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katana: two handed?

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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #45 on: <04-29-13/2209:04> »
Absolutely not "period".

A specific rule cannot list every possible exception to the rule, the exception is noted where it is relevant. Otherwise the book would be as thick as a legal tome and obsolete as soon as the first splatbook was published.

In this case, the text of the katana states unequivocally that it is a two-handed weapon. This may be in contradiction to the general rule, but as it is a statement made specifically about that weapon, it still applies.

If that were not the case, other rules exceptions cited in the text pertaining to specific items and weapons, such as the special recoil rules mentioned above, would be overridden by the general rule, which is clearly not the case.


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And if one uses that portion of the description to override that general rule, then by extension (unless you want to be a hypocrite), one must at least consider that the description of something else can "override a general rule", even through an omission present in other descriptions. :P
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #46 on: <04-29-13/2227:50> »
Wow to RHat and JoeNapalm.

And no.

In the examples people normally give - and right now I'm looking at the Light and Heavy Pistol sections, where I see the Hammerli 620S, the Yamaha Fubuki, the Ares Viper Slivergun, and the Remington Roomsweeper - every specific rule given contains descriptive text followed by very specific technical details about the rule and how it differs than normal.

Quote from: SR4A, p.317
  • Hammerli 620S: Sleek and stylish, the Hammerli offers the range of a heavy pistol within a light pistol casing (use Heavy Pistol ranges, p. 151).
  • Yamaha Fubuki: The Fubuki may only fire narrow bursts (not wide), but burst recoil is handled like SA recoil (–1 Recoil on the second burst each Action Phase only).
  • Ares Viper Slivergun: It fires metal slivers that count as flechette ammunition (already factored in to the Damage Code).
  • Remington Roomsweeper: This short-barreled “shotgun pistol” can be loaded with shot rounds rather than slugs, in which cases it uses heavy-pistol ranges but shotgun rules (Shotguns, pp. 154–155)

The katana and the combat axe both are described as 'two-handed', but have no specific technical details, as is otherwise common.  You can - and will - argue that since Arsenal v.2 hadn't come out yet, they didn't think of saying, 'oh, this weapon is considered a two-handed weapon despite having a Reach of 1' - but Arsenal v.1 had.  Every other weapon with the 'two-handed' descriptor has - surprise! - a Reach of 2, and there are weapons that do NOT have the 'two-handed' descriptor that still require two hands to use, because they have a Reach of 2.

The counter-argument here is that those two weapons are being specifically highlighted as always being ones that can be used with two hands, as per the 'using one-handed melee weapons with two hands' rule.  But again, this is not specified.

Specific exceptions to rules are EXPRESSED as specific exceptions to rules, as seen above, with reference to HOW the rule is changed.  Deciding that because the descriptor says something that could be interpreted in two different ways it is an exception instead of the one that would not make an exception?  Err, well ... no.

Your GM - or you as the GM - may rule differently, as specifically directed.  But just because you think it's an exception when there's a clear and distinct other interpretation doesn't make it an exception.

(And wow to A4BG - rare is even the suggestion of agreement between us... ;) )
« Last Edit: <04-29-13/2230:52> by The Wyrm Ouroboros »
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RHat

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« Reply #47 on: <04-29-13/2230:01> »
Absolutely not "period".

A specific rule cannot list every possible exception to the rule, the exception is noted where it is relevant. Otherwise the book would be as thick as a legal tome and obsolete as soon as the first splatbook was published.

In this case, the text of the katana states unequivocally that it is a two-handed weapon. This may be in contradiction to the general rule, but as it is a statement made specifically about that weapon, it still applies.

If that were not the case, other rules exceptions cited in the text pertaining to specific items and weapons, such as the special recoil rules mentioned above, would be overridden by the general rule, which is clearly not the case.


-Jn-
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And if one uses that portion of the description to override that general rule, then by extension (unless you want to be a hypocrite), one must at least consider that the description of something else can "override a general rule", even through an omission present in other descriptions. :P

"Specific" has to be explicit to override the general rule.  Simply not referencing the general rule is not sufficient, because it is assumed to inherit everything from the general rule that it does not explicitly override.

Wyrm:  How is "two-handed sword" not sufficient detail to establish that it is a two-handed weapon?  Details like you cite are given when the weapon adds relatively rules-unique elements.
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #48 on: <04-29-13/2236:54> »
Absolutely not "period".

A specific rule cannot list every possible exception to the rule, the exception is noted where it is relevant. Otherwise the book would be as thick as a legal tome and obsolete as soon as the first splatbook was published.

In this case, the text of the katana states unequivocally that it is a two-handed weapon. This may be in contradiction to the general rule, but as it is a statement made specifically about that weapon, it still applies.

