[raggedhalo]

My view has always been that the power in the negotiating room is with the Johnson; you start making unreasonable demands (like ammo refunds, etc.) then you don't get the job.  You don't get the job, your fixer doesn't get their cut.  Pretty soon, they drop you because you aren't making them any money.

If your response to that is to host fundraisers etc., then congratulations - you aren't playing a shadowrunner, you're playing a charity worker.  And if SR4A is the system you want to use to do that, then more power to you.

My group handle expenses in a different way; there are five members of the group, but they split payouts six ways.  Their "sixth teammate" covers their expenses.

[CitizenJoe]

So, you're saying you just go in blind and try to negotiate based on what the Johnson offers?

Scenario:  Johnson offers 50K for a run, half up front.  You get your face in there and he manages to bump that up to 60K.  The Johnson reluctantly agrees and now he finally gives you the details... He wants you to off Lowfyr.  Now what?  You've already agreed to the deal. 

What I'm saying is that you can get specifics without the details.  In the Ludivenko Job, you don't give out the details, you say "I want you to contaminate a certain food product with toxic sludge.  It needs to be done within a week."  The runners can and probably SHOULD ask:
1. What are the handling precautions and gear needed for this toxic sludge?
a1: I will provide a sealed container with mating fixture that ties into the food system
a2: I hear they've got some good stuff at the CDC lab down in Ft. Lewis, use that stuff
2. What is the opposition expected to be? 
a1: Mall cops essentially, plus police if things escalate.
a2: Magic patrols plus drones and cybered paracritters.  I think they even have the local cops on the payroll
3. (for moral characters) What provisions are there for keeping the contaminated product out of public consumption?
a1: This is what we're trying to find out.  Their system SHOULD be able to find the contamination, but if it doesn't we'll find out quickly.
a2: We expect a hundred cases of food poisoning, possibly deaths.  It will get out there, either by you or someone else.
4. (for ethical characters) What's the territorial status of the site?
a1: Local business, Metroplex jurisdiction.
a2: Major AAA corp with extraterritorial status.

Obviously answer 1's are less expensive while too many answer 2's and you should probably just flatline this crazy slot.

[FastJack]

Scenario:  Johnson offers 50K for a run, half up front.  You get your face in there and he manages to bump that up to 60K.  The Johnson reluctantly agrees and now he finally gives you the details... He wants you to off Lowfyr.  Now what?  You've already agreed to the deal. 

Then the runners laugh at the Johnson, shoot him dead, call up S-K and give them all of the details on the Johnson.

[CitizenJoe]

Scenario:  Johnson offers 50K for a run, half up front.  You get your face in there and he manages to bump that up to 60K.  The Johnson reluctantly agrees and now he finally gives you the details... He wants you to off Lowfyr.  Now what?  You've already agreed to the deal. 

Then the runners laugh at the Johnson, shoot him dead, call up S-K and give them all of the details on the Johnson.

And when said Johnson turns out to be a free spirit and shrugs off the bullets and then claims your 'souls' for breach of contract before vanishing... what do you do then?  Do you still contact SK and make that deal with a dragon?

As I see it, you're either negotiating as part of the game or not.  If you, as a GM, want to keep the group at a certain power level and scrambling for jobs, frame the campaign as corporate runners.  You get an assignment, you do the assignment, there's no negotiations involved.  Or you drop them en media rez with them saying "I don't get paid enough for this drek!"  The point there is that you put them right into the action where the 'fun' is.  Personally, I like the negotiations and planning far more than throwing dice.  For me, the fun is at the negotiating table.  And if the GM has already determined that in one month we'll all be destitute and distilling our own urine for sustenance, that's as bad as the GM determining that a gun fight will end a specific way no matter what. 

As a GM, I want my players to engage the game, their characters and the adventure.  I'm trying to provide them a fun time.  For some players, a fun time means throwing characters into a meat grinder and seeing what comes out the other side.  For some players it is solving of a tough puzzle.  Others still it is about the role play and getting a chance to be something they are not.  If nobody is interested in the intrigue of the negotiations, skip it.  Guess what is fair, factor in their character's negotiation skill and move on. 

[raggedhalo]

So, you're saying you just go in blind and try to negotiate based on what the Johnson offers?

Nope.  You turn up, hear the initial pitch: "I want to hire you for some wetwork; the target is the CEO of a major megacorporation.  No more details until/unless you agree.  Fee is 50k, half up front.  You in?"

You say "50k?  To off the CEO of a major megacorporation?  Hell no!"

Also, the GM in your scenario is a dick.

[JustADude]

And when said Johnson turns out to be a free spirit and shrugs off the bullets and then claims your 'souls' for breach of contract before vanishing... what do you do then?

You go "Wow... what the fragin' hell was that?!" Because free spirits just AREN'T A TYPICAL SITUATION. The odds of any individual Johnson being one are less than you being hit by a stray round going to the Stuffer Shack for some malty beverages. The far-more-likely scenario is some asshole who has no clue what's involved in a run, thinks the players are idiots, is a nutjob, or some combination of the three.

