[Weebomancer]

So I understand that the typical SR game isn't supposed to have very potent PC's but when you have played like that for over a dozen years it's nice to have a change of pace. My group that meets at my house has displayed a lot of self control during character generation and during games they have shown considerable mastery of the rules. At least all the player important ones. As it stands last week they helped each other out quite a bit with certain rulings, and don't forget this helped me out as well. I was thinking of making my next game a little more high powered then normal and would like to ask opinions on this. The book says 450 BP for an extra boost but honestly I was thinking around 600. I want these people to start off as true blue veterans to the shadows.  My current game is pretty standard and won't end for some time so this isn't a last minute cry for advice. Anyways here are some specs I came up with I want some opinions on this. Also the enemy in this game is going to be a dragon.

-600 BP - No more than 300 per catagory (Skills/Atts)
-BP for qualities goes to 50 BP upwards or downwards
-All rules on maximums at char gen are handled as normal (This I want to change but something tells me it's fine as is)
-I have no metatype or variant bans.
-Availability is raised to 18.
-House Rule: Everyone has each other as a free contact with loyalty determined by the players.

There are other house rules in there but I play every game with them since the group prefers them. No house rules are truly house rules, aside from the one mentioned above, they are all actually offered as options on Chummer (which gets them from books) so it's more like GM options. Anyways if you feel some need mentioning or altering bring them up please. But I would like to know how this stacks for a "Pro" runner team. Also if you think there is a better way to make a game feel high powered please let me know. I know sometimes people can miss little things that make a difference.

[Sichr]

IMO for this is better to use karmagen. It offers 750 Karma points for basic chargen. And then you decide how experienced characters you have...means how much Karma they had acomulated during they shadowrun activities, and add this ammount to the basic 750. You have really ballanced system for creation and developement, using one system, and results are damn good. And note that 100 karma is not even equivalent of additional 200 BP for chargen. And 100 karma is equivalent to cca 15 sucesfull runs IMO, so you may take even more, if you want to.
This will even simulate the character developement better than BP, because experienced characters have usualy more skills they found usefull along the way, then a few skills boosted up to mastery.

my +2cents here

[Xzylvador]

I have/had plans to run a high powers game myself, I would have handled it a bit different though.
To me, just handing out more BP's and high avail but following standard rules doesn't seem to fit. An important part of the whole "veteran" thing isn't higher stats and skills, but experience expressed in the form of knowledge and contacts. (A run in Paris/Moskou/Being/Rio huh? Yeah, I've passed through there a'couple'a times. Know some fine eating there and a guy in the suburbs who can get us what gear we need.)

Rules: start with standard rules 400BP characters and play at least one, or maybe two short runs. Just to get the "team" feeling. Maybe have it connected with the actual high powered game you'll run later, have some of the things decided/happening on this run have an impact on the later game (who'd they piss off, befriend, kill or let live).
Then, flash forward a couple of years. Explain what they've done and who they've worked for. Maybe some random rolls deciding who once saved whose butt or who messed up bit time that one time we almost ended up in jail.
Reward: x00 karma and x00.000Y, extra knowledge skill points equal to (highest stat+ logic/intuition) x 2, 3 or 4. Double/triple the amount  of points the chars originally spent on contacts. (And of course, they can spend karma too).
The've had plenty of time to ignore the training time rules and met enough people (and had enough time) to get anything up to xx availability (can spend karma on Restricted Gear to increase it).
Possibly some extra (edge?) rolls to decide some new qualities, both good and bad ones. Maybe he became ambidextrous after all that practice, maybe he made an enemy or got a mysterious implant.

Anyhow, that's what I had in mind for my game. This way they'll have been "starters" and know what they came from. They can make up their own history starting from that point too: Why did that contact's loyalty increase? How'd you get rid of that Addiction? When'd you learn about fine wines?
Also, this way, who they were has a larger impact on who they've become. That street sam full of second hand cyberware will have to decide what to replace and what not to... Immediately starting as a "pro" means he'll never even have bought those "obsolete" pieces, but let's face it, noone just starts with betaware implants!
And instead of Mr. Mage running around with his pocket full of Force 6 foci, he'll have some lower-rating things that might still be useful and have a history.

[Sichr]

Hmm...leads me to another idea, inspirative as always, Xzylv
What about short series of 5-7 one-shot quick runs, each with new characters, to introduce important NPCs, locations and places of interrest.
Then Sumarizing karma characters gained during this preparation phase, begin the campaign and give this karma for use duriong character creation, possibly with accent of using at least some of them for contacts.
Then begin campaign with this characters, who will blend very nice into current situations thanx to their previous experuience from the background...

