs and e-activists, who use it to spread their own propaganda.

LSMD Fox Hunt
Vector: Download
Speed: 10 minutes
Penetration: -4
Power: 4
Nature: Trojan
Effect: Breadcrumb Trail
Lone Star's Matrix Division created the Fox Hunt to tag money transactions in ransom or extortion cases. It was designed in cooperation with the leading providers of anti-virus software and can subvert most commercially available protection with ease. Better spend your money while you still can.

MCT Active Competition
Vector: Connection
Speed: 1 day
Penetration: 0
Power: 3
Nature: Slow Virus
Effect: Resource Hog, Information Distortion
Mitsuhama's aggressive advertising campaign strategy gave birth to this very annoying piece of malware. It subverts the integrity of a system and causes it to slow down remarkably. If the user looks online for information about this problem, it feeds him false reports that claim that this would be a well-known bug of his OS, but the manufacturer shows no interest in patching it up. Unlike, you know, MCT who always think of their customers first yada yada...
Systems running a Mitsuhama-brand OS do not suffer from these problems for obvious reasons, but may still act as a carrier.

Neon Acid
Vector: Fire-and-Forget
Speed: Immediately
Penetration: -1
Power: 3
Nature: Brute Force
Effect: Alter Appearance, Icon Damage, Delete Program (random)
This simple yet effective combat virus is favored by Matrix thrill gangs for virtual drive-by attacks. It simulates the effects of real acid by marring the victim's icon, causing damage to it and deleting programs from his memory.

0A-SyS @ccess@ll@reas
Vector: Connection
Speed: 1 hour
Penetration: 0
Power: 3
Nature: Slow Virus
Effect: Undermine
Triple-A was created by the neo-anarchistic hacker collective 0A-SyS as a means to further the free flow of information. They use it mostly to subvert the defenses of commercial libraries and private virtual schools, but its unpredictable spread pattern means that no one is really safe from it and that's just the way the info-anarchists like it.

The Grey Plague
Vector: Connection
Speed: 1 minute
Penetration: 0
Power: 4
Nature: Brute Force
Effect: Altered Appearance, Delete Program (random), Icon Damage
No one knows for sure who created this virus, and after the appearance of The Black Plague (see below) it has become quite unlikely that anyone will make the claim. It spread like a wildfire some time ago and even forced the Grid Overwatch Division to step in. Persona icons in infected systems look like they would rot away and rapidly degrade until they crash. Luckily all up-to-date virus protection programs are well equipped to defend against it, but mutated versions crop up from time to time.

The Black Plague
Vector: Connection
Speed: 1 minute
Penetration: -2
Power: 4
Nature: Brute Force
Effect: Altered Appearance, Delete Program (random), Physical Damage
The origins of the Black Plague are just as mysterious as its grey predecessor. It suddenly appeared some time after GOD managed to contain the Grey Plague outbreak and quickly proved to be even more dangerous. Maybe the Grey Plague was just a prototype that was perfected later, or the intelligent code of the virus created a more advanced version as a reaction to GOD's attack. Technomancers have found hints of dissonant code in its structure, what further complicates the matter. The Black Plague generates a barrage of random noise signals of incredible intensity that may reach lethal levels, endangering every user in an infected system.

ZYX-Web
Vector: Fire-and-Forget
Speed: Immediately
Penetration: 0
Power: 5
Nature: Brute Force
Effect: Altered Appearance, Freeze, Resource Hog
The original ZYX-Web was designed by the infamous decker Widow in the last matrix age. It is not known who has created a remake for the wireless matrix, as Widow presumably died during the Crash 2.0. The new version seems to be just as good as the original, however. The malware traps the victim's persona in slim strands of moonlight, restricting his movement up to total helplessness.

(So how about creating a seperate sub-forum for house rules?)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <07-19-12/0905:13>
Hello all, thought I'd come here and share a few odds and ends I've thought up while looking through the books~

New Bioware
Orthoskin Upgrade
      name                essence               cost
      Hobbit Feet ----------0.1----------------5,000
This new othoskin upgrade is very popular among meta-humans and sapient para-critters who, either through size or unusual anatomy (such as the many SURGE sufferers with 'Satyr Legs').  Hobbit feet encompass several small tweaks to the bottoms of the feet, the end result being the the character is treated as though they were wearing good shoes, even though they are barefoot.  The armor rating of the foot soles is increased by +2/+2, the nerve endings are altered to dull pain, and localized application of a dragonskin variant to reduce problems from walking on surfaces like hot pavement.


New Metagenetic Qualities
Positive Qualities
     Pads   (5 BP)
Characters with this quality have developed pads on their feet like those of a dog or wolf.  This quality mimics the effects of the Hobbit Feet orthoskin upgrade, and does not stack with it.

Negative Qualities
     Anthropomorphic Bestial Skull   (5BP)
The character's head has altered shape (possibly radically) to take on a more animal-like appearance, usually with a snout, and ears on top of their head.  This Quality incompatible with the Cephalopoidal Skull quality.
This quality may inflict social modifiers as outlined in the 'Freaks' sidebar of Runner's Companion.

New Magical Tradition
Helenistic Tradition
Materialization
COMBAT: Guardian
DETECTION: Beast
HEALTH: Water
ILLUSION: Man
MANIPULATION: Guidance
DRAIN: WILL + INT

Ancient cultures, especially those around the Mediterranean, did not exist in a vacuum; they traded, talked, and exchanged ideas (and, of course, forced their ideas on each other from time to time).  The Hellenistic tradition is a re-interpretation of this smattering of Greek, Turkish, Egyptian, and Near-Eastern ideas.





That's all I've got for now.  Hope at least one of these piques someone's interest~
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: TheVanguard on <07-19-12/1233:07>
I really like your Helenistic tradition. Having Guardian as combat type fits the heroic daimon defenders of the Polis, while Beast for detection evokes the notion of augury by reading an animal's entrails or the flight of birds. Guidance for manipulation can reflect the gods' meddling in the affairs of mortals, and Man is the great deceiver. Water for health is in line with the theory of the humors. Yes, looks really solid to me.

However, I've just got a minor nitpick regarding your Anthropomorphic Skull. "Anthropomorphic" means "human-like". I think Bestiamorphic is what you're going for here.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <07-19-12/1405:58>
I really like your Helenistic tradition. Having Guardian as combat type fits the heroic daimon defenders of the Polis, while Beast for detection evokes the notion of augury by reading an animal's entrails or the flight of birds. Guidance for manipulation can reflect the gods' meddling in the affairs of mortals, and Man is the great deceiver. Water for health is in line with the theory of the humors. Yes, looks really solid to me.
Thanks.  The water as healing also invokes water as a 'life giver', whether the Nile, Tigris, Euphrates, or even the Mediterranean itself, water WAS life in the ancient world.  Also, using a beast spirit to track or 'hunt' something just seemed like a such an obvious natural fit.

However, I've just got a minor nitpick regarding your Anthropomorphic Skull. "Anthropomorphic" means "human-like". I think Bestiamorphic is what you're going for here.
Yeah, went in the wrong direction with the adjective there.  I'll go up and give it an edit~
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <07-19-12/1549:16>
Figures I'd forget one of my best ideas....
New Focus
Mystic Focus
Availability: (4 x Force)R
Cost: 15,000 x Force
This focus is only of use to Mystic Adepts.  It allows them to use use up to 'share' up to their (Force) magic attribute reserved for their adept powers on their magician skills.
For example, a Mystic Adept with Magic 5 might choose to 'spend' 3 points on adept powers, and reserve the other 2 for Spellcasting and the like.  With a Force 3 Mystic Focus, they can instead roll all 5 Dice with their magician skills.  If they had a Force 4 Mystic Focus, they would still only roll 5 Dice (since there are only 3 dice of Adept Magic to 'share').

working on an Initiate power as well, but that's gonna take some writting for the full rules.  :/
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <07-19-12/1755:06>
Don't like it.  Basically strips away the entire point of being a Mystic Adept (having to choose which side of the coin to send the next bit of Magic to).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Glorthoron on <07-19-12/1839:06>
Don't like it.  Basically strips away the entire point of being a Mystic Adept (having to choose which side of the coin to send the next bit of Magic to).

I concure
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <07-19-12/1910:59>
Don't like it.  Basically strips away the entire point of being a Mystic Adept (having to choose which side of the coin to send the next bit of Magic to).

I concure
No it doesn't.  All it is is a specialized, limited(and therefor a bit cheaper) version of a Power Focus.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <07-20-12/0434:54>
Reminds me of this.....


Fetishes (Expendable foci)
Treat exactly the same as the relevant focus, but the cost of the item is one fifth the cost of a focus, the item costs no Karma to bond, and the item is destroyed after one use. So, a Power Fetish Rated 3 would add 3 dice to any one Magic test much like a focus would, at the cost of 15000 nuyen and the bonding ritual, but no Karma. One Fetish item exists for every kind of focus item already present in the rules, but the Availability is higher (don't remember by how much) due to the limited nature of these items.

Specific Spell Focus
Treat as a Spellcasting Focus, but for one specific spell chosen at the time of creation. I forgot the costs, folks, sorry. Might look it up later, but I think the Karma was =Force

Specific Spirit Focus
As a Summoning and Binding Focus, but for one specific spiritual entity chosen at the time of creation. That entity must be bound or otherwise on hand for the entire creation of the focus. Anyone coming into possession of this focus at a later time may call that spirit, despite their limits from their tradition. Spirits detest this kind of focus, hating the control it grants magicians over them. Cost was about the same as for the above focus.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: _Pax_ on <07-20-12/1343:37>
I think I'd throw in a freebie for the Specific Spell Focus, and say it also counts as a Fetish for that spell, if one is needed.  :)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <07-22-12/0207:47>
New Spirit Powers

Mythical Edge
Required power: Natural Weapon
Cost: 1
Two options I'd like feedback on.
Option one
The spirit's Natural Weapon gains -(Spirit's Force/2 + 2) AP
Option two:
The spirit's Natural Weapon is now resisted with 1/2 Impact Armor, rounded down.

Astral Focus
Cost: 1
The spirit gains the ability to bind the astral constructs of Foci to itself, enabling it to take them wherever it may go.  This process costs twice the normal amount of Karma for binding a focus, and consumes the material form of the focus in the process.  All other limits for binding focuses apply. 
From then on, anyone assensing the spirit would see the foci's aura just as they would an awakened with a bound focus.  When the Focus is active, and manifested or possessing spirit will show some representation of the foci's use.  A manifesting spirit will manifest some appropriate addition to itself, usually looking like the original physical form of the focus, but not always (especially for spirits with the Mutable Form power).  A possessing spirit will usually show some sort of mystic tattoo or other mark on it's host while the focus is active.

Optionally, a spirit with the Natural Weapon power may choose to, when binding a weapon focus, have either the Natural Attack add half the focus' force rating to it's dice pool, or add half the Natural Weapon's DV to attacks with the Weapon Focus.


::Edited; accidentally labeled Astral Focus as Metamagic.  :x ::
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <07-22-12/0231:07>
I'd go with the spirit gains Force/2 AP or Force-2 AP. Something like that.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <07-26-12/0259:59>
New idea for a simple house rule:  Shields do not count against armor encumberance. Instead, their 'encumberance' is represented by yourinability to use that hand for anything else... like using a second gun, or using a weapon that requires 2 hands, for example.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <07-26-12/0453:38>
New idea for a simple house rule:  Shields do not count against armor encumberance. Instead, their 'encumberance' is represented by yourinability to use that hand for anything else... like using a second gun, or using a weapon that requires 2 hands, for example.

And don't forget, you also get a -1 to all other actions, even if you're not over your Encumbrance limit, for using one. Between that and tying up a hand, I don't think it would be game-breaking to not have them count against your worn armor, since they're worn, not carried carried, not worn.


EDIT:GAH! Stupid grammar mistake!
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <07-26-12/1224:40>
New idea for a simple house rule:  Shields do not count against armor encumberance. Instead, their 'encumberance' is represented by yourinability to use that hand for anything else... like using a second gun, or using a weapon that requires 2 hands, for example.

And don't forget, you also get a -1 to all other actions, even if you're not over your Encumbrance limit, for using one. Between that and tying up a hand, I don't think it would be game-breaking to not have them count against your worn armor, since they're worn, not carried.

Indeed; it seems a little silly to me that the average person (body 3) would be maxed out on encumberance just by holding a relatively light piece of plastic~
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <07-26-12/1948:52>
So, after looking over the spirit powers I had posted earlier, I've got a refinement for you all to look over:

New Spirit Powers
both of these new powers require the Natural Weapon power.

Mystic Edge
Cost: 1
The spirit's Natural Weapon gain AP = -(Force/2 + 1)

Natural Reach
Cost: 1
When taken, the spirit chooses one of the following options:
1) The spirit's Natural Weapon gains a reach of 2 and +1DV
2) The spirit's Natural Weapon gains a reach of 1, and the the spirit it considered to be 'duel wielding' it (wielding a second copy of the weapon in it's 'off hand'), with all of the benefits and penalties associated with such.
option is meant to represent things like a Guardian spirit with two swords, or a Beast Spirit with claws on both 'arms'



Thoughts?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <07-31-12/1133:33>
Quick new idea:
Laser slights give a +2 modifier to laser weapons.  This represents that there's no travel time, windage or bullet drop to account for; wherever that red dot is, that what's getting burned when you pull the trigger.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: TheNarrator on <08-01-12/2244:44>
Better include the same for Red Dot Sights as well. Laser sights kind of suck: it's actually quite difficult to see the little dot it's projecting. Reflector sights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflector_sight) and holographic sights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_weapon_sight), on the other hand (which have finally been statted in SR4 as "red dot sights" in Gun Heaven), are always easy for the user to see as long as they bring the sights up to their eyes.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <08-02-12/0308:06>
Better include the same for Red Dot Sights as well. Laser sights kind of suck: it's actually quite difficult to see the little dot it's projecting. Reflector sights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflector_sight) and holographic sights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_weapon_sight), on the other hand (which have finally been statted in SR4 as "red dot sights" in Gun Heaven), are always easy for the user to see as long as they bring the sights up to their eyes.
Was just thinking about that when going through Gun Heaven, too... Not a bad idea.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: nmap on <10-07-12/0027:45>
I'm thinking of one house rule, dropping the dodge skill and using reaction aagain where applicable.

The rationale is that it's boring. It doesn't give you anything new to do, it's semi-mandatory (so it takes points from skills that actually do things) and if you don't take it, you character canot do the "omg I'm outta here action that "nakes sense for pretty much ny character. I know it will make high reaction charactets pretty much unhitable, but that's more of a featire. What do you think?

(also we are playing 320 points characters, so we don't have points to spare for boring skills)

Sorry for the typos and horrible spelling and misplaced quotes, I'm not ilitrrate, just using phone "keyboard".
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: nmap on <10-07-12/0032:59>
Oh and one more: nonimplanted smartlink doen't give you instant mind control over the guns features. Becausr how would contact lens do that.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Noble Drake on <10-07-12/0729:00>
Oh and one more: nonimplanted smartlink doen't give you instant mind control over the guns features. Becausr how would contact lens do that.
Presumably by way of DNI you have through trodes/datajack connection to your commlink, which has a wireless connection to your contact lens and also to your smartgun system - which is the only way the entire system works in the first place.

...and the implanted version still requires the wireless connection aspect since it no longer includes wiring run down your arm to an induction pad in your hand (the reason you found Smartlink on the bodyware chart in earlier editions, not the eyeware chart), so why create an arbitrary difference between the two?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <10-07-12/1310:59>
That's why you buy the skinlink upgrade.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xzylvador on <10-07-12/1349:02>
I'm thinking of one house rule, dropping the dodge skill and using reaction aagain where applicable.

The rationale is that it's boring. It doesn't give you anything new to do, it's semi-mandatory (so it takes points from skills that actually do things) and if you don't take it, you character canot do the "omg I'm outta here action that "nakes sense for pretty much ny character. I know it will make high reaction charactets pretty much unhitable, but that's more of a featire. What do you think?