If that were not the case, other rules exceptions cited in the text pertaining to specific items and weapons, such as the special recoil rules mentioned above, would be overridden by the general rule, which is clearly not the case.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

And if one uses that portion of the description to override that general rule, then by extension (unless you want to be a hypocrite), one must at least consider that the description of something else can "override a general rule", even through an omission present in other descriptions. :P

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viaRailGun

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« Reply #49 on: <04-29-13/2252:53> »
with regards to the "exceptional rule" of the combat axe/katana being a two-handed weapon, under it's description, nowhere else but under the advanced combat rules SR4. AR is handedness mentioned. rules for handedness are found under this section and should be used in conjunction with eachother.


The katana and the combat axe both are described as 'two-handed', but have no specific technical details, as is otherwise common.  You can - and will - argue that since Arsenal v.2 hadn't come out yet, they didn't think of saying, 'oh, this weapon is considered a two-handed weapon despite having a Reach of 1' - but Arsenal v.1 had.  Every other weapon with the 'two-handed' descriptor has - surprise! - a Reach of 2, and there are weapons that do NOT have the 'two-handed' descriptor that still require two hands to use, because they have a Reach of 2.


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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #50 on: <04-29-13/2257:13> »
"Specific" has to be explicit to override the general rule.  Simply not referencing the general rule is not sufficient, because it is assumed to inherit everything from the general rule that it does not explicitly override.

Wyrm:  How is "two-handed sword" not sufficient detail to establish that it is a two-handed weapon?  Details like you cite are given when the weapon adds relatively rules-unique elements.

Because of the TWO General Rules.

  • Reach 2 weapons require two hands to use properly; they are designed that way.  Using them with one hand gives a penalty.
  • Reach 0 and 1 weapons only require one hand.  If the weapon can be grasped with two hands, you can use it as such and get a bonus.

You then have the following:

  • I have a Reach of 1.  I require one hand to use.
  • I am described as a two-handed weapon.  I can therefore be used with two hands.

Because of Rules 1 and 2, we have established that some weapons that require two hands to use properly may be used with only one hand - and that some weapons that only require one hand to use properly may be used with two hands.  Calling a Reach 1 weapon a two-handed weapon thus permits the confusion you are thus displaying, possibly but not necessarily because you have never hefted one in your hand or swung it in a correct combat exercise.

Katanas and battle-axes were designed to be used with one hand - because the other hand was going to be busy, whether holding the reins of a horse, or carrying a shield, or whatever.  The length of their hafts enables them to be used with two hands - but does not require them to be used with two hands.  Did they get used with two hands an awful lot?  Sure, in part because using two hands gave more power.  (Also more control.)  But neither weapon was designed to require two hands the way a polearm is.

Both the katana and the battle axe (which is a lot bloody different than a great-axe, let me tell you) have Reach 1, require only one hand to use, but may use two hands.  Their description as being 'two-handed' thus fits into the definition of Rule #2, simplified above.

Details like you cite are given when the weapon adds relatively rules-unique elements.
I want to specifically address this, though, because one thing SR doesn't have is a Great Hammer - or a Great Axe.  You know, the huge weapons with a giant chunk of metal on it, or an axehead facing one way, and another giant axehead facing the other way?  These things might easily be mounted on a short shaft, thus making it Reach 1, but you would then state more than just 'two-handed weapon'.  You would say, "Because of its massive weight and momentum, a Great (Weapon) requires two hands to wield."  THAT is an exception, with the explanation as to why it is a 'two-handed weapon' even though it only has a Reach of 1.

Saying that just because something says 'two-handed weapon' means it is designed to require two hands to wield properly, when there is an explanation that is equal or better which fits the real-life physical reality of the item if it exists, is willful blindness.
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #51 on: <04-29-13/2305:04> »
Wow to RHat and JoeNapalm.

And no.

In the examples people normally give - and right now I'm looking at the Light and Heavy Pistol sections, where I see the Hammerli 620S, the Yamaha Fubuki, the Ares Viper Slivergun, and the Remington Roomsweeper - every specific rule given contains descriptive text followed by very specific technical details about the rule and how it differs than normal.

Quote from: SR4A, p.317
  • Hammerli 620S: Sleek and stylish, the Hammerli offers the range of a heavy pistol within a light pistol casing (use Heavy Pistol ranges, p. 151).
  • Yamaha Fubuki: The Fubuki may only fire narrow bursts (not wide), but burst recoil is handled like SA recoil (–1 Recoil on the second burst each Action Phase only).
  • Ares Viper Slivergun: It fires metal slivers that count as flechette ammunition (already factored in to the Damage Code).
  • Remington Roomsweeper: This short-barreled “shotgun pistol” can be loaded with shot rounds rather than slugs, in which cases it uses heavy-pistol ranges but shotgun rules (Shotguns, pp. 154–155)

The katana and the combat axe both are described as 'two-handed', but have no specific technical details, as is otherwise common.  You can - and will - argue that since Arsenal v.2 hadn't come out yet, they didn't think of saying, 'oh, this weapon is considered a two-handed weapon despite having a Reach of 1' - but Arsenal v.1 had.  Every other weapon with the 'two-handed' descriptor has - surprise! - a Reach of 2, and there are weapons that do NOT have the 'two-handed' descriptor that still require two hands to use, because they have a Reach of 2.