[Mirikon]

Weebo, 600BP may be a bit of a stretch, especially for the Awakened/Emerged types.

I would instead do something like normal 400BP chargen, but then give them, say, 100-150 karma and an appropriate amount of bonus nuyen. The up side of this is that you don't have to go trying to house rule chargen on the fly, trying to find something that'll work. Just use the basic method for chargen, and then allow them to spend karma as they normally would through advancement.

The simplest solution is usually the best.

Oh, and if you run this game on the site, I am SO interested!

[JustADude]

I would instead do something like normal 400BP chargen, but then give them, say, 100-150 karma and an appropriate amount of bonus nuyen.

That "appropriate amount" would probably be 2,500¥ if you follow the guidelines set forth for buying Nuyen for gear in Karmagen. Comes out to 250,000¥-375,000¥, which sounds about right to me based on what I've seen from the "official" pay-rates in Missions.

The only way I can see it being abused is that they won't spend any BP on Nuyen unless they're really cash intensive. They'll just sink the starting cash into their "advanced" gear, without bothering with the intermediate steps.

[Mirikon]

I would instead do something like normal 400BP chargen, but then give them, say, 100-150 karma and an appropriate amount of bonus nuyen.

That "appropriate amount" would probably be 2,500¥ if you follow the guidelines set forth for buying Nuyen for gear in Karmagen. Comes out to 250,000¥-375,000¥, which sounds about right to me based on what I've seen from the "official" pay-rates in Missions.

The only way I can see it being abused is that they won't spend any BP on Nuyen unless they're really cash intensive. They'll just sink the starting cash into their "advanced" gear, without bothering with the intermediate steps.

That is a slight risk, yes. But it can be managed with a bit more intensive DM screening during the chargen process. My advice? When they are going through grabbing qualities, gear, spells, powers, and so on, have them write down book/page numbers, nuyen cost, essence cost for ware, and availability. That'll make it easier on you to check things out when you're reviewing characters.

And, as always, remind them that anything too outlandish WILL (not may, will) be used against them in turn. So if someone wants to walk around with a Gauss rifle, that's fine, but let them know that the response they receive will be commensurate to the threat, and big explosions tend to raise your Public Awareness, and move you towards the top of people's "To Do" lists.

[raggedhalo]

Why give the PCs each other as Contacts?  Contacts are NPCs - the PCs define their relationships to one another in play without needing game mechanics.

One house rule I always use that might help you is that I give them free stuff:

• I give them (Cha+Int)*3 BP to spend only on Contacts
• I give them the following Active Skills at Rating 2: Computer, Data Search, Dodge, Etiquette, Infiltration, Perception, and one of Blades, Clubs, Pistols, Thrown Weapons or Unarmed Combat.  If they want to trade some of them in to buy the Skill Group they're part of, that's fine by me

As others have said, I would suggest starting at 400BP and adding Karma (this also helps with initiation, submergence, and Street Cred).  Let them convert this Karma to cash at a rate of 1 Karma to 2,500 nuyen.  Allow them to buy anything up to Availability 20 with this money.

[Xzylvador]

Reason I give karma + knowledge/contact points is because otherwise, lots of people will just pump up their stats and skills and not "waste" points on knowledge/contacts.
As a result you get high powered shadowrun veterans who in truth have only their skills to brag about, not experience or connections; just doesn't make sense. This is why I'd advice giving a few less karma but a few more free knowledge & contact points.

Not handing out a fixed amount of nuyen, but just handing out karma and allowing them to buy 2500 nuyen for 1 karma might be welcomed by some players too.
Magicians and TM's tend to burn through karma quickly while money-heavy builds (street sams, riggers) might appreciate the chance to get some high-grade 'ware or some state-of-the-art vehicle/drone.

[Crash_00]

Depending on just how powerful you want the characters, you may want to really think about things. At 600 BPs, they can spend 300 BPs on attributes, but unless you tweak the rules they can only have one (physical or mental) at max.

If you mix the BP/Karma at character gen you wind up with the extremely easy exploit of:
-Using allotted BP to buy high attributes up very high, and leaving everything else at 1 in BP gen (to buy up with karma since its cheaper that way).

I personally recommend using the karma gen system (around 1100 karma for an equivalent feel i believe).