(also we are playing 320 points characters, so we don't have points to spare for boring skills)

Sounds like street sams get a free upgrade while mundanes are screwed.
Then again, I also think 320 point characters aren't much fun to play (avg of 3 on stats... if I wanted to play an average guy, I'd play Call of Cthulhu or another game meant for that) and already pretty much forces everyone into cyberaugments to be somewhat above average anyway (mages and TM's are far too karma/BP costly).
-- Kind of odd thing to do in any case, lowering starting points but then giving freebies because they've got too few points to spend...

If you want a "beginners"-style game, limiting availability and starting nuyen is a far better way of doing so without making players play lousy characters. Lower BP's just mean average stat (average for a wageslave, below average for trained mercs/runners/corpsec) and means they'll only spend points on "critical" stuff instead of spending some on flavorful skills which makes the characters more realistic.

YMMV, but I wouldn't recommend either of those houserules.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: valavaern on <10-11-12/2037:02>
Oh and one more: nonimplanted smartlink doen't give you instant mind control over the guns features. Becausr how would contact lens do that.
Presumably by way of DNI you have through trodes/datajack connection to your commlink, which has a wireless connection to your contact lens and also to your smartgun system - which is the only way the entire system works in the first place.

...and the implanted version still requires the wireless connection aspect since it no longer includes wiring run down your arm to an induction pad in your hand (the reason you found Smartlink on the bodyware chart in earlier editions, not the eyeware chart), so why create an arbitrary difference between the two?

There was a Whole, big thread here a few months ago arguing about just what and how smartlink works, particularly the contacts.  The general consensus by the end was that the smartlink/smartgun combo was a HORRIBLE lift&drop from SR3, and that smartguns should just work through imagelink and normal DNIs just like ever single other piece of gear in the game.  Also, under-barrel smartgun systems PROBABLY shouldn't be able to eject your clip and all that stuff, because... how?  O.o
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kot on <10-12-12/0656:05>
The Smartlink upgrade should be for the whole weapon. The under/overbarrel part is just a guiding laser for the system. To be able to count ammo, display barrel temperature, measure distance, etc. the Smartlink has to be integrated into the gun on a higher scale, than just an accessory. Thus, you can easily add a mag or electric module to the clip loading mechanism to eject the clit 'at will'. Just as easy as adding temperature sensors, stress detectors, and ammo counters.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Nothrog on <10-12-12/0916:12>
Extra contacts - if i were going to make a house rule to increase the number of contacts I would make sure it gave lesser contacts. Something like this : you gain cha = extra contacts each with a total rating = etiquette. Most toons would get a few contacts extra but the face would be able to round out his stable and this would give you alot of low level contacts. I think it would add to the game in a positive way. now you can blow some points on that big time contact you want and still have taken the time to get the number of the bartender where you drink all the time, the cop you knew before you left the force, the reporter ect all the people you have run into along the way ...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Redmercury on <10-12-12/1041:47>
How about blunt weapons, mostly clubs, all deal physical, get +1 to damage and +3 armor penetration.  This way they're more likely to deal stun damage (as they should) and are as vicious as they should be against unarmored opponents. I also feel the same should apply to fists, as a bare fist is without a doubt a lethal weapon. You don't need to be an adept to kill someone with your bare hands before filling up their RL "stun track"
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Redmercury on <10-18-12/1215:36>
For blind fire, instead of taking a -6 die penalty, roll your edge for attack, ignoring other penalties unless they cumulatively exceed the skill you would normally use.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: WellsIDidIt on <10-18-12/1246:28>
Remember, blind fire isn't just a -6 for most people. It's a -6 and a swap from agility to intuition. Usually that a point or two for most folks, but for sammies it normally ends up being a good wallop to their dice pool. Of course my druid is just as well off closing his eyes and spraying as he is using agility.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Kot on <10-18-12/1301:01>
Blind fire isn't luck - it's indeed Intuition and perception (which as far as the usual metahuman senses go is a part of Intuition as an Attribute). You need to guess, remember, or hear where your enemy is in the dark. Or you need to do that, while popping only your gun over your cover, or around the corner. You can still use Edge for that, but only if that Blind Fire modifier - along with any others - drops them below zero dice. Then you're relying on pure luck by spending a point of Edge and rolling your Edge pool.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: WellsIDidIt on <10-30-12/0334:28>
Well, here are a few of mine that I've put together over time:
Banishing: Banishing is no longer it's own skill. It is now simply an option tied to the Binding skill. When banishing, you suffer drain equal to half the spirit's force. If your banishing attempt fails, the spirits force is treated as one higher for each net hit it gained for the purposes of drain. If the spirit's force is greater than your Magic attribute, drain from banishing is Physical rather than stun.
    A banished spirit may immediately be resummoned by the banishing magician. If the banishing magician already has an unbound spirit, the banished spirit will still grant the banishing magician a single service if successfully resummoned. If the banishing magician received a critical success on the banishing test (4+ net hits), he gains a +2 dice pool bonus to resummon a banished spirit.

Electricity: High amounts of electrical damage can cause physical damage to metahumans and even machinery or vehicles. If the Electrical Damage is greater than the targets Body x 2 (for metahumans) or Body (for vehicles), then it's damage is staged to physical. Damage in these cases must follow all normal rules for damaging attacks, and is staged back to stun if it does not exceed the targets modified armor rating (including non-conductivity bonuses). Bonus damage from autofire and similar multi-attack situations does not apply for the purposes of staging damage to physical. Characters may choose whether or not to apply net hits for DV bonuses when making electrical attacks (in order to reduce lethality).

Elemental Spells: Elemental Combat Spells may take advantage of the Call Shot and Take Aim actions from the combat section. In addition, a mage can make an Attack to Knockdown with an elemental spell. In this case, the spell deals no damage and will knock the target down it's Force+net hits exceed the targets Body. Target's still suffer secondary elemental effects from the spell.

Critical Strike: This power may be applied to any melee attack. If the character rating in the power exceeds the DV bonus of his weapon, the weapon is broken during the attack.

Shock Lock Ammo: Sock Lock Rounds are treated as explosives for the purpose of damaging locks and door hinges (see destroying barriers, pg. 166). This replaces their normal bonus. Against all other targets, including other barrier types, they are still treated as firearms with explosive ammunition.

Soft Weave: May only be applied to Personal Armor Suits, Military Armors, and the specific armor Full Body Armor. All other armors are considered to already make use of Soft Weave technology. Softweave reduces both armor ratings of the armor by the wearer Strength score.

example: James is wearing Full Body FFBA under a suit of SWAT Armor and a SWAT Helmet. The SWAT Armor has been Softweaved. James has an encumbrance rating of 3/1 for the Form Fit Body Armor, and because his Strength is a 4, the SWAT Armor and SWAT Helmet  gives another 10/8 (normally 14/10)Encumbrance. This puts James at a total encumbrance of 13/9. Since James has a Body of 7, he is still under his encumbrance limit.

SWAT Armor: SWAT Armor can be equipped with a Chemical Seal.

Environmental Conditions: Extremely hot and or humid conditions cause fatigue much quicker than usual environments. In such environments (such as jungle and or desert), character must make a fatigue check every 15 minutes if they exceed their Body in armor rating, wear bulky clothing (such as jackets and coats), or tight non-breathing clothing (such as form-fit or second skin).

Shotguns: Shotguns can make use of Gas Vent technology.

Exotic Weapons: Exotic Weapons fired remotely still use their appropriate Exotic Weapon skill rather than Gunnery.

Call Shot: Call Shot to negate armor may be taken at any penalty the character desires rather than only negating the target's full armor. If the target's full armor is not negated, he is still considered to be wearing armor for the purposes of flechette ammunition and other positive AP modifiers.

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mithlas on <11-02-12/0503:00>
I've noticed that some skills (armorer, artisan, Pilot Ground) seem rather overly broad, and combined with the perceived unimportance of Knowledge skills when this doesn't jive with real life gave me this idea:

Knowledge skill bonus points = (Intuition + Logic) * 5 (in BP, *10 with KarmaGen)
Active skills (except Dodge and Perception) require supporting knowledge skills at least at their level - ie Sam has Longarms 4 and Teppojutsu 4, and would also support the character using the rifle as a club in melee.

Having a supporting knowledge skill higher than the active skill increases the threshold required to Glitch by 1. Alternately, you can choose to have it remove a 1 from relevant rolls, depending on Table consensus. This represents characters who know better than "pull out barbed arrow and stick gauze over gushing wound".
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <11-19-12/2006:27>
Recent topics have got me thinking... I like ambushes, and want to encourage players to use them them, so here's a House Rule to make it more useful to bring Surprise into your combat situations:

Essentially, the losing characters on a Surprise Test are left flat footed for a number of Action Phases (i.e. IPs they get to act on) based on the "deficit" in Surprise hits compared to the highest roll... lets call it their Surprise Rating. Every time the person who has been surprised would have an Action Phase they forfeit it and, instead, reduce their Surprise Rating by 1 until it's gone, which leaves them free to act on their next Action Phase.

PCs and "Prime Runner" NPCs (but not "Grunt" or "Lieutenant" NPCs, no matter their Professional Rating) may spend Edge to reduce their Surprise Rating by their Edge, to a minimum of 0, thus further separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to being a badass.

---   ---   ---

I think it not only makes Surprise and ambushes more realistic, since the amount of time spent going "WTF Is Happening?!?!" in a surprise situation really does vary significantly between people, but it's a much needed perk for Adepts, since they can easily make themselves Surprise Kings by taking Combat Sense.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: AffreuxLex on <12-07-12/2307:03>
Going back many posts about the contacts' availability.  I don't know if I saw this somewhere or I just made shi...stuff up but what I had my old group do to see if a contact is available is to roll a D6 and compare it to their connection rating. 

Rating 6 people would be much harder to get to.  Either they are busy, some secretary refuses to pass on the call, they're in a meeting, aren't taking calls, away on business, any number of things.  Where as someone with a connection 1 rating is probably home playing some VR game waiting on a call from his drug dealer... or you... whichever comes first.

So anyway, if they have a connection rating 1, they are always available.  Connection 2 you roll a 2 or higher and you get a hold of them,  3 roll a 3 or higher, etc.  This way a connection 6 contact is only available ~17% of the time.

---

Another house rule I like is right from the core rule book.  Limit hits on skills to rating * 2.  Just because you're agile enough to bend yourself in half and lick your own belly button doesn't mean you should have the potential to shoot a gun with 7 or 8 hits on a skill level of 1.  However I ignore that limitation whenever edge is used.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xzylvador on <12-08-12/0536:57>
Going back many posts about the contacts' availability.  I don't know if I saw this somewhere or I just made shi...stuff up but what I had my old group do to see if a contact is available is to roll a D6 and compare it to their connection rating. 

Rating 6 people would be much harder to get to.  Either they are busy, some secretary refuses to pass on the call, they're in a meeting, aren't taking calls, away on business, any number of things.  Where as someone with a connection 1 rating is probably home playing some VR game waiting on a call from his drug dealer... or you... whichever comes first.

So anyway, if they have a connection rating 1, they are always available.  Connection 2 you roll a 2 or higher and you get a hold of them,  3 roll a 3 or higher, etc.  This way a connection 6 contact is only available ~17% of the time.

Not a bad idea, though it does seem to be missing a Loyalty modifier.
Calling Corporate Bigshot Did-A-Job-For-Him-Once (L1, C6) while he's in a meeting will get you an automated "please call back later" message.
But Corporate Bigshot Saved-His-And-His-Families-Life (L6, C6) might occasionally risk interrupting the meeting to take "a very important call.".
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Prodigy on <12-08-12/0643:19>
Also, what if they are connection 8? The made man quality comes to mind (group contact connection 8 loyalty 4). So I'm in the mob, but can never get a hold of anyone?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Novocrane on <12-08-12/0758:11>
That 8 connection is, I believe, intended for purchase of more people, magic, matrix presence or land influence. In which case, it should be written as X[8]. Where X is the remainder after you fill in the other four blanks.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: AffreuxLex on <12-08-12/1222:47>
Going back many posts about the contacts' availability.  I don't know if I saw this somewhere or I just made shi...stuff up but what I had my old group do to see if a contact is available is to roll a D6 and compare it to their connection rating. 

Rating 6 people would be much harder to get to.  Either they are busy, some secretary refuses to pass on the call, they're in a meeting, aren't taking calls, away on business, any number of things.  Where as someone with a connection 1 rating is probably home playing some VR game waiting on a call from his drug dealer... or you... whichever comes first.

So anyway, if they have a connection rating 1, they are always available.  Connection 2 you roll a 2 or higher and you get a hold of them,  3 roll a 3 or higher, etc.  This way a connection 6 contact is only available ~17% of the time.

Not a bad idea, though it does seem to be missing a Loyalty modifier.
Calling Corporate Bigshot Did-A-Job-For-Him-Once (L1, C6) while he's in a meeting will get you an automated "please call back later" message.
But Corporate Bigshot Saved-His-And-His-Families-Life (L6, C6) might occasionally risk interrupting the meeting to take "a very important call.".

We never bothered with modifiers with the loyalty because it is meant to just keep the game pace going.  In role playing terms I would just include the chance that the contact might interrupt a meeting in those 1 in 6 odds. Maybe if a player spent a point of edge and added total edge to the roll to modify the results.  Then they are far more likely to catch a lucky break and catch the contact at a good time.  However that still seems to me as an over complication of a simplification.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <12-08-12/1412:55>
That 8 connection is, I believe, intended for purchase of more people, magic, matrix presence or land influence. In which case, it should be written as X( 8 ). Where X is the remainder after you fill in the other four blanks.

I've pretty much done something pretty similar. With groups, I take the base Connection rating as a measure of how involved the group is with other groups, thus how tied up their resources are, while the GC mods are how much they can do with their own infrastructure.

I also subtract Loyalty from Connection for the threshold, but you have to beat it, not just equal it... i.e. Connect 6, Loyalty 5 means you need a 2 or greater.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Prodigy on <12-09-12/0119:58>
What if connection 3, loyalty 5?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-09-12/0123:22>
That 8 connection is, I believe, intended for purchase of more people, magic, matrix presence or land influence. In which case, it should be written as X( 8 ). Where X is the remainder after you fill in the other four blanks.

I've pretty much done something pretty similar. With groups, I take the base Connection rating as a measure of how involved the group is with other groups, thus how tied up their resources are, while the GC mods are how much they can do with their own infrastructure.

I also subtract Loyalty from Connection for the threshold, but you have to beat it, not just equal it... i.e. Connect 6, Loyalty 5 means you need a 2 or greater.

With so many points in such a contact, it's best to always have them available.

What if connection 3, loyalty 5?

That goes for this as well.

About the only time I can see a contact not being available is a Loyalty 1, Connection 1.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Prodigy on <12-09-12/0134:42>
I agree with A4BG. I realize a really connected guy is busy, but is also a businessman. (or at least is interested in money, info, or whatever the runner is offering in return for services rendered.) A connection 5, loyalty 1 contact will not ignore a runner who wants an Ares Alpha just because "I'm busy". He just won't cut the runner a deal (at all at that loyalty). Treating connection as availability is misguided I think. Especially when you stop to think that, for instance, the connection 5 guy is let's say a politician. A criminal who at one time stole, kidnapped, murdered, etc. for said politician is calling. "Take a message" wouldn't be my first thought. I could go on with examples but my point is runners who survive a not actually a dime a dozen. Contacts realize this, that's why they have contact with runners.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crunch on <12-09-12/0234:20>
I think that a Contact will always at least take the call. That's why they're a contact.

Now repetitive calls about stupid stuff might very well reduce the loyalty rating or lose the contact entirely.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JustADude on <12-09-12/0415:13>
What if connection 3, loyalty 5?

At C:3 L:5, you're the old friend that they'll drop anything for, no question's asked, and help out however they can. Abuse it, however, and you'll start seeing their Loyalty drop pretty fast.

