Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: tasti man LH on <04-10-14/0044:56>

Title: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: tasti man LH on <04-10-14/0044:56>
Drivethru RPG link here. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/128355/Shadowrun-Run--Gun)

Start grabbin' your guns and blowin' shit up!

(can't get the book now; will have to wait a couple of days)
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-10-14/0100:36>
GREAT SCOTT!
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Agonar on <04-10-14/0105:42>
Sweet!..  now I have something to read
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-10-14/0210:34>
Oh wow.. its live and one of the things the Armante' armor clothing has a dice pool bonus of +1 if you are wireless.. My technomancers will love that stuff.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-10-14/0213:42>
My favorite so far is the sniper rifle with the comlink.  "Sorry honey, I'm in the middle of something right now, can I call you back?"  Pomph.  Pomph.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-10-14/0252:38>
Ash Arms Combat Chainsaw?!?  Really?!?  Have you guys no shame?   ::)  ROFL
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: AJCarrington on <04-10-14/0426:52>
Look at that...will be downloading tonight for my return trip tomorrow...should be a great way to kill 8 hours on a plane. ;D
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Dinendae on <04-10-14/0428:55>
Look at that...will be downloading tonight for my return trip tomorrow...should be a great way to kill 8 hours on a plane. ;D

Eight hours? Are you flying from Europe to the States or vice versa?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/0429:35>
No weapon modifications... :'( But at least there's an Interrupt Action against grenades. Also, Terracotta Arms AM-47. :)
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: AJCarrington on <04-10-14/0432:54>
Eight hours? Are you flying from Europe to the States or vice versa?

Been in northern Sweden this week; flying to Frankfurt tonight and then back to the US tomorrow.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Dinendae on <04-10-14/0437:14>
Eight hours? Are you flying from Europe to the States or vice versa?

Been in northern Sweden this week; flying to Frankfurt tonight and then back to the US tomorrow.

Thought it was somewhere around that time zone. I was stationed in Kitzingen, Germany and that was about the length of my flights back home (emergency landings for not having enough fuel or engines catching on fire not withstanding!).
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-10-14/0540:21>
Yes!  Tac-Net!  Wooooooooo!  *rolls around*

Now if only Data Trails would come and make it so my TM could emulate a tacnet like in 4th...  I don't care about any mechanical benefits, being able to do that had so much style and flavor.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-10-14/0545:09>
Yes!  Tac-Net!  Wooooooooo!  *rolls around*

Now if only Data Trails would come and make it so my TM could emulate a tacnet like in 4th...  I don't care about any mechanical benefits, being able to do that had so much style and flavor.

Given the costs and availability?  Thinking that's not gonna work out.  Which sucks.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-10-14/0554:57>
Yyyyyeah.  Those make absolutely no fucking sense.  "Basic, civilian level" is 18F and over 500,000¥?  What the hell, no player is ever going to use that.  And that's prettymuch only giving you a +1 to Perception tests...  The rest of the stuff you don't need a tacnet for, save for exact GPS positioning, but still.  *sighs*  That is such a massive let down.  I'd rather they weren't added if they were gonna be totally impractical.  It doesn't make any sense in-world either.  I mean...  Rating 4 Tacnet, 12,000 nuyen, better bonuses, to more things, and more options.

>.>  I got excited before I actually read about them, and now I'm kinda pissed.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-10-14/0557:24>
Yeah, even as a "buy it once for the whole team, definitely not for starting characters" thing it's a bit ridiculous.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-10-14/0619:04>
I find a lot of quirky humor in the corporations and their weapons... I had someone question my Technomancer "The Red Queen" because they didn't believe anyone would even care about the lewis carol books in this age.. and now there is a weapon there called "The Queen of Hearts"
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-10-14/0633:31>
The martial arts section is pretty huge...  And the called shots and other combat options are awesome.

Sadly, they also finally stated how much repairing drones costs...  10% per box of damage.  Ugh.  The idea of having to pay 2,500¥ for every box of damage done to your Steel Lynx frightens me.  Even just 400¥ for the lower ones sucks, because they're gonna take that much more damage.  I mean, gimme a break.  I'd already be trying to not just immediately lose a Doberman to three shots with it's 4 BOD and 4 Armor.  They really do just hate the idea of combat drones in this edition I think...  At this point I can't even see corps using them as guards anymore, it's just not cost effective, and honestly probably cheaper to pay for a hospital stay for a metahuman guard than it is to repair a broken drone or constantly buy new ones.  Actually...  Assuming someone is rolling 6 dice (which is a bit low for guards), it would honestly probably be cheaper, regardless of if it's 500 a day or 1000 a day (from which they may heal nearly twice as fast), to pay for a guard to be in a hospital than it would be to get a new drone.

That is dumb.  :|
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Sendaz on <04-10-14/0637:13>
Heh,

If CanRay hated tasers stunning over and over, he better hope they never implement  the called shot effects on specific body parts for SRR because a mob of hobos doing this will ruin your day. :P

Eye Gouging, Kneecapping, Ear Clap, Monkey reaching for Peaches (hitting below the belt), Slitting Throats ... now this is good old fashioned dirty fighting. :)


@Firebug Keep an eye out for the magic splat book...  Street Magic used to have a spell for repairing devices and if it carries over a Mage Mechanic may be your new best buddy for maintaining your drones ;)  Granted they do have to overcome OR, but every bit helps.  Also there was another spell to reinforce a device (basically armor spell for drones without the neon glow) so that may have uses as well.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/0710:56>
Sadly, they also finally stated how much repairing drones costs...  10% per box of damage.  Ugh.
Seriously? More fragile drones should translate to 10x as much repair costs all of a sudden? What the hell. Wonder how long it will take for my girlfriend to just make a new Missions character, since such massive repair costs prove they hate Riggers rather than just be careless with them. You don't see a street samurai lose an entire run's payment on a medical bill.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Oski on <04-10-14/0735:24>
Hard copy version comes out in a month, correct?  I really prefer having bound books, and I plan to wait (with great anticipation) til the hard copy release.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Dinendae on <04-10-14/0745:20>
The martial arts section is pretty huge...  And the called shots and other combat options are awesome.

Sadly, they also finally stated how much repairing drones costs...  10% per box of damage.  Ugh.  The idea of having to pay 2,500¥ for every box of damage done to your Steel Lynx frightens me.  Even just 400¥ for the lower ones sucks, because they're gonna take that much more damage.  I mean, gimme a break.  I'd already be trying to not just immediately lose a Doberman to three shots with it's 4 BOD and 4 Armor.  They really do just hate the idea of combat drones in this edition I think...  At this point I can't even see corps using them as guards anymore, it's just not cost effective, and honestly probably cheaper to pay for a hospital stay for a metahuman guard than it is to repair a broken drone or constantly buy new ones.  Actually...  Assuming someone is rolling 6 dice (which is a bit low for guards), it would honestly probably be cheaper, regardless of if it's 500 a day or 1000 a day (from which they may heal nearly twice as fast), to pay for a guard to be in a hospital than it would be to get a new drone.

That is dumb.  :|

Are the martial arts optional rules this time around? That sucks about the drone repair costs; there goes my idea of having my decker branch out into that area at all.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/0745:33>
Dunno when there will be a hard copy version, not sure if anyone knows. The only month-term that was mentioned was regarding Missions rules.

The Pre-Order page of the bundles doesn't have any release date either: http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=cat27003&x=-1020&y=-1238
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <04-10-14/0901:40>
Very early impressions

The Good
1) The recoil errata had a lot of people complaining, myself included.  The new shooting options help smooth some of my ruffled feathers, although I'm still concerned that the 6-round FA burst will become the option of choice.
2) Guns!  Useful guns!  The HK Urban Combat appears (In English!)
3) The martial arts section is very extensive.  I haven't picked through it yet to see if there's something terrible and broken in there, but it should really help shape common archetypes.
4) Some interesting new Positive Qualities.
5) The dedication to Tinner.
6) It's fun to read.  For a gear book, this is a huge plus.

The Bad
1) That's a lot of page count spent on rules for runs in outer space.  They happen, but they aren't exactly common.
2) No gun mods ala Arsenal.  I really miss my undetectable pistol!  The return of the Puzzler is nice, but still...
3) My own little pet peeve: No Ruger Thunderbolt or Colt Manhunter.   :(  I love those guns and was really hoping to see at least one in R&G.  The Guardian makes a comeback, but its BF shot is still a Complex Action.  In an edition in which any SA gun can fire in BF as a Complex Action, the usefulness of this feature is really limited.
4) The internal/integral accessory issue with weapons isn't entirely resolved.  There's further evidence that the writers use them to mean the same thing (so weapons that come with various add-ons have those slots filled), but nothing clearly laid out.
5) Skinlink appears on a chart, but there are no rules for it in the write-up section.
6) One of the examples has someone using Dodge to avoid a bullet.

Neither good nor bad:
1) Holy hell, did Shock Gloves get nerfed!
2) My decker is going to be the most brand-loyal runner you've ever met.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: AJCarrington on <04-10-14/1046:01>
(emergency landings for not having enough fuel or engines catching on fire not withstanding!).

Come on, you're taking all the fun out of travel... ::)
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: grimjaws on <04-10-14/1138:56>
I'm really looking forward to the hardcopy coming out. I moved to a new part of the country so I think I'll check out how responsive the LGS will be to ordering something specific.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: SlowDeck on <04-10-14/1601:14>
I'm going to be honest and say I really think the space stuff should have been saved for a later book. Mainly, all of that information on space really could benefit from far more content, specifically of the kind that comes from a book dedicated to expanding it.

Also, I do think this book had not enough weapons or armor. It could have used more of both for the general runner.

That said, the repair issue this book brings up creates a feeling that the next two books need to be dedicated to rigging and magic. Magic to include spells focused on repair and rigging to include more drones, vehicles, modifications for both, and potential repair options.