I also highly recommend opening up some of the standard character limitations (maybe allowing one skill at 6 and two at 5, or something similar and allowing more than one max attribute (two maybe three depending on if you include special attributes in there, more money acquired by BP/Karma). Otherwise I can foresee a certain amount of Jack of all trade syndrome developing as characters can't go further in the areas they actually want.

[Mirikon]

Personally, I've never cared for the karmagen system. But that 'exploit' you mentioned, Crash, could be easily dealt with by screening your players appropriately, and checking character sheets as you go along.

Simply get players who understand that cheese like that will be grounds for removal from the game, and you don't have to worry about making a rule for every situation. Sometimes simply talking with your players is the best solution. You don't have to make rules to prohibit things if you simply have a friendly chat with the players to get them to agree not to do something.

[Crash_00]

I personally just feel that creation is easier with one set of resources to deal with that has a set value. BP and Karma have different values and that's what creates the disparity. It's already seen in Character Creation (poor karma efficiency is the number one thing people point out in the character critique forums). While the cheese can be blatantly obvious (guy with 5 stats at 1 after BP creation that jump to 2s and 3s after karma), where does the cheese end? Does the trogger that left a 1 in charisma and logic and raised them both to two count as cheese? That's actually fairly common to see in normal BP creation and advancement in game.

The main issue I was trying to point out though is that going from a creation system with X points to creation system + X karma effectively removes all the restrictions already on character creation. With 150-200 karma you can raise pretty much any skill or attribute up (4-6s in skills costs 22 karma, That's six or seven skills you can max out going that route easily). If you're going to already have to screen things carefully, why not just set down restrictions and use one of the already decent systems?

I personally don't really get where all the Karmagen hate comes from. It seems solely based on the fact that you pay more for high DPs, but I think in the grand scheme of things, everyone can agree deep down that high DPs are worth more.

[Mirikon]

I wouldn't say I hate it, per se. I just plain don't like it. What I hate is the Priority system from 3E, or random character systems like you see in Heroes Unlimited. Karmagen isn't that bad, but I simply don't like it.

As for the example you gave, again, you don't need to make rules for this. Just talk with your players. Communication is the simplest and best solution in this case. Talking not only eliminates confusion, but it becomes a lot easier to see if someone is just trying to game the system or not.

[All4BigGuns]

I personally just feel that creation is easier with one set of resources to deal with that has a set value. BP and Karma have different values and that's what creates the disparity. It's already seen in Character Creation (poor karma efficiency is the number one thing people point out in the character critique forums). While the cheese can be blatantly obvious (guy with 5 stats at 1 after BP creation that jump to 2s and 3s after karma), where does the cheese end? Does the trogger that left a 1 in charisma and logic and raised them both to two count as cheese? That's actually fairly common to see in normal BP creation and advancement in game.

The main issue I was trying to point out though is that going from a creation system with X points to creation system + X karma effectively removes all the restrictions already on character creation. With 150-200 karma you can raise pretty much any skill or attribute up (4-6s in skills costs 22 karma, That's six or seven skills you can max out going that route easily). If you're going to already have to screen things carefully, why not just set down restrictions and use one of the already decent systems?

I personally don't really get where all the Karmagen hate comes from. It seems solely based on the fact that you pay more for high DPs, but I think in the grand scheme of things, everyone can agree deep down that high DPs are worth more.

Or people just aren't satisfied with what comes out with karma generation. All in all, where you said you 'personally don't get' it, can be flipped around on all of you who just throw it in people's face and try to talk everyone into going to karma generation for anything and everything. You and others like it, and others don't. You don't need to constantly throw it out into people's faces like it's the best thing in the world since sliced bread.

[Tsuzua]

What's your "normal" optimization level in your game?  If you're on the low to mid optimization level, you could just use Umaro's archetypes for a more high powered feel. 

If you want a high powered game with a sense of history, I would make the PCs as normal characters with your creation system of choice and be lenient on them.  Then go though 3-6 runs where the PCs get the chance to talk to a bunch of people.  Give those people out as free contacts.  At the end of each run, give out lots of karma and nuyen* to represent "other adventures" they had off screen. 

That way, you rapidly have some history and prior interactions  If you just give them a bunch of contacts, the contacts will be just "Bob-Fixer" until they get life breathed into them during play.  You can have these "starter" adventures tie into your overall plans, be independent, or whatever you want. 

*- At the end of all of this, I suggest being around 100-150 karma and 300-400,000Y.