The degree of success also helps determine just how glad they are to see you and how much help they'll offer without demanding any Quid Pro Quo.

With so many points in such a contact, it's best to always have them available.

Oh, you'll always be able to get hold of them. The question is, are they willing and able to do what you need from them. In the case of C:6 L:5, if you manged to roll a 1 you might be hitting the contact up during a hostile takeover attempt, or in the middle of a massive labor dispute, or some other problem that's got them pulling their hair. Essentially, they've got too much on their plate to pull any strings for you.

Now, the PCs being professional "problem solvers" and all, the players have the option of doing a little side job to smooth his road so he can smooth yours.

For a tie, like this, it'd be fairly smooth sailing, but rolling a 1 on a C:6 L:1 contact... well, at that point you're probably just going to want to walk away. Clearing things up will probably take more work than the job you need help on.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Prodigy on <12-09-12/1026:54>
I can see your point, but again JAD your looking at connection as availability. You said a connection 3 loyalty 5 contact is a loyal friend who would drop anything. How does he differ from the connection 6 loyalty 5? Thats the loyalty part. A connection 3 is just as susceptible to hostile takeover or whatever. Even a connection 1 drug dealer could have just been ripped off or be temporarily out of product etcetera. In your system, a connection 6 guy is almost always too busy for you unless you are good friends. So someone like a well connected fixer, with a job that literally revolves around runners, would ignore a good runner team just because "we aren't friends"? Hell, if he's in a bind a good runner team is what he needs! I just think connection should simply measure influence while loyalty should measure how good of a deal said contact would provide. And, as always, the higher the loyalty, the more the contact wants in return...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-09-12/1157:43>
One other thing. Contacts cost FAR too many points as-is. I'm thinking it'd be better to have them cost 1 BP (2 Karma) for 4 rating points--divided amongst all Contacts. This would be whilst still using the houserule FastJack proposed ( (Cha + Etiquette) * 4) ), only the points from that houserule would be spent normally.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Novocrane on <12-10-12/0143:42>
With the conversation around empathy software still going, I thought I'd post this and see how many people hate the idea.

Quote
Empathy software is designed for use with standard video/trideo cameras, simrigs, cybereyes and similar devices. By carefully analysing the behavioural patterns of the subject, it can ascertain mood, interest, and so on. It does not detect falsehoods; thats the realm of lie detection software.
Empathy software can be used to assist a Judge Intentions Test (see p. 139, SR4A) for emotional status adding half its rating (round up) to the dice pool. If used to make a Judge Intentions Test alone, use it's full rating.
Empathy software can be discreetly used during negotiations or social interactions, provided sufficient visual input of the target is available, and the user has real time access to the software's output. Add half its rating (round down) as a dice pool bonus to the characters Social skill tests.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: WellsIDidIt on <12-10-12/0928:12>
The worth of contacts is entirely a matter of the game being played. If the game is heavy action, light legwork, little between session needs, then they're probably overpriced. If it's heavy legwork, light action, with lots of between session needs, they're probably underpriced and your combat skills are probably overpriced.


Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Cherno on <12-20-12/0653:09>
Hello all,

I'd like to get your opinion on some modifications to the way initiative is handled in SR4.

Let's assume that the game will be fairly combat-centric, think of the popular action RPGs on PC like Fallout 3 where generally characters can choose between the Speech, Combat, or Stealth approach, but it end in combat most of the time anyway ;)

There's been a lot of discussion about how to balance Reflex Boosted characters vs. Mages and others. Those extra 2 or even 3 initiative passes sure can be overpowered, especially if the enemy has it as well and the non-cybered ones are left ducking into cover on the first turn.

There's two ways I've been contemplating about how to lessen the impact without gimping boosted characters.

1. The old SR2 initiative system. It gives most unboosted characters at least a small chance to act two times during a typical combat round, and Street Samurais act 2 or 3 times most of the time. The downside is that they will pretty much always act multiple times before the slower ones.

2. Having no initiative passes at all! Instead, Reflex Boosters just add a bonus to Reaction so characters will act first but also add one or more simple actions during the character's turn, with the usual mechanic of two additional simple actions being able to be combined into one complex one, and so on. So a Street Samurai with Level 2 Boosters might get 4 Simple Actions (2 Simple, 1 Complex or 2 Complex) in his combat turn.

Any thought on this?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <12-20-12/1945:58>
That could quickly end up having the speed junkies blowing away the opposition before anyone else gets a turn.  It's not as bad as previous editions (which gave ENTIRE sets of actions first) but it will get quickly old to the slow guys.

I do recommend trying it out and then telling us about it, though.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Azrael on <01-04-13/1457:05>
This is a house rule in the works help in developing it is both NEEDED and appreciated to be clear I do not want to add hit locations to my game.
One of my players asked if you could shoot an area of the body and make it much harder to do a particular set of tasks. There were no set rules for shooting a hand or foot and the largest reason for not having hit locations stems from need to keep combat abstract so I put this forward.



Called Shot to Inhibit. attacker selects an attribute and chooses to reduce their dice pool by 1 to 6 to inflict an equal Condition Modifier to all skills linked to the selected attribute. This penalty lasts until the wound is healed can be reduce by a Willpower + Pain resistance test (a Pain Editor would not help to reduce the penalty it simply allows you to ignore the penalty while it is turned on)

or

Called Shot to Wound, Attacker receives a -4 penalty to Dice pool defender is treated as gaining the Low pain tolerance Negative quality until the wound is healed (players with Low Pain tolerance are reduced to uselessness quickly as stacking the effect would mean a 1 for 1 CM ratio for them). If damage is completely staged off there is no effect
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <01-04-13/1503:10>
This is a house rule in the works help in developing it is both NEEDED and appreciated to be clear I do not want to add hit locations to my game.
One of my players asked if you could shoot an area of the body and make it much harder to do a particular set of tasks. There were no set rules for shooting a hand or foot and the largest reason for not having hit locations stems from need to keep combat abstract so I put this forward.



Called Shot to Inhibit. attacker selects an attribute and chooses to reduce their dice pool by 1 to 6 to inflict an equal Condition Modifier to all skills linked to the selected attribute. This penalty lasts until the wound is healed can be reduce by a Willpower + Pain resistance test (a Pain Editor would not help to reduce the penalty it simply allows you to ignore the penalty while it is turned on)

or

Called Shot to Wound, Attacker receives a -4 penalty to Dice pool defender is treated as gaining the Low pain tolerance Negative quality until the wound is healed (players with Low Pain tolerance are reduced to uselessness quickly as stacking the effect would mean a 1 for 1 CM ratio for them). If damage is completely staged off there is no effect

It's still added complexity for little or no real gain. If you want to do it, go ahead, but keep in mind that any added complexity will slow things down. I disagree that combat is all that slow now, but there are some who've said that they've somehow taken several hours for a combat (never had one take more than one hour--with a lot of off-topic tangents--personally).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Azrael on <01-04-13/1514:04>
It's still added complexity for little or no real gain. If you want to do it, go ahead, but keep in mind that any added complexity will slow things down. I disagree that combat is all that slow now, but there are some who've said that they've somehow taken several hours for a combat (never had one take more than one hour--with a lot of off-topic tangents--personally).

Thank you All4BigGuns, How do you think it would effect game play and is it too extreme?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <01-04-13/1525:30>
As I said, any added complexity will slow things down. The second one is too extreme, but I don't see justifying how making a called shot can somehow make someone tolerate pain less (they may feel more pain, but that's already reflected in normal wound penalties).
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: WellsIDidIt on <01-05-13/0955:59>
Some attacks are just more painful than others. Knowing how to take advantage of that is pretty much the basis of many unarmed strikes.

Personally, I think both can work as you've put forth. The shot to inhibit may be a little overpowered just due to the sheer amount of skills you can affect by hitting someone's agility, but i don't for see it ever causing a huge issue. Both shots should have a smaller shelf life than "until healed". Personally I'd say for a number of turns equal to attack's net hits to make it similar to how the tase rules work. I think it would be a little "fairer" for it to have a damage threshold of the target's Willpower though, similar to how some of the toxin effects work.

Another one to consider is the Call Shot to Hobble
Attacker receives a -4 penalty to the shot. If the target takes damage exceeding it's Willpower, it suffers a -25% movement penalty for a number of turns equal to the attack's net hits. This can be done multiple times, but may never incur more than a 75% movement penalty.

I disagree with All4 though, I know, it's a shocker. These don't add any complexity to the game. Call Shots are already a part of the game. All these do is add more choices for a Call Shot action. It's really not adding any more complexity than adding gear from a new sourcebook to the game would be. Choices are almost always a good thing.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <01-05-13/1139:15>
More complexity would be adding in a new feature/option to use with your weapons, based upon their type (blunt, edged, pokey stick, etc.).  Such as different bonuses to parry an attack based upon whether or not the weapon was designed for it.  Like a +3 for a main gauche, or a -1 for a rock, that sort of thing.

Simply adding an option to an existing ability doesn't add complexity, per se, but unless introduced correctly into the game can be potentially confusing.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Azrael on <01-05-13/1304:45>
Some attacks are just more painful than others. Knowing how to take advantage of that is pretty much the basis of many unarmed strikes.

Personally, I think both can work as you've put forth. The shot to inhibit may be a little overpowered just due to the sheer amount of skills you can affect by hitting someone's agility, but i don't for see it ever causing a huge issue. Both shots should have a smaller shelf life than "until healed". Personally I'd say for a number of turns equal to attack's net hits to make it similar to how the tase rules work. I think it would be a little "fairer" for it to have a damage threshold of the target's Willpower though, similar to how some of the toxin effects work.

Another one to consider is the Call Shot to Hobble
Attacker receives a -4 penalty to the shot. If the target takes damage exceeding it's Willpower, it suffers a -25% movement penalty for a number of turns equal to the attack's net hits. This can be done multiple times, but may never incur more than a 75% movement penalty.

I disagree with All4 though, I know, it's a shocker. These don't add any complexity to the game. Call Shots are already a part of the game. All these do is add more choices for a Call Shot action. It's really not adding any more complexity than adding gear from a new sourcebook to the game would be. Choices are almost always a good thing.

@WellsIDidIt I like the Idea of hobble and I am going to rework it and my Idea tell me what you think,
 Attacker receives a -4 penalty to the shot

                Hobble Defender may not run and receives a 6 meter penalty to base movement minimum movement rate is 0 . This penalty can be reduced by 1 for each hit on a (2) Willpower+Pain Tolerance test (Pain editor ignores penalty while it is on)
              Wound Defender receives to all skills linked to an attribute of 6. The effected attribute is selected by the attacker and the penalty can be reduced by 1 for each hit on a (2) Willpower+Pain Tolerance test (Pain editor ignores penalty while it is on)

Recovering from theses attacks is a healing test (2) Body+Willpower with an interval of 10 minutes. , each hit over the threshold will reduce the penalty by 1

Any suggestions?

      When the smoke cleared Hama Zhou scanned the carnage and quickly spotted the venerable troll's wound "Can you walk Smiling-Wolf-Dono?" Hama Zhou said humbly "No...but I can shoot" Smiling-Wolf grunted as he failed to stand "We can't carry the old trog out of here and we can't stay. what are we going to do Zhou?" Phase whined as he stepped out of hiding. "Do not speak to me so familiarly Phase-Jukeisha, For now we will do as we must." Zhou said harshly.

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Redmercury on <01-06-13/1442:38>
Oh here's one I'll be implementing- With the kick maneuver you can choose to deal +1DV or have the reach bonus. 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Necrogigas on <01-30-13/2252:18>
House rules for using firearms in melee combat
-3 for tasers and pistols (including machine pistols)
-4 for submachine guns
-5 for assault and battle rifles, longarms, and heavy weapons
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Blue_Lion on <02-03-13/1559:15>
EWWW!!!! D20 Shadowrun thats Thats Blaspheme
Hey! I was trying to convince a bunch of gamers that refused to learn a new system to play SR.

If they are that closed minded on systems it probaly not a good idea. So much of the flavor of the game whould be lost. IE at high level a charter with the same gear takes way more hits to kill than he should.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: DigitalZombie on <02-12-13/0400:48>
custom cyberlimbs maximum rating is users current attributes, NOT natural maximum. Reasoning: I find it odd the strength 3 dwarf can have a strength 8 cyberarm, while arnold braunsweig the strength 6 human, can only have a strength 6 arm. ( not counting normal upgrades) as a small bonus you are allowed to upgrade the arm for 1500 when you upgrade your attributes.

contact lenses doesnt stack with goggles and glasses. Reasoning: As it stands now all characters can cram just about everything into lenses/glasses. I want to make cybereyes more useful.

And all attributes must be minimum 2, before racial modifications. Reasoning: its too easy to create str 1 characters with shock gloves or logic/charisma/str1 samurais. Guess its a mix between the generalist approach from karma gen and the min-max from point buy.

Free skill point in each of these : computer, datasearch, unarmed or cybercombat or astral combat, perception or assenssing, pilot ground vehicle and a few more I cant remember.

Some skills got rolled together, like lockpick into hardware and diving into swimming, forgery into artisan.
Have some more, but they havent been implemented yet.
Was considering the matrix alternative:attribute+skill and program as maximum hits or the other : program+skill and attribute as maximum hits. Does anyone have a preference between these 2?

And also. Hi btw, this is my first post. :) I really like the forums and a lot of people here have given tonnes of inspiration.  ;)
Its a shame though that with 35 pages of house rules, 25 of those are discussions.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: nmap on <03-08-13/1010:19>
Our new game (there's no section on this forum for APs, right? That's sad.) seems to have the following house-rules:

- dodge skill doesn't exist
- smartlink isn't eye or contact lense upgrade, smartgun just needs image link for HUD, and DNI (like datajack or integrated commlink) to control weapon
- stick-and shock ammo doesn't exist
- you can't heal drain damage with first aid or magic
- no encumbarence (I probably spelled that wrong) with only one piece of armor
- everyone has 10 stun and 10 physical
- enemies who are on 8 or 9 physical tend to jsut lie down and bleed, instead of fighting to the bitter end, unless they are really determined.
- charisma * 2 free BP for contacts on chargen

It's mostly to simplify game, or introduce more interesting possibilities (like you can put mage in SWAT armor, instead of everyone just having body*2 and being done with it)

We'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: emsquared on <03-08-13/1033:53>
- no encumbarence (I probably spelled that wrong) with only one piece of armor
- charisma * 2 free BP for contacts on chargen
These are two of my faves from the book.
Quote
- everyone has 10 stun and 10 physical
Is this only if their BOD is lower than 3 or is this for any BOD 5, 7 and up?
Quote
- stick-and shock ammo doesn't exist
This kind of gimps mundanes against spirits doesn't it?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: nmap on <03-08-13/1351:37>
Quote
- everyone has 10 stun and 10 physical
Is this only if their BOD is lower than 3 or is this for any BOD 5, 7 and up?
Everyone. It's like it was in older editions. I formerly did it when I was GM to simplify things. Now, after reading few topics here, I think the extra boxes would be useful, so I'll talk to the now GM about droping this. Chummer has us covered anyway.

Quote
Quote
- stick-and shock ammo doesn't exist
This kind of gimps mundanes against spirits doesn't it?
Yeah. We talked about "anti-spiritual ammo" that doesn't count as "normal weapon" to replace it if things go bad. But we wil have two mages (out of 4 characters) and the others are heavy weapon/explosives expert and technomancer, so I don't think it's going to be issue with spirits. The idea was mostly about SnS making it too easy to be the good guy. (the we should do something about stunbolt, right? I know, but I'm not sure what).

