NEWS

Changing Ownership (illegally)

  • 10 Replies
  • 3249 Views

Zweiblumen

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1803
« on: <01-05-15/0114:46> »
Playing in a PbP here where I'm looking at having to steal something.  It was brought up that in the German version of the books it states that the device has to be connected to the matrix the entire time to do this, and the reason for that was to make it pretty much impossible due to the Overwatch Score it would cause.  So does that mean that player characters aren't supposed to be able to change ownership (read: steal) items?  Also, how does a hardware action that is neither a sleaze nor an attack action cause OS?

FWIW, this is what I'm going off of:
P237 CRB SR5 "The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer own- ership to another persona in a process that takes about a minute. If you steal a smartgun without transferring the ownership, the gun will still behave as though its owner is the guy you stole it from (which can lead to complications if the owner comes looking for it). That means changing ownership is a high-priority action any time you steal a wireless-enabled item. You can illegal- ly change a device’s owner with a Hardware toolkit and an Extended Hardware + Logic [Mental] (24, 1 hour) test. A glitch on that test results in the item sending a report to the authorities."

Our GM has ruled a compromise on the "Has to be Online" and "Causing OS" by requiring it to be online, but not causing OS.  I'm happy with his ruling, but wanted more insight into what's going on here for future situations where I may not have such an accomodating GM, or I'm GM'ing and my players want a better explanation.

Thanks in advance!
Speech, Thoughts, Comm/Text, Subvocal

Namikaze

  • *
  • Freelancer Ltd
  • Prime Runner
  • **
  • Posts: 4068
  • I'm a Ma'fan of Shadowrun!
« Reply #1 on: <01-05-15/0208:06> »
Honestly, it's up to the GM as you already know.  But the topic has been discussed ad nauseum here on the forums, with no general consensus.  The only developer that has given feedback on this is Aaron, who's feedback jives with the German sourcebook.  I'm expecting that Data Trails will have more on this topic, but honestly it's a huge gray area right now.  I appreciate you giving us the German version of the rules though - those of us that don't have access to the book (or can't read German) would otherwise not have that rule.

The German book can have some additional or different content from the English book due to licensing issues, but sometimes it's good to at least have that as an example of what could be possible.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

Zweiblumen

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1803
« Reply #2 on: <01-05-15/0239:21> »
I don't have the German book, and my German is shite 😝. I was just told it was in there but with no specifics.

Thanks for the summary of "no consensus".  Saves me from having to dig through all info 😉
Speech, Thoughts, Comm/Text, Subvocal

Herr Brackhaus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3041
« Reply #3 on: <01-05-15/0304:18> »
Why would a Hardware + Logic [Mental] test cause overwatch?

Quote from: SR5 page 232 (emphasis mine)
The moment you perform an illegal action (Attack or Sleaze), you get an Overwatch Score, or OS, that your gamemaster uses to track how much evidence you’ve been leaving in your wake. When you perform an Attack or Sleaze action, your OS increases by the number of hits the target gets on its defense test.

The Overwatch Score also increases as time goes by. If the demiGODs have time to analyze your activities, they’ll notice traces of your passing and will start to get closer and closer. Every fifteen minutes after you first start tallying an OS, it increases by another 2D6 (rolled by the gamemaster in secret).

Those are the conditions for gaining and increasing a Grid Overwatch Score. Until you take that first Attack or Sleaze action, you don't have an overwatch score, and are free to pursue the Hardware + Logic [Mental] test at your leisure. Honestly, the biggest problem as I see it is getting to that 24 threshold.

Assuming a Human with Logic 6, Hardware 6, a relevant specialization and the proper tools, you're looking at a dice pool of 14. Further assuming mathematically average rolls with diminishing dice pools (page 48), you're looking at the following results:
1st hour: 4.67 hits
2nd hour: 4.33 hits
3rd hour: 4.00 hits
4th hour: 3.67 hits
5th hour: 3.33 hits
6th hour: 3.00 hits
7th hour: 2.67 hits

At the end of the 7th straight hour you'll have reached 25.67 hits, and successfully transferred ownership. Assuming the owner is still alive and not unconscious in a ditch somewhere, and since the owner can automatically spot the icon in the Matrix, all it takes for the owner to find the physical location of his equipment is to hire a decker to use the Trace Icon on it. This would take approximately 3-6 seconds, depending on the decker.

