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Imagine: Shadowrun Mimics

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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #45 on: <08-09-18/0010:55> »
My issue with Technomancers is that they even exist.

But i'm stuck with them now.

I can get behind that.

All they need is a Sprite / Complex Form that gives them increased initiative and / or initiative dice, and they can start poaching from all the other archetypes too.  While they don't poach Magic exactly, they do their own thing that is just like it.

They really do kill "design space," to use a game design term.

Marcus

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« Reply #46 on: <08-09-18/0011:09> »
Well at-least you have accepted it Reaver, it's the first step to getting over it!
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Reaver

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« Reply #47 on: <08-09-18/0033:03> »
Well at-least you have accepted it Reaver, it's the first step to getting over it!

I'm on Step 13 of the 12 step recovery program.

Step 12 was acceptance of what you can not change. I accept that Technos are here to stay.


Step 13: Drink until the pain of step 12 goes away....   
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Marcus

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« Reply #48 on: <08-09-18/0039:19> »
Well at-least you have accepted it Reaver, it's the first step to getting over it!

I'm on Step 13 of the 12 step recovery program.

Step 12 was acceptance of what you can not change. I accept that Technos are here to stay.


Step 13: Drink until the pain of step 12 goes away....

Was step 3-11 drink until you accept the problem?
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Reaver

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« Reply #49 on: <08-09-18/0044:30> »
Crying. I remember there was crying.

And "throw tantrum"....

I just can't remember where "Curl up into a ball and suck your thumb" fell in there.... At least i HOPE it was in there..
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #50 on: <08-09-18/0049:02> »
To be fair, I think TMs definitely can be done nicely, even if you hate them. =P Something like Intuition-based on-the-fly-only people, maybe creating momentum as they hack in the form of Sprites giving them bonuses. No Cyberdecks, no Marks, no permanent Sprites stuff, building up Overwatch like a mother. But no Marks means no 'ok, let's make this thing do X after I hacked it twenty minutes ago'. And no poorly-phrased Diagnostics that people keep insisting works on guns even though it talks about TOOLS.... *GRRRRRRR*
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Marcus

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« Reply #51 on: <08-09-18/0059:45> »
I think you should give him some space Michael. I think we all made real progress today. Reaver completed his 12 step program, that's really tough ya know.
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Marcus

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« Reply #52 on: <08-09-18/0102:50> »
No one would ever have accept that Diagnostic usage if the class hadn't been utterly lobotomized. I'm fairly sure things will be set to right next week.
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Reaver

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« Reply #53 on: <08-09-18/0109:32> »
To be fair, I think TMs definitely can be done nicely, even if you hate them. =P Something like Intuition-based on-the-fly-only people, maybe creating momentum as they hack in the form of Sprites giving them bonuses. No Cyberdecks, no Marks, no permanent Sprites stuff, building up Overwatch like a mother. But no Marks means no 'ok, let's make this thing do X after I hacked it twenty minutes ago'. And no poorly-phrased Diagnostics that people keep insisting works on guns even though it talks about TOOLS.... *GRRRRRRR*

I really do hope they come up with something that works for Technos.

I may hate them with a red hot passion I usually only reserve for the Ex-wife, but I also recognize that other people do like them. And even though I do take a perverse glee in the fact that they ARE so broken (does that make me a bad person?), It's not fair for those that do enjoy them.

And really, my problem with technos is solved by not playing them.. As it stands, those that do like technos don't have that option :(
And everyone's fun should come before my own person whims on the matter, especially since I can just choose to not play them.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Reaver

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« Reply #54 on: <08-09-18/0628:50> »
I'm going to take a few electrons here, and expand on why I do dislike technomancers, just because statements I have made here tie into other threads and statements that I have there, and I just realized not everyone reads all the threads like I do. (Yes, I have no life ATM, its wonderful!).

Shadowrun has been dear to my heart for a long time because for one, I am as old as dirt. (I saw your complaints FastJack, I got a couple of years on you!). And shadowrun at it's time was the perfect blend of genre of the time. "Tolkien Meets Blade Runner" isn't just a catch phase for some of us. Its a statement that speaks to a generation that grew up reading Tolkien's Hobbit as required reading in school, and the Neon lights, loud music, and leather stylings that predominated every action movie of the time. 

The biggest movies of our generation were Terminator, Star Wars, and Blade Runner.... Black leather, lasers, and space magic :D
And all this under the real threat of Nuclear war. (Remember kiddies, The Cold War? Yea, fun times on the paranoia train!)

Sure, there was other Dystopian themed games. Sure there was other Cyberpunk games. Fantasy has been there forever.

But it was Shadowrun that combined everything together for the first time. Even if it did piss off one of the very people that inspired it.

Shadowrun was also very careful in what they attempted to do. They could see that they were trying to combine 3 very different games into one setting. (A magical, a physical, and a digital). And they also wanted to explore the essence of Cyberpunk. Man Vs Tech. Machine VS soul. Blood Vs electron. Tech gone awry.