Oh, and we have small house rules about guns. Like "carabines get assault rifle damage" or such.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Supine on <03-27-13/0233:58>
I redo the guns in all my games. Right now, all I'm doing is adding RL guns and refluffing stuff like the AK-97 so it makes sense. It's not really major or important, but it's always bugged me that the AK-97 has nothing to do with 1997 and was probably not made by Kalashnikov, and that the SPAS-22 is just a bigger number and has nothing to do with the weapon's size. Later, I might write up a system for using different calibers in the weapons, but that's a little ambitious for now.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: nmap on <03-31-13/1734:35>
Supine: you could say that AK-97 is AK chambered in NATO and taking STANAG. The rules say you can switch around ammunition in same weapo category, right?
Title: common use programs are stupid
Post by: whistlingtony on <04-23-13/1546:58>
Hi,

I ditched common use programs. I thought it was stupid to waste character build time buying a dozen programs that do basic functions, and all of them cost next to nothing anyway. They seemed to me to eat space on the character sheet and just be kind of a holdover from the old stupid Decking rules.

I like simplified rules.

They are all basic OS functionality, so I just use the basic OS stat. If the players want something juiced up, let them spend the money and time I suppose. It's a simple thing, but it gets rid of a headache.

Tony
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Wildcard on <04-23-13/1603:50>
Simple one to keep combat short : Speaking a word is a free action. A short sentence a simple action. As nearly every human being thinks words at the speed they'd be saying them, DNI-texting would take the same amount of time.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-23-13/1712:53>
This is not true.  It takes a fraction of a second to form the words in your mind.  An example?  The text you are reading right now.  Time how long it takes to read this post. Done?  Good.

Now time how long it takes to SPEAK these two underlined sentences.  Odds are, this will take longer than reading, silently, in your mind, the entire post.


Just an example.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-23-13/1716:04>
Something gives me the impression that it may be getting applied to losing actions for making Out of Character comments too...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xzylvador on <04-24-13/0911:08>
The thing with a DNI is that, depending on how advanced it is and how it's implemented, can take a couple of steps out of the 'normal' process.
Reading: My eyes catch the light and bounce it on those stripes and cones (or whatever it's called in English) in the back of my eyes, with then send it to a part of my brain which makes an image out of it. That image is transfered to another part of my brain which turns that image into text, that text is then sent to a part of my brain which interprets that text, which then also has to take additional steps to translate it because it's not my native language.
A DNI might be able to skip part of that process and immediately send messages directly into the language-part of my brain, skipping past several of the interpretation steps which take place when reading this forum.

And, another thing: Speaking a 3 second line doesn't to take up 3 seconds of actions for the simple reason that, unless you've got some kind of attention disorder, it's fairly easy for a person to work with his hands, legs and rest of his body at  full speed while talking.
Ingame, this works by simply making talking a free action. That way, you don't do: 3 second action: Speak: "I am reloading, cover me!", 1 second: Eject magazine, 1 second: take new mag, 1 second: slam into gun, arm."
Instead, the three seconds of talking overlap the 3 seconds of action taking place.
(This is just an illustration for the overlap function of speaking as a free action, actual RAW actions are slightly different.)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-24-13/1608:39>
Ejecting a magazine should be a Free Action, anyway.

You do it by simply moving a digit a fraction of an inch while reaching for your new magazine...it's not really a separate step. The magazine falls out of the well when the catch is released - and even if it doesn't, a flick of the wrist should propel it clear.

If it is still stuck, you clear it with your finger as you bring the new mag in...but you're getting into weapon malfunction territory, at that point.

...

But SR combat time is full of quantum anomalies, I suppose.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mithlas on <04-24-13/2248:27>
Unless you're assumed to be policing your brass and magazines. In proper military procedure, you keep your magazine instead of just letting it fall.

Personally, I think it's a vestige of older editions where ejecting a smartgun was necessary to get that as a free action, because if you're policing your magazine it would still take a simple action because most of that time is putting away the old magazine. It becoming a free action is a benefit of a smartgun - possibly one of those copypaste carry-overs.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-25-13/1115:48>
Unless you're assumed to be policing your brass and magazines. In proper military procedure, you keep your magazine instead of just letting it fall.

Personally, I think it's a vestige of older editions where ejecting a smartgun was necessary to get that as a free action, because if you're policing your magazine it would still take a simple action because most of that time is putting away the old magazine. It becoming a free action is a benefit of a smartgun - possibly one of those copypaste carry-overs.

That may have been a procedure, but it isn't a proper one.

If you're manually removing an empty magazine in combat, you're doing it wrong.

They (at least the They that trained me) stopped teaching people to keep magazines because it's incredibly slow to do it that way. Magazines are cheap and trained personnel are expensive. Empty magazines are not in any way useful toward addressing the threat.

Shadowrunners are not regular military, anyway. If you want to take the time to take an empty magazine out of your weapon and stick it in a separate pocket away from your useful full magazines, then, when you're done with that, finally get around to inserting a full, useful magazine and get on with dealing with the people who are trying to kill you, then you can spend your actions on that.

I'm not doing that.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mithlas on <04-25-13/1251:30>
I think you're separating it into too many actions without keeping in mind that things can be done simultaneously. This is the sequence we were taught:
-Reach nearly empty. Before actually running out of ammo, release the hand not on the grip and trigger
-Draw the next full magazine
-Reach up with hand on grip and hit the button to eject the empty magazine
-Extend fingers and let the empty magazine fall into your fingers, then push up the replacement magazine
-Adjust grip on empty mag and slap up to ensure that new mag is firmly seated. This is the longest part of the procedure, and takes place over ~0.25-0.5 seconds
-Depending on the unit (usually if you're engaging in suppressive fire) you fire a burst as you drop the empty mag into the mag pocket that you just drew the replacement from
-Put hand back on forward grip to allow you to settle back into precision fire (even if engaging in suppressive fire)

That may sound like a lot, but it took us less than 2 seconds at the end of our first 6-hour training session, and we're still engaging the targets downrange during this process. If you're up against a squad of 4+ people doing this, particularly if they're well drilled, you may not even see a noticeable gap in the firing pace. People who have been drilling at this can complete the exchange even faster. I have no idea if this is everybody's procedure, and it's probably not what street-raised shadowrunners do, but it's one possible sequence of events. Just something to keep in mind.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-25-13/1355:31>

That's pretty close to what I was taught as a magazine exchange, where you would exchange a partially spend magazine for a full one. It is sometimes confusingly called a "combat reload" but you would never do so while getting shot at (because you still have bullets to share downrange) and would never put a partially empty magazine in with full ones.

What you are describing can be done quickly, but never as quickly as just discarding the old one.

I know guys who were taught that way, I just wasn't.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-25-13/1702:35>
Personally, I like me more than I like spent magazines.  Even if it only buys me 1 second, I like to think that 1 extra second of being able to protect myself (and my buddies) is worth it.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-25-13/1829:56>

Exactly.

It might make sense when you in an infantry unit, as one person taking a long time to reload isn't a big impact on your volume of fire.

But in CQB, fractions of a second count. Two seconds to reload is an eternity.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Prodigy on <05-02-13/1343:06>
The guys I worked with overseas just let their mags fall. You pick them back up after your enemies are gone/dead. Watch an SF quick shooter competition. They let their mags fall.

But you are correct Mithlas that with proper training it can be done smoothly with little gap in firing pace.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Aryeonos on <05-04-13/1942:44>
Consider that leaving behind even brass is a way to be traced, unless you scrubbed each shell with gasoline or bleach, or whatever your preferred agent is (gas probably not so much). When they were testing the AK-47 out initially they were instructed to pick up every bit of brass so the project wouldn't be leaked. Now mags are allot more specific, and if somehow you don't have footage or something similar you've got something hard to go off of from a number of different angles.

As far as it taking that much extra time to keep it all together, it shouldn't but, as you stated earlier JN the action phase is at the very least full of quantum anomalies. I think they should shrink how much time an Action is from 3 seconds to one to better reflect un-augmented human capability.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Lightning1987 on <05-04-13/1956:42>
For my next game I am about to run, I will running a cap on initiative passes (at 2). As I have a preference to use less huge brawls/combats, and like roleplay. And my players generally like to have heavy themed characters, we only end up with one combat heavy, so it gets bogged down (in my opinion) in combats when everyone generally has one pass, and he has three every combat.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JoeNapalm on <05-04-13/2040:35>
Consider that leaving behind even brass is a way to be traced, unless you scrubbed each shell with gasoline or bleach, or whatever your preferred agent is (gas probably not so much). When they were testing the AK-47 out initially they were instructed to pick up every bit of brass so the project wouldn't be leaked. Now mags are allot more specific, and if somehow you don't have footage or something similar you've got something hard to go off of from a number of different angles.

As far as it taking that much extra time to keep it all together, it shouldn't but, as you stated earlier JN the action phase is at the very least full of quantum anomalies. I think they should shrink how much time an Action is from 3 seconds to one to better reflect un-augmented human capability.

Caseless ammunition is much more common in 2070 than cased - Revolvers still use brass, but they don't spit it out.

I would strongly recommend against scrubbing your rounds with gasoline or bleach. Or any liquid, but certainly not gasoline or bleach. You don't want solvents, especially flammable solvents near your ammo.

Best case scenario, they gunk up the powder or the firing mechanism.

Worst case scenario?

Think this through. You want to scrub you bullets with gasoline, stack them up in a magazine, then load them into a firearm. They're called "firearms" because of all the fire.

When the gun fires, exploding flaming hot gasses push the bullet down the barrel. They also cycle the chamber open on top of your magazine, so there's one potentially bad situation, as your entire magazine catches on fire.

These explosions also make the chamber very hot, so if you feed the next round in, and you have a second scenario for unwanted flaming explosives going on in your weapon.

Use caseless. Wear gloves. Don't have a SIN or Records On File. (Everybody's worried about prints...most Shadowrunners aren't in the system to begin with.)


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Simon Le Bonbon on <05-06-13/0431:33>
Has anyone made any houserules about knowledge skill groups? I have been thinking about introducing such groups, like:

Biology group (botany, genetics, virology, zoology)

One rank for a knowledge skill group might cost half of the cost of a rank in an active skill group... is this a totally dead idea, what do you think?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <05-06-13/0438:15>
There is already a biology skill that would cover everything you mentioned.  As for the general premise, it's not bad.  It'd have to be something wider, though.  Like "Security", which would cover security related knowledge skill.  The problem is that the knowledge skill list was left short and incomplete to encourage making up your own... so any knowledge skill group would have to be made up along with the component skills that it contains.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Medicineman on <05-06-13/0440:46>
knowledge Skills can be as broad or as narrow as You want it to be
F.E. Area Knowledge   the World (Where is Russia, where is Japan)
Area Knowledge US of A (Which Cities are at the East Coast)
Area Knowledge 42nd Street of New York (Where do I get cheap Food )

Even Biology is a Knowledgeskill by itself so its no use to make a Skill into a group

with a broad Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Mason on <05-07-13/1752:23>
Yes, I made a rule for that. Let me pull up my files...

Quote from genericfantasyname's (my online identity elsewhere) private files:

"House rule: New grouping of cost, Knowledge Skill groups, have a karma cost of new rating times 3 or 2 creation Knowledge Points per rank. Any group of knowledge skills can be considered a group with GM permission. For example, Yakuza Operations would encompass their safehouses, drugrunning, prostitution rings, and wars, for example. All groups contain 4 specific skills, and additional skills under the heading may be added at a cost of 2 Karma or 1 BP per skill. The gamemaster will limit the amount of knowledge covered by any one skill group as he sees fit."
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Dracain on <07-13-13/1449:07>
I wrote this down on another thread I started, trying to balance out Mystic Adepts in relation to Mages and Adepts.  I am gonna try this soon, and so far it seems really good on paper, keeping the whole "jack of all trades, master of none" feel to it. 

The idea is that we split an MAs magic between the adept and mage side, but here is how we do it.  We split the magic in half (round down for the mages side) and then add 1, for example, a MA with 3 magic would have 2 mages for casting spells, and 2.5 magic for PP.  They would have PP from magic in chargen and throughout the game, just as normal adepts do.  This would mean that early on, adepts are able to keep up to their piers in both sides, but as they advanced, learning more advanced techniques from both takes more time then just focusing on one.  This keeps the balance between the two sides, without leaving the MA heavily underpowered (I think, I haven't had a chance to test this yet). 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <07-13-13/1508:24>
I wrote this down on another thread I started, trying to balance out Mystic Adepts in relation to Mages and Adepts.  I am gonna try this soon, and so far it seems really good on paper, keeping the whole "jack of all trades, master of none" feel to it. 

The idea is that we split an MAs magic between the adept and mage side, but here is how we do it.  We split the magic in half (round down for the mages side) and then add 1, for example, a MA with 3 magic would have 2 mages for casting spells, and 2.5 magic for PP.  They would have PP from magic in chargen and throughout the game, just as normal adepts do.  This would mean that early on, adepts are able to keep up to their piers in both sides, but as they advanced, learning more advanced techniques from both takes more time then just focusing on one.  This keeps the balance between the two sides, without leaving the MA heavily underpowered (I think, I haven't had a chance to test this yet).

This is what was done before that led to the controversy surrounding Mystic Adepts. As such, it would only return the old problems.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Dracain on <07-13-13/1536:10>
I wrote this down on another thread I started, trying to balance out Mystic Adepts in relation to Mages and Adepts.  I am gonna try this soon, and so far it seems really good on paper, keeping the whole "jack of all trades, master of none" feel to it. 

The idea is that we split an MAs magic between the adept and mage side, but here is how we do it.  We split the magic in half (round down for the mages side) and then add 1, for example, a MA with 3 magic would have 2 mages for casting spells, and 2.5 magic for PP.  They would have PP from magic in chargen and throughout the game, just as normal adepts do.  This would mean that early on, adepts are able to keep up to their piers in both sides, but as they advanced, learning more advanced techniques from both takes more time then just focusing on one.  This keeps the balance between the two sides, without leaving the MA heavily underpowered (I think, I haven't had a chance to test this yet).

This is what was done before that led to the controversy surrounding Mystic Adepts. As such, it would only return the old problems.
Wait, wasn't what was done before that mystic adepts split their magic attribute between their magic-user and adept sides, choosing the ratio?  This idea is more the formula Magic/2+1.  Whereas you need whole numbers for the magic side, you round down, you don't do so for the adept side, as adept abilities can cost 0.XX PP.  My first edition of Shadowrun was 4th, so I don't really know about before, but in 4th, I thought the idea was that when an adept gained a magic attribute point, they put it into the mage side (spells & such) or the adept side (PP for abilities), meaning that if you split them evenly (and not everyone would) then a MA with 6 magic would have 3 for spells and 3 for PP, and when their magic went up to 7 it would be either 4/3 or 3/4.  My idea would leave a MA with 6 magic with 4 for spells and 4 for PP, but the split would be even every time, and when they go up to 7 it would be 4.5/4.5, but since spells use whole numbers, for simplicity we could just say 4/4.5. 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on <07-13-13/2031:16>
Your way is close enough to it to still recreate the problem.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Dracain on <07-14-13/0542:14>
Fair enough, I was hoping it would be like the other way, but with a power boost to keep them from being underpowered, but I see your point, and I admit I don't know much about MAs, so thanks for pointing out the flaws. 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Big John Sexy on <07-24-13/1522:55>
When I run my SR5th game, I plan on using a simple mechanic for determining if a contact is available. Connection rating minus the loyalty rating to a minimum of 1 on 2d6. Snake eyes always means the contact is unavailable at that moment. You could also throw in any situational modifier you think might apply regarding that contact (being targeted for something, plot blocking, etc.) I think it makes sense since a connection rating 12 contact is going to be exceptionally unavailable, so a loyalty rating 1 connection rating 12 (not likely to happen) is still accessible, but it will be really rare to do so. It's kind of a measure of how likely a contact is to take your call at the time, situation not withstanding. Thus a level 6 Conn/Loyalty contact will only be unavailable on a pair of 1's or when the GM deems it appropriate to the situation.

Just my thoughts I guess.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Ryo on <07-29-13/1409:06>
Want to make Aspected Magicians less terrible, so that a player would actually choose to pick one.

First, they get Astral Projection. Don't know why they lost that in the first place.