I also hope there will be a later book on customizing that includes far greater customization options for weapons. And also, potentially, even for spells, cyberdecks, vehicles, drones, cyberware, and bioware. Perhaps bring back genetic enhancements in that book too. That would make it a very, very useful resource and easy enough to ignore if you don't want those options.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: CanRay on <04-10-14/1603:26>
Ash Arms Combat Chainsaw?!?  Really?!?  Have you guys no shame?   ::)  ROFL
No, we don't.
No weapon modifications... :'( But at least there's an Interrupt Action against grenades. Also, Terracotta Arms AM-47. :)
Look at the items starting on page 50.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Mauler on <04-10-14/1657:39>
I am really curious about this edition's rules for high velocity weapons. Downloading....
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-10-14/1700:31>
Anyone notice the availability of the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle is now 12R.   :o  Granted it is still 26 thousand but still the heaviest weapon available at chargen. 
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Dinendae on <04-10-14/1702:33>
Anyone notice the availability of the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle is now 12R.   :o  Granted it is still 26 thousand but still the heaviest weapon available at chargen.

Someone mentioned in the Errata thread for it that it is 12 on one page, and 24 on another.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-10-14/1704:00>
Oh well.   :'(
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-10-14/1718:49>
No weapon modifications... :'( But at least there's an Interrupt Action against grenades. Also, Terracotta Arms AM-47. :)
Look at the items starting on page 50.

But...  But...  I want my reduced barrel, internally silenced, ceramic construction Government 2066...

I am really curious about this edition's rules for high velocity weapons. Downloading....

Weirdly, there are high velocity weapons and a minigun printed, but no rules for them that I can find.  As a result, the HVAR kinda just sucks, as does the Vindicator.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: CanRay on <04-10-14/1722:37>
No weapon modifications... :'( But at least there's an Interrupt Action against grenades. Also, Terracotta Arms AM-47. :)
Look at the items starting on page 50.
But...  But...  I want my reduced barrel, internally silenced, ceramic construction Government 2066...
*Cough* (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw)  You can start with the Colt Agent Special from Gun H(e)aven 3.  ;D
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/1727:17>
No weapon modifications... :'( But at least there's an Interrupt Action against grenades. Also, Terracotta Arms AM-47. :)
Look at the items starting on page 50.
Gimme a sec, getting it as pdf reward now.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-10-14/1734:04>
No weapon modifications... :'( But at least there's an Interrupt Action against grenades. Also, Terracotta Arms AM-47. :)
Look at the items starting on page 50.
But...  But...  I want my reduced barrel, internally silenced, ceramic construction Government 2066...
*Cough* (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw)  You can start with the Colt Agent Special from Gun H(e)aven 3.  ;D

Yes, but that doesn't serve as my M1911 stand-in, doesn't have Electronic Firing (which we still lack rules for - and was part of what made that weapon so nice in the first place), and is perfectly simple to detect.

My point, though, is that these don't really feel like mod rules, you know?  It doesn't give you that ability to really customize a weapon that people are looking for with rules for that sort of thing; it just feels like another way to put accessories on a weapon.  There are certain weapon/mod combos in SR4 that, yeah, I'm a little attached to, but having that capability in there really made it possible to make your weapons feel like they were yours, and gave people with the skills and equipment to do the modifying a lot of room to shine.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-10-14/1843:49>
Agreed.  In Arsenal you could get custom grips, customized appearance, extra long barrels, oversized cylinders for revolvers, etc.  This seems really lacking.  One thing i had been really hoping for was custom grips that could give a +1 to accuracy for melee and/or ranged weapons.  Also, where are the spare drums for all the drum fed weapons? 
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-10-14/1938:12>
They still haven't addressed the cost of flamethrower ammo, which bothers me.  And they were a little unclear about something else with them, too.  The one in the book has a clip for its ammo type, but specifically takes a whole combat turn to change.  Does that also apply to the one in Gun H(e)aven 3?  Shame, here I was hoping I'd have a stupidly fast reload speed for a flamethrower.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Sendaz on <04-10-14/1946:11>
Well a CT is just 3 seconds, which is pretty good time to pop off a tank and replace and tighten all the appropriate valves/hoses/whatever because I would rather have it working right than say leaking volatile fluids on/around me. ;)

Why not customize one to sport a second tank so you can keep firing while a team member is swapping out the empty?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/2004:16>
So if I use an AM-47 with my character against my character as undefended snipe-shot, while wearing Hardened Armor and scoring 6 net hits, I'd take 4P damage average. At 3 net hits, it'd be 1.5S. Noice. :)
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-10-14/2010:47>
Well a CT is just 3 seconds, which is pretty good time to pop off a tank and replace and tighten all the appropriate valves/hoses/whatever because I would rather have it working right than say leaking volatile fluids on/around me. ;)

Why not customize one to sport a second tank so you can keep firing while a team member is swapping out the empty?

Oh I'm not saying it's bad.  It's better than the ones in 4th, for sure.  Just a shame that having a lot of passes kind of makes it worse to use, I think...  Since I would assume you need to give up the rest of your passes for it to be the whole combat turn.  But then you could just do it as your last action...  Hmm.

And then of course, how does a drone handle it?  'Cause this is a case where the drone's "250 rounds" would only make sense for it to not need to reload.  Then of course, you've got a -lot- of flammable liquid inside that drone, and they're a walking incendiary explosive.  Anyways this is pretty off-topic.


How do people feel about the ability to make the -5 Initiative Dodge/Block/Parry actions last all round?  And the other changes to defensive interrupts, like the (sometimes comedic) qualities to use other attributes or skills in place of Willpower for Full Defense (+Agility?  And thus still not adding a Limit?  Mother of God...) and the badass new stuff like catching a fragging grenade and throwing it back immediately.

The first thing is neat.  On one hand it makes Full Defense less good, but it still stacks with it, and the other qualities can make Full Defense much, much better.  I like all the new counterattack interrupts.  Very stylish, great for feeling like a martial arts master.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <04-10-14/2020:08>
I like them--I'm really looking forward to yelling, "Not in the face!" with my high-Cha character at some point.  Now that my Shock Glove is terrible, I'm really interested in looking into making ways of getting the most out of Counterstrike--it seems like you can get an extra attack in there with the right initiative. 
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/2026:43>
Ohmygod. I can Softweave MilSpec? I am SO using my Missions favor for that...

I find page 87 problematic. I really miss a page explaining how armor modifications work, whether you can get extra modifications after initial purchase, and what the idea of armor add-ons is. Can you only get them with Spacesuits, or are they options for other pieces of armor as well, so for example attaching climbing gear to your armor jacket so you got your hands free without carrying a bag with you?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: samoth on <04-10-14/2049:05>
Am I reading correctly that there is no gun mod section?

If so, why did the guns in GH3 have mods like electronic firing if they aren't statted anywhere else?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-10-14/2050:57>
Am I reading correctly that there is no gun mod section?

If so, why did the guns in GH3 have mods like electronic firing if they aren't statted anywhere else?

They're all considered "accessories".  Some internal, some external.  The accessories section is actually pretty indepth, so I feel like the modding system from 4th won't come back, but other books will be adding more accessories.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <04-10-14/2052:59>
Am I reading correctly that there is no gun mod section?

If so, why did the guns in GH3 have mods like electronic firing if they aren't statted anywhere else?

There are what used to be called accessories (underbarrel grenade launchers, range finders, etc.), but the "6 slot" system of Arsenal isn't in there.

Can't really answer question 2.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/2054:27>
Technically, we do have '6 slots', but rather than having 6 internal capacity 'slots' with items taking variable amount of slots, we have 6 mount-slots that things can go into, so things can clash more easily in some cases. Kinda weird how ML, Electronic Firing and such are missing.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-10-14/2058:19>
And there are a few things that don't take up any slots.  Slightly annoyed to see Firing Selection Change be absent, too.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/2104:24>
Finally got to TacNet and I wonder if TacNet1 is perhaps meant to be 12R instead of 18F.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <04-10-14/2105:48>
Double clips was the mod I was really hoping for--my sniper rifle needs to be able to toggle from lethal to non-lethal.

Any yeah, Michael, for something that is used by paintballers, you'd think it wouldn't a) be some damn expensive and b) not forbidden to own.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-10-14/2106:22>
Finally got to TacNet and I wonder if TacNet1 is perhaps meant to be 12R instead of 18F.

The cost is absolutely terrible, but not immediately "this makes no sense".  But yeah, the "basic, civilian package" that's supposedly used by big game hunters being Forbidden doesn't make any sense at all.  Forbidden means no civilian can legally own it ever.

Any yeah, Michael, for something that is used by paintballers, you'd think it wouldn't a) be some damn expensive and b) not forbidden to own.

Ugh!  I forgot that detail of the previous TacNet.  That really makes this edition's TacNets seem totally unfathomable.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <04-10-14/2112:19>
Finally got to TacNet and I wonder if TacNet1 is perhaps meant to be 12R instead of 18F.

The cost is absolutely terrible, but not immediately "this makes no sense".  But yeah, the "basic, civilian package" that's supposedly used by big game hunters being Forbidden doesn't make any sense at all.  Forbidden means no civilian can legally own it ever.

Any yeah, Michael, for something that is used by paintballers, you'd think it wouldn't a) be some damn expensive and b) not forbidden to own.

Ugh!  I forgot that detail of the previous TacNet.  That really makes this edition's TacNets seem totally unfathomable.

To add fuel to the fire, the general text regarding tacnet: "PI-Tac units are now available to civilians—once said civilian has passed a background check and been issued a permit." which is pretty much the definition of restricted gear (and I guess indicates the need to buy a new fake license).
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/2120:01>
I'm also confused by the costs. Is that per unit, or as general price for an entire set/server/something that the entire team can run on?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-10-14/2127:29>
Based on the description I would say that is the cost of one unit where one unit can be used by DR x 1.5 so a PI-Tac I unit can be used by up to six members.  Still frakking expensive even split 6 ways. 
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-10-14/2150:05>
We got another weird case: AV rounds, AV Assault Cannon rounds and Hi-C rounds are not in the book, but they are listed in Ammo Whammy.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-10-14/2243:29>
I always wondered; how come there's no way to have a skillsoft of a martial arts technique?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Redwulfe on <04-10-14/2356:28>
I know it's probably a small thing but on the vehicle called shots it list most things. It the one that would be, IMO, the most common thing to shoot at the tires.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: tasti man LH on <04-11-14/0317:04>
Soooo....combat chainsaw, huh? How'd the quote again?

