[RHat]

Clout is a Phyiscal spell, and thus has +1 Drain.  IT can also be used to hit something with physical force, while Stunbolt cannot.

[Kiirnodel]

"physical force" that can't damage anything other than a person. It is Stun damage so it can't break glass, can't damage inanimate objects. The spell does less damage for more drain.

[RHat]

You really think that someone has to have Killing Hands, Bone Lacing, or Hardliner gloves just to break glass or damage inanimate objects?

[All4BigGuns]

You really think that someone has to have Killing Hands, Bone Lacing, or Hardliner gloves just to break glass or damage inanimate objects?

Don't know about him, since I don't know him, but that's exactly the kind of bull-crap that a Rules Lawyer would claim.

[Retrokinesis]

You really think that someone has to have Killing Hands, Bone Lacing, or Hardliner gloves just to break glass or damage inanimate objects?

Don't know about him, since I don't know him, but that's exactly the kind of bull-crap that a Rules Lawyer would claim.

That it's physically impossible to so much as scratch glass with your bare hands but put some gloves on and it's easy?

[RHat]

Actually, I just checked the Barrier rules - there's no immunity to stun in there.  A Force 10 Clout cast by a character with Spellcasting(Combat) 6( + Magic 5 + Mentor Spirit 2 + Power Focus 4 does an expected 16.33, which is enough that you could expect to destroy (or punch a hole in) a brick or plascrete wall.

[All4BigGuns]

Actually, I just checked the Barrier rules - there's no immunity to stun in there.  A Force 10 Clout cast by a character with Spellcasting(Combat) 6( + Magic 5 + Mentor Spirit 2 + Power Focus 4 does an expected 16.33, which is enough that you could expect to destroy (or punch a hole in) a brick or plascrete wall.

There goes the straw-man with using Clout to defend the optional rule. Up In Flames.

[RHat]

...  Now I want to design a spell worthy of the name Up In Flames. 

[RHat]

...  Now I want to design a spell worthy of the name Up In Flames. 

Actually, it's worth pointing out that the Damaging Barriers table doesn't note damage as Physical or Stun.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Why are we even thinking they would be immune to stun damage at all?  Just because the vehicles entry specifies that vehicles and drones are immune to stun damage?

[RHat]

I think Kiirnodel was conflating the two, yes.

[Kiirnodel]

Sorry you're right, that still wasn't comparing the same sort of spells. One was Physical and the other was Mana. Make a Physical version of Stunbolt (not Mana). Or a Physical damage version of Clout... The two spells have exactly the same stats, same Drain, same targets available, because apparently objects aren't immune to Stun, just immune to damage that doesn't exceed their armor value (thanks for pointing that out!). Only difference is one is Direct, the other is Indirect.

We'll use the Physical damage spell as our example though.

Direct Physical spells are resisted by Body (+ Counterspelling).

Indirect spells are resisted by Reaction (+ Counterspelling), + Body + half Impact.

Same Drain, pretty much guaranteed less damage with that Indirect Spell.

My complaint is exactly this. Direct Spells are "resisted" by Attribute + Counterspelling. That is basically a lie, it isn't a resistance, just a dodge. If you don't fully dodge the spell, you haven't resisted anything. You take the full damage.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

It's the exact opposite of that.  There is no dodging a direct spell.  The Willpower+Counterspelling roll is a resistance spell, not avoidance.

[Kiirnodel]

Right, Direct spells skip one of the steps, and it doesn't cost any drain or anything. Hence why the Optional rule makes sense. Not saying it's fully balanced, just that it makes sense.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Mhmm, and a direct spell can't hit things you can't see.  There are no special effects for direct combat spells.  It won't set a room ablaze or force a vehicle to make a control check or any other elemental effect.  They serve different purposes.  This is why you don't just buy 1 combat spell and say to yourself "That's all I need."