Got anything more reasonable for an objection... or are you the kind of GM that likes to go "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" when the players decide to go off the rails, rather than adapting to the situation?

[CitizenJoe]

The Lowfyr Job Johnson just tried to get some runners to kill Lowfyr for like 50K, do you think he wouldn't be prepared for them to say no?  Did you think he wasn't EXPECTING them to say no?

I will admit that pulling that stunt in the first place is kind of a 'Bad GM' move.  But you do it ONCE... maybe not so extreme... but you do it once to make a point. 

As a Johnson, I would be wary of hiring a group of unknowns if they didn't ask questions.  If they aren't asking questions, there's a good chance that they have no intention of actually doing the job, just in it for the deposit.  I also wouldn't lead with my budget.  Now that's for a 'special order' type job.  'Commodity Jobs' are different.  Assassinations are a commodity job until you get VIP's.  There's a going rate and if the runners don't take the job, you can find someone else to do it.  Package delivery, generic mayhem, etc.  For the most part, these things don't take much planning or legwork.  You'll also find that some people specialize in commodity work.  Assassins, smugglers, gangers, etc. They work very much cheaper than a generalist, but they have a narrow focus of what they are good at.  The reason VIP assassinations are special order is because VIP's invariably have many layers of differing overlapping defenses.  You need a whole team to investigate the defenses and then create the opportunity to even attempt the assassination.  That goes back to my assertion that you don't lead with your budget. 

Let's say you, as a GM, have a certain idea about how the run could go down.  Let's say the Johnson is trying to get a sample of Laes.  That could involve a lot of research to find a source, then infiltration into the Tir, breaking into some facility, acquire a sample, then exfiltrate back out to safety.  You're looking at a month of planning and operations with bribes and transportation, blah blah blah.  A Johnson could expect a run like that to run a hundred thousand nuyen.  But when he puts the request on the table, the ex-Ghost elf runner offers up the Laes dart round he was planning on using if this meet went south.  2000 nuyen and the deal is done.  If the Johnson led with his budget, that could have been like 20-50K deposit.  Admittedly, that's an extreme case... one where the GM didn't look carefully at the character sheets... but in some situations, runners with specialties can do things cheaper than you're expecting.  If they are charging more, then you can always present your plan and offer less.

From a Lazy GM perspective you can work it another way.  Give them the basics of the run and let them do some planning and figuring.  Sit in on it.  Guess what... they just wrote the adventure for you.  And it is an adventure they want to do.  And they even did the math to figure out what is fair.  All you have to do is grumble a bit and sign the check.

[FastJack]

The odds ... are less than you being hit by a stray round going to the Stuffer Shack for some malty beverages.

That actually isn't that odd. Been happening almost weekly for 20+ in-universe years.

Quick-Start Rules (with Food Fight intro adventure)

[raggedhalo]

As a Johnson, I would be wary of hiring a group of unknowns if they didn't ask questions.

Asking questions that are directly relevant to the success or failure of the job is fair enough.  But a lot of the questions you list for the Ludivenko job are things that should come in the legwork phase; the Johnson is hiring the runners to solve these problems.

I think your notion that a narrowly-focused character would charge less than a generalist is fatally flawed.  Narrow focus means highly specialised, means highly skilled, means expensive.

From a Lazy GM perspective you can work it another way.  Give them the basics of the run and let them do some planning and figuring.  Sit in on it.  Guess what... they just wrote the adventure for you.  And it is an adventure they want to do.  And they even did the math to figure out what is fair.  All you have to do is grumble a bit and sign the check.

Wow, you should never play Houses of the Blooded or anything like that.  Co-creating the story alongside your players is the point in that neck of the woods.

[CitizenJoe]

I think your notion that a narrowly-focused character would charge less than a generalist is fatally flawed.  Narrow focus means highly specialised, means highly skilled, means expensive.

Actually, that is exactly wrong.  Narrow focus means that you are only skilled in one thing.  A generalist has to be paid for all of his skills, not just the specific one you need at this moment.  Likewise a generalist needs a vast array of tools that have upkeep.  People specialize because it keeps their costs down, not because they are better at some skill than a generalist.  Since their costs are lower, they can accept lower rates.  Since they can accept lower rates, they get more business and thus make more money by volume.  A generalist survives by either taking the micromanaging load off the shoulders of the client, i.e. general contractor or by synergizing his talents to produce something that specialists can't do, i.e. Vintage Car Restorer vs. Brake specialist.  A generalist typically needs at least a shop, often a whole facility while specialists can usually get by with a kit.

If a Johnson wants cheap (and this is typical of a Runner subcontracting set up), he gets several independents that he knows can do a specific portion of the job.  He then does all the planning and legwork and hands off the operation to the specialist team he put together.  If one guy doesn't want the job, fine, there's a dozen other specialists to take his place.  You put together a team of lowest bidders and hope to god they don't kill each other before the end of the mission. 

In broad strokes, runner teams are generalists in that they consist of a team of specialists.  That means they usually take on the micromanaging aspect of the mission, i.e. legwork and planning.  But it also means that you gotta hire the whole team rather than just a couple. 

