[adzling]

Our group used to have a heavily optimized sprite-based technomancer/ rigger and now we have a heavily optimized decker/ rigger.

I had a hand in building both and I GM the group mostly so I am intimately aware of the build constraints and relative power levels of both archetypes.

Our table's observations (which mostly add onto what was said above at length) are:

1). The Decker  / Rigger is able to fill both roles well, he's far more competent at rigging than the techno was or could ever have been.
2). The Decker is a *far* better decker than the Techno ever was and he's more flexible being able to swap out programs and deck stats at a moment's notice to suit the task at hand.

All in all given the relative power levels of both toons the decker wins hands down over the techno.

Given the huge number of threads on this forum and elsewhere saying just this I really find it amazeballs that Catalyst does not realize this...or at least someone so intimately involved with the missions/ demos sides does not realize this.

I guess because there is so little actual hacking in missions play?

[Whiskeyjack]

once I walk them threw their abilities and compare them to magicians using the matrix in lieu of astral, complex forms for spells, and sprites for spirits it is amazing how many light bulbs come on that point.

The mechanics of Resonance/Compiling/Threading, on the macro level, certainly are analogous to Magic/Summoning/Spellcasting, in how you determine dice pools, limits, and how they generally work. But people not understanding the analogy is ultimately not a problem. You can grok how the mechanics for Resonance work without ever seeing the parallels to how the magic system works. The big difference is the limitations of the former, and how the mechanics don't bear out either the power or options of the latter, in the specific sphere that the former occupies (the Matrix), as others have already gone into depth about.

It's fairly easy for a decker (the obvious role parallel) or a mage (the obvious how-these-mechanics-work parallel) to have secondary roles, or to be good in both the Matrix and the meat, for deckers, or the astral and the meat, for Awakened. It's not easy for a TM to be good at multiple things, because Resonance lacks the meatspace bonuses that deckers can buy and Awakened can simply get through magic.

To me one of the big problems this edition is the total lack of rather fundamental option-providing and capability-boosting mechanics for technomancers like Streams, Paragons, and Widgets, which really helped them in 4th but for some reason are STILL absent in 5th (I consider these to be core mechanics on the level of traditions, mentor spirits and foci; why they were not in the Matrix book, if not the core book itself, is beyond me).

All in all, I am just seeking to see if that is the same sort of issue I see here on the forums without having to go back and dig through countless threads that are mostly just complaining.

This comes across like complaints without proposed solutions are inherently wrong, or that they have no valid basis. If a lot of mechanically-savvy people are complaining about how something seems to work, that's multiple data points, not just random whining.

[FST_Gemstar]

Didn't mean to be combative.

I didn't know 4th worked like that!

I definitely think it makes sense for technomancers to focus on Compiling/Registering/Software while deckers do the Hacking/Cybercombat.

The only techno-cracker build I think could work without sprite dependence would be the the heavily 'wared lots of hacking skills technomancer. Their sprites aren't too much good to them to do conventional cracking (though even a little Suppression wouldn't hurt in a host) or sustain/boost CFs, and their Resonance would be too low to really use a lot of CFs. However, they will probably have high Logic so they can loan out a lot of low level machine sprites to their team (yay!). Game mechanics tend to favor this kind of technomancer I think, however, the lore seems to see technomancers and 'ware as more opposing than even magicians and 'ware. This is weird to me, as technomancers in my mind seem likely to have an affinity towards wireless tech and becoming "part of the machine/singularity," not averse to it.

I don't see a more typical technomancer character way a techno could attempt even a modest host run not using cracking skills without lots of sprites. My preferred route would be a socially infiltrating techno-face with skinlink and modest cracking skills. This would still probably use machine sprites for real world stuff and still require some sprite sustained and sprite powered CFs...

I think the sprite dependence marks a meaningful difference in playstyle from Magicians. You're right, magicians don't have to (and it wouldn't really pay to) use spirits the way technomancers use sprites. But they technically can (bpund spirits can sustain and add dice to spellcasting), and it could be a way to make a kind of magician that I don't often see. The big difference is that binding spirits costs reagents/money, and sprite registering is free. Just thinking about it though makes me a little annoyed though, so I can have some empathy for people who are annoyed with technomancers. Just remember that technomancers really don't have that choice!

