[Michael Chandra]

Yeah, that's definitely out of line from that GM. Even leaving aside the fact he should have given you multiple chances to realize you were in trouble, and any debate on whether spotting you would be opposed or unopposed, why toss a trick that can't be defended against at a player without giving them a headsup on it in the first place?

Care to send your GM over here, so he can debate the case with us? Because I really would like their explanation on this, and whether he realizes it's a bad thing he basically damaged you as a player now.

[D Prime]

I'm not sure I'm damaged as a player, but I was certainly annoyed.

His argument was that living things glow in astral space, so there is no way to hide from astral perception. And drones are everywhere, so my character had no reason to pay any attention to that particular drone until it shot me.

Basically, this GM turns the magic up to 11, so that non-Awakened characters are essentially useless.

[Reaver]

It boils down to this: you GM made a bad call.

A person using stealth is using as effective against astral perception as he is against mundane perception.... minus any technological equipment.

So your stealth suit, or ruthenium coating doesn't count, but your natural skill does!

[D Prime]

I think the issue is that it doesn't actually say that anywhere in the published rules (as far as I know), leaving it open to interpretation.

[Crunch]

I'm not sure I'm damaged as a player, but I was certainly annoyed.

His argument was that living things glow in astral space, so there is no way to hide from astral perception. And drones are everywhere, so my character had no reason to pay any attention to that particular drone until it shot me.

Basically, this GM turns the magic up to 11, so that non-Awakened characters are essentially useless.

Actually he's by the book correct, the issue is that it's just something you probably shouldn't do as a GM.

I will say that you might talk to your GM about effective measures for hiding from astral. Crowds are good. As are potted plants. A swarm of gnats or mosquitos will provide cover etc. Big public events like parades and rally's usually have a lot of background emotion that makes an astral perciever's job harder. Blending in emotionally (or being less agitated than the people around you) will help as well. There are ways to hide from astral perception, you need to find out which ones your GM allows.

Also, it's a rare security plan that depends on a mage patrolling astrally looking for physical threats. That's what guards, drones and watcher spirits are for. An Astral Mage is by themselves and exposed against astral threats, their body is empty and exposed and over a period of time it becomes uncomfortable. If your sniper is a key part of the plan (which he should be) see if the mage can keep a spirit (or a spirit and a watcher spirit so the watcher can run and tell him somethings wrong) hanging around astrally to play geek the mage with anyone who comes looking.

It's also worth pointing out that he would have to percieve you, return to his body or to an area with friendlies, manifest or return to meat space. communicate the information to someone who was controlling the drone, have the controller vector the drone to you, the drone would have to travel, pick you up with sensors, and then engage you. So it shouldn't be an instantaneous process.

At the very worst you should hae been able to have a chance to detect the drone incoming, and the drone should have had to detect you (probably with an opposed check against your sneak - possibly with a bonus if the mage took the time to give a detailed description of your hiding place) before it could fire at you.

[Lysanderz]

This is not a change from 4th, it was like that there too. Astral is great to spot people in empty, dead areas, but it sucks as soon as plantlife or any other life is involved. It's a nightmare to find someone with astral sight in a crowd. A mage looking in the astral also can't really tell if you're wearing the correct uniform or not, so the flipside is that if you act like a normal guard in the distance, the mage will probably not bat an eye.

Hence why my sneak thief pick pocket and assassin worked WONDERS assassinating mages. He's just blend in the crowd and show just enough of himself to draw the Mage in... Before walking up and holding the muzzle of a shit pistol under his chin and whispering "Son of Sam can't touch me"

Hehehhe

[D Prime]

There are ways to hide from astral perception, you need to find out which ones your GM allows.

The question is, is the "Sneak" skill an abstract representation of knowing how to conceal oneself (including astrally), or is it strictly for hiding from physical observation? Does a player always need to say "Also, I am hiding amongst plants to conceal my astral signature" (the way I now always specify that I am watching for drones), or can we assume that characters using stealth skills know to do that? I would argue the latter, but the rules don't seem to give any indication either way.

[Crunch]

In my game I would assume that a non astrally aware character is taking at least basic astral stealth precautions. I'd also assume that anyone was watching for drones. I might assess a -2 penalty to whichever form of stealth the sneaker wasn't focussing on, but it depends.

The rules are an abstraction and can't (and in my opinion shouldn't) cover every possible situation. This is a situation where a lot of calls will be up to the GM, and the GM will need to be sensitive and communicate clearly BEFORE he insta gibs someone with no defense.

Each table is it's own beast, but I have trouble imagining myself sitting back down with a GM who said "Oh and don't bother rolling your dead before the fight starts because stuff." That just doesn't seem fun to me.

[IKerensky]

If your sniper was set on top of a water tower or construction engine within spotting range then I will agree that without magical stealth you were just a sitting spot of bright on a grey sky, particularily noticeable. Now to behave as hé did I think your GM have something against you or your character... Check it with him.

Personnaly I found sniper about the more useless character in a SR team, they always want to be alone on a height as far as the action as possible, so they are usually able to contribute very little when things goes wrong or un expected...

[Kincaid]

If your sniper was set on top of a water tower or construction engine within spotting range then I will agree that without magical stealth you were just a sitting spot of bright on a grey sky, particularily noticeable. Now to behave as hé did I think your GM have something against you or your character... Check it with him.

Personnaly I found sniper about the more useless character in a SR team, they always want to be alone on a height as far as the action as possible, so they are usually able to contribute very little when things goes wrong or un expected...

Assuming the mage was on ground level and the sniper was on top of the tower in a prone position, the vast majority of the sniper's body is going to be concealed by the tower/platform.  Living things glow astrally, but they don't shine through solid objects. 

[Crunch]

Assuming the mage was on ground level and the sniper was on top of the tower in a prone position, the vast majority of the sniper's body is going to be concealed by the tower/platform.  Living things glow astrally, but they don't shine through solid objects.

The mage was astrally projecting, so could conceivably have been anywhere. I still think fiat killing PCs is a mistake.

[farothel]

I would assume that everybody who learns how to sneak around, knows the basics of how to do so against magical treats.  Like if you learned in the army, they will have at one point have someone come in and tell you have spirits, projecting mages and percieving adepts view the astral and what you have to do to protect yourself from it.

As for the situation described, if the sniper has a tarp over himself (and which sniper doesn't) and his hidden from below by most of the building he's on, it will not be an automatic find.  But next time put yourself in a building and just cut a hole in the glas sufficient to put your rifle through.  If the mage doesn't know you're there, he won't be able to see you as astrally you can't look through windows (while you can see anything that goes on in the real world).

[Reaver]

For the most part, snipers are a mostly useless archetype in SR given the types of jobs runners do... But they also come in very handy for those few times that they can be used..

[Crunch]

That's largely a matter of game style and group style Reaver, and probably grounds for another thread if you want to discuss the usefulness of snipers.

I'd say that the core ability set of snipers (Sneaking, Longarms, Perception, Willpower, Athletics) seems to translate pretty well to a wide variety of situations.

[Michael Chandra]

If you didn't get to roll sneaking, that means the Drone simply followed directions from the mage*. That makes it blind firing and with cover. And Perception is to notice something's wrong. In other words, you had every right on a Perception roll because that drone would be behaving strangely and you had a chance to notice that. The GM should have read the skill description better.

*: If you were far away from the mage's meatbody they'd have to use a Watcher spirit, with which they have a mental link, to pass on the information.