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Random quesitons_Combat spells vs. doors ?

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Tnirb

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« on: <01-19-22/0345:40> »
After a fun run last night the players and I got some questions. Only 3rd time we play Shadowrun so got a lot to learn yet. :)

1: So the Streets Shaman tried to blow down a rusty iron door in some sewer beneath Seattle. He used "Powerball" as it is the only Physical spell he got at the moment. The doors rating is sat to 12 - something like a reinforced wooden door+. P. 112, "Breaking Through" Doesn't say anything about spells.
Is it even possible? Guess he needs Damage on net hits to be +6 every time to meet/exceed the struture rating?

2: Spells line of sight (LOS): A player asked if a silhouette behind a curtain is "LOS"?

3: And for AoE spells: Can you aim at a corner of a building to make the AoE hit targets in cover? Or do you need LOS to the AoE-area?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <01-19-22/1103:12> »
Since it's a physical spell which does Physical damage, I'd treat it like a normal weapon attack. So yes, that puts it at needing Amping before you even are allowed to damage it. If you want a dedicated spell, you'd need a variant of Ram. Then again, as a GM you might rule 'since spell effects are a bit bigger than simple bullets, let's rule them as specialized melee' and let them use their net hits.

Line of sight needs a physical line of sight. So no, the silhouette isn't within LOS unless it's an indirect combat spell, then you'd be blasting the spell through the curtain.

AoE: I don't know what the rules exactly state, but I'm used to 'mana needs you to also have LOS on the targets in the AoE, physical you only need the LOS to unleash the spell at its center'.
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MercilessMing

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« Reply #2 on: <01-19-22/1217:50> »
After a fun run last night the players and I got some questions. Only 3rd time we play Shadowrun so got a lot to learn yet. :)

1: So the Streets Shaman tried to blow down a rusty iron door in some sewer beneath Seattle. He used "Powerball" as it is the only Physical spell he got at the moment. The doors rating is sat to 12 - something like a reinforced wooden door+. P. 112, "Breaking Through" Doesn't say anything about spells.
Is it even possible? Guess he needs Damage on net hits to be +6 every time to meet/exceed the struture rating?
Powerball is Direct Damage, so the caster rolls Sorcery + Magic.  Since it's a physical object, the barrier rolls Object Resistance (CRB pg 129).  Caster's net hits become damage to the object.  That's how direct damage spells operate.
Here's a caveat for other uses of Powerball from Street Wyrd - "If the Body of the object such as a vehicle or drone is greater than the Object Resistance, use the Body of object instead."

But what does damage to the object mean exactly?
This doesn't get covered until the magic supplement Street Wyrd on pg. 28. 
Quote from: Street Wyrd pg 28
Damage reduces the Structure Rating of the barrier. If the Structure Rating is reduced to 0, a one-half-meter hole is created in the structure. Additional net hits increase the size of the hole by half a meter in diameter, up to casterís Magic rating meters in diameter.
It seems this is a really inefficient way to blow a hole in something, but a good way to damage and destroy the entire structure.

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2: Spells line of sight (LOS): A player asked if a silhouette behind a curtain is "LOS"?
No.  You have to actually see the thing, not just know where it is.

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3: And for AoE spells: Can you aim at a corner of a building to make the AoE hit targets in cover? Or do you need LOS to the AoE-area?
AoE spells are actually marked "LOS(A)" in the rules. The book defines it as "the spell has a LOS range and also has an area of effect".  LOS range declares "the caster needs physical line of sight to the target".  This could be clearer, but my take is that only targets you have LOS on in the area are affected, because that's how I remember old versions of Shadowrun working.  I guess you have to ask yourself if the spell is affecting the area, or things in the area.  Some spells (phantasm) affect an area.  When it comes to Powerball, I say that things in the area are the targets.

Tnirb

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« Reply #3 on: <01-19-22/1420:48> »
Thanks - you guys rock! :)

Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <01-19-22/1529:42> »
Line of sight needs a physical line of sight. So no, the silhouette isn't within LOS unless it's an indirect combat spell, then you'd be blasting the spell through the curtain.
Is this actually spelled out in SR6 somewhere...?

Sir Ludwig

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« Reply #5 on: <01-19-22/1551:42> »
Good Afternoon,

The barrier examples are p112-113 SR6. 

The Magic, Technology,and Resistance which includes the object resistance table is p129, SR6.

Regards,
SL
Si vis pacem, para bellum

MercilessMing

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« Reply #6 on: <01-19-22/1649:17> »
Line of sight needs a physical line of sight. So no, the silhouette isn't within LOS unless it's an indirect combat spell, then you'd be blasting the spell through the curtain.
Is this actually spelled out in SR6 somewhere...?
Indirect combat spells still need LOS, Chandra.

Tnirb

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« Reply #7 on: <01-20-22/0159:31> »
Good Afternoon,

The barrier examples are p112-113 SR6. 

The Magic, Technology,and Resistance which includes the object resistance table is p129, SR6.

Regards,
SL

I had missed/forgotten about the table on p. 129. Thanks for bringing that up!