Quote
"A chainsaw!? Oh yeah, just go right ahead and advertise the fact that you're a raving lunatic who doesn't care about splattering blood all over twenty witnesses who can positively I.D. Us?"

"...But...it's so cool..."
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-11-14/0629:54>
I know it's probably a small thing but on the vehicle called shots it list most things. It the one that would be, IMO, the most common thing to shoot at the tires.
Well technically shooting out tires is already specified in SR5 core, page 205. So I'm guessing it uses a normal -4.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: gmoney999 on <04-11-14/0922:57>
How did shock gloves get nerved? didn't see that.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <04-11-14/0935:06>
How did shock gloves get nerved? didn't see that.

Page 124 under "Touch-Only Attack."  "These attacks don't benefit from net hits on the attack to increase Damage Value."  From a "it makes sense, mostly" standpoint, I don't have a problem with it, but there are a low of low Str characters out there who need to rethink their melee backup option.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: JackVII on <04-11-14/0950:45>
Page 124 under "Touch-Only Attack."  "These attacks don't benefit from net hits on the attack to increase Damage Value."  From a "it makes sense, mostly" standpoint, I don't have a problem with it, but there are a low of low Str characters out there who need to rethink their melee backup option.
Considering the default answer for any melee character that was unable to produce 8 DV through Strength+Weapon DV was "get shock gloves" I am guessing they considered that a problem. I'm okay with it personally.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-11-14/1119:34>
But that's not fully what that says. It says that you can make a Close Combat attack to touch them, so that you're in contact, and that during such an attack to make contact you can use shock weapons to inflict damage during that. Doesn't say that this overrides normal attacks with the weapons.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: JackVII on <04-11-14/1134:46>
Given that they refer to the SR5 BBB page number, I believe these are intended to supplement those rules. I guess you should probably check with Bull to see how that is supposed to play out in Missions.

Specifically, it seems the first paragraph deals with synchronizing touch only attacks with the new Clinch rules and the second clarifies how stun weapons work.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <04-11-14/1203:23>
I think it's a fair assumption that everything citing SR5 overrides the original text.  Most of this is done to include rules for clinching, but the staging of touch attack damage seems like a case of a rules change/clarification--the final paragraph reads as a standalone entry.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-11-14/1216:40>
Or it might be related to laying hands on them for casting spells.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: samoth on <04-11-14/1221:15>
I thought the DV was never modified for shock gloves in the first place; just a net success on the roll would do the base damage and -AP.  Maybe I've misread that all this time?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: JackVII on <04-11-14/1238:09>
I thought the DV was never modified for shock gloves in the first place; just a net success on the roll would do the base damage and -AP.  Maybe I've misread that all this time?
You actually didn't need a net success for a touch attack. Tie in that case when to the attacker. It was never very clear about how it worked, but there weren't any explicit rules about not staging damage up, so I guess it would go with the basic combat rules (net hits stage).
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-11-14/1247:34>
Given how SnS ammo doesn't have an exception, it'd be weird for the electrical melee attacks to not apply net hits.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-11-14/1307:58>
I just assumed with net hits the extra DV just meant you shocked something sensitive.   :o

I'm fine with no DV increase though.  I mean between the +2 dice you get for a touch only attack, the 9 DV, the -5 AP and the side effects of a electrical attack it seems a fair deal to me. 
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Dr. Meatgrinder on <04-11-14/1810:31>
You can still use Shock Gloves in a punch attack (per the item description, p. 423, SR5), which doesn't use the Touch-Only Attack rules at all.  There's nothing in the item description that requires the use of the Touch-Only Attack action.  It's just that if you use the Touch option, you get the +2 to hit, touch on a tie, and now suffer all the limitations of the Touch Attack.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <04-11-14/1909:09>
You can still use Shock Gloves in a punch attack (per the item description, p. 423, SR5), which doesn't use the Touch-Only Attack rules at all.  There's nothing in the item description that requires the use of the Touch-Only Attack action.  It's just that if you use the Touch option, you get the +2 to hit, touch on a tie, and now suffer all the limitations of the Touch Attack.

This was discussed awhile ago--a number of people (myself included) weren't thrilled with the concept of double-dipping on damage based off a single, unsplit, attack roll.  If a runner wants to grab a bad guy's head with a touch attack and drive her knee into his face, split your pool and have at it.  But a single punch doing both types of damage?  Way too easy to break.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Dr. Meatgrinder on <04-11-14/2308:38>
This was discussed awhile ago--a number of people (myself included) weren't thrilled with the concept of double-dipping on damage based off a single, unsplit, attack roll.  If a runner wants to grab a bad guy's head with a touch attack and drive her knee into his face, split your pool and have at it.  But a single punch doing both types of damage?  Way too easy to break.

I'm not suggesting that the punch does both regular unarmed damage and shock glove damage.  I'm suggesting that with the shock glove you're actually wielding a weapon (the shock glove)...it just happens to use the unarmed skill.  If you're using the shock glove as a weapon use the stats as stated for the weapon; if you're using the shock glove as just a glove use the stats for your unarmed punch.  But the shock glove says you can either touch or punch and I've seen nothing that removes the option.

If they had required spells and shock gloves to use only the Touch attack rule that might solve the problem.  But they didn't.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Csjarrat on <04-12-14/0754:41>
Anyone notice the availability of the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle is now 12R.   :o  Granted it is still 26 thousand but still the heaviest weapon available at chargen.
Its 12F, and the batteries aren't available at chargen.
only way you can utilise it is on a steel lynx combat drone (comes with a heavy weapon mount) as you can use its power source instead of battery packs.
pretty awesome to behold but it does show it as being 24F in the back of the book on the summary charts.
unfortunately its another case of the usual high-quality catalyst editing!
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: martinchaen on <04-12-14/1305:50>
Cross-posting this here, since I thought the writers might appreciate the constructive feedback from this customer.

I recently replied to another poster asking for opinions on Run & Gun, and this was my reply/review of my likes and dislikes of the book.

My list of pros:
1. The entire "Tactics and Tools" section
Not only does it provide a lot of cool fluff, but for someone who's executed maneuvers like travelling overwatch, counter peal, crossfire, and diamond formation in real-life this is one part of the rules where I think the developers did a fantastic job of capturing what tactical movement can look and feel like. Time will tell if the mechanics rely too heavily on the team leader rather proficient with the Small Unit Tactics skill, but I honestly think that if a runner team is built using real-world principles where everyone has a designated combat role with secondary and tertiary responsibilities, and everyone has just a rating or two of Small Unit Tactics, the team could absolutely rock over a similarly untrained team.

2. The fiction
There is a lot of awesome commentary that helps set the scene/mood for me personally, and I really appreciate the effort that's gone into the writing in terms of the in-game chatter. Great job to whomever wrote the various fiction pieces (Catspaw and Hostile Extraction in particular, but also all of the one page introductions to the chapters), with my favourite being the short intro to Tactics and Tools (shocker, I know, given the above...)

3. Alternate combat rules and additional actions
I really like having the RGX options for my table, and the expanded called shots rules, new actions, and martial arts rules are, for the most part, awesome. There's a few notable ones that need some attention, but all in all nothing that a house rule can't fix; the addition of martial art styles is cool, though overwhelming at first (I skimmed a few pages and then went "Nope! Too complex, save it for another day..."), but once I got a chance to assimilate all of the information I really like it.


And then the cons:
1. The editing and play testing/balancing process
While I think the fiction is awesome, I've got to give a big thumbs-down to the editing and play testing process; there are just so many inconsistencies with regards to the terminology used, a ton of weird grammar usage that make the rules more complex than they should be, and straight up parts that are spread all over the book, missing or ill-thought through. I WANT to like this book because the fiction makes it an awesome read but then I encounter parts of the rules that are just utterly incomprehensible and I feel a little let down. With enough house ruling these are not insurmountable obstacles, but I dislike the fact that in some cases house ruling is obviously needed. Which brings me neatly to...

2. Game/rule balance
Whoever thought the rules for Bulls-Eye Double-Tap/Burst, the repair rules, the PI-Soft rules, and the 5 page demolition rules for bringing down a building (to name a few) was a good idea needs to take a good, hard look at the consequences of their actions. There is no way in hell I'm letting an assault rifle get to -10 AP (at the very least, multiplying the base AP of -2 by x3 for a simple burst fire is the more conservative reading of those rules) for a mere -4 Dice Pool penalty; with a single well-placed burst from an Ares Alpha with a total dice pool modifier of -8 a character can take out the engine block of a Mitsubishi Nightsky, completely disabling the vehicle and causing the equivalent of 80,000¥ in damages (not even counting the 32,000¥ per box of damage this attack would inflict in addition if the "DV Limit" of "None" is representing no limit as opposed to no damage) for a mere 36¥ worth of APDS ammo and the rifle itself. And that's just the tip of the iceberg; PI-Soft rules are utterly ridiculous unless the intention is for GMs to just hand these out "on loan" from Johnsons (viable), the demo rules turns Shadowrun into Mathrun as far as I'm concerned, the majority of the Arsenal chapter is stuff I would rarely, if ever, get to use due to availability, cost or just a poor stat line, and the Martial Arts section is so overwhelmingly dense that it took me several days of dedicated study to figure it all out (and I'm still not sure I've got it down 100%).