The counter-argument here is that those two weapons are being specifically highlighted as always being ones that can be used with two hands, as per the 'using one-handed melee weapons with two hands' rule.  But again, this is not specified.

Specific exceptions to rules are EXPRESSED as specific exceptions to rules, as seen above, with reference to HOW the rule is changed.  Deciding that because the descriptor says something that could be interpreted in two different ways it is an exception instead of the one that would not make an exception?  Err, well ... no.

Your GM - or you as the GM - may rule differently, as specifically directed.  But just because you think it's an exception when there's a clear and distinct other interpretation doesn't make it an exception.

(And wow to A4BG - rare is even the suggestion of agreement between us... ;) )

It is specified. The text says they are two-handed.

How is "this weapon is two-handed" open to interpretation, other than arbitrarily deciding to ignore some descriptive text and not others?

This concept of "it is fluff unless I say it isn't" is not a viable interpretation of a rules system. The only "fluff" is clearly delineated in short fiction on color commentary from setting persona.

Everything else is the rules.

If that is NOT the case, how do you think the descriptive text would need to be written to make a weapon that is a Reach 1 weapon and is a two-handed weapon, such as a katana, be two-handed?

Because a katana is actually two-handed, like the text says. It was developed as the Samurai transitioned from primarily mounted archers to more of a close combat role.


-Jn-
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« Last Edit: <04-29-13/2308:08> by JoeNapalm »

viaRailGun

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« Reply #52 on: <04-29-13/2312:27> »
quote from joenapalm
"If that is NOT the case, how do you think the descriptive text would need to be written to make a weapon that is a Reach 1 weapon and is a two-handed weapon, such as a katana, be two-handed? Because a katana is actually two-handed, like the text says."

if such is the case, what rules actually apply because of this, if not using AR's advanced combat rules and only SR4 Core. to have an exception and no rules to follow are kinda redundant no?
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #53 on: <04-29-13/2343:04> »
Calling a Reach 1 weapon a two-handed weapon thus permits the confusion you are thus displaying, possibly but not necessarily because you have never hefted one in your hand or swung it in a correct combat exercise.

...


Saying that just because something says 'two-handed weapon' means it is designed to require two hands to wield properly, when there is an explanation that is equal or better which fits the real-life physical reality of the item if it exists, is willful blindness.

There is no need to get spun up. We don't see eye to eye. It's not a crisis.

It's unwise to make assumptions about what I have and haven't done. My avatar isn't a random choice.

A katana is designed to be used two-handed. It can be used with one, but is designed for two. Iai-jutsu and Niten Ichi-Ryu are the exceptions, not the rule.

It would not be game-breaking to allow one-handed use, but I disagree with the increasingly common practice of simply disregarding the descriptive text as "fluff". If you perceive an optional rule, such as in Arsenal, as overriding that, then fine - but that is an optional rule. If, at your table, you choose to disregard that text, then fine, but that is not RAW.

We don't pay at the same table, you can wave a sword around however you see fit - I just happen to disagree with your interpretation.

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« Last Edit: <04-29-13/2344:48> by JoeNapalm »

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #54 on: <04-30-13/0005:01> »
It is specified. The text says they are two-handed.

How is "this weapon is two-handed" open to interpretation, other than arbitrarily deciding to ignore some descriptive text and not others?

This concept of "it is fluff unless I say it isn't" is not a viable interpretation of a rules system. The only "fluff" is clearly delineated in short fiction on color commentary from setting persona.

Everything else is the rules.
I never said it was 'fluff'; it is a description, and that description states that the weapon is a two-handed weapon.  In the description of the Hammerli 620S, it tells you that the weapon comes with an integral gas-vent and a smartgun system.  This isn't 'fluff'; this is description.

We're not disagreeing on what is written.  What we're disagreeing on is what saying 'it is a two-handed weapon' means in regards to a Reach 1 weapon.

You say that that means that it requires two hands to wield properly.  I say that, in regards to a Reach 1 weapon, it may be used with both hands.  You say that 'this two-handed sword' delineates an exception - when every exception I've found specifies how the exception is handled.  I say that 'this two-handed sword' clearly defines a weapon that is NOT an exception, but is instead the archetypal weapon requiring one hand to be used with both hands in order to gain an improvement in striking.