The design choices were bold for the time. instead of a "level" system that the most popular games of that era used, they went with a karma system. Instead of using odd shaped dice, they chose to make a system that used the common cube die. instead of a floating, variable structural life system, they choose to limit all health to 10.

From there, they laid out the foundations of the setting, and the 3 core elements. Magic, Technology, and Digital. then placed limits on their interactions.
It was pretty clear where things stood for a long time.

The Digital space, and anything that was mechanic fell under the domain of two technological powerhouses.
The Rigger who was a master of all things that moved. From cars, to drones, to ships to aircraft. If it was a physical object and moved, the Rigger could use it better then it could use itself.
If it received, sent, encoded, decoded information, then it was the realm of the Decker, whose ability to crack code was almost "Technomanic"....They were the Wizards of the Matrix.

On the Magical side of things, you had to opposite traditions of magic. The cold science of the Hermetic magic (the "techy" side of magic ), and you have the holistic Shamantic  tradition.
They both did essentially did the exact same thing, it was just their approach that differed.

On the Physical side of things;
You had the cybernetic powerhouse of the Sammy who paid for his power with his very soul.
And you had his polar opposite, the adept, whose magic re-enforced and strengthened his body, but only if he kept it pure..

Everything had it counter, and was balanced on a philosophical principle and less on a mechanical principle....



And then you had the glorious, wonderful, frightening, rage educing, side splitting fun times that happened when these elements meant in odd combinations. Coupled with poor reading of the rules, poor wording, and a first edition of a brand new rule set... and it was great! Remember kiddies if you had questions back then, you had to write them out on a piece of paper, and then MAIL them to FASA. None of this "Me gonna whine on a forum and me sum answoz!!" Shit.
NO Sir! You said"Please" and "Thank you" and were POLITE! You even included a self addressed postage paid envelope to return the answer to you! The smart ones even mailed in REAL MONEY! - And you never, if ever heard back. IF you were lucky Dragon Magazine may run a FAQ article with FASA about something. But other then that, you fuckkin figured it out yerselves!

So, of course a second edition came about and cleaned up some of the "oops" and "whoops" and the "We are sorry please don't take our thumbs!" mistakes.
Of course it wasn't perfect. There were errors of all types, the system was extremely complex. The learning curve was steep, and the incident of "bleeding eyeballs" was
great. it was during 2e that the stories got darke.. and I do mean Darke... with magical nasties that only dragons souls could slow down dark... Magic was probably at its highest point of power at this point.... but that came a steep cost for the awakened thanks to how all the rules played out...

3e, was probably the edition I like the most. It was Lethal, complex, divisive, diverse, and had soul... but I also started to notice things creeping in that I didn't care for.
3e was also when SR decided to focus on the matrix side of things much more heavily. And it made sense.. Y2K was right around the corner and some people really thought the world was going to end as the clocks all rolled over to 00:00:00:00:00.... So the threat of some accidental coding error killing us all was in the public mind. Factor in movies like Lawnmowerman, and 1999, that were popular at the time, and it made sense to focus in the "evils" of tech and code.

But they also started threading in something else, something that went against their established Cyberpunk roots... A thread of Transhumanism, and the holistic connection of man and machine implied by transhumanism - the very opposite of the very core of itself. At First these threads were very small, and limited to the Otaku, an npc organization of special people that could interface with the matrix without ASIST tech. Something that Deckers had to pay for. (if only a very minor 0.5 essence for the datajack).
But then, they opened them up for limited (and cautioned NOT to use!) play... one more step down that road... thank fully they put a limit on Otaku,  the older they got, the weaker their abilites got. (And keep in mind, the only difference at this point was 1 single item)

And the End of 3e comes with the giant cliffhanger of just how Fucked the world is. The matrix is swiss cheese  and tens of thousands of people are in comas. Winternight's bombs, caused mayhem, Government coup attempts and rumored counter attempts left us wondering who was really in charge. And the Otaku slaughtered almost to the man by asssianation and death squads, betrayed by one of their own.


4e was going to be GREAT!!!!!


So 4e comes out and read it. And read it. And. Read. It.....

And so began my 12 step program to get over technomancers.


On the surface, its was still shadowrun. It had Trogs, and Tuskers, Pointy Ears, and Stubbies. There were even Hatchetman! (in spirit)  And Jack!
But there was a serious cancer in there too. I looked and did the math...


Magic was a little thrown off, but this happened in 3e with the introduction of the UMT, and the effort to make more "Traditions" instead of working the Hermetic/shamanic divide. - in my humble opinion, they could of done both. Kept the divide, and increase the traditions. 
But it was workable. Sadly I saw openings that would have to monitored for attempted exploits as things that were clear before were more murky now. (the mixture of tech and magic. Teleportation, returning to life, and other taboos.) and was unimpressed by the some game choices here. (that's not for now. and would be surprising to many i think!)

Physical space was still the Domain with Sammies and Adepts fingering each other and Riggers being a wildcard. But there was a smell.....

