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Genetics: Cloning & VatGrowing

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Ultra Violet

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« on: <01-30-11/1338:25> »
Hoi Wizkids,
my topic today is "Cloning" or "Designer Babies".

First question: Can every being be cloned or genetically engineered?
(Metahumans, mundane critters and paracritters?)

If I buy a Cyborg is the "cloned" brain included or do I have to buy one separately? How much costs a cloned and trained brain? And are they always human brains, or can I buy a metahuman brain, like elven brain, too? Do a cloned elven brain costs more money, than a cloned human brain?
What's about sapient critters, can I buy a cloned naga brain for my Cyborg Unit?

Do a Vat grown cloned Cyborg brain comes with the benefits of VatGrowing or genetically designed? In other words can it be genetically modified?

How much would it cost me to clone my own brain in my Lab? What do I need for it and how long does it take?

Can a Dragon be cloned?
What can be cloned and what can't?

Can I create a metahuman WarForm (a perfect metahuman, a Superhuman, an Übermensch)?
If yes, does he get the same bonus effects like animal WarForms?

Yes I know, there will be laws against such things, but it's Shadowrun, black ops or shadow clinics and labs do exists, and it is human nature trying to do anything that is possible (regardless of legality or ethics). And that is a Dream the militaries of the whole world dreaming about, since the beginning of designed wars...


Yours faithfully,
UV
« Last Edit: <01-30-11/1346:13> by Ultra Violet »

Ultra Violet

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« Reply #1 on: <02-01-11/0910:19> »
How about metahuman Bio-drones?

Morg

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« Reply #2 on: <02-02-11/0809:15> »
As an overall feeling while reading the fluff my impression is that all non-magical and non-virtualkinetic creatures can be cloned ie Bandit: yes Dragon: no

The Cyborgs as PCs sidebar implies that the CCU mod costs 250,000 new yen, I don't think the drones come with the cloned brain when you look at the prices of the drones if your cloning your brain it may have some of the same traits as your character

as far as coloned brains go, blank brains may not cost more in time and yen then a cloned orgian as you only need to replicate gray mater and nerve tissue so it is less complicated to grow then a limb as for what kind of brain you can get... more then likely only metahuman brains are supported by the current tech

after the CCU mod the brain has a massive .1 essence left so mod away (cyborg cyberzombie anyone?)

Quote from: Augmentation pg 83 subheading Designer Babies
The field of genecrafted babies has seen quantum leaps in recent years but it remains expensive, comparable to anti-aging treatments in the '50s; All geneware available to an adult can be achieved by nano-assisted genetic engineering after in vitro fertilization.

So in essence warform metahumans may exist they just aren't named as such it would be bad press

Ultra Violet

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« Reply #3 on: <02-03-11/2040:51> »
As an overall feeling while reading the fluff my impression is that all non-magical and non-virtualkinetic creatures can be cloned ie Bandit: yes Dragon: no
I thought more in directions like Naga-Cyborg (as PC maybe) but a Dragon-Clone would be a killer plot! ;D .o0(Or Dragon-Brain-Cyborgs)
The idea of cloned Dragons is not far, because it is new technology and the dragons were even on the edge of extinction. And IMHO they have another kind of ethics with a more practical way of thinking. The trust issue of the Dragon Kind is a good start to say dragon clones exist. For two reasons:
1. Whom can a dragon more trust than another dragon or himself?
2. Yes the magic abilities of the Dragon Kind are great, but the technological advancements the young human race did invented in the last cycle, was unexpected efficient and in many ways a new way of thinking and probably it can take the Dragon Kind to new solutions of old problems... It is no secret that many dragons are interested in the new technology, because of that, and other reasons.

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The Cyborgs as PCs sidebar implies that the CCU mod costs 250,000 new yen, I don't think the drones come with the cloned brain when you look at the prices of the drones if your cloning your brain it may have some of the same traits as your character
It doesn't answer my question. My question is how much do a CCU with trained brain costs. That the costs is 250K for the CCU without brain and additional costs for the Cyborg-Drone is clear, but the fluff (background) said that Cyborgs can be bought on the free market, as new form of servant drone. But that lack of price information makes it impossible to really buy a cyborg servant in the Game. They simple don't tell us how much the brain is worth!
There are 3 types of Cyborg brains, with different qualities or ability limits, but non of them came with a price-tag.

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as far as cloned brains go, blank brains may not cost more in time and yen then a cloned organ as you only need to replicate gray mater and nerve tissue so it is less complicated to grow then a limb as for what kind of brain you can get... more then likely only metahuman brains are supported by the current tech
Yes but how much? And more important how much for a trained brain. The training is in opinion the trick or time and effort consuming part.

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after the CCU mod the brain has a massive .1 essence left so mod away (cyborg cyberzombie anyone?)
My question here is does a cloned brain can be genetical designed like VatGrowing animals do? (Without extra Essence costs!)
Quote from: AU, p. 163
Cranial Containment Unit (CCU)
Transplanting an adult brain into a CCU requires removing any pre-existing implants (with the possible exception of cultured bioware, at the gamemaster’s discretion).
First of all the description is about an adult brain only (no child brain nor cloned brain), and it tells us cultured bioware can be integrated without extra Essence costs (if the GM allows it).
Why only cultured bioware and nothing about genetics? What has cultured bioware, that genetics hasn't? Genetics are usually more Essence friendly and easier to integrate and can be a heritage.
And if that is only the description of 1 of the 3 brain types, what is about the rest?
Basically I ask for the rules of cloned and child cyborg brains including a price-tags. Because at least cloned brains are on the selling market.

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Quote from: Augmentation pg 83 subheading Designer Babies
The field of genecrafted babies has seen quantum leaps in recent years but it remains expensive, comparable to anti-aging treatments in the '50s; All geneware available to an adult can be achieved by nano-assisted genetic engineering after in vitro fertilization.