Second, change the priorities to the following:

Priority C: Magic 3, one rating 3 Magical Skill Group, 1 spell or 1 bound spirit with 3 services
Priority B: Magic 5, one rating 4 Magical Skill Group, 2 spells or 2 bound spirits with 4 services
Priority A: Magic 6, one rating 6 Magical Skill Group, 3 spells or 3 bound spirits with 5 services

And third, since Aspected Magicians are completely focused on one aspect of magic, they are able to command that magic more efficiently. They get +2 dice to resist drain.

The Karma comes out to a slight advantage for Aspected Magician at each priority, and in exchange for losing two aspects of magic, they get +2 drain on the one they picked. Seems much more balanced to me.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Abschalten on <07-30-13/1531:09>
I wrote up some extensive house rules for making technomancers viable and cool again. I posted them to Dumpshock, and had the foresight to do it right before the forums went down, so as of yet I've received no feedback. Since this is a house rules thread, I'll post a link to my document. Right now it's 13 pages and a bit over 5,000 words, so I'm a little hesitant to post it directly into the thread.

Technomancer Redux (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/91128141/Technomancer%20Redux%20v1.0.rtf)

Any feedback wound be appreciated, and I intend to add other things to the rules later (I have some new quality ideas, and some new fluff I'd like to incorporate as well, among other things.)

This does increase technomancer power levels a little bit, and might even edge them ahead of mundane deckers over time (after enough karma.) My assumption is that as future books come out with more decker options and 'ware, the playing field will more than likely even out a little bit.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crunch on <07-30-13/1605:01>
I believe I'll be houseruling crashing damage in my games to (Speed Rating+Body or Barrier Rating of point of impact - Body of vehicle). It's still abstract, but gives a more realistic result than the current rule (in which damage is based on the body of the crashing vehicle, meaning a crash in a motorcylce will almost never kill the rider, while a crash in a Bulldog frequently will.)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Ryo on <07-30-13/1913:41>
I wrote up some extensive house rules for making technomancers viable and cool again. I posted them to Dumpshock, and had the foresight to do it right before the forums went down, so as of yet I've received no feedback. Since this is a house rules thread, I'll post a link to my document. Right now it's 13 pages and a bit over 5,000 words, so I'm a little hesitant to post it directly into the thread.

Technomancer Redux (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/91128141/Technomancer%20Redux%20v1.0.rtf)

Any feedback wound be appreciated, and I intend to add other things to the rules later (I have some new quality ideas, and some new fluff I'd like to incorporate as well, among other things.)

This does increase technomancer power levels a little bit, and might even edge them ahead of mundane deckers over time (after enough karma.) My assumption is that as future books come out with more decker options and 'ware, the playing field will more than likely even out a little bit.

The idea of Technomancer powers ala adept powers is an interesting one worth pursuing, but I disagree with your portrayal of technomancers as apparently completely in control of their own physiology, able to rebuild their bodies and basically grow new organs and such. There is no reason for that, and it seriously detracts from the Technomancer ideal in my opinion. IE, an Echo to be able to connect via direct connection just by holding the end of a plug or shoving your finger into a port is a good idea; having them spontaneously grow a port in their bodies is not.

I also completely disagree with Enhancements to mimic cyberware, both from a balance standpoint and for the reasons I just stated. It is utterly ridiculous to give a Technomancer the ability to just grow themselves cybernetic enhancements that do not cost essence. A Technomancer equivalent of Wired Reflexes can exist, much like the Improved Reflexes power or Increased Reflexes spell, but outright saying the Technomancer basically reconstructs their own spinal cord to make a biological copy of Wired Reflexes is absurd.

I also strongly disagree with Buffer and Defragmentation, as the real world damage technomancers receive from using their abilities is their main drawback. You also don't specify with Buffer that it doesn't work for Resonance actions, so it'd be very easy for a player to abuse this system to Mitigate or completely ignore Fading.

Sprite Mastery also seems a bit ridiculous, since it effectively doubles the effect of submergence on Sprite levels. They are able to raise their Resonance, which increases it, and Sprite Mastery increases it too, for a 2 for 1 special. Is there a similar Metamagic for Spirit Summoning? Because I've never seen it.

Blind the Eye + Static Veil = Overwatch? What's that?

I don't think I have to explain why Rootkit is broken as all get out.

Solid State is good, but it's basically just Centering, which is a good idea for Technomancers the same way its a good idea for magicians.

I'm not touching Respec with a 10 foot pole.

Don't see why Cleaner needed these changes.

Diffusion of Matrix Attribute is Permanent? Seriously? And with lower fading on top of that.

I get the inclusion of rules for live-feed editing to Editor. I do not get the decreased fading.

Infusion similarly broken like Diffusion.

Why are you decreasing Fading across the board?

Overall the only thing I like about this is the idea of giving Technomancers a Power Point system to achieve more without needing to Submerge for all their benefits. But everything else you've done here seems unnecessary and just makes Technomancers grossly more powerful.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: RHat on <07-30-13/2312:38>
Want to make Aspected Magicians less terrible, so that a player would actually choose to pick one.

First, they get Astral Projection. Don't know why they lost that in the first place.

Second, change the priorities to the following:

Priority C: Magic 3, one rating 3 Magical Skill Group, 1 spell or 1 bound spirit with 3 services
Priority B: Magic 5, one rating 4 Magical Skill Group, 2 spells or 2 bound spirits with 4 services
Priority A: Magic 6, one rating 6 Magical Skill Group, 3 spells or 3 bound spirits with 5 services

And third, since Aspected Magicians are completely focused on one aspect of magic, they are able to command that magic more efficiently. They get +2 dice to resist drain.

The Karma comes out to a slight advantage for Aspected Magician at each priority, and in exchange for losing two aspects of magic, they get +2 drain on the one they picked. Seems much more balanced to me.

Conjurers are still a little screwed here, but that's just because spending Karma on spirit services is pretty pointless.  Perhaps spirit foci are a good alternative?

Why are you decreasing Fading across the board?

Probably because Fading costs are far too high across the board.  For example, there is fundamentally no reason for Puppeteer to have a Fading code that is 5 points higher than the Drain code of the much more powerful Control Thoughts.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Abschalten on <07-31-13/0742:04>
The idea of Technomancer powers ala adept powers is an interesting one worth pursuing, but I disagree with your portrayal of technomancers as apparently completely in control of their own physiology, able to rebuild their bodies and basically grow new organs and such. There is no reason for that, and it seriously detracts from the Technomancer ideal in my opinion. IE, an Echo to be able to connect via direct connection just by holding the end of a plug or shoving your finger into a port is a good idea; having them spontaneously grow a port in their bodies is not.

Alright. A dissenter. That's fine! Again, I welcome criticism. I'll try to address your points.

Technomancers have had some degree of control over the way their abilities manifest at least since Unwired, and so I continued that trend. I assume that you don't roll dice to randomly determine what powers your characters develop; awakened and emerged characters can work towards that end as well. The Resonance is more than just some mystical force behind wireless signals. It has to deal with the Matrix in general, including devices that can only be connected to via a datajack. Indeed, the precursors to the technomancers, the otaku, had to get datajacks in order to use their abilities. Datajacks that, I might add, lower a technomancer's Resonance now, and thus harms their abilities. So I give them a way -- at a cost -- to avoid losing their Essence and their Resonance, but still be able to interface with wired devices.

Quote
I also completely disagree with Enhancements to mimic cyberware, both from a balance standpoint and for the reasons I just stated. It is utterly ridiculous to give a Technomancer the ability to just grow themselves cybernetic enhancements that do not cost essence. A Technomancer equivalent of Wired Reflexes can exist, much like the Improved Reflexes power or Increased Reflexes spell, but outright saying the Technomancer basically reconstructs their own spinal cord to make a biological copy of Wired Reflexes is absurd.

But they already did this in Unwired.  I'm not saying honest-to-goodness real cyberware shows up in their bodies, only that the physical and biochemical changes in their physiologies is enough to copy those effects. Look again at the Acceleration Echoes and their effects. Or its prerequisite, Biowire. Or the unrated complex forms, Simrig and Smartlink. How again are technomancers not already able to do this in the game world? And in order to get Wired Reflexes I, they have to use two Resonance Points and submerge. To get WR3, they have to submerge three times and use FIVE Resonance Points. Assuming you start off at Resonance 6, that's 168 karma, far more than it would take to initiate the four times to get Biowire and the three ranks of Acceleration.

Quote
I also strongly disagree with Buffer and Defragmentation, as the real world damage technomancers receive from using their abilities is their main drawback. You also don't specify with Buffer that it doesn't work for Resonance actions, so it'd be very easy for a player to abuse this system to Mitigate or completely ignore Fading.

If you... disagree with Defragmentation, you disagree with just a rehash of an Echo from Unwired, in SR4. I just retooled it a little bit and wrote it out because I think it's a solid inclusion. If you compare Defragmentation from SR4 to my write-up of it, I have actually nerfed it.

I will take your feedback into consideration for Buffer and explicitly state it does not mitigate Fading. But my main concern when I was writing up Buffer was for databombs, the single biggest threat to a technomancer's life and health (even more than IC, or even GOD). A bad (good?) roll on a databomb is enough to instantly gib your technomancer, even if it's not a remarkably powerful one. The worst that can happen to a decker is he has to work on his commlink for a few hours. The worst that can happen to a technomancer is you start rolling up another character.

Quote
Sprite Mastery also seems a bit ridiculous, since it effectively doubles the effect of submergence on Sprite levels. They are able to raise their Resonance, which increases it, and Sprite Mastery increases it too, for a 2 for 1 special. Is there a similar Metamagic for Spirit Summoning? Because I've never seen it.

But have you seen the tricks that magicians can do with drams of reagents? Or with the various foci they can sink karma into? Because those definitely help magicians and shamans summon more powerful spirits, and technomancers have no recourse in this regard. A powerful spirit can destroy an opposing runner team or TPK your entire Shadowrun group. A sufficiently powerful sprite can make your commlink not work. See the difference?

Quote
Blind the Eye + Static Veil = Overwatch? What's that?

Overwatch is that score you run up pretty quickly when you're not sitting around twiddling your thumbs in any host that matters. When every one of your rolls get opposed by a ridiculous host Matrix attribute and backed up by a smart admin's settings, you'll burn through those extra points awful fast. Don't believe me? Try some test rolls against rating 8+ hosts, and tell me how quickly those points add up.

Quote
I don't think I have to explain why Rootkit is broken as all get out.

Well, that doesn't give me much to work on, and I won't presume that I can read your mind.

Quote
Solid State is good, but it's basically just Centering, which is a good idea for Technomancers the same way its a good idea for magicians.

Yep! Exactly why I wrote it up.

Quote
I'm not touching Respec with a 10 foot pole.

Okay.

Quote
Don't see why Cleaner needed these changes.

Because as of right now it's useless. The Fading was too high for something that might lower your OS by a measly point or two, and you had to sit around for multiple entire Combat Turns to get that benefit. In addition, it broke the rules in its own description, saying it was a Simple Action -- so you could (weirdly enough) cast two of these things in one turn, sustain both of them, and sit around waiting for them to take permanent effect. Why not just take up the whole turn and give it the benefit of a single, combined shot?

Quote
Diffusion of Matrix Attribute is Permanent? Seriously? And with lower fading on top of that.

It is Permanent in the regard that after a time you no longer have to sustain the effect. But Permanent does not mean "forever." As soon as the device reboots or the proper amount of time has passed, all is in the original configuration. Keep in mind that Diffusion is resisted, and you have to pump up the Level of the complex form to get any affect whatsoever.

Quote
I get the inclusion of rules for live-feed editing to Editor. I do not get the decreased fading.

Edit File is a Data Processing action, meaning it will never alert the host, and it will never piss off GOD. You can do it all the live long day (at least until your time runs out and GOD converges, but even that will take a while.) Why am I going to make a technomancer risk alot of Fading for something that is virtually risk-free?

Quote
Infusion similarly broken like Diffusion.

How? You still have to cast it at a minimum Level of the original Attribute's rating? And again, it doesn't last forever.

Quote
Why are you decreasing Fading across the board?

Because commensurate effects in other parts of the game have much less risk for much more benefit. Most of the complex forms written as-is are, frankly, quite crap. Now, I'd take damn near any of them.

I'll even give you my favorite example: Stitches. Stitches allows you to heal a sprite for boxes of Matrix damage. It also originally had a FV of L-2. For healing a sprite. Compare that to the actual honest-to-goodness Heal spell that spellcasters get. Your buddy gets shot with a gun and is on death's door, and you can heal him. The Drain Value on that is F-4. With a Heal spell I can target any physical, living thing and heal damage done to them, possibly saving lives (and PCs. Your friends probably like their characters.) With Stitches I can knit a sprite back together. And you're telling me that it should be worth a whole 2 extra boxes of Fading, even despite its vastly limited utility? I don't buy that one bit. In fact, I think making Stitches' FV EQUAL to Heal's DV is being awfully generous.

Quote
Overall the only thing I like about this is the idea of giving Technomancers a Power Point system to achieve more without needing to Submerge for all their benefits. But everything else you've done here seems unnecessary and just makes Technomancers grossly more powerful.

If by "more powerful" you mean "technomancers can actually do stuff," then I think you're right. First off, keep in mind that technomancers were my favorite part of the game in SR4, and so I took it as an affront that they were essentially emasculated and made useless. Other folks who are writing new rules and fixes for the game are being motivated by the parts that bother them. For example, some people are rebalancing cyberware for price and effect. Some folks are rewriting weird vehicle rules. In the end I choose the part that bothered me the most and I decided to be proactive and write some rules that I felt made technomancers fun to play again.

I've made technomancer metamagic analogs function similarly to the way that they do for other awakened: they are actually (for the most part) WORTH taking, and they get better over time as the character initiates. Currently their selection of options upon initiation is limited to what are essentially overpriced adept powers. If you are going to spend the karma to submerge, you ought to get something substantial in return for that. Any of the enhancements I just wrote up are many times better than the individual Echoes you could pick up in their place.

The technomancer that I think you are fearing is one with about 500 karma under his belt using these rules. In reality, I've never gotten higher than Grade 2 with any awakened or emerged character. In the Shadowrun game that I GMd for two real life years, my players got to about 150 karma before they collectively decided to retire. If I spent every bit of that on technomancer submersions and Resonance increases, I wouldn't get very far, wouldn't have a very high grade, and my skills still won't be where the mundane hacker's will be, since he can take less than that 150 karma and get that 12 in his Hacking skill, on top of his top-end cyberdeck and the 'ware he has implanted in his body.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: thinklibertarian on <07-31-13/1223:20>
Based on my readings of the rules and threads here on this forum and others, I've come up with these house rules until some sort of official errata is released.

* A commlink, dataterminal, cyberdeck, and RCC can run a number of programs equal to its device rating, but can store any number of them.

* The software rating can't exceed the device rating of what it runs on. For example, you can't run a rating 6 agent on a rating 1 commlink. Typically, you purchase the software at the same rating as the device, but you can purchase lower rated software to save money.

* Commlinks (and presumably dataterminals) can't run cyberprograms; only cyberdecks and RCC's can.

* Rigger Command Consoles can run a number of programs equal to its device rating. This has no effect on the number of shared Autosofts running and Noise Reduction rating.


Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Ryo on <07-31-13/1501:33>
Technomancers have had some degree of control over the way their abilities manifest at least since Unwired, and so I continued that trend. I assume that you don't roll dice to randomly determine what powers your characters develop; awakened and emerged characters can work towards that end as well. The Resonance is more than just some mystical force behind wireless signals. It has to deal with the Matrix in general, including devices that can only be connected to via a datajack. Indeed, the precursors to the technomancers, the otaku, had to get datajacks in order to use their abilities. Datajacks that, I might add, lower a technomancer's Resonance now, and thus harms their abilities. So I give them a way -- at a cost -- to avoid losing their Essence and their Resonance, but still be able to interface with wired devices.

That's why I said give them the ability to access a dataport by sticking their finger in it, or grabbing the wire. They don't need to spontaneously grow a new organ in order to interface with the matrix. You could have just gone with the old Skinlink Echo here to achieve the same result.