Edit:

I think Whiskey hits it. Technomancer role/mechanics allow less breadth and bang than deckers (role parallel) and magicians (mechanic parrallel).
Steams/Paragons/Widgets would go along way to for technomancers to have the kind of mechanic parallels to magicians so that they may be better able to branch into secondary roles. I do think it is very odd that they were not included in Data Trails (when less important things IMO like complicated AI character creation/qualities, Foundation Runs, Dissonant technomancers [when regular ones weren't fleshed out yet], etc. were included]

[living]

beside the problems the matrix gives to all who handle it (y do you need a host [you dont understand] to manage your stuffershack if you could use an old wlan + server system for some bugs?) for balancing issues you just have to take a look on technomancers.

you need 4 high mental stats + myb body (to recover from the matrix dmg) -> you need atleast 16 abilitypoints more likely 20.
you need atleast registering, compiling, computer, hardware, software, cybercombat, myb e-warfare, hacking. that are 48 skillpoints, if you add perception and stealth you need 60 skill points. if you want some specialisation you need even more.
you need resonance 6
and you need high edge to cast some of your complexe forms because without edge you cant use them (you lack dices and the drain is too high).

if you get all these things. which doesnt leave much room for other things. then you are still worse then a hacker (no programms, cant use money to improve your matrix stats, no cerebralbooster, cerebrumbooster, nanits etc.). and you can do nothing else, no social skills, no survival, no what ever. in the meat world you got like agi 1, rea 1 str 1 initiative 1d+6, cant even think about shooting a weapon, climb a tree, run away from an dog (who would mostlikely kill you) or be of any use for a team outside the matrix. and mostliklely that will never change during progression.

i'd really like to see a technomancer build which can compete with a hacker and do something else (hacker have no probleme to be a more then competent mage/face/sam)

[Hobbes]

And I would so like to see straight up Technomancers hackers who don't rely on sprites to be elite

...and there's the rub.  You Buff Spriteless TMs to be on par with Deckers, suddenly Deckers are the inferior choice because "Everybody knows a Petnomancer can hack circles around a Decker...." 

It's really only an issue for Missions games since they're stuck with RAW.  Individual tables can and should houserule TMs (IMO) however seems right for that game.

TMs really need a ground up rework to work more like mages, less like Deckers.  Give them a Resonance Hacking skill of some kind and push them to choose between Sprites and Hacking.

[Herr Brackhaus]

My preferred house rule for Technomancers would be to bring back threading as it was in 4th, with some modifications to avoid the rampant abuse that was possible (TM could essentially be invisible from even milspec programs with a little bit of effort).

And the fact that I think the Technomancy rules needs the kind of ground up rework that Hobbes refers to is why I've chosen to just remove Technomancers entirely as a PC choice at my table, using them as plot devices instead of having to deal with gameplay mechanics I have weighed and found severely wanting.

I've also got a multitude of house rules for the Matrix in general, but that's a different story. I do think almost any table will have anywhere from a few to a lot of house rules for the Matrix, though, and the fact that Matrix interactions are barely used in Missions is something I find to be quite... interesting.

[Whiskeyjack]

and the fact that Matrix interactions are barely used in Missions is something I find to be quite... interesting.

I think that's because you're more likely to wind up with a bunch of sams and mages at a con where you're running missions, than you are with multiple deckers and stuff.

[Hobbes]

Actually, if you don't want to do a complete overhaul something like:

Publish a Technomancer source book.  Perhaps as an internet PDF?   'just sayin...

Technomancers now have Traditions like mages do.  The standard, RAW, Technomancer is, lets call them Petnomancers for this discussion.  Feel free to come up with your own name though.  We're now backwards compatible with all source books and existing characters.  Missions Characters can Respec if they want to, and each table is free to decide what is best for their game.

The next Technomancer tradition is, lets call them Hacknomancers.  Hacknomancers loose access to Registering, Compiling and De-compiling skills, but can substitute their Resonance stat for any other stat on any Matrix test.  With Exceptional Attribute Resonance a starting TM now has 13 dice on any Matrix test, with +2 to Matrix Perception, +2 from possible Specializations in the appropriate Skill, and potentially another +2 from CodeSlinger PQ.  17 Dice for Hack on the Fly?  Thanks, don't mind if I do!   

The third Technomancer tradition, Threadnomancers.  Hacking as RAW, no access to Registering, Compiling, and De-compiling skills.  Can add 1/2 their Resonance stat to any Fade Resistance or Threading test.  They also gain, call it triple the number of usual Complex Forums.  You'd want to add a lot of Complex Forums for these guys to really work.