That being said, there are specialist teams.  If they make more per run it is because of their reputation not their skill level.  But the rules of supply and demand are fierce.  If they specialize in a type of job that has lots of business, or is generally profitable, then they have to deal with a lot of competition.  If they have a smaller niche, there's less business. 

A generalist team can survive by offering services the specialists can't and then servicing and supporting specialist teams in their down time.  Maybe the rigger supports the local go-gang by fixing their bikes for parts and favors.  Maybe the mage does warding for local businesses.  The sammies might take up some repo work or bounty hunting.  The decker might track down paying gigs.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I think your notion that a narrowly-focused character would charge less than a generalist is fatally flawed.  Narrow focus means highly specialised, means highly skilled, means expensive.

Actually, that is exactly wrong.  Narrow focus means that you are only skilled in one thing.  A generalist has to be paid for all of his skills, not just the specific one you need at this moment. 

... clearly you have no real-world experience.  A generalist always gets shafted when it comes to money; a specialist can always charge through the nose for their specialty.  Doesn't even matter if the generalist is more intelligent, more formally educated, and able to bring their skill in the specialty up to the level of the specialist's in a matter of mere weeks; when it comes to the moment of the job offer, the specialist always gets more -- at least 3%, often 5%, sometimes 10%.  I speak from experience.

People specialize because they can achieve a higher level of competency in a shorter period of time; to use your example, a guy who studies brakes and only brakes is going to be able to start doing pretty good brake jobs in a couple weeks, and really great break jobs in six or eight months.  In a year or two, if that's all he does, he might be able to get a job at a higher-profile place -- or with some luck and good contacts, with some very significant people.  (Break mechanic for a racing team, perhaps?)

In six or eight months, the generalist who's been studying how to fix all aspects of a car might be able to start working.  In six or eight years he may be competent enough in everything to get paid to restore vintage cars.  In three decades, people will come to him to restore their precious vehicle because he's gotten really good and is one of the best in the business -- but unless it's on a vintage car, they'd probably go to Brake Guy for his specialty.  This is why you have teams.

In any case.

Thank you, CitizenJoe, for some interesting points of view on alternate methods of running the game.  While it doesn't link up to how the game is presented, in either its pure fiction or its published scenarios, it would be very interesting to watch your ideas being used in a convention.

[Zilfer]

I'm going to have to agree with Wyrm that Generalists are paid "less" because they aren't as highly trained in all areas.


If you hire a specialized assassin that is known for being descreet you pay them more, and a general assassin who just get's the job done.

Just like me in my job, I know more about computers than most of the other receptionist and i was hired here as the first level IT support, so computer problems go to me because i went to school for Information Technology. I get paid more for being specialized in that area compared to the rest of the receptionists here.


Anyways, i'm glad this topic has turned out a bit more gave me a few more things to go off of.

What i'm more curious about still but i know you can't really judge unless i give you examples of the missions i've written up if they are accurate or not. xD

[CanRay]

I'm going to have to agree with Wyrm that Generalists are paid "less" because they aren't as highly trained in all areas.

But they make it up in volume.

"We need a Shooter."  "Shadowrunner Bob."
"We need a Rigger."  "Shadowrunner Bob."
"We need a Medic."  "Shadowrunner Bob."
"We need a Scout."  "Shadowrunner Bob."
"We need a Heavy Weapons Troll."  "Trogdor, but he only works when we bring along Shadowrunner Bob."

[CitizenJoe]

In order to achieve result A, you need someone with skill B.  A skill B+1 person could do it, but he also costs more.  What I'm saying is that the generalist with skill B and Skill C and Skill D costs more than a specialist with skill B.  What you're saying is that the specialist with skill B gets more money than a generalist with skill B-2, C-2, D-2.  Yes, you are correct, but you're comparing apples to a fruit basket.  Now if you put a specialist at B+4 and a generalist at B, C, D, but the job only calls for B, then the Specialist will probably get it but only if he accepts payment level B.

[JustADude]

In order to achieve result A, you need someone with skill B.  A skill B+1 person could do it, but he also costs more.  What I'm saying is that the generalist with skill B and Skill C and Skill D costs more than a specialist with skill B.  What you're saying is that the specialist with skill B gets more money than a generalist with skill B-2, C-2, D-2.  Yes, you are correct, but you're comparing apples to a fruit basket.  Now if you put a specialist at B+4 and a generalist at B, C, D, but the job only calls for B, then the Specialist will probably get it but only if he accepts payment level B.

Not exactly correct;

If a job requires "Skill B", as you put it, and the guy has "Skill B+4", then what the fuck is he doing taking "Skill B" jobs? He's going to be raking in way more money doing "Skill B+4" jobs and leave the "Skill B" jobs to some schmuck who can't handle the big-leagues.

He'd only ever take the "Skill B" job if there was nothing better open but, if he had to, he'd very much be willing to take "Skill B" pay, because, relative to what he's capable of, the job is a cakewalk.