Quote
But they already did this in Unwired.  I'm not saying honest-to-goodness real cyberware shows up in their bodies, only that the physical and biochemical changes in their physiologies is enough to copy those effects. Look again at the Acceleration Echoes and their effects. Or its prerequisite, Biowire. Or the unrated complex forms, Simrig and Smartlink. How again are technomancers not already able to do this in the game world? And in order to get Wired Reflexes I, they have to use two Resonance Points and submerge. To get WR3, they have to submerge three times and use FIVE Resonance Points. Assuming you start off at Resonance 6, that's 168 karma, far more than it would take to initiate the four times to get Biowire and the three ranks of Acceleration.

The Biowire echo is simply described as the ability to modulate the neuro-electrical and neuro-muscular network of their own body, basically just slightly modifying how their nerves interact with eachother and their muscles in order to effectively mimic a skillwire. They do not grown a new nervous system. Acceleration just does exactly what it sounds like: accelerates neural impulses. The difference between what you are describing and how these echoes are described are the same difference between hardware and software. These echoes just change how the data moves through a technomancer's body, which is software. You're having them make large-scale physiological changes to their internal organs, which is hardware. Stick with Software.

But skillwires and wired reflexes aren't the real problem with this enhancement. As you said, mimicing those already existed in unwired. The problem is that you are opening the floodgates for a huge chunk of the cyberware suite available, with minimum restrictions and no essence cost. If there is a specific cyberware option that sounds like a technomancer should be able to do it, make that a separate enhancement or echo. A blanket power like this is just too all-encompassing and diminishes cyberware.

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If you... disagree with Defragmentation, you disagree with just a rehash of an Echo from Unwired, in SR4. I just retooled it a little bit and wrote it out because I think it's a solid inclusion. If you compare Defragmentation from SR4 to my write-up of it, I have actually nerfed it.

Not really. Defrag in Unwired didn't work on Black IC or Fading, yours works on Black IC. You specify Stun only, which is implied anyway by the unwired Defrag since the only way to take Physical damage as a technomancer in 4th was Black IC and Fading. Your stun track would fill up first and dump you from the matrix before you took any physical damage from matrix attacks (and hot-sim dumpshock doesn't count for Defrag, because it isn't Living Persona damage). Defrag in Unwired was also an extended test with an interval of 1 Combat Turn. Yours isn't. You also give a dice pool bonus equal to submersion bonus, which Unwired didn't. Unwired specifies that you cannot perform any other actions while Defragging, and you don't.

I'm seriously not seeing how you nerfed it.

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I will take your feedback into consideration for Buffer and explicitly state it does not mitigate Fading. But my main concern when I was writing up Buffer was for databombs, the single biggest threat to a technomancer's life and health (even more than IC, or even GOD). A bad (good?) roll on a databomb is enough to instantly gib your technomancer, even if it's not a remarkably powerful one. The worst that can happen to a decker is he has to work on his commlink for a few hours. The worst that can happen to a technomancer is you start rolling up another character.

A technomancer can just summon up a Sprite to deal with databombs, just like a hacker can use an agent for it. If your main concern was Databombs, give them an enhancement specific to Data Bombs, like the Defuse program (which they can already duplicate with a different echo) or a Complex Form.

A Complex Form is probably a much better way to go about it. Have them thread up a buffer of redundant resonance constructs that soak up harmful code before it can hit their living persona, effectively giving them a number of extra damage boxes of a matrix condition track equal to the hits they get. The difference being they have to Sustain this, so they don't just grab an enhancement at submersion that instantly makes them practically immune to matrix damage from all sources.

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But have you seen the tricks that magicians can do with drams of reagents? Or with the various foci they can sink karma into? Because those definitely help magicians and shamans summon more powerful spirits, and technomancers have no recourse in this regard. A powerful spirit can destroy an opposing runner team or TPK your entire Shadowrun group. A sufficiently powerful sprite can make your commlink not work. See the difference?

Neither Drams nor Foci change the rule of greater than magic equals physical drain, and both of those examples are significantly more expensive than just taking a metamagic at initiation, you may notice. If you want to give technomancers an equivalent to drams and foci, then give them an equivalent to drams and foci. Don't essentially make a metamagic that does what they do, but better.

Make your commlink not work? You mean bricking every piece of gear your team has, and killing the technomancer outright because they don't have a matrix condition track. And after it does that, it can call security to your position, or skip the middle man, hack the defensive turrets, and pump bullets into your squishy bodies. A super powerful out of control sprite is just as capable of making a run go south as an out of control spirit.

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Overwatch is that score you run up pretty quickly when you're not sitting around twiddling your thumbs in any host that matters. When every one of your rolls get opposed by a ridiculous host Matrix attribute and backed up by a smart admin's settings, you'll burn through those extra points awful fast. Don't believe me? Try some test rolls against rating 8+ hosts, and tell me how quickly those points add up.

I know what Overwatch is, I was making a joke. Technomancers can already disable the automatic time limit with sustaining Static Veil. Giving them Blind the Eye on top of that means they can very rapidly never worry about overwatch again, especially when you add Cleaner to that list as well, considering how you made it Instant and a lot easier on the fading.

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Well, that doesn't give me much to work on, and I won't presume that I can read your mind.

So I do have to explain why Rootkit is broken? Okay. This single enhancement gives a technomancer all of the following:

An uncapped, potentially unlimited dice pool bonus to all Sleaze actions.
An uncapped, potentially unlimited dice pool bonus to the opposed Resonance Veil test.
The ability to run silently without a -2 dice pool penalty.


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Because as of right now it's useless. The Fading was too high for something that might lower your OS by a measly point or two, and you had to sit around for multiple entire Combat Turns to get that benefit. In addition, it broke the rules in its own description, saying it was a Simple Action -- so you could (weirdly enough) cast two of these things in one turn, sustain both of them, and sit around waiting for them to take permanent effect. Why not just take up the whole turn and give it the benefit of a single, combined shot?

A Simple Test is not the same thing as a Simple Action. It's another way of saying Success Test. And Cleaner takes effect immediately, you just have to keep sustaining it for [Level] Combat Turns for it to stick. This prevents you from just spamming Cleaner every pass until your Overwatch is 0, which every technomancer who has a spare moment will do with the version you provide, thanks to it also being cheaper in fading.

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It is Permanent in the regard that after a time you no longer have to sustain the effect. But Permanent does not mean "forever." As soon as the device reboots or the proper amount of time has passed, all is in the original configuration. Keep in mind that Diffusion is resisted, and you have to pump up the Level of the complex form to get any affect whatsoever.

And that is broken. Diffusion is the exact same thing as the Decrease [Attribute] Spell, which is not only harder to cast successfully, but is also sustained. You could cast Diffusion of Firewall at Level 1, spend a point of edge to have no limit, soak the 2 DV fading, make it permanent, and then feel free to do it again, now against a weaker Firewall, probably without even needing to spend edge this time. And then you do it again. And again. And then you switch to their other attributes. You do not specify that it doesn't stack, and 1 hour is a hell of a long time when a technomancer can use this thing up to 5 times per 3 seconds, so a technomancer could very easily drop a host to 1's across the board, and then log out and take a nap if he happened to take any fading and let his decker buddy curbstomp the host into submission.

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Edit File is a Data Processing action, meaning it will never alert the host, and it will never piss off GOD. You can do it all the live long day (at least until your time runs out and GOD converges, but even that will take a while.) Why am I going to make a technomancer risk alot of Fading for something that is virtually risk-free?

Because it doesn't require any marks and is resisted with Data Processing instead of Firewall.

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How? You still have to cast it at a minimum Level of the original Attribute's rating? And again, it doesn't last forever.

Technomancer Infuses his Decker buddy's cyberdeck until he manages to double all his attributes, then goes to take a nap while the Decker curbstomps something.

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Because commensurate effects in other parts of the game have much less risk for much more benefit. Most of the complex forms written as-is are, frankly, quite crap. Now, I'd take damn near any of them.

I'll even give you my favorite example: Stitches. Stitches allows you to heal a sprite for boxes of Matrix damage. It also originally had a FV of L-2. For healing a sprite. Compare that to the actual honest-to-goodness Heal spell that spellcasters get. Your buddy gets shot with a gun and is on death's door, and you can heal him. The Drain Value on that is F-4. With a Heal spell I can target any physical, living thing and heal damage done to them, possibly saving lives (and PCs. Your friends probably like their characters.) With Stitches I can knit a sprite back together. And you're telling me that it should be worth a whole 2 extra boxes of Fading, even despite its vastly limited utility? I don't buy that one bit. In fact, I think making Stitches' FV EQUAL to Heal's DV is being awfully generous.

You don't have to run up and lay hands on the sprite to Stitch it. There is no concept of range for Complex Forms, which spells do have to deal with. Not to mention that Stitch can be used repeatedly to return a Sprite to 100%, Heal cannot.

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If by "more powerful" you mean "technomancers can actually do stuff," then I think you're right. First off, keep in mind that technomancers were my favorite part of the game in SR4, and so I took it as an affront that they were essentially emasculated and made useless. Other folks who are writing new rules and fixes for the game are being motivated by the parts that bother them. For example, some people are rebalancing cyberware for price and effect. Some folks are rewriting weird vehicle rules. In the end I choose the part that bothered me the most and I decided to be proactive and write some rules that I felt made technomancers fun to play again.

I've made technomancer metamagic analogs function similarly to the way that they do for other awakened: they are actually (for the most part) WORTH taking, and they get better over time as the character initiates. Currently their selection of options upon initiation is limited to what are essentially overpriced adept powers. If you are going to spend the karma to submerge, you ought to get something substantial in return for that. Any of the enhancements I just wrote up are many times better than the individual Echoes you could pick up in their place.

The technomancer that I think you are fearing is one with about 500 karma under his belt using these rules. In reality, I've never gotten higher than Grade 2 with any awakened or emerged character. In the Shadowrun game that I GMd for two real life years, my players got to about 150 karma before they collectively decided to retire. If I spent every bit of that on technomancer submersions and Resonance increases, I wouldn't get very far, wouldn't have a very high grade, and my skills still won't be where the mundane hacker's will be, since he can take less than that 150 karma and get that 12 in his Hacking skill, on top of his top-end cyberdeck and the 'ware he has implanted in his body.

I personally found the changes from 4th to 5th rather refreshing, since 4th made technomancers inherently superior to hackers in every conceivable way, to the point they were virtually unstoppable by enemy hackers. Some cases, literally, because a hacker couldn't hack or spoof a Technomancer command since they have no resonance, and you had silly situations like people slaving all their gear to the Technomancer, making it unhackable by anyone but another technomancer.

Probably because Fading costs are far too high across the board.  For example, there is fundamentally no reason for Puppeteer to have a Fading code that is 5 points higher than the Drain code of the much more powerful Control Thoughts.

I don't think you understand the full potential ridiculousness of Puppeteer. You can make them perform any Matrix Action, and unlike magic, there is no equivalent 'noticing resonance' system in place, so nobody even necessarily realizes you did it. Here are just a few examples of why Puppeteer is ridiculous, and fully deserves +4 Fading.

Jack Out: It's a Simple Action, so the threshold is only 2. You force them to jackout and hit them with dumpshock.

Invite Mark: Also a Simple Action, for a threshold of 2. And when you make the offer, you choose how many marks it is, so with 1 Complex Action, you can force an opponent to give you 3 marks, something that's normally a -10 penalty on Brute Force or Hack on the Fly.

Format Device: Threshold 3 that basically bricks their device on reboot and takes hours to fix. Make them do this to themselves to get around the 3 marks you'd need and the defense test, then follow it up with...

Reboot Device: Threshold 3, they reboot themselves, erase all their marks, suffer dumpshock, and if you did Format first, are effectively gone for the remainder of the run.

Disarm Data Bomb: Make them blow themselves up instead of you.

And perhaps most Insidious of all...

Switch Interface Mode: Simple Action, so it's a Threshold of 2. You do this in Meat Space to dump anybody who's got a DNI into VR, causing them to collapse and become helpless long enough for an ally to kill them, or for them to die from the environment.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: RHat on <07-31-13/1743:38>
Probably because Fading costs are far too high across the board.  For example, there is fundamentally no reason for Puppeteer to have a Fading code that is 5 points higher than the Drain code of the much more powerful Control Thoughts.

I don't think you understand the full potential ridiculousness of Puppeteer. You can make them perform any Matrix Action, and unlike magic, there is no equivalent 'noticing resonance' system in place, so nobody even necessarily realizes you did it. Here are just a few examples of why Puppeteer is ridiculous, and fully deserves +4 Fading.

Jack Out: It's a Simple Action, so the threshold is only 2. You force them to jackout and hit them with dumpshock.

Invite Mark: Also a Simple Action, for a threshold of 2. And when you make the offer, you choose how many marks it is, so with 1 Complex Action, you can force an opponent to give you 3 marks, something that's normally a -10 penalty on Brute Force or Hack on the Fly.

Format Device: Threshold 3 that basically bricks their device on reboot and takes hours to fix. Make them do this to themselves to get around the 3 marks you'd need and the defense test, then follow it up with...

Reboot Device: Threshold 3, they reboot themselves, erase all their marks, suffer dumpshock, and if you did Format first, are effectively gone for the remainder of the run.

Disarm Data Bomb: Make them blow themselves up instead of you.

And perhaps most Insidious of all...

Switch Interface Mode: Simple Action, so it's a Threshold of 2. You do this in Meat Space to dump anybody who's got a DNI into VR, causing them to collapse and become helpless long enough for an ally to kill them, or for them to die from the environment.

Oh, Puppeteer is certainly powerful.  It is, however, a good step less powerful than Control Thoughts - which can actually do ALL of that, along with a lot more; those actions are very much on the TAME side for Control Thoughts (which could also include such things as "detonate all your grenades").  Either the Mental Manipulations have Drain codes that are far too low, or Puppeteer has a Fading code that is far too high.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: WorkOver on <08-02-13/2018:42>
I am going to double the base cost of a cyberlimb, remove all stat sheninagans, your strength and agility are your strength and agility.
+1 to unarmed damage per pair of full cyber limbs, or 3/4 cyber limb. +1 to condition modifier per cyber limb, 3/4 cyber limb, torso or skull.  Use red-Lining rules from 4a.

Hands are +4 to the strength of crushing attacks due to your arm being a robot arm.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-07-13/1808:31>
So far my house rules are.

1: Strength based damage is 1 + 1/2 strength round up.
2. critical strike has multiple levels
3. Mystic adepts are currently banned until i can come up with something.
4.  Any wireless bonus that is speed based can be gained through any DNI connection all cyber is assumed to have a dni to itself, wired and reaction enhancers stack normally. 
5.  Ritual magic: # of minions is limited by logic not charisma
6: Astral combat is tied to your logic not your willpower as logic reflects your astral agility.

The last two are to add some balance to shamans vs hermetics as right now shamans get all the benefits tied to magic. 

Not really a house rule but a guideline.  Force 5+ spirits use edge to resist summons and binding.  If you are on good terms with that type of spirit it is force 6+, if you have spirit affinity for that type it is 6+ if you are both on good terms and have spirit affinity it is 7+

What is considered good terms is based on your tradition.  Ordering elementals around is expected elementals see it as a sign of strength and respect it, showing weakness is not respected and will get you on their bad side.  Shamans on the other hand treat spirits as more as friends or mentors. 
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Basic on <08-09-13/1611:17>
Called shots house rule:

Armor bypass: Target an area not protected by armor.  If the attack hits, the targets armor
is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Ryo on <08-12-13/0303:11>
Running Silent reduces the Wireless Bonus received from any device by half.

Since Running Silent specifies that the -2 to matrix actions is due to processing power having to be devoted to keeping it hidden, and non-hackers have little to no reason to ever take Matrix Actions, this discourages every non-decker player declaring that every piece of gear they own is always running silent, thereby making enemy deckers kind of pointless.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FCBoon on <08-16-13/1804:58>
House rules.