Technomancer Riggers are also popular, but I'm not quite sure what you'd give/take to make them a more viable option.  The obvious start with some version of  Mind over Machine Submersion, and then maybe only let them have access to Machine Sprites, and no Complex Forums?  That seems like not enough, they'll need something else.  Technorigger?  Testing and tweaking needed.  Some kind of Resonance based Dice pool buff should come into play, but I'm not really sure what.  Or some way to share Autosofts, or write Autosofts maybe?  eh. 

And then come 6th edition you do it right  :  )

Catalyst is of course free to use these ideas, if the T&Cs of the web site don't already give them the right to   ; )

Peace!

[FST_Gemstar]

I thought i would just post a  bare structure of 'wared technomancer that isn't sprite dependent nor uses CFs that can try to hack at a level of a starting decker and not be a physical liability on a run. If someone can make one in priority I'd love to see it, as my attempts are just always short somewhere (skills, resources, or attributes) if I do. This character starts with 58k for gear (nice for a technomancer, maybe even a car!) and 0 karma. Character can save some more essence/cram more 'ware if wanting to start with less nuyen. Of course the character uses cram/psyche to keep up in the meat/AR, to have some defense dice, and boost those "decking" pools.

I would still argue that  a similar built decker could be built in Priority and more versatile and with secondary skill options. The character sheet does kind of scream "just  barely keeping up". Even though I prefer Sum-to-Ten, that Priority is the Core build format to me is the benchmark for the kinds of characters Shadowrun is built to make. This really isn't one of them, then, though it's the way most GMs/players expect a technomancer to work. I think it demonstrates why technomancers seem lacking/frustrating to lot of folks (I don't think the Priority system lets a technomancer play like this). It also uses a lot from non-core supplements.

Karma spent: 20 on PQs, 10 on Nuyen, 20 on Attributes, -25 on NQs = 0 Remaining

[spoiler]== Info ==
Name: Unnamed Character           Alias:
Human                             Movement: 6/12
                                  Composure: 8
Street Cred: 0                    Judge Intentions: 9
Notoriety: 0                      Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Public Awareness: 0               Memory: 13
Karma: 0                          Nuyen: 58080
Age:                              Skin:
Eyes:                             Hair:

== Priorities ==
Metatype: E(0) - Human
Attributes: B(3) - 20 Attributes
Special: C(2) - Adept, Magician, or Technomancer
Skills: C(2) - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: B(3) - 275,000¥

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3                            CHA: 3
AGI: 2 (3)                        INT: 5 (6)
REA: 4                            LOG: 6 (
STR: 2                            WIL: 5
EDG: 3                            RES: 1

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 4.0                      Initiative:           9 (10) + 1d6
Physical Damage Track: 11         Rigger Init:          10 + 1d6
Stun Damage Track: 11             Astral Init:         
Physical: 4                       Matrix AR Init:       10 + 1d6
Mental: 9                         Matrix VR Cold Init:  6 + DP + 3d6
Social: 5                         Matrix VR Hot Init:   6 + DP + 4d6
Astral: 9

== Active Skills ==
Compiling (Machine)               Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 2 (4)
Computer (Matrix Perception)      Base: 3  + Karma: 0  = 3   Pool: 11 (13)
Con                               Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 4
Disguise                          Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 7
Electronic Warfare                Base: 2  + Karma: 0  = 2   Pool: 10
Hacking (Hosts)                   Base: 6  + Karma: 0  = 6   Pool: 14 (16)
Hardware (Jacking Out)            Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 9 (11)
Impersonation                     Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 4
Palming                           Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 4
Perception (Visual)               Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 7 (9)
Performance                       Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 4
Pistols (Semi-Automatics)         Base: 2  + Karma: 0  = 2   Pool: 5 (7)
Registering (Machine)             Base: 3  + Karma: 0  = 3   Pool: 4 (6)
Sneaking                          Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 4
Software (Data Bombs)             Base: 1  + Karma: 0  = 1   Pool: 9 (11)

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Qualities ==
Addiction (Mild) (Psyche)
Addiction (Mild) (Cram)
Biocompatability (Cyberware)
Codeslinger (Hack on the Fly)
Impassive
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Quick Healer
Technomancer
Weak Immune System