But now I see that Direct Combat spells (Powerball) is no meant to be resisted. Not sure if that applies to objects though?
CRB: Page 132, "Direct Combat Spells". Last line of text.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #8 on: <01-20-22/0754:12> »
Good Afternoon,

The barrier examples are p112-113 SR6. 

The Magic, Technology,and Resistance which includes the object resistance table is p129, SR6.

Regards,
SL

I had missed/forgotten about the table on p. 129. Thanks for bringing that up!

But now I see that Direct Combat spells (Powerball) is no meant to be resisted. Not sure if that applies to objects though?
CRB: Page 132, "Direct Combat Spells". Last line of text.
Powerball is Physical so can impact things like drones and barriers, I guess. If we look at Drones, Clutch says Willpower-resistance means Object Resistance for those. Applying the same logic to Barriers, would suggest we use Object Resistance to resist the damage. However, I'd say that Barriers are special to begin with, they don't roll soak, the DV simply determines what happens. So in this case I'd say the DV is still all that matters.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

MercilessMing

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« Reply #9 on: <01-20-22/0908:06> »

I had missed/forgotten about the table on p. 129. Thanks for bringing that up!

But now I see that Direct Combat spells (Powerball) is no meant to be resisted. Not sure if that applies to objects though?
CRB: Page 132, "Direct Combat Spells". Last line of text.
Direct combat spells are resisted, but they are not soaked.
Indirect combat spells are like regular attacks in that you get a defense roll, and a soak roll. Direct combat spells only get a defense roll. However, direct damage spells have a base damage of zero and indirect damage spells have a base damage of magic divided by two.  Usually this means that player characters will do more damage with indirect spells because their magic will be six. Direct spells will only be more useful against really hard targets.

Tnirb

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« Reply #10 on: <01-20-22/1458:02> »
All right - I handle the powerball blasting Street Shaman a bit wrong in our last session.
I think I will introduce the players to explosives as a better way to handle doors/barriers in the future.
Thanks again for your answers :)

Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <01-20-22/1500:54> »
In SR5 direct spells were resisted by only Willpower (or by only Body).
In SR6 they are resisted by Willpower + Intuition.
- Direct combat spells used to be easier to not fail / harder to fully resist


In SR5 indirect spells were avoided like regular physical mundane attacks (Reaction + Intuition).
In SR6 indirect spells are opposed by Willpower + Reaction
- Opposing indirect seem streamlined with how direct spells are resolved
- Opposing indirect used to be avoiding but now seem to be a mix of resisting and avoiding


In SR5 indirect spells had a physical component that traveled in a straight line of fire between magician and target
In SR6 there does not seem to be any rule, examples or mentioning about indirect using line of fire rather than line of sight.
- Is RAI that indirect still work with straight line of fire through barriers and invisible targets as in SR5
- Is RAI same as RAW that indirect are now streamlined to use the same line of sight via reflective surfaces as direct


Indirect spell with same range and damage type seem to have the same drain value as its direct counterpart. As they are now also resolved similar it is possible to calculate that the indirect version seem to mathematically deal more damage as long as the magician's Magic/2 > the target's (Reaction+Body-Intuition)/3. Which mean that on average the indirect version seem to mathematically deal more damage for a magician with magic rating 6 as long as the target's (Intuition+9) is more than the target's (Reaction+Body). Which mean that no matter how low intuition the target have, Indirect will still always be the better option against targets that have less physical attributes than Reaction 5 + Body 5 (which is typically a vast majority of all opponents). Unlike Direct, Indirect also scale with Magic (which benefit indirect as magic rating increases later as the game progress, but at the same time of course instead act negatively early on for magicians that leave chargen with less magic).

With magic 6 Indirect is better against a target with:
Reaction 6, Body 8 and Intuition 6
Reaction 5, Body 8 and Intuition 5 (or more)
Reaction 6, Body 7 and Intuition 5 (or more)
Reaction 5, Body 7 and Intuition 4 (or more)
Reaction 6, Body 6 and Intuition 4 (or more)
Reaction 5, Body 6 and Intuition 3 (or more)
Reaction 6, Body 5 and Intuition 3 (or more)
Reaction 5, Body 5 and Intuition 2 (or more)
Less physical attributes than this and indirect is always the better option.


Direct versions are mathematically the better option against augmented elite enemies or trolls with extreme body ratings (as long as magic remain static it seem as if direct combat spells scale better against really tough enemies compared to indirect).

With magic 6 direct is better against a target with

Reaction 7, Body 11 and Intuition 8 (or less)
Reaction 7, Body 10 and Intuition 7 (or less)
Reaction 7, Body 9 and Intuition 6 (or less)
Reaction 7, Body 8 and Intuition 5 (or less)
Reaction 6, Body 9 and Intuition 5 (or less)
Reaction 6, Body 8 and Intuition 4 (or less)
Reaction 5, Body 8 and Intuition 3 (or less)
Reaction 6, Body 7 and Intuition 3 (or less)
Reaction 5, Body 7 and Intuition 2 (or less)
Reaction 6, Body 6 and Intuition 2 (or less)
Reaction 5, Body 6 and Intuition 1
Reaction 6, Body 5 and Intuition 1
« Last Edit: <01-20-22/1506:34> by Xenon »