So in essence warform metahumans may exist they just aren't named as such it would be bad press
The Point of that question is, can I use the war form rules on a NPC or PC metahuman super soldier? The other idea behind it, was the question of bio-drones in metahuman form. As wet-suit for sapient critters. i.e. a Naga who wants to do a research on metahuman society. I do not know how the metahuman cloning law is in the Naga Kingdom, but since metahumanity clone snakes, too... and Naga have like dragons another ethic understanding as metahumans do.

thalandar

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« Reply #4 on: <02-03-11/2136:45> »
Interesting idea....one thing you will have to determine if your going down this path (i.e. using the genetic modification rules in running wild) is "What is the base, untrained cost of a metahuman?"  Plus, "warforms still have to be trained per normal rules." How are you you going to approach that?

If you take the approach for the movie "Soldier" that could be a few years.  Or are you going the route of immature brain in fully-adult body?

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #5 on: <02-03-11/2147:19> »
Cloning isn't "new" technology in the 2070's.  By then it's over 80 years old:  Ancient by tech standards.  Anything that has a genetic code can be cloned.  This doesn't mean that magical creatures would do well cloned in a lab, since they would often require specialized incubation and "birthing" to be healthy.

This is especially true of dragons, as they have a long incubation cycle and are aware for the majority of the time they are in the egg.  The dragon caring for the clutch of eggs uses dragonspeech to teach them, and they will converse with the other eggs nearby.  I imagine the isolation would drive the dragon eggs insane or simply kill them, as they would have no one to teach them "how to hatch," basically.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Ultra Violet

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« Reply #6 on: <02-03-11/2218:35> »
Interesting idea....one thing you will have to determine if your going down this path (i.e. using the genetic modification rules in running wild) is "What is the base, untrained cost of a metahuman?"  Plus, "warforms still have to be trained per normal rules." How are you you going to approach that?
Yes, that is the main problem and it isn't accidentally placed in the official SR-Forum. ;) I hope to get some answers and good ideas.

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If you take the approach for the movie "Soldier" that could be a few years.  Or are you going the route of immature brain in fully-adult body?
If you read the description of the 3 cyborg brain types (see AU, p. 162) you will see the differences. But we can only guess, how old a trained clone brain is when it hits the market.

This is especially true of dragons, as they have a long incubation cycle and are aware for the majority of the time they are in the egg.  The dragon caring for the clutch of eggs uses dragonspeech to teach them, and they will converse with the other eggs nearby.  I imagine the isolation would drive the dragon eggs insane or simply kill them, as they would have no one to teach them "how to hatch," basically.
It's a good explanation, why dragon cloning doesn't work at all. Thanks! Only what is with biological compound can you clone the body without a functional brain?
 

Dahrken

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« Reply #7 on: <02-04-11/1353:39> »
Also keep in mind that a forced-growth clone from an Awakened person (or critter for that matter) is not Awakened, the highly unnatural procedure probably mess up with the mana interactions required for the metagenes to express correctly.

So a cloned dragon is probably impossible, considering the highly magical nature of the beast.
« Last Edit: <02-04-11/1359:19> by Dahrken »

Morg

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« Reply #8 on: <02-04-11/1440:23> »
Also keep in mind that a forced-growth clone from an Awakened person (or critter for that matter) is not Awakened, the highly unnatural procedure probably mess up with the mana interactions required for the metagenes to express correctly.

So a cloned dragon is probably impossible, considering the highly magical nature of the beast.
However an interesting plot device would be a magician that is developing a ritual formula to connect vat grown material to the mana field during growth. Lots of runs could spin off as it would be of great interest even if it only showed small application

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #9 on: <02-04-11/2142:40> »
That guy sounds like a great target for extraction/coercion/assasination ops.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Morg

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« Reply #10 on: <02-04-11/2248:12> »
Growing a wimp has no RAW cost but looking at the costs of individual cloned parts it wouldn't be unreasonable to put it in the ballpark of 50k because once you clone the whole body its biology can take over for some of the tech needed to sustain it. as for an untrained brain I put forth 15k as for training how about using tutorsoft costs with a 20% discount to figure out the final

so cost of all tutorsofts required in the brains training with 20% savings + 15k for the brain clone + 250k for the CCU

the only thing that stops them from sequencing metahuman warforms are treaties... unless your good at keeping things quiet as for a Metahuman Biodrone...

Quote from: The Smiling Bandit Augmentation 140
Higher-order brains make the CAST translation incrementally harder if not impossible, since complex neural structures link a lot of subconscious processing and memory associations with sensory stimuli.

I know it is only fluff but as a rule Bandit knows what he is talking about. However it is still only a technological hurdle and the statement was made about 2071 so there could be something bleeding edge by this point

thoughts?

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #11 on: <02-05-11/0004:44> »
I think the big thing is that the human brain rewires itself as time goes by.  The majority happens during the early, formative years (which is why infants, toddlers, and young children learn at their rather astounding rate) but this process never really stops.  Without that early formation that cloned brain is, essentially, a newborn with absolutely no knowledge regarding even the most basic movements of the body.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Morg

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« Reply #12 on: <02-05-11/0028:17> »
that is to bad...I guess you'll just have to use skillwires with a persona chip

Dahrken

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« Reply #13 on: <02-05-11/0702:51> »
There is another important question : what would be the point of such technologies ? What purpose would justify to invest huge amounts of R&D and take the risk of horrendous PR backlash ?

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #14 on: <02-05-11/0804:02> »
Cracking the awakened code and making it an augmentation that anyone could get (with the right cred, of course), not just those born with the ability.

That would be huge bucks and amazing PR.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."