3. The potential this book has to really slow down a game
As a GM, I love to hate this book. This goes back to my two previous con entires, in that not only am I as a GM expected to have a firm grasp of the base rules, but whenever a character now wants to hit someone in the [insert location here] I have to know what the rules for that specific location is in terms of how much damage he can do, what kind of effects are introduced, and how it is resisted. In an edition where the Matrix rules were significantly streamlined, some of the rules in Run & Gun throws a big ol' brick in the face of this method of thinking. I'm going to be spending a LOT of time referencing the book, and even though I know I can tell my players to know the rules for their stuff, I'll still be called upon knowing the effects they could possibly want to use that involves others. In short, the complexity of these rules makes me want to completely disallow some or most of them out of the game entirely, because they add too much paperwork to the game ("OK, you shot him in the ankle, so Henchman A can now only move AGI x1 for walking and AGI x2 for running, is not allowed to sprint, and is unable to perform any complex actions for the next 4 Combat Turns.") for my tastes.

These criticisms might seem harsh, and I freely admit I think they are myself, but I think that stems in large part due to my expectation that this book would add more width (breadth? I'm not a native English speaker) to the game, not more needlessly complicated depth.

Was it worth the 25USD I paid for it? Yeah, I would say so, even if I end up implementing house rules for half the content, this is still a great read.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: DeathStrobe on <04-12-14/1447:13>
What does the DV limit/ DV Max mean on the new called shots?

Does that mean that the damage has to do that amount of damage in order to have an effect or does it mean that it can only do that much DV when that called shot is done?

Lets say we do a called shot on an engine block  (p115 RAG), and we do that to the classic Bulldog (p463 core). Lets say we got a DP of 12, (6 agi + 6 gunnery). We spend our free action to do the called shot, take a -4 DP, so we now have 6DP to hit the engine block of the Bulldog. Lets go with the average and say we score 2 net hits with a (new) AK-98, so 10p + 2 hits = 12p. Lets assume for simplicity sake that the Bulldog is not moving, just so we can actually hit it.

The called shot rules says there is no DV limit, and says the effect of this shot is to disable the vehicle.  So the Bulldog gets its average soak of 9, the AK did only 3 damage to the bulldog. But does that mean I disabled the Bulldog? Permanently? Does the rigger that owns the Bulldog, if he jumps in, can he not even start it?

I don't think this sounds too over or underpowered, Because on the road, this called shot will be very unlikely to hit, I just want to make sure I got the rules right.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-12-14/1808:55>
There actually is a part in the rules, DS, where it states you must inflict damage to be able to cause the effect(s). Now with attacks with a max DV of 1, clearly this cannot be a restriction before soak, otherwise those shots would never actually work. So likely this means that the DV, after soak, is capped at that value. So you had 2 net hits which allows you to cause 1 effect, pick engine block destruction, do 12P, the car soaks 9, damage remains before the cap so the engine block got smashed and 3 damage was also inflicted.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: martinchaen on <04-12-14/1907:57>
There actually is a part in the rules, DS, where it states you must inflict damage to be able to cause the effect(s). Now with attacks with a max DV of 1, clearly this cannot be a restriction before soak, otherwise those shots would never actually work. So likely this means that the DV, after soak, is capped at that value. So you had 2 net hits which allows you to cause 1 effect, pick engine block destruction, do 12P, the car soaks 9, damage remains before the cap so the engine block got smashed and 3 damage was also inflicted.
Which sucks doubly for Riggers, because not only does that mean 30% of the vehicle value in repair costs under the Run & Gun rules, it also means an additional 25% of the vehicle value to replace the engine block.

Yeah. Riggers are totally getting (cam-)shafted...
Ba-dum-psssh!
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Cronstintein on <04-13-14/1159:13>
My initial interpretation of the dv limit was that it was the max damage you could apply while doing that specific called shot.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-13-14/1236:44>
My initial interpretation of the dv limit was that it was the max damage you could apply while doing that specific called shot.

Yeah that's what I understand it to be.  "The DV limit is the maximum amount of damage that can be applied with a successful attack on this location."  As in, the DV limit of "Ear" is 1.  No matter how crazy awesome you blow someone's ear off, it's just their ear, at they can never take more than 1 box of damage.

That's damage after the resistance test, by the way.  Since it states earlier that you need to do damage in order for the effect to happen; if it limited you before their resistance test, then it'd be near impossible to do most of the 1 DV Limit shots against anyone but unarmored hobos.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: martinchaen on <04-13-14/1308:14>
<znip>unarmored hobos.
Heh, well, we all know how dangerous those can be, neh? :D
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Dinendae on <04-14-14/0423:07>
<znip>unarmored hobos.
Heh, well, we all know how dangerous those can be, neh? :D

*Cue CanRay and a comment about tasers!*

;D
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Sendaz on <04-14-14/0758:32>
<znip>unarmored hobos.
Heh, well, we all know how dangerous those can be, neh? :D

*Cue CanRay and a comment about tasers!*

;D
I heard the next update to SSR gives all the hoboes some MA (rumoured to called Tesla's Kiss?) to improve their tasering skills. :p
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Mäx on <04-14-14/1137:50>
Gotta say im utterly disappointed how small amount of guns and non specialized armor the book delivers, especially as there are about million new called shots and hundred martial art styles.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-14-14/1234:45>
Gotta say im utterly disappointed how small amount of guns and non specialized armor the book delivers, especially as there are about million new called shots and hundred martial art styles.

Meh.  With Gun H(e)aven 3, there's not so much of a reason to load it up with weapons, especially since a lot of them might really be too similar.  About three weapons per weapon type isn't so bad.

The armor though, I know what you mean.  I was surprised when I wanted to consider new armor for my character, but then realized "She wouldn't be caught dead in fancy dress or a suit, but all the specialized armor is either worse than a basic armor vest or not something you could get away with wearing most of the time."

So the High Fashion Armor Clothing section didn't really help, and the specialized armor was either corp/law enforcment only, or else had a very low armor value.  Dunno what to say though, I can't imagine how it'd really be any other way.  Armor Jackets forever I guess.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: martinchaen on <04-14-14/1238:26>
Technically, a Lined Coat/Urban Explorer Jumpsuit with the three PPP add-ons gives you 1AV more than an Armor Jacket if you've got the STR for it :)
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-14-14/1244:39>
Technically, a Lined Coat/Urban Explorer Jumpsuit with the three PPP add-ons gives you 1AV more than an Armor Jacket if you've got the STR for it :)

For my 1-STR technomancer, so she's already at her limit wearing a helmet.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: martinchaen on <04-14-14/1248:00>
Hahaha, I'd like to see her put on a military style helmet.

"HELMET TOO HEAVY!" *thunk*
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Mäx on <04-14-14/1339:58>
About three weapons per weapon type isn't so bad.

I'm most of all miffed about the fact that with all books combined, we have a whopping 5 differend hold-outs >:(
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Medicineman on <04-14-14/1344:05>
and NO Morissey Elan  :(

with a sad Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: SlowDeck on <04-14-14/1546:39>
About three weapons per weapon type isn't so bad.

I'm most of all miffed about the fact that with all books combined, we have a whopping 5 differend hold-outs >:(

And of them, it's looking like the best of the bunch is a revolver. And the revolver is in a book Run and Gun ignores.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Namikaze on <04-14-14/1633:16>
Really?  Hold outs are the part that is getting someone's goat?  The old saying is true I suppose: you can't please everyone.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Csjarrat on <04-14-14/1654:52>
Yeah, tbh the hold-out options are nice. an elan would have been good but at least you've got the streetline for MAD detectors.
my biggest gripe with RnG is that most of the guns you'd want to use are way out of avail ratings so you can't start with them. for a lot of people I suspect that means you'll never get to use them at all.
As a GM its ok because at least you can stat the baddies with them, but i do feel a bit miffed with the avail ratings over all i have to say
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <04-14-14/1705:03>
Yeah, tbh the hold-out options are nice. an elan would have been good but at least you've got the streetline for MAD detectors.
my biggest gripe with RnG is that most of the guns you'd want to use are way out of avail ratings so you can't start with them. for a lot of people I suspect that means you'll never get to use them at all.
As a GM its ok because at least you can stat the baddies with them, but i do feel a bit miffed with the avail ratings over all i have to say

Really?  I figure most people go cheap on their first gun (say, get an AK), start the game with the right contact, and then splurge on the Raiden after run #2.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Csjarrat on <04-14-14/1711:45>
Most PBP games don't get past the meet with the Johnson mate, let alone the 2nd run!
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Cronstintein on <04-15-14/1627:33>
That sounds like a pbp problem, not a system problem.  I believe the general expectation is that you will use a character for multiple runs.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Csjarrat on <04-15-14/1644:34>
That sounds like a pbp problem, not a system problem.  I believe the general expectation is that you will use a character for multiple runs.
yeah clearly, i was just expressing my opinion that i'm a bit miffed that i'll probably never get to use them as a player. As GM i'm happy though. Baddies use whatever I want them to use :-)
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: DeathEatsCurry on <04-20-14/1940:12>
The book is great but Im wondering (and this has probably been brought up before) what they were thinking when writing the modification paragraph. Not only are there a lot of unclear things, it's so... Sparse. Comparing it to 4e Arsenal (which isnt nearly as good a book as thos, mind you) Im missing a whole bunch of mods, ranging from the most basic (extended mags, shortened barrels) to the more exotic and cool (ammo choose systems, chameleon coating). Were these kept out for some kind of purpose, since I cant imagine most of them being hard to convert.. Its not really like this would fit in any other book, except maybe under the book containing vehicle mods.

Oh well, least I get to crotch shot people with Gauss slugs.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-20-14/2038:17>
The book is great but Im wondering (and this has probably been brought up before) what they were thinking when writing the modification paragraph. Not only are there a lot of unclear things, it's so... Sparse. Comparing it to 4e Arsenal (which isnt nearly as good a book as thos, mind you) Im missing a whole bunch of mods, ranging from the most basic (extended mags, shortened barrels) to the more exotic and cool (ammo choose systems, chameleon coating). Were these kept out for some kind of purpose, since I cant imagine most of them being hard to convert.. Its not really like this would fit in any other book, except maybe under the book containing vehicle mods.

