[Overbyte]

I actually have a slightly different problem with payment that comes up all the time.
Do the runners get paid per job or per runner?
Most of the per-made missions refer to the payment per runner, but does that really make sense? How does the Johnson know how many people you are going to use? Really it is none of his business how you accomplish the job. S/he really should just pay for the job. Which then gives the runners a chance to skimp on personnel for a bigger payday.

I run a game with only two runners that hire out NPCs when they need extra people for a run (often a decker, but sometimes extra muscle).
Usually only the team leader goes to the meet or whoever is getting the job in the first place (often the jobs are not from typical "Johnsons" but from some contact).

[Marcus]

I pay "What the client is willing to pay".

Which may sound silly, but then you consider I run campaigns, where the players actions and choices have consequences that carry on in game for YEARS to come, and not solo, or linked missions...

But I do have a general guide line I try to follow: Behind the scenes I know what the players will face, and plan payment around that.

$2000 to $5000 to start.
+5% for every 5 points of street cred (Averaged out).
+500 for every planned combat. (This is what I plan for, NOT how the world reacts to the players! If I plan out there will 3 combats if the players take a reasonable course of action, then they go and decide to storm the building at high noon on a tuesday.... I ain't paying them for it!)
+1000 if wet work is required
+500 to +5000 if there will be known consequences for the run. (Hitting a major public figure, mass property destruction, anything that could get them public awareness modifiers.)

+20 to 50% if payment will be in "goods and services" (new gear, access to medical facilities, etc)

From there, They can try to butter up for more as usual... I generally plan for 2 paying runs a month, but the players make the call and have been known to do as many as 8 runs in a month. (Granted, they were all short courier jobs, but there was still risks), Its been interesting to watch their development as they become more ingrained into the setting. Last Month they accepted a job for 10kg of fresh veggies a month each for a year as payment just because they have become invested in the little commune veggie garden I threw in just to add color when describing the neighborhood I originally placed them in!


Be careful however when it comes to payments with goods... It can have some.... surprising repercussions.

I like your system and having becoming something of advocate for that topic, can you elaborate on the last?

[firebug]

Admittedly this is something I struggle with too, so I'm glad to see people discussing it.  I tend to just use the rules in the core book, as-is.  I haven't had any games that have gone on for a long time though so I can't say if it becomes a problem for certain archetypes.  With Cutting Aces out, however, I think I will use the rules for "gear as cash payment" option a lot to allow me to give mundane archetypes more nuyen value without just handing the Awakened characters a buttload of extra nuyen.  Although, that actually results in less payment if the gear is above Availability 10...

[Reaver]

I pay "What the client is willing to pay".

Which may sound silly, but then you consider I run campaigns, where the players actions and choices have consequences that carry on in game for YEARS to come, and not solo, or linked missions...

But I do have a general guide line I try to follow: Behind the scenes I know what the players will face, and plan payment around that.

$2000 to $5000 to start.
+5% for every 5 points of street cred (Averaged out).
+500 for every planned combat. (This is what I plan for, NOT how the world reacts to the players! If I plan out there will 3 combats if the players take a reasonable course of action, then they go and decide to storm the building at high noon on a tuesday.... I ain't paying them for it!)
+1000 if wet work is required
+500 to +5000 if there will be known consequences for the run. (Hitting a major public figure, mass property destruction, anything that could get them public awareness modifiers.)

+20 to 50% if payment will be in "goods and services" (new gear, access to medical facilities, etc)

From there, They can try to butter up for more as usual... I generally plan for 2 paying runs a month, but the players make the call and have been known to do as many as 8 runs in a month. (Granted, they were all short courier jobs, but there was still risks), Its been interesting to watch their development as they become more ingrained into the setting. Last Month they accepted a job for 10kg of fresh veggies a month each for a year as payment just because they have become invested in the little commune veggie garden I threw in just to add color when describing the neighborhood I originally placed them in!


Be careful however when it comes to payments with goods... It can have some.... surprising repercussions.

I like your system and having becoming something of advocate for that topic, can you elaborate on the last?

Going to be honest, my payment system for my games comes from my GM I've just copied his formula because it worked well in our games. But the problem with goods for payment comes from what they do with the goods. Giving your players a half dozen rail guns for payment might sound like a good idea - until they decide to keep and use them! Same thing for really powerful cyberware. As a general rule, I don't give out anything for gear in lieu payment that I don't want the players using on a regular basis.