One way to combat this is to have a counter-decker and/or pocket agent removing marks on the device as soon as they appear, but this obviously will accrue a Grid Overwatch Score. Thus, the better option is likely to ensure that any gear you steal and want to change ownership of either belongs to an owner who is no longer alive, or who will remain unconscious long enough for you to perform your task. Alternatively, keeping on the move (i.e. performing the ownership hack in the back of a van or a semi-trailer while driving around the countryside) is an option, as is travelling far enough away from the location of the owner to where it takes them longer to reach you than it takes you to change the ownership in the first place, or a combination of both.

The rules for extended tests also do allow for setting a task aside and resuming it later, though I'm not sure how wise this is in this particular instance.

In any case, to me this option boils down to "how much trouble is the item worth". If it'll fetch you a pretty penny as long as it isn't obviously stolen (i.e. doesn't belong to you) or it's something you want for yourself, then go for it. The odd Ares Predator V you took off of that corp sec guard; nah, not worth the hassle.

Lucean

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1159
« Reply #4 on: <01-05-15/0530:10> »
Zweiblumen, if you have someone reference rules for you, make sure that they do it right. As Herr Brackhaus said the rules for transfer of ownership have nothing to do with OS. This didn't change with the german book. It wouldn't make sense to give a test to do it, when being faced with 8d6 (2d6 per 15 minutes) overwatch per interval of the extended hardware test with such a threshold.

Herr Brackhaus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3041
« Reply #5 on: <01-05-15/0540:35> »
As an addendum, situations like changing ownership is where NPC chop-shops might come in handy if you ask me.

Assume the same Logic 6, Hardware 6 + Specialization 2 specialist, but add three skilled assistants. Let's say they have Logic 4, Skill 4, Specialization 2, and they all teamwork the test. With each assistant starting with 10 dice (mathematical average 3.33 hits) the leader will get the maximum +6 dice pool and +3 Limit increase per roll, and is now rolling 20 dice to start off. At this point it takes the team just 4 hours to change ownership assuming mathematical averages (6.67+6.33+6.00+5.67=24.67), but now you're looking at a team of 4 people working together. In short, changing ownership illegally is definitively something that will require significant and dedicated effort.

Zweiblumen

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1803
« Reply #6 on: <01-05-15/1700:25> »
Zweiblumen, if you have someone reference rules for you, make sure that they do it right. As Herr Brackhaus said the rules for transfer of ownership have nothing to do with OS. This didn't change with the german book. It wouldn't make sense to give a test to do it, when being faced with 8d6 (2d6 per 15 minutes) overwatch per interval of the extended hardware test with such a threshold.

That was my thought.  The other part of it was wether the device had to be connected to the matrix while this was happening.  I can't find any reference to this, but it was alluded that it needed to be.  Namikaze pointed out that there is no concensus on it.  So we are back to House Ruling it.  Which is fine, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something because I often do.

Any, thanks everyone for the feed back!
Speech, Thoughts, Comm/Text, Subvocal

Namikaze

  • *
  • Freelancer Ltd
  • Prime Runner
  • **
  • Posts: 4068
  • I'm a Ma'fan of Shadowrun!
« Reply #7 on: <01-05-15/1714:13> »
For what it's worth, I'm of the opinion the only reason the device needs to be connected to the Matrix is so that the owner can track the item and/or so the item can alert the owner to the theft (Critical Glitch).  If you take away the Matrix access requirement, I think it makes stealing things too easy.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

Malevolence

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Matrix Addict
« Reply #8 on: <01-05-15/1732:45> »
Fluff wise, the online requirement likely stems from this statement on pg 236:
Quote from: CRB

 
 
 Ownership, at least in the Matrix, is something that is registered with both the device (or other icons) and the grids
Emphasis mine.
Crunch wise, yeah, I think it is to make it riskier as the online device can be traced and the crit glitch scenario doesn't then lose its teeth (though even if disconnected ownership changes were allowed, I'd consider the CG as the device somehow connecting to the Matrix despite precautions and alerting the authorities).
And I agree, there is no need for an accumulating OW score.
 
   
Speech Thought Matrix/Text Astral

Spooky

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 462
  • If you run, you'll only die tired.
« Reply #9 on: <01-05-15/1925:37> »
Well, I would say that if the item is offline, a critical glitch would be a permanent way to brick whatever it is, since you are messing with everything that makes the item work. Seems like a reasonable occurance to me...
Spooky, what do you do this pass? Shoot him with my thunderstruck gauss rifle. (Rolls)  8 hits. Does that blow his head off?

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #10 on: <01-05-15/2120:07> »
I always looked at it as "always wireless" is set to 'on' on the device, and since you are not the owner, you can't turn the wireless off....

But, that's just me.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.