Oh well, least I get to crotch shot people with Gauss slugs.

It is a little worrying.  What I think happened though, and to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if this is why the book took so long to print, is that there's so many chapters in it that they had to cut back certain things.  Run & Gun isn't huge...  But I think they were still reeling from the shock that is the five-hundred-page beast that is the core book.  The chapters generally make sense...  A quick in-character intro, then weapons, then armor, then tactics, then new actions and martial arts.  The environmental dangers is not always useful, but still good to have.  The entire chapter on explosives though is...  Oddly indulgent.  It goes very indepth on a rather narrow subject.  It wouldn't seem so out of place if the rest of the book didn't seem to restrained.  I assume they had way too much material that people had spent a long time writing, and then probably spent even longer trying to find out what to cut from the book.

That's all a guess though.  I'm hoping later books will include more of those old standby modifications.  Chameleon coating on weapons is a pretty big deal, IMO, so hopefully it comes back.  But unless they make a Run & Gun 2 (not entirely out of the question) I can't see what book it'd be in. 
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Namikaze on <04-21-14/0007:20>
I wouldn't be surprised to see a section in Run Faster just about runner gear.  Chameleon coatings, for instance, aren't restricted just to weapons.  Some of the other items, like extended magazines, are so easily done already they might not have thought that it needed explanation.  1 magazine + 1 magazine = extended magazine.  Double price, +1 concealment.

As for some of the more exotic modifications, I think the explanation there is that in 4th edition, there were A LOT of goodies to play with, many of which probably didn't get used all that often.  So rather than wasting book space with items that people don't use often, they might have opted to spend more time in other areas.

I don't know that I would have spent so much time on demolitions, but that's a decision that's out of my hands.  And to be honest, demolitions really can only go in a book about making things go boom.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-21-14/0012:11>
Most of the mod chapter got used a lot, though.  Getting rid of the stuff that was used and useful along with the stuff that wasn't wouldn't make a great deal of sense.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: SlowDeck on <04-21-14/0014:38>
I don't know that I would have spent so much time on demolitions, but that's a decision that's out of my hands.  And to be honest, demolitions really can only go in a book about making things go boom.

Add that on to my earlier comment about space being best in a space book and my current thinking martial arts may need to be expanded more to clarify some things... and, really, there's a lot that got crammed in that really would have been best with their own books.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-21-14/0016:08>
I don't know that I would have spent so much time on demolitions, but that's a decision that's out of my hands.  And to be honest, demolitions really can only go in a book about making things go boom.

Add that on to my earlier comment about space being best in a space book and my current thinking martial arts may need to be expanded more to clarify some things... and, really, there's a lot that got crammed in that really would have been best with their own books.

Except that that stuff doesn't really justify its own book - and while a space PDF might be interesting, it would be a bit niche (though an extreme environments book could be a good thing).
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Namikaze on <04-21-14/0021:10>
Well there was a book for 4th edition that was exclusively about extreme environments called Hazard Pay.  Based on what I've gathered from talking with people online about their games, almost none of the people I spoke with ever used it for anything other than fluff.

So I'd be surprised if we saw another similar write-up.  Though, it would make an excellent PDF piece like Assassin's Primer and Coyotes.  Hell, it could be written by Orbital DK and just talk about the Zurich station.  I don't think anyone knows anything about what's really going on up there, or what the station is capable of.  In Storm Front we got a little taste of the station's capabilities as far as weapons and such - but that was it.

In any event - it's good to see the extreme environment stuff somewhere, even if it doesn't get as in-depth a treatment as it did in 4th edition.  I still would reserve judgement until Run Faster comes out though, as it's likely to do more than just introduce variant rules.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: SlowDeck on <04-21-14/0024:21>
I don't know that I would have spent so much time on demolitions, but that's a decision that's out of my hands.  And to be honest, demolitions really can only go in a book about making things go boom.

Add that on to my earlier comment about space being best in a space book and my current thinking martial arts may need to be expanded more to clarify some things... and, really, there's a lot that got crammed in that really would have been best with their own books.

Except that that stuff doesn't really justify its own book - and while a space PDF might be interesting, it would be a bit niche (though an extreme environments book could be a good thing).

Even just an extreme environments book would be better. Mainly because there's a lot of question about space, including Mars, that need to be answered before that equipment can really be useful. And a lot more about the 6th-world ocean. And having all of that information in a single place really is almost necessary for usability; having to track down whether a suit from Run and Gun would work on Mars through what might become four different books would be extremely time consuming and a hindrance to running anything off Earth. Which means some of the plothooks introduced in Storm Front are, essentially, potentially useless.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-21-14/0034:07>
Space is out for a lot of Shadowrun games anyways, though, because of the way it boxes out the Awakened - you pretty much need a no-magic game to make that work.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Mäx on <04-22-14/1147:03>
Run & Gun isn't huge...

It's not huge, but it is a litllebit bigger then Arsenal, witch makes the it quite wierd that it has a lot less usable content then Arsenal did.


Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-22-14/1316:02>
The gear layout in Arsenal was pretty efficient IMO and easy to read.  The gear layout in Run and Gun?  Not so much unfortunately.   :(
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: bull30548 on <04-23-14/2318:15>
So  here is a GM related question where  in run and gun do they address the armor stack issue?  My players are having a fit about the fact that the classic form fitting armor which has been an armor piece in their arsenal since, in some cases, Shadowrun began introducing it.  I honestly do not have a reasonable explanation for why that for example the player couldn't wear a bulletproof concealed vest (or half shirt in the case of formfitting) and an armor jacket and the two armors bonuses do not stack.  Now I am grounded in some reality realizing they couldn't or shouldn't try form fitting with military grade armor and say a long coat and expect all three to stack or even be compatible with one another but my first example is kind of hard to explain.  Any advice or perhaps a page number i can reference to address this since they make a legitimate argument?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: SlowDeck on <04-23-14/2328:18>
Armor and Encumbrance, page 169 of the main rulebook.

I'm checking to see if Run and Gun has any alternative rules.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Medicineman on <04-24-14/0349:13>
 
Quote
Any advice or perhaps a page number i can reference to address this since they make a legitimate argument?

Houserule it !!
FF T-Shirt +1
FF 1/2Body +2
and FF Fullbody +3 (without cap &gloves) or +4 (with cap and gloves)
pretty easy ImO

with an easy Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Namikaze on <04-24-14/0414:49>
I honestly do not have a reasonable explanation for why that for example the player couldn't wear a bulletproof concealed vest (or half shirt in the case of formfitting) and an armor jacket and the two armors bonuses do not stack.

It's because the item only gives you the benefit of the best equipment.  Sure, you could run around with ceramic plates AND a Kevlar vest, but you wouldn't really be doing anything more than simply making it harder to walk.

The relevant section of the main book is thus:

Quote
If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, the value of the highest armor piece applies for determining Armor. All the other pieces do nothing but add a lot of bulk; too much can make Joe Shadowrunner look like the SoyPuff Marshmallow Man, slowing him down more than the protection is worth.

So basically the devs are saying that there could be rules for adding more armor, but then there'd have to be more rules for Encumbrance, which has always been a pain for bookkeeping.  If you want to do the bookkeeping, just do like the old system did and treat one half of the second-highest armor as a bonus.  Then use that bonus with the current Encumbrance rules.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: frankhlane on <04-30-14/0707:46>
Hey guys, I really like SR5.  I'm a huge supporter.  Please let us help you proofread books in the future by releasing the whole book as a beta product before you release the full version.

I know you think nobody will buy it if it's released in total before the full version is released.  You are wrong, we give you our money because we love shadowrun.  If you let us proofread books, you can crowd source corrections that will prevent books from being released with a ton of problems like Run and Gun.

I'm sorry because at first glance I wanted to love this book.  I'm out there every day defending SR5, telling people it rocks and I love it.  However, between me and you, you gotta let your fans help you out on these products because there's a ton of things in them that are all fucked up.  It's so close too.  SR5 is close to being my favorite edition of Shadowrun and I'm an old fucking tryhard who's been pushing shadowrun since D&D was "Advanced".  However, I can't stand behind a "release quality" product that isn't release quality, not in the core book of SR5 and not in Run and Gun.  If this is the combat book for Shadowrun 5, I need you to repair it so that I can take pride in showing it to people who I'm telling to love Shadowrun as much as I do.

Please.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Critias on <04-30-14/0906:34>
The problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, FWIW. 
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Csjarrat on <04-30-14/0912:17>
The problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, FWIW.
Then they either need to actually start using proofreaders or use better ones because some of the errors show a glaring lack of editing and proofing.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: jim1701 on <04-30-14/1016:44>
The problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, FWIW.
Then they either need to actually start using proofreaders or use better ones because some of the errors show a glaring lack of editing and proofing.

Magic Eight Ball says: Signs point to yes.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-30-14/1430:47>
The problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, FWIW.
Then they either need to actually start using proofreaders or use better ones because some of the errors show a glaring lack of editing and proofing.
I don't think the quality of the proofreaders is the problem either. Some of the biggest issues with R&G and SR5 Core appear to me to be version changes and mistakes everyone easily misses.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Namikaze on <04-30-14/1525:38>
Someone mentioned this in a different thread a while back, but it still holds true.  There are certain terms that we should have defined, along with the mechanics that follow the terms.  For example, what does a Direct Neural Interface do?  Make it do that all the time.  It's partly because of inconsistency with terminology that we have see problems with editing.  At least, that's my opinion.  A glossary of Shadowrun terms would be handy, even if it's a giant undertaking to accomplish.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: frankhlane on <04-30-14/2116:52>
The problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, FWIW.

This might seem a little bit harsh, but if it isn't a shortage of manpower it's a shortage of quality work.

There is a reason why proofreaders work in certain ways, it's because of the "can't see the forest for the trees" effect that authors get.  It's really hard to proofread your own writing because your brain just overlooks stuff it "knows" to be fine.