The matrix.
Oh god the Matrix!
I read. I cried. I praised the gaming gods. And then I re-read, paying very close attention. I cried. And I cried. (I was still in denial at this point, so my journey on the 12 step
program had yet to happen).
At first i could instantly see what they were trying to do. They were trying to cut down on the decker mini-game, and thus make decking a more palatable option for group play. But something was off.. very off.

I looked at the classes that 4e presented:
The Hacker
The Technomancer
The Rigger

<I think I just shat myself>   

There were 3 classes... and looking deeper, what did I find... I found a clusterfuck of shit. In the presentation of lore, in the mechanics that governed them, and their interactions with everything else.

Looking at success resolution for magic and physical, it was pretty clear the formula. (SKILL)+(ATTRIB) VS <defense of whatever mechanic>
But not so for "hackers" They were this odd mix of (Skill)+(SOFTWARE)......
Technomancers followed a mechanic similar to magic, filtered into this (skill)+(software) mechanic through their threading of abilities, and defended by some strange conversion of their mental stats into a living commlink... to satisfy their strange defense mechanics.. 
Riggers, were thrown into this stew pot and giving the flavor of Rigger... as they handled everything with the same test mechanic of the matrix.... minus exceptional situations.

It was blindingly clear to me. They had broken the digital side of the game design by ignoring their very core of the game system's Cyberpunk roots -which is the polar opposite of transhumanism. They had tried to include a "holistic" digital element into a system that was never designed to allow for the concept. And in doing so had broken the core mechanics that lay in the foundation of the game.

And I think by the 3rd Source book FanPro knew it too. Things went dead on the matrix side of the game for a long, long while....

The 4e20a version cleaned up some problems, that is very true. But at the core, there was this festering boil that, in one fell swoop of "inclusion" had broken essentially 3, and potentially ALL arch-types in the game.

Now why do i say this? It's the change of the mechanics to the digital side of things to allow for technomancers that, effectively killed dedicated hackers, and even riggers to an extent.

The Magic side, and Physical, and even the digital side all ran off a similar power mechanic for progression all the way up to 4e.

from 1 to 3:

For the Magical side: you had 2 ATTRIB combined into a spell pool that you could use + (ATTRIB)+(Skill)
For the Physical side you had  2 ATTRIB combined into a combat pool and you could use + (Attrib)+(Skill)
For the digtal side you had 2 ATTRIB combined into a Matrix pool and you could use (skill)OR(attrib)+(Device)* this been the deck, the drone, the car they all had matching stats for their intended targets.

So things were Different.

Now everyone's pools were reduced, and the mechanics much easier to follow.... but there was a problem. Physical and magical still ran off of a (Attrib)+(Skill) mechanic....
And defense was a (Attrib)+(attrib)+(Skill) test... Combine this with the way Hackers, and Riggers now worked...

Well, they both as a dedicated class when *poof* faster then triple chocolate fudge ice-cream does into a teen girl after they have been dumped. (As a Father, of a Teen Girl, I can attest this is  frightening! They can easily consume 4 times their mass while crying, texting 3 different girlfriends, talking into a phone, and plotting the painful vivisection of her former love interest. Their Mothers train them well.)

Hacking became a add-on to the Sammy. Rigging went great with adepts...

And their, flopping alone  as the sole dedicated Digital archetype specialization... The Technomancer, forced to be a specialization by its requirement of attributes and skills, crippled by its requirements for attributes and skills.. they sat their alone. In the dark. Being very sad...

And someone had the bright idea to toss in the radioactive cookie of "If I can touch it, I can FUCK IT!"......oh, and Spirites got a teeny tiny upgrade.... so they went from kinda cute and useful to.... OMFGAREYOUFUCKINGKIDDINGME!!!! as they got spray electron jizz on shit and somehow it gave you +9787.00003 extra dice to everything... Except for resisting in THE ONE FUCKING AREA YOU ACTUALLY NEEDED A BUFF IN!!! - matrix damage.

<drinks more beer. Smokes>
<smokes>
<Beer>

Anyways. Now here we are in 5e.

Some clean up of the damage I feel that was inflicted by 4e is getting cleaned up... Sure there are rough spots, and there errors in both judgement and writing that need cleaning up.... But I still see this... boil in the rules as they attempt to bow out and fit in the concept that really doesn't belong in the setting...

There's a lot strain in the Digital side of the game as they attempt to pull things into alignment, its hard trying to balance 3 archtypes, using 2 different mechanics. And its showing.
Deckers are working well for the most part.. Riggers are breaking under the strain of trying to saddle 2 lines, and failing... and Technomancers have gotten the royal shaft.



And the fact that they are getting the royal shift is unfortunate because now that the genie is out of the bottle, and they have a following; a serious attempt has to be made to
bring them not only back into the fold, but make them a viable archtype without becoming Stupid again.   



 

 


 

« Last Edit: <08-09-18/0637:17> by Reaver »
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Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #55 on: <08-23-18/2153:38> »
If you want mimics -- at least for the critter side -- you want a protean.  An evolution that enables it to mostly imitate an inanimate object it has engulfed ... might not be out of bounds.
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