The other "problem" that can come up has to do with general goods, and is more of an example from my time of play that really threw my GM for a loop. During the Yucatan War in 2e/3e, We got a contract to help out Amazonia with some covert ops missions that were expected to take a total of 2 months. For payment, we got 8 tonnes of real coffee beans. He expected us to turn around and sell the coffee beans (for a price of about $500k.) but then Kelli in the group said "Hey you know, I bet we could make way more money if we opened up a coffee shop!".... And thus our Runners went from working the shadows, to being business owners...... And started "the Seattle Coffee War" when Aztecology started getting uppity when we cut into their profits...

We really threw him for a curve ball with that decision, that really messed up his plans, and has continued to have repercussions for about a decade and a half of real time! (Keep in mind, that this crew of players and GM have been player together for about 30 years and have been playing almost continuous characters since 1e!) But, it has also opened up so many new avenues for stories, which he has milked for adventures over the last 15 years.

[Michael Chandra]

I use the rules as a base for my one/month runs, and either offer a per player sum, or a lump sum which basically is the same if you divide.

[Tecumseh]

I actually have a slightly different problem with payment that comes up all the time.
Do the runners get paid per job or per runner?
Most of the per-made missions refer to the payment per runner, but does that really make sense? How does the Johnson know how many people you are going to use? Really it is none of his business how you accomplish the job. S/he really should just pay for the job. Which then gives the runners a chance to skimp on personnel for a bigger payday.

For the record, some of the early published adventures (like 1st and 2nd Edition) did pay the team in a lump-sum payment. Not only did this allow for some additional risk/reward considerations - i.e. individual runners getting paid more because the team was smaller, or vice versa - but it also allowed for the possibility of not splitting the payment evenly or for shared expenses to be deducted from the lump-sum before dividing it into shares. For example, a rigger with a van that the whole team uses could be paid more, especially if the van gets shot up or otherwise damaged in the course of the mission.

Many of the newer adventures are for Missions or convention play where you're going to have a group of strangers sitting around the table who have never played together before and will never play together again. Paying per-runner helps eliminate OOC tensions about who deserves what.

If you're playing with a home group with good interpersonal relationships then lump-sum payments can work well. It's largely dependent on the group in question.

[Vaarsuvius]

Okay so you guys tend to have runs the same length as mine, I have a couple other questions then.

For those of you who do, or feel you follow the formula for pay in the CRB, could you give me a breakdown of your math? I just want to see how you get to the numbers you do.

For those of you who ignore the formula in the CRB, why?

[Reaver]

Mostly because I am set in my ways

I have used the same pay rate system for years (since 3e I think) with some minor tweaking along the way. I find with my play style, it allows the players to live a life, save if they are smart, and grow. Because the amount goes up as their rep goes up, they see a progression reflected in their play. But it also keeps the players "hungry". While they will turn a profit if they are smart, they won't be going out and getting a major tech or magic upgrade every other game session. I find it makes them plan out their purchases is smaller steps, which helps keep the game running at a smoother pace.


But, again, this is because of my play style, my GM style, and how everything I do works together. So, what I do may be horrible for another table.

[Michael Chandra]

Okay so you guys tend to have runs the same length as mine, I have a couple other questions then.

For those of you who do, or feel you follow the formula for pay in the CRB, could you give me a breakdown of your math? I just want to see how you get to the numbers you do.

For those of you who ignore the formula in the CRB, why?

Don't have a PDF on this laptop for some reason so I can't recall the exact formula. -.- I recall basic 3k, dicepool/4 per extra, and possible addons. Say mediocre Blood Mage at 24 dice, plus having to deal with a frickin' Blood Mage, that's 3k*(1+24/6+1)=24k basic, +1/6 max in Negotiations, which they'll easily score and they have a good rep, so they get offered 28k (3.5k*8 basically) pp, or for a team of 5 a group sum of 140k.

[prismite]

At my table I want the players to be able to afford a sustainable medium lifestyle by they time they're 100 karma in.

I classify my missions into 3 levels of difficulty (1-3).
---Level 1 missions (Food Fight, Milk Run, etc) give around 3,000 base. I also allow players to 'loot bodies' without punishment, but organ legging is still frowned upon.
---Level 2 missions (Most convention runs) give around 10,000 base. These missions are lacking crunch most times, in my experience. Lost Islands found, for example, had a great chance to do something but fell flat in the end. Whoops...off topic...
---Level 3 missions (Really dangerous stuff that changes the face of the city/world/campaign) starts at $25,000 base and more than often results in the group getting an additional asset like a vehicle, arms, ware, etc.

Average karma payouts are 5, 8, 10 ... respectively, with bonuses for good RP.

Current group is 27 missions in and just hit 230 karma / $250,000 lifetime totals. It might seem like a lot, but it comes out to about $9300 per job.