If you're telling me that the authors were not in charge of proofreading their own work and that an entire team that did not take part in the writing allowed SR5 and R&G to be released in the state that they have been released, something is going fucking wrong over there that we are begging you to let us help you fix for free.

Do not get me wrong.  I love SR5.  I think R&G has a ton of great ideas and is like all of the ingredients of a delicious cake that were poured into a good looking frosting shell and then baked for 7/10th the required time.  Then, when the hungry fans cut into the mostly-baked mess and go "what the fuck this isn't finished yet" it is really really hard for said fans to tell their friends "SR5 is awesome, I love it, buy the book right now".  Instead, we have to make excuses like "SR5 is going to be awesome, I really like where it's going and hopefully most of the stuff that's wrong will get sorted out."

Now the problem is that as I'm sitting here, I've heard no news about SR5 getting re-released with the updates in it (which really change certain core rules quite a bit).  And woe to the poor fuckers who bought the physical SR5, they're hosed forever unless you're sending them free new books.  "Oh, we made a bunch of typos" is totally acceptable for errata.  "Oh, everyone pointed out that this set of recoil rules doesn't work as intended so we changed them" is a problem with releasing a product before it is finished.

Now take the fact that R&G introduces a TON of complex new shit and NONE of the complex new shit is actually finished and we have a big fucking mess on our hands, chummers, that COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED if you had released the full text of R&G to the fans here on the forums for proofreading.  We would have LOVED to save you the embarrassment and the discredit of releasing a book that's all fucked up.  We love Shadowrun, we want to do everything in our power to make it the best it can possibly be.

Please, for fuck's sake, let us help you.

If you honestly believe that nobody would buy the books if you released the beta first, you are straight up motherfucking wrong and being wrong in this instance is fucking up Shadowrun.  As it stands everyone is stealing the pdfs all over the internet anyway, so stand the fuck up, ask for the help that you need from the fans who want to help you, and release an acceptable product.  We've loved Shadowrun for a long, long time.  We want you to do it justice.  Stop being pigheaded, it's 2014, crowdsource the shit you need to crowdsource.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <04-30-14/2122:07>
Someone mentioned this in a different thread a while back, but it still holds true.  There are certain terms that we should have defined, along with the mechanics that follow the terms.  For example, what does a Direct Neural Interface do?  Make it do that all the time.  It's partly because of inconsistency with terminology that we have see problems with editing.  At least, that's my opinion.  A glossary of Shadowrun terms would be handy, even if it's a giant undertaking to accomplish.

Something like that would solve a plethora of problems.  Quite big ones too, like 4th edition's rules about hacking cyberware and the importance of "is your connection to cyberware a DNI, or just a plain 'neural interface' that isn't like having a datajack?"  It would be a lot of work but, jeeze.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: SlowDeck on <04-30-14/2142:32>
Frankhlane, elsewhere on this site is a topic (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16107.0) with an email in it you can use to apply. If you really feel you can improve the product, send them an email about working for them.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: frankhlane on <04-30-14/2148:58>
Frankhlane, elsewhere on this site is a topic (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16107.0) with an email in it you can use to apply. If you really feel you can improve the product, send them an email about working for them.

I may, but that totally discounts what I'm saying.  I'm not saying one more person being paid to do some task is going to help.  I'm saying that it's the year 2014, seemingly every game product gets put through public betas these days.  Shadowrun needs to be one of them, so that all of the issues that all of us (I'm not even close to claiming it's just me or that I am somehow different and better than the other people here are) keep pointing out can be found and fixed before release.

That is the core of what I (and others here) are begging catalyst to consider.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: SlowDeck on <04-30-14/2156:40>
I'm one of the people who keeps pointing them out. I also used that email address. It probably won't get me accepted (though, I would do the work for free).

My point wasn't to discount what you were saying. It was to say that this is another avenue you can try. But, my thought process is to try all avenues on something I care about.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-30-14/2208:51>
I know you think nobody will buy it if it's released in total before the full version is released.  You are wrong, we give you our money because we love shadowrun.

It must be nice to be able to afford to pay for something simply out of love for the product; you should probably check your privilege before rushing to assume the same is true of everyone.

A more practical form of this suggestion might be a private beta for people preordering the product.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: frankhlane on <04-30-14/2223:38>
I'm one of the people who keeps pointing them out. I also used that email address. It probably won't get me accepted (though, I would do the work for free).

My point wasn't to discount what you were saying. It was to say that this is another avenue you can try. But, my thought process is to try all avenues on something I care about.

Good call and well reasoned.


It must be nice to be able to afford to pay for something simply out of love for the product; you should probably check your privilege before rushing to assume the same is true of everyone.  A more practical form of this suggestion might be a private beta for people preordering the product.

10/10 bait, friend.  Never mind that lowering the size of the crowd you source will lower the effectiveness of the solution and you didn't address the fact that in your example all those people are stealing the product anyway because it's available on the entire internet everywhere of course, because you were just posting to bait some mad out of people who are earnestly trying to help make the product better.  Ten out of a glorious ten.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-30-14/2307:14>

It must be nice to be able to afford to pay for something simply out of love for the product; you should probably check your privilege before rushing to assume the same is true of everyone.  A more practical form of this suggestion might be a private beta for people preordering the product.

10/10 bait, friend.  Never mind that lowering the size of the crowd you source will lower the effectiveness of the solution and you didn't address the fact that in your example all those people are stealing the product anyway because it's available on the entire internet everywhere of course, because you were just posting to bait some mad out of people who are earnestly trying to help make the product better.  Ten out of a glorious ten.

That was not "bait" of any sort - that was the most polite way I could think of to phrase something that needed to be said.

Piracy doesn't go away, sure.  But there are a lot of people who want to legitimately acquire the product, but cannot afford to pay for that which they can legitimately get for free.  That's just a fact.

And this is all, of course, setting aside the fact that the text we got contains errors which were, apparently, caught.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: frankhlane on <04-30-14/2310:00>
That was not "bait" of any sort

Utter hogwash.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: RHat on <04-30-14/2321:11>
That was not "bait" of any sort

Utter hogwash.

I am attempting, as I always do, to argue in good faith here.  You can feel free to respond in kind, and you can feel free to not respond at all.  I would suggest that you limit yourself to one of those two options, rather than pulling this conversation into a direction which violates the ToS.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Critias on <04-30-14/2327:54>
The problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, FWIW.

This might seem a little bit harsh, but if it isn't a shortage of manpower it's a shortage of quality work.
Your rant is completely unnecessary and, inasmuch as it's aimed at me, misguided.  You aren't saying anything I haven't read, and -- for the most part -- said before myself.  I'm just trying to make it clear, the problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: frankhlane on <05-01-14/0017:54>
The problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, FWIW.

This might seem a little bit harsh, but if it isn't a shortage of manpower it's a shortage of quality work.
Your rant is completely unnecessary and, inasmuch as it's aimed at me, misguided.  You aren't saying anything I haven't read, and -- for the most part -- said before myself.  I'm just trying to make it clear, the problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders.

What what the point of posting this?  If the problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, then my "rant" addresses what the problem may be and offers a solution.  If the problem is a shortage of proofreaders, I've offered a solution.  Either way, it seems like you're offended because you agree with me but don't like the way I said it, which is indicative of that battered-fan-syndrome reaction people have when they know they are getting screwed by a company that they want to love and someone points it out.

I'm not the enemy here.  If you've said all of these points before, then band together with me and keep saying them and maybe we'll see some change.  If speaking clearly and strongly about things isn't your style, then lend your support in the manner that you agree most with and feel free to criticize the way I'm speaking without throwing a message that you seem into agree with out with the bathwater because you don't like the way it was phrased.

Catalyst are both adults and business people.  If you are worried that they may backlash on pleas for quality that are phrased strongly, then you are worried that they are fucking children who would crash the car rather than take driving instructions while we're fucking lost in the woods.  I think better of them than that, at least at this point.  Hopefully most of us do.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Critias on <05-01-14/0029:55>
I think we've got a wire or two crossed.  I'm not a battered fan of Shadowrun, I'm a writer for them.  When I'm telling you that a lack of proofreaders isn't the problem, please believe me when I say that.  I've seen the number of proofreaders we have.  I've been a proofreader on some products in the past.  I've seen and produced proofing notes, editing notes, and playtesting notes aplenty, for SR5 and other products.  Proofreading is happening, and quite a lot of it.  I can't go into details, partially because basic professionalism doesn't let me, and partially because backstage discussions are under NDA, but the suggestions you're making?  They're not new suggestions.  The concerns you have?  They're not new concerns.  It isn't that my "style" isn't to speak strongly and clearly -- speaking strongly and clearly is, in fact, how I make my living in not one, but two, jobs right now -- it's that there are limits to how strong and clear I can be (for legal reasons), and there are limits as to how strong and clear I want to be (because it's all things I've said before, over and over again).

That said?  I'm not trying to silence you.  I'm not trying to throw my imaginary weight around, I'm not trying to bully you, I'm not trying to browbeat you.  I'm trying to save you some energy and enthusiasm.  I'm trying to explain to you that it's arguments the Powers That Be have heard before and that they have then, for various reasons that it's not my place to go into, they have acted on, or not acted on, these arguments in their own way. 

Everyone is well aware that editing and quality control are ongoing issues (or you wouldn't see us freelancers scouring errata threads and compiling errata documents, on our own time and of our own volition, or posting our own personal errata documents on Google drives, or clarifying with our own errata forum posts when we can).  I understand and appreciate your passion and concern, but please be aware that you're not saying anything we haven't all heard, and (again) often said, ourselves.

While I find your posting style abrasive, that's not why I'm responding to you.  I'm just saying, the problem -- as clearly and politely as I can put it to you -- is not a lack of proofreaders.  So suggesting more proofreaders, much less suggesting full public beta tests, is not going to solve the problem, and is also not a suggestion that hasn't been made in the past. 
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: martinchaen on <05-01-14/0710:19>
First of all, thanks for elaborating Critias; your continued participation on these forums is greatly appreciated.