I'm running my first shadowrun 4 campaign at the moment and tend to house rule on the fly, based on what feels right at the time. I'm a little confused over armour stacking rules, it seems that you can keep adding armour from different sources to get silly numbers, where it becomes effectively impossible to suffer physical damage (I know stun track might be less, but that's not really the point). To counter this I have ruled that only the highest armour rating counts towards determining whether an attack does physical or stun, other armour still adds dice to the soak text as normal. So far it seems to be working quite well (we had a slight scare when one of my pc's got clipped with a round from a bike mounted LMG [as far as you can get 'clipped' by an LMG hit] and took 9 boxes of physical damage), but otherwise the spilt between stun/physical seems about 50/50 and it keeps that 'danger factor' in the game. Does anyone have any thoughts on this approach?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on <08-16-13/1831:46>
I'm running my first shadowrun 4 campaign at the moment and tend to house rule on the fly, based on what feels right at the time. I'm a little confused over armour stacking rules, it seems that you can keep adding armour from different sources to get silly numbers, where it becomes effectively impossible to suffer physical damage (I know stun track might be less, but that's not really the point). To counter this I have ruled that only the highest armour rating counts towards determining whether an attack does physical or stun, other armour still adds dice to the soak text as normal. So far it seems to be working quite well (we had a slight scare when one of my pc's got clipped with a round from a bike mounted LMG [as far as you can get 'clipped' by an LMG hit] and took 9 boxes of physical damage), but otherwise the spilt between stun/physical seems about 50/50 and it keeps that 'danger factor' in the game. Does anyone have any thoughts on this approach?
We're talking about 4th, not 5th, right? Because in 4th, you add up all the armor rating points, then pick the highest of Impact and Ballistic, to determine encumbrance ( ((Armor - Body x 2)/2), rounded up, is a penalty to Agility and Reaction). while using multiple pieces of armor (with the exceptions of "+X" stuff, form-fitting armor, and combining pieces of fashion sets) don't add to your actual Armor rating or soak dice.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FCBoon on <08-16-13/1855:48>
I'm running my first shadowrun 4 campaign at the moment and tend to house rule on the fly, based on what feels right at the time. I'm a little confused over armour stacking rules, it seems that you can keep adding armour from different sources to get silly numbers, where it becomes effectively impossible to suffer physical damage (I know stun track might be less, but that's not really the point). To counter this I have ruled that only the highest armour rating counts towards determining whether an attack does physical or stun, other armour still adds dice to the soak text as normal. So far it seems to be working quite well (we had a slight scare when one of my pc's got clipped with a round from a bike mounted LMG [as far as you can get 'clipped' by an LMG hit] and took 9 boxes of physical damage), but otherwise the spilt between stun/physical seems about 50/50 and it keeps that 'danger factor' in the game. Does anyone have any thoughts on this approach?
We're talking about 4th, not 5th, right? Because in 4th, you add up all the armor rating points, then pick the highest of Impact and Ballistic, to determine encumbrance ( ((Armor - Body x 2)/2), rounded up, is a penalty to Agility and Reaction). while using multiple pieces of armor (with the exceptions of "+X" stuff, form-fitting armor, and combining pieces of fashion sets) don't add to your actual Armor rating or soak dice.


Yes, it's 4ed. I get the encumbrance rules (although I tend to think strength + body is better than 2 x body), I mean security armour + helmet + shield + arm/leg guards + firm fitting armour (plus maybe an armour spell) all adds up to a situation where your average joe security guard armed with an smg cannot cause physical damage unless he us packing APDS ammo AND gets really lucky on his to hit roll..... Am I just reading the rules wrong?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-16-13/2014:40>
Form Fitting is the only one that only partially counts for encumbrance, and MilSpec's Bodyx3 doesn't work together with ANY other armor as well as get you special attention, so the highest you can get barring MilSpec is (Bodyx2)+3 for Ballistic, or Bodyx3 with MilSpec for Body 4~6 (less with the anti-encumbrance upgrade for it). Natural Armor and Ware/Magical Armor are the only things that go above that since they don't count for encumbrance.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: FCBoon on <08-17-13/0116:53>
Form Fitting is the only one that only partially counts for encumbrance, and MilSpec's Bodyx3 doesn't work together with ANY other armor as well as get you special attention, so the highest you can get barring MilSpec is (Bodyx2)+3 for Ballistic, or Bodyx3 with MilSpec for Body 4~6 (less with the anti-encumbrance upgrade for it). Natural Armor and Ware/Magical Armor are the only things that go above that since they don't count for encumbrance.

So, one of my pc's has an ork with a body of 9. His max armour comes out at 21 (2*body)+3 including form fitting. So that's 21 ballistic plus anything from ware such as dermal plating or bone lacing...... An smg has a base damage of, what, 5? (Noting that automatic fire dv increase doesn't count) he would need 16 net hits to do physical damage!!!!! The guard  is lucky to have agility 4 smg 4, so he's lucky to hit and can never actually hurt the over..... That doesn't seem right to me.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-17-13/0534:49>
In all fairness, he's a tank. Someone who specializes in taking damage won't regularly take damage from small arms fire, just like someone who specializes in dealing damage won't regularly miss. That is what he's built for, and as long as he uses it to cover the rest, rather than to steal the glory or go to a value where anything capable of hurting him will instantly kill his teammates, there's nothing wrong with it.

Also: You don't have to do physical damage. Stun is plenty, especially since he has less Stun boxes than Physical boxes. Hell, if the enemies only do Stun damage, that increases the chance they knock him unconscious, so your rule is actually making it harder on the mooks to down him!
Plus, if he's not smart enough to raise his willpower, he'll be ripe for the taking by Direct Stun Manaspells. A corp mage throwing an overcast manaball into the group through magewire, because he's scared his fellow guards will get butchered, will make quite the impact.

Anyway: that guy with his SMG has 8 dice, and if he has Ex-Explosive ammo he's at 6P/-1. Let's assume he does a narrow burst and manages to score 1 net hit. That raises his damage to 6+1+2, 9S/-1. So we got 9 damage vs 29 soak dice. 2/3 of the time the damage gets soaked. On average it will only do a mere 0.7S damage. And the guy is now out of recoil compensation, so can't even do a second burst, and that damage is only if you hit. But there are other guards, and multiple attacks will drain your dodgepool. So a group of guards who focus their terrified fire on the big heavily-armored Ork will still hurt him a bit.

Now we bring out guards with Assault Rifles and APDS. That's 6P/-5, and capable of Full Auto. Let's assume we use an Ares Alpha, with a Gas Vent 3 added. Now the guards are capable of 2 short bursts each round, meaning after a few have fired twice each the Ork will already be out of dodge dice. For now, let's not be nasty enough to make them do a Full Burst, instead all guards use 2 narrow short bursts. Assume that 4 of them will hit, with 2 net hits. That's 6+2+2 = 10S/-5 damage, vs 30 soak dice. 70% chance the guy takes damage, average 2 damage taken. And the chance those 4 attacks do a combined 10S damage is 33%.

AnyDice: (http://www.anydice.com/) output [highest of 0 and 10-25d{0,0,1}] + [highest of 0 and 10-25d{0,0,1}] + [highest of 0 and 10-25d{0,0,1}] + [highest of 0 and 10-25d{0,0,1}]

If he has 35 soak dice, the chances he gets knocked out at even a mere 2 Willpower is only 8%, but that's assuming ~4 guards firing a total of 8 narrow bursts of which only 4 hit him. If luck isn't on his side, he'll go down bad. If he gets lucky and starts using Edge on really bad soak rolls, he'll be fine and might not even need healing much.

But even then, he's a Tank, and not even a fully-optimized one at that. It's his duty to soak damage, and to try not to get knocked out by it.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Upaatk on <08-18-13/0535:11>
Edited to re-add a little intro I accidentally cut off on my final preview to post: Hello all!  I've been looking forward to SR5 for quite a while and was ecstatic to see some Adept love in the form of Qi Foci, but like all things I love I have to tinker with them.  In the basic rules it takes a Force 16  focus with an Availability of 48R to get a +4 Strength bonus that can be had for very little through 'ware augments.  Assuming Qi Foci are to be the augments for adepts, or perhaps in a future edition other magic users, that seems a little overly restrictive.  Given that I've reworked them for my Availability by basing that on the Power Points of the power in the focus and I gave them grades like other augments have, but with a more appropriate naming convention (two actually!).  Increasing grade means higher price and availability restriction, but lower total force and therefore lower karma cost.

Re-edited because I had too much time on my hands while out sick today!  So, here's some info on Chinese magical practices!

pg. 279
Traditions
The Shnjio Mshī
The Shnjio, 神教, tradition is the most common Chinese 'lower class' and populist magical tradition; it is a counterpoint to the 'high society' and academic Wŭxng, 五行, tradition (detailed in SR4 Street Magic and hopefully in an upcoming SR5 book!).  Where Wŭxng wŭjn, or more accurately wŭ d rn, 五達人 (experts in the philosophy of fives; not to be confused with wǔ jīn, 五金, the Chinese name for cyberware), see an orderly universe bound by structure and bureaucratic  design that can be studied until mastered, Shnjio mshī, 牧師 (priests), practice feeling the ebb and flow of the universe's and the Gods' q, 氣 (vital energy), by living in alignment with them until the mshī learns to use their own q to cause magical effects.  A common statement by mshī is that "Teaching by example beats explaining in words" or, as said in the West, actions speak louder than words.

Side Bar: Chinese Magicians Titles
Despite their differences in belief and practice, all the Chinese magical traditions have been exchanging concepts with each other for the past millennium and certain titles have become preeminent over others.  In particular Daoism has been a source of many of the modern titles, but magicians across the range of traditions including Chn Zōng Sēng / Chn Zōng N Gū, 禪宗僧 / 禪宗尼姑 (Chinese Zen Buddhist Monks / Nuns), Do Jio T, 道教徒 (Followers of Daoism), Shnjio Mshī, and Wŭxng Wŭjn can all be called magician by the generic title Wū Shī, 巫師.  Magical healing specialists are often called, Wū Yī, 巫醫.  The arts of Enchantment are considered Wi Dān, 外丹 (Outer Alchemy), while the arts of Adepts to master their own bodies are considered Ni Dān, 內丹 (Inner Alchemy).  Similarly, the arts of Conjuring are described as Wi Zho, 外召 (Outer Summoning), while the arts of Sorcery are described as Ni Zho, 內召 (Inner Summoning).

Unlike the Wŭxng tradition, which recognizes the Gods but is not itself a religion, Shnjio is the Chinese folk religion with eons of beliefs building on beliefs.  It is often intermixed with Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism, but is a religion and philosophical tradition of its own and often takes on different facets in different regions of the world.  Mshī see the Gods, Ancestors, and other Shn, 神 (also including immortals, saints, and more assorted supernatural beings) not as easily defined beings that can be petitioned for aid as wŭjn or shaman might, but as implacable forces with their own whims and beliefs which the mshī must learn to adapt to in a way that benefits them both.  The Shn are often emulated or asked for guidance, but the magic a mshī wields is about learning and exploiting the quirks of the universe, rather than the quirks of the Shn.  Often the basic structure of these beliefs is similar to that of wŭjn, such as the Chinese Five Processes belief that forms the basis for Wŭxng magical practices, but in Shnjio it is believed that structure is much less firm and much more free flowing than wŭjn assume.

Five Processes philosophy, commonly called Five Elements in the West, holds that Metal (Jīn, 金), enriches Water (Shuǐ, 水), which nourishes Trees (M, 木), which feeds Fire (Huǒ, 火), which creates Earth (Tǔ, 土), which bears Metal, which chops Trees, which parts Earth, which absorbs Water, which extinguishes Fire, which melts Metal.  In this Harmonious Cycle, the first half of the chain is the Generative direction of flow and the second half is the Overcoming direction.  These form an overlaying metaphor and metaphysic to all of reality in pure Wŭxng tradition, which holds this to be a firm and reliable constant in the universe.  The Shnjio tradition feels that this, like most things, is often or even usually true, but not always a truth.  Mshī say that in the proper season, or at the whim of the Shn, Metal can be ground to Earth, which can burst into Fire, which can sprout the seeds of Trees, which can release clouds of Water, which can crystallize into Metal, which can hone Fire, which can distill Water, which can spark Earth, which can cultivate Trees, which can grind Metal.  To many wŭjn this appears to be nonsensical at best and disturbingly disharmonious at worst, but mshī see it as simply differently harmonious and call it the Amicable Cycle with first Engendering and then Seizing directions of flow.

Mshī build mio, 廟 (temples), to act as their magical lodges, although in their belief the mio belongs to the community of worshippers who support it rather than to the mshī.  Due to a series of translations through Portuguese, back to Chinese, and then to English, mio are also called joss houses in English and are frequently found by that name in Chinatowns across North America.  An isolated mshī might build a c, 祠 (ancestral shrine), or yun, 院 (sanctuary shrine), but a collection of them could eventually build up to a gōng, 宮 (palace), of shrines.  Whichever are built they are usually a riot of colors and icons, particular with dragons and Gods on their roofs.  This often requires reagents of metals, minerals, and woods for building the base structure, as well as animal and plant parts for special inks and dyes.  Knowledge of botany, parabotany, geology, parageology, zoology, parazoology, and chemistry are very beneficial in the hunt for appropriate materials.  They are often built with fēng shuĭ ideals in mind, so a knowledge of arcana, architecture, and astronomy can be invaluable to their design.

The Shnjio view of conjuring is dependent on their understanding that spirits are powerful beings (or are connected to powerful beings) and worthy of deep respect, or occasionally great fear.  Mshī are animistic, so see spirits in everything, but believe they are better off making long lasting, binding bargains with the spirits they know well, rather than chance a bad meeting with a wayward spirit while out and about.

Shnjio Tradition
Combat: Man (Metal)
Detection: Earth
Health: Fire
Illusion: Plant* (Trees)
Manipulation: Water
Drain: Intuition + Willpower
*Plant Spirits are detailed in SR4 Street Magic and, again, hopefully soon in a book for SR5!

pg. 319
Q Foci
The Force and Availability of a focus is determined by the Power Point cost of the power it holds and the Grade of the focus.  Q foci were first well developed by the Wŭxng magical tradition and their grade naming patterns generally follow that traditions lead.  The standard, base grade of q foci are called Yī, 一 (One), and require a Force of four times the Power Point cost of the power it holds (rounded up to the nearest whole number as usual), so a Level 1 Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) yī focus is a Force 2 focus, while a level 1 Improved Reflexes focus is Force 6 if you do not have Power Points of your own in the Power, or Force 4 if you already have levels of your own.  They have an Availability equal to five times the Power Point cost of the power it holds.

The next grade are called Sh, 十 (Ten), and require a Force of three times the Power Point cost of the power it holds, so a Level 1 Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) sh focus is equal to Force 1.5, rounded up to a Force 2 focus, while a level 1 Improved Reflexes focus is Force 4.5, rounded up to Force 5 if you do not have Power Points of your own in the Power, or Force 3 if you already have levels of your own.  They have an Availability two higher than the base yī grade and cost four times what yī foci cost for that same power (i.e., a level 1 Improved Reflexes yī focus is Force 6, Availability = Power Points 1.5 x 5 = 7.5 rounded up to 8, and Costs = Force 6 x 3,000 = 18,000 , but a level 1 Improved Reflexes sh focus is Force 5, Availability = yī Availability 8 + 2 = 10, and Cost = yī cost 18,000 x 4 = 72,000 ).

The third grade are called Bǎi, 百 (Hundred), and require a Force of two times the Power Point cost of the power it holds with an Availability four higher than the base and cost seven times what Yī foci cost.  The final grade are called Wn, 萬 (Ten Thousand, a mystically significant, great number to Chinese magicians), and require only a Force equal to the Power Point cost of the power it holds (rounded up as normal), but have an Availability eight higher than the base and cost ten times as much as yī foci.