Your interpretation is 'exception' when there is no 'and this is how the exception is handled'.
My interpretation is 'this one in particular exemplifies the rule' - not the exception, but an example of what the rule is about.

If that is NOT the case, how do you think the descriptive text would need to be written to make a weapon that is a Reach 1 weapon and is a two-handed weapon, such as a katana, be two-handed?

Thus:

Details like you cite are given when the weapon adds relatively rules-unique elements.
I want to specifically address this, though, because one thing SR doesn't have is a Great Hammer - or a Great Axe.  You know, the huge weapons with a giant chunk of metal on it, or an axehead facing one way, and another giant axehead facing the other way?  These things might easily be mounted on a short shaft, thus making it Reach 1, but you would then state more than just 'two-handed weapon'.  You would say, "Because of its massive weight and momentum, a Great (Weapon) requires two hands to wield."  THAT is an exception, with the explanation as to why it is a 'two-handed weapon' even though it only has a Reach of 1.

Because a katana is actually two-handed, like the text says. It was developed as the Samurai transitioned from primarily mounted archers to more of a close combat role.

A katana is designed to be used two-handed. It can be used with one, but is designed for two. Iai-jutsu and Niten Ichi-Ryu are the exceptions, not the rule.

No offense, but you can't have both be true.

Equip a mounted archer - bow, arrows.  Have his class start moving from focussing on mounted archery to close combat - which means the first weapon designed is a melee weapon designed to be used while on horseback.  This is a one-handed weapon, with the other hand for your mount.  Once you dismount (willfully or forcibly), yes, using both hands is wise, in part because as an archer you don't carry a shield.  (Nor, really, were shields big things in Japan, so far as I can discover.)

If you are correct and the design of the weapon comes from the transition of horse-mounted archers to, well, horse-mounted close combatants (and eventually ground combatants), then the design of the weapon comes from that necessity, and not being built as the weapon of a fighter on foot.  (Those, as we know, are primarily polearms.)  The techniques developed to use that weapon on foot evolved from the weapon design and cultural philosophies; the weapon design did not evolve from the technique.

You really are proving my point.  In any case, as you said, I don't play at your table, so you as GM can declare it's a two-hands-required weapon, as is your right.  Textev does not require that, however.
« Last Edit: <04-30-13/0008:11> by The Wyrm Ouroboros »
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #55 on: <04-30-13/0049:10> »
They can both be true, because they both say the same thing: The katana is a two-handed weapon.

All of your discussion of mounted combat is more relevant to the tachi than the katana, and irrelevant to Shadowrun - unless you intend to be using it from the back of your Harley (which would be awesome, but not the normal usage).

As combat styles shifted, the Samurai moved from the tachi to the katana, which was more suited to the sudden close-combat engagement.

Your comments implied you've trained, in which case you know that, fundamentally, the katana is used with two hands. One-handed techniques are there, but are certainly not the core of the weapon style.

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Mara

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« Reply #56 on: <04-30-13/0059:27> »
Your comments implied you've trained, in which case you know that, fundamentally, the katana is used with two hands. One-handed techniques are there, but are certainly not the core of the weapon style.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Also, IIRC, the one handed techniques are for more artistic use then actual combat. The displays of skill, etc, not the, you know, actual
killing people. And those who could use a Katana in the niten ichi-ryu style, or who practice any style that focuses on using a katana
one handed had years of specific training in just that, and still had to master the using it in two hands, first. The actual standard style
being to turn the enemy blade(using the back of your blade), then strike down the opening you just created.

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« Reply #57 on: <04-30-13/0102:54> »
Actually, the katana, like the bastard sword in Europe, is an example of a hand-and-a-half sword. In other words, a sword that can be wielded in either one or two hands, typically longer and heavier than a longsword or wakizashi, but shorter and lighter than a claymore, greatsword, or nodachi, to give examples. As with most weapons of the type, it is easier to use the sword in two hands, unless you've trained in using it one-handed. Unfortunately, this is a style of sword that is largely overlooked in the shadowrun rules.

How would I resolve it? Probably I would make a quality or maneuver for it, modeled off the Ambidexterity quality and the Off-hand Training maneuver. Simple, easy, and gets the job done in a way most people should at least be able to agree with mechanically, yes?
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RHat

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« Reply #58 on: <04-30-13/0107:31> »
As an alternative, perhaps reduce the one-handed penalty by one - -1 for most, 0 for trolls.
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Medicineman

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« Reply #59 on: <04-30-13/0123:58> »
just as a thought :
If I (me ,Medicineman,real Person) can wield a Katana one handed, why shouldn't Streetsam be able to do so too ?
I can't wield a Halberd,Claymore or even a No-Dachi one handed,so these are Two Handed Weapons to Me but a Katana is hardly a Problem

with a one Handed Dance
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