Second of all, who here, by show of virtual hands, have had an insurmountable obstacle during one of their games with the SR5 rules, that a simple discussion between reasonable adults didn't resolve?

...

I would go so far as to say that if you raised your hand, the problem is not the rules, but you or your players.

Yes, "more better" consistency would be nice. Yes, a glossary of terminology would be awesome. Sure, I'd take more balanced gear and more variety and just plain "more" Shadowrun any day of the week. Does that stop me from enjoying the game without resorting to the kind of rants some of the discussions on this forum devolves into, mostly because of Devil's Advocate and/or Rules Lawyering at it's worst? No, absolutely not.

The SR5 rulebook is 489 pages long. My table's Houserules and Interpretations document (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18kgI86Mqa8WFhIWlB2NEFDVjQ/edit?usp=sharing) consists of 9 items that are rules interpretations (as we see it), and 5 House/Table Rules.

My point being; the level of hyperbole in this thread, and in many of the rules discussions on this forum, is of epic proportions. Does the rules have some issues? Yes, undoubtedly. Are they game breaking? Not even close.

/rant


@Critias
Since proofreaders aren't needed, and since a lot of us do have a burning passions (no, not that kind of burning ;) ) for Shadowrun, is there anything else we can do to help beyond posting in the errata and Q&A threads? I've been a beta/Q&A tester of one or two video games in the past, and in my current line of work we do some Q&A work for products for the oilfield, and we use Issue Trackers; I think it would be really cool if we had a way to post errata requests in an issue tracker instead of on a forum where people can (and often do) derail the thread, ending up with 70+ page threads.

It would also allow you, the freelancers, or the devs directly to more efficiently respond to individual questions ("an answer a day keeps the forum trolls away!"), and it would certainly from my point of view give Catalyst Game Labs a much more "public" profile where interacting with fans are concerned.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Ursus Maior on <05-01-14/0807:02>
Thought it was somewhere around that time zone. I was stationed in Kitzingen, Germany and that was about the length of my flights back home (emergency landings for not having enough fuel or engines catching on fire not withstanding!).

Cool, Kitzingen. I was in Schwarzenborn (close to Kassel) and later lived in Würzburg for a while. Most of you folks are all gone, what a pity.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: frankhlane on <05-01-14/1841:40>
Welp the unpopular opinion is getting censored, all is lost.

Good luck with maintaining the sanctity of your fucking echo chamber.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: tasti man LH on <05-01-14/1853:30>
...ok, do Shadowrun fans not understand the concept of "Voting with your wallet"?

People, if you disagree with the direction that a company is taking their product line, and you feel like you're talking to a brick wall while trying to deliver your criticisms, then don't buy their stuff!

This is not a brand new concept, people! I mean  we already have clear proof of D&D fans leaving in droves from 4th edition to Pathfinder...and oh hey look, D&DNext is trying to go back to mechanics reminiscent of AD&D to appeal to older fans! Gee, I wonder what happened to create that turnaround?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Tenlaar on <05-01-14/1854:05>
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37644686.jpg)
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-01-14/1858:32>
...ok, do Shadowrun fans not understand the concept of "Voting with your wallet"?

People, if you disagree with the direction that a company is taking their product line, and you feel like you're talking to a brick wall while trying to deliver your criticisms, then don't buy their stuff!

This is not a brand new concept, people! I mean  we already have clear proof of D&D fans leaving in droves from 4th edition to Pathfinder...and oh hey look, D&DNext is trying to go back to mechanics reminiscent of AD&D to appeal to older fans! Gee, I wonder what happened to create that turnaround?
In all fairness, I kinda liked D&D 4e, but what pissed me off is that rather than admitting they screwed up adjusting to the playtesting results and then forgetting to test that and providing a quick rule-of-thumb errata, they instead made a D&D 4.25 instead, which was not compatible. And then they decided to make their chargen a full subscription-only thing. Oh, and I made an account to try to get their fancy thing, but then it turned out that required creditcards due to subscription fees, and then it was impossible to delete the account again... That was pretty much the point where I decided to never buy a Wizards product again.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: CanRay on <05-01-14/1906:38>
Welp the unpopular opinion is getting censored, all is lost.
You use that word.  I don't think it means what you think it means. (http://youtu.be/8UY2uw3yoIA?t=4m14s)
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-01-14/1909:11>
...ok, do Shadowrun fans not understand the concept of "Voting with your wallet"?

People, if you disagree with the direction that a company is taking their product line, and you feel like you're talking to a brick wall while trying to deliver your criticisms, then don't buy their stuff!

This is not a brand new concept, people! I mean  we already have clear proof of D&D fans leaving in droves from 4th edition to Pathfinder...and oh hey look, D&DNext is trying to go back to mechanics reminiscent of AD&D to appeal to older fans! Gee, I wonder what happened to create that turnaround?
In all fairness, I kinda liked D&D 4e, but what pissed me off is that rather than admitting they screwed up adjusting to the playtesting results and then forgetting to test that and providing a quick rule-of-thumb errata, they instead made a D&D 4.25 instead, which was not compatible. And then they decided to make their chargen a full subscription-only thing. Oh, and I made an account to try to get their fancy thing, but then it turned out that required creditcards due to subscription fees, and then it was impossible to delete the account again... That was pretty much the point where I decided to never buy a Wizards product again.

They're taking 5E in a similar direction on the electronic front. If anything, it seems they're trying to set it up to tie 5E even more with the subscription service. So I wouldn't even bother wasting my money on physical books for playing anything new in DnD. The PDFs are cheaper and don't clutter up the computer desk.

I do vote with my wallet. And despite the quality issues with the rules as written, this is still a higher-quality game than a lot of what's out there. That's why I may grumble... but I still am looking at the next product. Which reminds me... I finally got to one product and have a review to do.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Critias on <05-01-14/2036:07>
Welp the unpopular opinion is getting censored, all is lost.

Good luck with maintaining the sanctity of your fucking echo chamber.
Yours weren't the only posts that were deleted, relax.  My assumption is that we got heated enough the mods figured they'd rather stop that conversation.

And -- again, as clearly as I can state it -- it's not that your opinion isn't unpopular, it's that it's an opinion that's been shared before.  You're not being "censored" because you're saying anything groundbreaking and new, or disrupting an "echo chamber."  You are echoing.  And you're doing so in a terribly abrasive manner that is, yes, likely to bring down moderator attention. 
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Namikaze on <05-01-14/2131:02>
I'll own it.  I can't be sure if I'm the only one who did so, but I reported your posts, Frank.  I'm not in any way affiliated with CGL, I'm not trying to curry favor from them, and there is no conspiracy to censor you or your opinions.  Quite the opposite in fact.  I personally believe that everyone should be allowed to state their opinions.  But when you start to drop F-bombs every third word, and you start to insult the folks that you claim to support...  that's where I think you've crossed the line.  You violated the terms of service that we all agree to when we register on these forums, one of the terms is to respect the other people on the forums.

The only reason Critias responded to you was because you were making accusations that deserved a reply.  When you got that reply, you then went off on him in a very personal and insulting fashion.  I cannot in good faith abide that kind of behavior, so I reported the posts.

In case you are unclear on the terms of service, please consult this thread (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12).  Please note that I have violated these terms twice, and been reprimanded harshly on both occasions.  This is why I'm so adamant about the application of these rules.  If they aren't applied fairly, then they cease to have power.  And quite simply, these rules are common sense and totally reasonable.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Dinendae on <05-01-14/2200:54>

In all fairness, I kinda liked D&D 4e, but what pissed me off is that rather than admitting they screwed up adjusting to the playtesting results and then forgetting to test that and providing a quick rule-of-thumb errata, they instead made a D&D 4.25 instead, which was not compatible.

That's a mistake WotC seems to keep making, in one form or another. They lost Monte Cook and their number 2 designer (can't remember his name) back in the D20/3.0 days when he told them it was too soon to push out a new edition, and that they should just put out a 3.5 sourcebook with the necessary changes and then wait a few years before making a new edition. His primary argument being that unlike Magic, D&D players would object to having a new edition so early. Their reply was along the lines of "Screw you, it's a slow sales month so we're doing this!" He walked out and went elsewhere. That he left their new project so soon after coming back to work with them is not inspiring me with confidence.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: FastJack on <05-01-14/2230:11>
Welp the unpopular opinion is getting censored, all is lost.

Good luck with maintaining the sanctity of your fucking echo chamber.
Just for fun, I'm going to leave this here. As a warning. This is NOT a democracy. This is NOT a representative authority. This board is for one purpose only: To bring together fans of the game and discuss the game and other facets that warrant discussion. Your post was "censored" because of the harsh language and personal attack on another poster. Yes, I know, you feel that it wasn't a personal attack because it was just two people disagreeing. However, we do have RULES here on the boards and one of the biggest rules boils down to these four words: "DON"T BE A DICK'. You can disagree with someone all you want, have interesting discussions going back and forth on the merits and flaws in each other's viewpoints without saying the people producing this game we all love "f*cking sucks at their jobs".

THIS IS NOT DUMPSHOCK.

We support the creative team here, even if we may complain a bit and beg for a bit more. If you feel that the game could be done better, go ahead and start a Kickstarter. Otherwise, sit down, shut up, and play nice.

And this is your 2nd Official Warning frankhlane. Normally we don't do public warnings like this, but your original posts and your PM response to me regarding your 1st Warning indicates that you're on the fast track to getting banned around here.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: CanRay on <05-01-14/2246:10>
So, how is the Sybil thing going, FastJack?

...  Oh, right, wrong FastJack.  ;D

Now, if only I could find a group willing to GM SR5 for me so that I can Gun Bunny it up nicely.  ;)  (Finally got a SR4A GM.  See what happens with that campaign.).
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-02-14/0436:30>
And -- again, as clearly as I can state it -- it's not that your opinion isn't unpopular, it's that it's an opinion that's been shared before.
Correct. I share some of his grievances and can't say I've been quiet about it, though trying to remain diplomatic and point out that there's a lot of good still there. I do not blame any of the proofreaders or writers for it, though, and am grateful that some take their time to help clarify what they can.