In the Shnjio tradition the grade names are taken from the tones used in speaking Mandarin; in ascending order Png, 平 (the first or even tone), Shǎng, 上 (the second or rising tone), Q, 去 (the third or going tone), and R, 入 (the fourth or entering tone).

Qi Foci Table             Power Point to       Availability    Cost
Grades                      Force Multiplier   Modifier        Multiplier
Yī     一  (Png     平)        x 4                   -                x 1
Sh   十  (Shǎng  上)        x 3                 + 2              x 4
Bǎi   百  (Q       去)        x 2                 + 4              x 7
Wn 萬  (R       入)        x 1                 + 8              x 10

pg. 320
Weapon Foci
In most Chinese magical traditions weapon foci are considered extensions of the self and are categorized with the q foci.  Wŭxng weapon foci are called Qiān, 千 (Thousand), and Shnjio weapon foci are called Qīng, 轻 (the fifth or lightly neutral tone that takes on the character of the tone before it).

pg. 451
Augmentation
The Chinese name for cyberware is wǔ jīn, 五金 (metal hardware, also the five metals; gold, silver, copper, iron, and tin).  Their name for bioware developed as a counterpoint to the name for cyberware as wǔ zng fǔ, 五臟腑 (the five yin and yang organs), in a not quite accurate reference to Traditional Chinese Medicine organ understanding (which actually includes a sixth yang meta-organ related to metabolism and energy flow).  'Ware grades almost always go by the typical Western names, Standard, Alpha, etc, but the Chinese names listed for q foci (on pg. 319) are occasionally used, with the Shnjio names a bit more frequently than the Wŭxng names.  Similarly, at times weapon 'ware will be described in the same terms as weapon foci (listed on pg. 320) with the Shnjio term, Qīng, much more common for its association with augmenting or taking on the character of the greater body it enhances.

pg. 461
Magical Equipment
Foci                                       Availability                  Cost
Qi Focus (Base, Yī Grade)        (Power Points x 5)R     Force x 3,000

==> Disclaimer - All the above material is free to use by gamers or game publishers; to be presented in any for-profit materials or open gaming license content I should be listed for writing credit regarding the used work, but I do not require monetary compensation or restricted licensing ownership of the work after publishing.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Upaatk on <08-19-13/2232:28>
And here's a link to my current running document of other house rules, as a PDF on drop box for your viewing pleasure, or at least for your viewing! (http://"https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/106590631/SR5%20Houserules%202013-8-19.pdf")

Highlights being shifts in Metatype/Magic-Resonance table, new Skill Groups for skills that are likely taught/learned as a program together, and Mystic Adepts set to 1 Karma per 0.25 Power Points so that they can purchase in finer grades.

Incidentally, Abschalten, I really like the direction you're heading with Technomancers Redux!  I was thinking of something similar with a power point equivalent and then bamf, there was the redux!  I do think I prefer their internal rewiring as subtle rather than physically extensive, so I too would probably make the biojack concept more grabbing cord ends or sticking fingers in sockets rather than the actual hole to plug things in, but otherwise I think you're definitely on a good track and I hope you'll put a tag line on your work letting the game designers know you're open to them using your ideas.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crazy Ivan on <08-21-13/2100:48>
If and when I start GM'ing again, there is one house rule I've been contemplating after one particular session of play with a new GM.

In the session, there was a melee focused character (adept I think, but it doesn't matter) who relied on her sword first, fists second. No biggy, nothing special there. A fight breaks out, and forwhatever reason, the character couldn't get to her sword. So out come the fists to deal with some knife wielding mook.

The GM, in his ruling, argued that for defense purposes we could not use Unarmed Combat as the skill for the defense pool. Bear in mind, everyone at this table is military (active or recently retired at that), so we're no strangers to combat. Since I was dead dog tired at this point, I wasn't about to start a rules discussion to slow things down.

Then I started thinking about it. In hand to hand combat, in terms of melee combat, the unarmed combatant is generally at the immediate disadvantage. Trying to parry a knife is far more dangerous than just getting the hell out of the way. catching a blade or a pipe on the forearm trying to parry the thing with my own anatomy is not going to account for a good time since with even the subtlest mistake, it will result in a cut up arm or broken bones. So while I agreed in the end with the general concept, I didn't agree with his execution.

So here is what I was thinking;
Instead of making Unarmed useless defensively, I had another idea. In terms of defense, the defender no longer wins ties when facing someone who is using a melee weapon. Given that unarmed has a ton of advantages (shock hands, always being 'armed', etc. etc.) it gives a minor one-up to blades (who really needs it) and clubs (who really doesn't need it, but logically fits the concept, since it doesn't take a genius or tremendous amounts of skill to be dangerous with a lead pipe). These are my thoughts, but I figured I'd submit it to the masses for critiques, comments, and suggestions.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Palladion on <08-21-13/2235:57>
House Rule

Grenades and AOE Spells: Defender(s) roll an Edge (3) Defense Test (modified by Full Defense, if applicable). Success means damage is avoided, failure means defender(s) make a Damage Resistance Test for the full damage of the grenade or AOE spell (modified by range from blast).

(This is inspired somewhat on the Suppressive Fire rules, where Reaction + Edge is used to avoid an area effect of bullets.)
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Calvin_Moon on <08-25-13/2226:41>
Voice Modulator rating bonus to performance singing. What do you think?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Calvin_Moon on <08-25-13/2234:21>
If and when I start GM'ing again, there is one house rule I've been contemplating after one particular session of play with a new GM.

In the session, there was a melee focused character (adept I think, but it doesn't matter) who relied on her sword first, fists second. No biggy, nothing special there. A fight breaks out, and forwhatever reason, the character couldn't get to her sword. So out come the fists to deal with some knife wielding mook.

The GM, in his ruling, argued that for defense purposes we could not use Unarmed Combat as the skill for the defense pool. Bear in mind, everyone at this table is military (active or recently retired at that), so we're no strangers to combat. Since I was dead dog tired at this point, I wasn't about to start a rules discussion to slow things down.

Then I started thinking about it. In hand to hand combat, in terms of melee combat, the unarmed combatant is generally at the immediate disadvantage. Trying to parry a knife is far more dangerous than just getting the hell out of the way. catching a blade or a pipe on the forearm trying to parry the thing with my own anatomy is not going to account for a good time since with even the subtlest mistake, it will result in a cut up arm or broken bones. So while I agreed in the end with the general concept, I didn't agree with his execution.

So here is what I was thinking;
Instead of making Unarmed useless defensively, I had another idea. In terms of defense, the defender no longer wins ties when facing someone who is using a melee weapon. Given that unarmed has a ton of advantages (shock hands, always being 'armed', etc. etc.) it gives a minor one-up to blades (who really needs it) and clubs (who really doesn't need it, but logically fits the concept, since it doesn't take a genius or tremendous amounts of skill to be dangerous with a lead pipe). These are my thoughts, but I figured I'd submit it to the masses for critiques, comments, and suggestions.

I would do a Negative Mod to the unarmed skill maybe -4 or is that to harsh.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: RHat on <08-26-13/0144:21>
I would do a Negative Mod to the unarmed skill maybe -4 or is that to harsh.

I'm not so sure a penalty is needed - trying to parry any weapon while unarmed is dangerous, but that's why you don't do it.  You block the arm holding the weapon, something any character with a respectable Unarmed Combat skill should know.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on <08-26-13/0650:33>
I would do a Negative Mod to the unarmed skill maybe -4 or is that to harsh.

I'm not so sure a penalty is needed - trying to parry any weapon while unarmed is dangerous, but that's why you don't do it.  You block the arm holding the weapon, something any character with a respectable Unarmed Combat skill should know.
Which seems like it would be harder to do compared to a regular parry than "you lose ties" implies.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xenon on <08-26-13/0730:09>
Which seems like it would be harder to do compared to a regular parry than "you lose ties" implies.
But it already is harder to block with unarmed compared with a weapon.


Quote
Attacker has longer Reach:        -1 defense per point of net Reach
Defender has longer Reach:       +1 defense per point of net Reach



And it already is more dangerous to get hit with a melee weapon than to get hit by a melee attack.


since weapons generally do Physical damage instead of Stun damage, generally dealt more than strength as damage value instead of just strength as damage value and generally have armor penetration instead of not having armor penetration
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on <08-26-13/0822:42>
But it already is harder to block with unarmed compared with a weapon.
Quote
Attacker has longer Reach:        -1 defense per point of net Reach
Defender has longer Reach:       +1 defense per point of net Reach
And it already is more dangerous to get hit with a melee weapon than to get hit by a melee attack.
That's very nice and all, but I thought this was solely about unarmed parry versus armed parry (which a 0-Reach knife or sap can do), so Reach doesn't matter, and neither does how dangerous it is if the enemy hits you with the weapon (which will be the same regardless of what you're using): it's solely about comparing an unarmed parry of a melee attack versus a melee-weapon parry of a melee attack (we'll not go into the fact that you can apparently parry an unarmed strike with a bladed weapon without injuring the opponent). Plus Block already works with your Unarmed Combat, so I'm not exactly sure why you'd need to add an Unarmed Parry action.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Xenon on <08-26-13/1011:03>
I thought the issue was that his GM told him he could not add unarmed combat to his defense roll when attacked in melee.

He can. It is called Blocking. It cost 5 Initiative and blocking against a combat axe is hard. You get -2 dice (plus you introduce a [Physical] limit on your defense roll which might or might not even be worse than the -2 dice). Blocking against a knife is easier.

Using a knife to parry a combat axe is not really any easier than to blocking the forearm of the axe wielding person... so you get -2 dice if you use a knife to parry (plus that you introduce a limit on your defense roll).

Trying to dodge a combat axe is also not that easy. It is easier to dodge a knife or a fist.....



Unarmed parry make little to no sense. The combat axe will just chop your arm off. Unless maybe if you have metal pipes running along the forearms of your ninja-suit or something...
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on <08-26-13/1025:22>
Wait, that's what this is all about? In that case, screw the GM, or tell him you got armored plating for your arms.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crazy Ivan on <08-26-13/1254:19>
I suppose I should have mentioned this was 4th edition, not 5th.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: RHat on <08-26-13/1828:14>
I would do a Negative Mod to the unarmed skill maybe -4 or is that to harsh.

I'm not so sure a penalty is needed - trying to parry any weapon while unarmed is dangerous, but that's why you don't do it.  You block the arm holding the weapon, something any character with a respectable Unarmed Combat skill should know.
Which seems like it would be harder to do compared to a regular parry than "you lose ties" implies.

That very much depends - it's not like you "parry" a fist, either, you block the arm (generally).  So for a short weapon like a knife, there's not a lot of change to the block other than that you aim to maintain control of the arm.  For a long weapon, it can be more difficult, but that's what Reach is for.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on <08-26-13/2042:12>
Like I said later, RHat, I misread the original post as saying Parry should work for Unarmed defense against melee weapons (plus apparently the original post is about SR4, not SR5), which is why I said that.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Regeta on <08-26-13/2043:40>
People should be reminded how melee combat works in Shadowrun.
Melee is not seen in Shadowrun as "I strike you. You dodge me. Now it is my turn to strike you back."

In reality, if you used Parry + Sword to defend against Unarmed Combat, then you would be mostly reducing their chance to successfully hit by forcing them to not attack you very often at all.

Someone with a sword, defending against unarmed combat, is mostly on the offensive. The moments the Unarmed Combat person has, will be to either try to create a weakness to exploit (feign attacks) or dodge the offensive attacks of the sword user until able to counter.

Instead, Melee is 3 seconds of martial combat. Parrying an Unarmed Attack would mostly be sitting there doing nothing, as the Unarmed combatant only gets a few attacks of opportunity on you. Otherwise, the Unarmed combatant would be sliced to pieces trying to attack, while the swordsman parries.

So "Parry" can actually be, basically, offensive attacking. Just not enough, apparently, to do even a single box of damage.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: RHat on <08-26-13/2308:14>
So "Parry" can actually be, basically, offensive attacking. Just not enough, apparently, to do even a single box of damage.

From what I've heard (my knowledge of editions prior to SR4 being limited), earlier editions had melee combat where whoever won the roll dealt damage.  Counterattacks and such may become an element of SR5 again when the advanced combat options show up.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: WorkOver on <08-27-13/0251:00>
People should be reminded how melee combat works in Shadowrun.
Melee is not seen in Shadowrun as "I strike you. You dodge me. Now it is my turn to strike you back."

In reality, if you used Parry + Sword to defend against Unarmed Combat, then you would be mostly reducing their chance to successfully hit by forcing them to not attack you very often at all.

Someone with a sword, defending against unarmed combat, is mostly on the offensive. The moments the Unarmed Combat person has, will be to either try to create a weakness to exploit (feign attacks) or dodge the offensive attacks of the sword user until able to counter.

Instead, Melee is 3 seconds of martial combat. Parrying an Unarmed Attack would mostly be sitting there doing nothing, as the Unarmed combatant only gets a few attacks of opportunity on you. Otherwise, the Unarmed combatant would be sliced to pieces trying to attack, while the swordsman parries.

So "Parry" can actually be, basically, offensive attacking. Just not enough, apparently, to do even a single box of damage.

While I agree with this point, it seems it is now dubious in SR5. See the cyberarm rules.  If you have a cyberarm, it has it's own stats, and it is literally I punch you, I block you, I punch you.  If it was still abstract like the rest of the editions and rules apply, the cyber arm/legs rules would not work.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: JackVII on <08-30-13/1045:38>
From what I've heard (my knowledge of editions prior to SR4 being limited), earlier editions had melee combat where whoever won the roll dealt damage.  Counterattacks and such may become an element of SR5 again when the advanced combat options show up.
Yeah, that's how it used to work. Essentially an opposed test and whoever had the most hits did damage. It made going into melee with a melee focused adept an EXTREMELY bad idea.
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-30-13/1219:44>
Not my idea but I did think it'd make sense: Would it be possible to split this topic into separate SR4 and SR5 Houserule topics?
Title: Re: House Rules
Post by: Crunch on <08-30-13/1225:10>
That would make things a lot easier.

Not to mention being less intimidating for new players.
Title: Re: [SR4] House Rules
Post by: FastJack on <08-31-13/2303:53>
Not my idea but I did think it'd make sense: Would it be possible to split this topic into separate SR4 and SR5 Houserule topics?
Done.
Title: Re: [SR4] House Rules
Post by: cantshutup on <06-17-14/0508:13>
It looks like I might be inheriting an SR4 campaign soon, and one thing that really bothers me is the initiative pass system. Did anyone try transplanting SR5's initiative system to SR4? Does it just mean changing the corresponding ware/spell/power or am I missing something vital that will make it all not work?
Title: Re: [SR4] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <06-29-14/2318:02>
Honestly, if you inherit it, pause and talk with the players and see if they're willing to move up to SR5.  If they say no, though, all you really have to do is simply upgrade a few of the rules - rolling the initiative dice, the firing frequencies, and the interrupt action reductions.
Title: Re: [SR4] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on <07-06-14/0640:10>
It looks like I might be inheriting an SR4 campaign soon, and one thing that really bothers me is the initiative pass system. Did anyone try transplanting SR5's initiative system to SR4? Does it just mean changing the corresponding ware/spell/power or am I missing something vital that will make it all not work?
We did just that in our local SR4 game for the last year (transitioning to SR5 now).
It's basically a drop-in replacement. Your normal SR4 initiative score becomes the new SR5-style initiative score, and you have +1d6 for every initiative pass you'd have under the SR5 system. So if your SR4 initiative is 8 with 2 passes, you now have 8+2d6. There's no real changes you have to make except for that.

It makes combat a lot better, in my opinion. You could add in some more related rules (like interrupt actions and such that Wyrm said) but it's not necessary.
Title: Re: [SR4A] House Rules
Post by: Dr Adder on <10-12-15/1527:46>
Hi, some necromancy here !

I recently saw SR5 Core and Run Faster, and there are  some good ideas.

Has someone "tranferred" some materials to SR4A?

Especially the  positive and negative qualities seem to be better estimated in karma SR5 version, what can be an equivalent in Build Point SR4A ?