== Cyberware/Bioware == (all standard)
Cerebellum Booster Rating 1
Cerebral Booster Rating 2
Muscle Toner Rating 1 (to not be super slow and to buy a sneaking test hit)
Narco
Synthetic Full Arm (AGI 9, STR 3, Physical 5) (Right)
   +Armor Rating 2
   +Customized Agility Rating 6
   +Enhanced Agility Rating 3
   +Cyberarm Slide (for a holdout)
Sleep Regulator

== Commlink ==
Living Persona (ATT: 3, SLZ: 6, DP: 8, FWL: 5) [/spoiler]

[living]

i guess the huge flaws of the build (no offense) are obvious. or does someone needed them pointed out?

i play a technomancer in our group, it took me like 150 karma and 600k nuyen to go from resonanz 6 to 1 (to build in a lot of cyberware like cerebralbooser, cerelumbooster, nanits, gentech etc etc.) and back again to resonance 6. know i can compete with our 30 karma hacker...  but i still got beaten by every street dog, luckily i got a pain editor so it doesnt hurt...

[ScytheKnight]

I think one of the biggest issues for those of us interested in playing Technomancers is we've been come-alonged twice now...

First there was Data Trails which offered almost nothing to Technomancers (while giving Deckers a bucket load of stuff). Not only that, but some of what Technomancers where offered are flat out not even for SR5 rules!

We then get told "Don't worry guys, there's a dedicated Technomancer e-pub in the works, here's a thread to give you feedback." There's grumbling but at least there's light to be seen.

Then we get told "Sorry guys, we lost the lead writer on that Technomancer e-pub... it's still going but there's an entire new team who is starting completely from scratch... yeah sorry we have absolutely no ETA on it now."

Stuff that could actually help Technomancers got farmed out of any main books because "A dedicated Technomancer book is in the works." except it seems to be now circling the same black hole that swallowed official Errata.

[living]

the annoying thing is announcing sth and then dont communicate after the date. i guess every one will understand good reason for delays, or even help to fix issues. a lot of players a pretty familiar with char creation and scaling. i for myself have made countless builds and looked for exploids or stumbled over unclear ruling. i dont know how much consulting is there, but i guess for a free copy of the book it would be possible to get a lot of help from the community (not that they decide how things should work, but that they explain flaws or implications of new rulings).

i would mind the time i spend anyway on it to share some calculations or loopholes with devolpers. and most are an easy fix.

[NoxMortem]

In addition to "vague rules". If TM are considered too weak or strong is often dependant on exactly how those vague rules are interpreted:

• Sprites and Teamwork tests
• Registering sprites during downtime
• Sharing of marks as not all sprites do have the skill to hack their own marks which makes them pretty pointless if they are not shared
• Possibility to call sprites inside of a host

[KraakenDazs]

I'm not hugely familiar with technomancers but i feel they start out underwhelming, but can end up fairly efficient.

But Resonance, like Magic, can be initiated fairly high, whereas Logic and other attributes for deckers end up capped at Augmented Racial Maximums (Not even 4 too since the Cereb Boosters are up to rank 3).

So as you grow as a technomancer your abilities grow beyond the hapless decker, requiring much more nuyen and gear to keep up, and exponentially pricy equipement.

And yes, the technomancer is a dead-ringer mechanics-wise to the magician, but without all of the same options. Magicians have traditions, longer spell possibilities, FOCI which can make a big difference, ally spirits, etc.

I don't think technos are as dramatically underpowered as everyone thinks they are, just...not as great right off the bat.

[Whiskeyjack]

So as you grow as a technomancer your abilities grow beyond the hapless decker, requiring much more nuyen and gear to keep up, and exponentially pricy equipement.

. . .

I don't think technos are as dramatically underpowered as everyone thinks they are, just...not as great right off the bat.

The larger problem here is that most games don't go into the ultra-long-term that some posters here have experienced. Most games get to a couple hundred karma at best, if that. If TMs are only good after (arbitrarily) 100 karma, then there's a big swath of the typical gameplay experience where they can't keep up.

And while your techno is growing into being better at the Matrix, sure the decker's Attributes are capped, but he can grow his Skills to throw even more dice, or take up alternate roles, or whatnot - and if the TM does that, he's still behind in the role the game seems to envision for him, just more spread out.

The notion that TMs are ok, based on the assumptions of infinite karma in the longitudinal period...okay, maybe in the white room this is true (though deckers are still improving, as described), but in play, it just doesn't pan out unless you're like Wyrm and playing in the same game for 10+ years, with 1500 karma or whatever crazy amount his mage has. Which is a cool experience, but in no way a typical one.