I would, however, suggest that a ctrl+f for smartlink and smartgun is added to a mandatory proofreader checklist. ^_^
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Namikaze on <05-02-14/0611:24>
I wonder if there isn't some way for us, as a community, to build a glossary of common terms?  If we could then submit it for approval to someone official, it would be a really useful asset.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: firebug on <05-02-14/0648:02>
Starting a thread to try and make one would be the first step either way.  I'd be willing to help with that, as would many others I'm sure.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Chance on <05-02-14/1907:18>
On a completely unrelated topic, the demolitions mod for allowing a break to reset your skill pool for extended tests. Do you suppose this is coming down the pipes for other skills using extended tests?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: samoth on <05-05-14/0819:06>
I'll own it.  I can't be sure if I'm the only one who did so, but I reported your posts, Frank.  I'm not in any way affiliated with CGL, I'm not trying to curry favor from them, and there is no conspiracy to censor you or your opinions.  Quite the opposite in fact.  I personally believe that everyone should be allowed to state their opinions.  But when you start to drop F-bombs every third word, and you start to insult the folks that you claim to support...  that's where I think you've crossed the line.  You violated the terms of service that we all agree to when we register on these forums, one of the terms is to respect the other people on the forums.

The only reason Critias responded to you was because you were making accusations that deserved a reply.  When you got that reply, you then went off on him in a very personal and insulting fashion.  I cannot in good faith abide that kind of behavior, so I reported the posts.

In case you are unclear on the terms of service, please consult this thread (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12).  Please note that I have violated these terms twice, and been reprimanded harshly on both occasions.  This is why I'm so adamant about the application of these rules.  If they aren't applied fairly, then they cease to have power.  And quite simply, these rules are common sense and totally reasonable.

If you want to be a forums mod I'm sure you can ask for it instead of posting something like this.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Kincaid on <05-05-14/0841:52>
I'll own it.  I can't be sure if I'm the only one who did so, but I reported your posts, Frank.  I'm not in any way affiliated with CGL, I'm not trying to curry favor from them, and there is no conspiracy to censor you or your opinions.  Quite the opposite in fact.  I personally believe that everyone should be allowed to state their opinions.  But when you start to drop F-bombs every third word, and you start to insult the folks that you claim to support...  that's where I think you've crossed the line.  You violated the terms of service that we all agree to when we register on these forums, one of the terms is to respect the other people on the forums.

The only reason Critias responded to you was because you were making accusations that deserved a reply.  When you got that reply, you then went off on him in a very personal and insulting fashion.  I cannot in good faith abide that kind of behavior, so I reported the posts.

In case you are unclear on the terms of service, please consult this thread (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12).  Please note that I have violated these terms twice, and been reprimanded harshly on both occasions.  This is why I'm so adamant about the application of these rules.  If they aren't applied fairly, then they cease to have power.  And quite simply, these rules are common sense and totally reasonable.

If you want to be a forums mod I'm sure you can ask for it instead of posting something like this.

People other than mods are invested in keeping this a reasonably civil place.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Namikaze on <05-05-14/1050:12>
I posted that because I didn't want anyone to think that there was a conspiracy to shut down vocal critics of Catalyst.  I wanted to ensure that if Frank was going to rage on someone, it was the correct target.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: FastJack on <05-05-14/1426:46>
I'll own it.  I can't be sure if I'm the only one who did so, but I reported your posts, Frank.  I'm not in any way affiliated with CGL, I'm not trying to curry favor from them, and there is no conspiracy to censor you or your opinions.  Quite the opposite in fact.  I personally believe that everyone should be allowed to state their opinions.  But when you start to drop F-bombs every third word, and you start to insult the folks that you claim to support...  that's where I think you've crossed the line.  You violated the terms of service that we all agree to when we register on these forums, one of the terms is to respect the other people on the forums.

The only reason Critias responded to you was because you were making accusations that deserved a reply.  When you got that reply, you then went off on him in a very personal and insulting fashion.  I cannot in good faith abide that kind of behavior, so I reported the posts.

In case you are unclear on the terms of service, please consult this thread (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12).  Please note that I have violated these terms twice, and been reprimanded harshly on both occasions.  This is why I'm so adamant about the application of these rules.  If they aren't applied fairly, then they cease to have power.  And quite simply, these rules are common sense and totally reasonable.

If you want to be a forums mod I'm sure you can ask for it instead of posting something like this.
A big part of moderation on this (and, frankly, ANY board) is the Report feature. It's anonymous so people don't get bullied for whistle-blowing. Which is exactly what you just did there, samoth. And Namikaze was not the ONLY one to report on frank. So, before you go start inserting your foot in your mouth, consider the courage it takes to come out and say that he did what he did and why.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: fenrir4life on <05-18-14/0018:39>
So.  Knucklebreaker.  Awesome technique, just one problem: no styles actually have it for the melee disarm.  Now, that said, if the function gets bundled into Called Shot: Disarm, then both Maverick and Eliot Spencer would pay 5 karma for the option to headbutt a man and take his gun.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Shamie on <06-06-14/1846:22>
So.  Knucklebreaker.  Awesome technique, just one problem: no styles actually have it for the melee disarm.  Now, that said, if the function gets bundled into Called Shot: Disarm, then both Maverick and Eliot Spencer would pay 5 karma for the option to headbutt a man and take his gun.  Thoughts?

Sorry i don't get what you saying  :-[

Are you saying that no style can use this technique to disarm a person who is holding a melee weapon?

Or

Are you saying that no style can use this technique with a melee weapon to disarm someone?
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-06-14/1943:23>
That's what we got One Trick Pony for.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: Novocrane on <06-06-14/2140:14>
That's what we got One Trick Pony for.
Also Edge use.
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-07-14/1506:22>
I wonder if there isn't some way for us, as a community, to build a glossary of common terms?  If we could then submit it for approval to someone official, it would be a really useful asset.

I remember being pretty vociferous way back at the start of 3rd Edition about the need in ANY modern RPG for establishing early on a Glossary of Defined Terms.

I would support such an effort.


-k
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: PeterSmith on <06-10-14/1643:51>
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16899.msg299163#msg299163
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: KraakenDazs on <07-11-14/0327:09>
Everyone is well aware that editing and quality control are ongoing issues (or you wouldn't see us freelancers scouring errata threads and compiling errata documents, on our own time and of our own volition, or posting our own personal errata documents on Google drives, or clarifying with our own errata forum posts when we can).  I understand and appreciate your passion and concern, but please be aware that you're not saying anything we haven't all heard, and (again) often said, ourselves.

First of all and slightly unrelated, Critias, that post of yours i quoted from was for me a very refreshing one. I truly understand the needs and limitations of NDAs (been under a few myself in the past), and i also understand the (usual) silence on boards from devs and creators in business-related ventures. I did truly appreciate however reading your post, as limited by judicial imperatives as it was. I often remarked myself about the lack of cohesiveness and the widespread confusion in the latest SR products, and i've even brought my group back to 4e rulings on the fact that i refuse to pay for what i consider ''broken'' systems . Incomplete, not-as-great-as-i-wished it-it-but-not-requiring-extensive-erratas-over-erratas, sure. I'll dish out money for it, because i get what i pay for. Working systems. Which i sadly do not feel 5e is...yet. Still, being told *what can be said* is a sure way to ease many of our restless minds (aka the minds of us ''whiner babies''. Ill own up to it ;) )

Should they be fixed properly, ill very likely return to supporting CGL monetarily, and buy more products (SR5 core is actually the one RPGbook i've EVER purchased on release day,and i was awaiting it eagerly weeks prior)  because they work hard, i am sure of it, and i respect their endeavors.  I also understand their current conundrum. Fix the old, while still remaining ahead and pushing forward the new. There's just no pleasing everyone and i don't envy the situation, but i encourage them to keep at it and when everything is a bit more fleshed out, i truly hope everything settles and works. I'm really, really hoping for SR5 to become the definitive ''Its the essence of Shadowrun that's back AND the rules work great!'' edition (4e doesnt have cyberdecks. FOR SHAME) .That essence of SR is something CGL has done wonderfully however, and i give them MAJOR props.

That being said, the main topic i wanted to breach is about this last part i quoted. Is there any post dedicated to listing those homemade erratas, or ''unnofficial-but-strongly-RAI-based'' houserules? If not, this could be a great thread to open up, and it might even make me revisit SR5 in a nearer-than-anticipated future. I've looked around and i've yet to see a decent, condensed post about it. Rather it's all spread out over Rules and Such and HouseRules and infuriating to make sense of. And ive not the patience or the recently released books to make sense of the earlier mentionned broken rules (ive heard Grenades can be interrupted now, im very glad! ...but it still leaves the core rulebook broken. So its either A) Fix the main core psd, or B) Wait till every ''core'' supplements are out to figure out if i feel 5th ed  is ''complete and workable'' from condensed opinions to see if i purchase them)

(With that said however, i fear im intruding in a thread not specifically linked to this subject, but im unsure where to move it to, and it was ''sort of'' linked to this thread. If this diverts too much attention from Run and Gun, i apologize and will move it/erase/make a new post as demanded!)
Title: Re: Run & Gun is Live!
Post by: KraakenDazs on <07-11-14/0418:59>
Well, i dug up and found part of my answer in Michael Chandra's signature :P

Im sad the controversial matters and possible houserules arent as detailed/listed as the easilymissed rules and mistakes but it gives me a solid basis to compile the current houserules on the subjects,

Leaving the comment up in case anyone would suggest any other comprehensive list and because it does express my opinion of the current books (Run and Gun included judging by the size of the errata board). Unless if following frank's...empassionated comments... i end up infuriating people unwillingly. If so ill gladly erase it myself, as it was not my intention in the slightest.