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CultureGoblin

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« on: <06-08-13/1244:48> »
WARNING: Long story. If TL;DR, skip to bottom.

Me and my players are simple folk. Since 2007, we have lived off of the fat of D&D 3.5, occasionally feeling the need to access the Complete book set and reluctant to learn new systems. We’ve been the same community of 4 players for a long time. Very simply, it's difficult and time consuming to learn new systems, and it's rare that we see another system that actually looks interesting to us.

We have always played online, usually using Fantasy Grounds, which is a fairly expensive, but very useful tabletop sim. It came preloaded with our system of preference, which was just bubbles for us. As I moved to college, Fantasy Grounds' unique form of networking was not pleased that I was no longer in control of my ports, so I couldn’t use it anymore.

I've never been quite pleased with how D&D structured things and never went to their pre-made worlds. I always wanted to make my own.

Then, I found Shadowrun. A beautiful blue jewel in the sky had appeared, and I had ventured to it. I explored its valleys and mountains with eagerness. Finally, a stomping ground I enjoyed. There was corporate intrigue--which I actually understood, being a Biz major--there were mysterious magic, there were ubiquitous and often frightening technological developments. The idea of someone hacking into my fridge and ordering brussel sprouts instead of hot wings sent a chill down my spine. I had to learn more.

My players were originally preparing for an epic level campaign, but we found that balance in D&D seems to become more of a joke than anything else by level 21--there is literally no reason to play a Fighter over a Wizard. Some classes aren't even as good at their specialization as other generalists. After getting fed up with close to 60% of the flashy, intimidating looking classes we found being unusable or useless in the face of a regular old wizard or cleric, and finding that playing a dragon at level 21 is only slightly better than playing an NPC class (yes, *dragons* are the most underpowered player option we found. In a game called Dungeons and Dragons.)

It's been a fairly frustrating experience to start with, but the depth that the game promises is just too tantalizing to overlook. The idea of players acting on multiple planes appealed to me: this way, no one class be able to do everything that everyone else could, but better. (In theory anyway.)

I had to abort our first attempt at a mission, which went horribly because we were suddenly faced with our own, doe-eyed ignorance as I was simultaneously attacked by a military-grade migraine. We managed to get the meeting with Mr. Johnson done and do the Legwork for our next mission (improperly), but after looking at the screen caused banshee screams to activate in my temples, I had to surrender and go to bed.

So it's another week until everyone's schedules will align and we'll be able to meet again, and I want our next session to go smoother. I'm looking for some wise old GMs (or trees, if available) to share their wisdom on Shadowrun 4e. First, I'm not going to switch to a new edition. One of my players (Codename "Glaze") is on the edge of his patience for learning systems and I'd rather not slap any more on him.

Here's my players, with names changed to protect the innocent. We also found some better-built (supposedly) pre-made characters that we're using for the moment. They're linked next to the players that use them. Josh, however, is just using the standard hacker from the optimized SR4 rulebook.

Glaze: Magical Rocker

Glaze is a fantasy fan, and a furry. He's happiest when there's four damn elements, they're in crystals, and he's a talking wolf-man with simultaneous animal power and control of his faculties. He's extremely picky about playing wolf characters though, and when he wants to play them, the whole value of the system hinges on that desire. He said he didn't think he liked Shadowrun because his specific brand of werewolf was not available in the three different ways you could be wolf-esque or, y’know, an actual werewolf, we found in a cursory glance.

He thinks magic is more interesting than technology 100% of the time and is immune to any arguments to sway him otherwise. (Believe me, we've tried for close to 8 years.)

Getting Glaze to play Shadowrun was possible, but difficult. He's pretty much always going to play a mage/adept/etc. with no cyber-implants of any kind. He'll play it, but only in a very specific way. Luckily, the game seems to be alright with that. So far, anyways.

Kab: Customized Technomancer (he’s the only guy who decided to make his character. It’s on Chummer so if you want a copy make sure you have that program.)

Kab has thus far been the most enthusiastic and cooperative. He understands the rules better than anyone else (even me; I know, shame shame, but he's a goddamn sponge) and actively tries to prevent cheesing. If he thinks he has too much money, he'll throw it away. If he thinks his stats are too high, he'll lower them himself.

He's big on both sci-fi and fantasy, so he's made a technomancer who does everything via drones. He's loving the system and works pretty hard to be the glue that keeps players together.

Josh: Hacker (SR4 Sample)

Josh is pretty psyched for the game and plans to make a hacker. He's still very fuzzy on rules as he hasn't had much time to go over the rulebook. He's hoping to learn more from the pre-set mission we'll run. He's short on time and a bit slow to pick up the rules, but he's patient and enthusiastic.

--

Here’s my main troubles & questions:
1.   I’m out of my element several times over. New system, new medium (roll20.net, which we’re using minimalistically), we’re using voice instead of typing IC; it’s a lot of stuff put together. One thing I could really use would be a GM "Cheat sheet" which would give how-tos on very common rolls, things I have to set up (forgot to give Contacts stats), and so on. I might make it myself if I can't find anything better online.

2.   Moderately afraid Glaze might leave in a huff. The other two may not play without him.

3.   Worried players will find ambushes/traps “unfair” because I forgot to provide certain information. I’m not used to intrigue style games and so it’s easy for me to give too little or too much information. This is my big fear with this game; I have to control information very carefully and I’m not used to that. (They already know that the music on the disc was JetBlack; I thought a certain part of the book was a “read out loud” bit, but it was actually GM notes.) I’m hoping my players will react positively but that’s just hope atm. How do you get the right amount of info to your players?

4.   In the long term I plan to make my own adventures. All this talk of “seasons” makes me wonder if I’d be missing out on something big and blocking my player’s access to it. We don’t plan to go to cons or anything like that, so is there any reason to pay attention to that stuff?

5.   Would a campaign set entirely in space utterly fail? Are there pre-sets that are mostly or entirely in space?
« Last Edit: <06-08-13/1437:41> by CultureGoblin »

Aaron

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« Reply #1 on: <06-08-13/1512:37> »
If you're playing SR4, there are some cheat sheets on my Shadowrun Resources page that you're welcome to use.


MaxKojote

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« Reply #2 on: <06-08-13/1521:05> »
With Glaze, a couple of the options in Runner's Companion (Changelings at Surge III, Loup-Garou Infected, Wolf Shapeshifters) could help out with character creation. Given I'm a furry myself, I can be a bit like that with character creation, but there are ways to go about it. They link in with the magic attribute that he's fond of as well (at least the second two do), so it works out.
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« Reply #3 on: <06-09-13/0433:54> »
****Warning Drunken posting.... So I will clean it up later, but I will try to remain coherent*****

As to cheat sheets... you have two options, the first is buy the Runner's Toolkit. It has all the cheat sheet you could ever need, as well as 2 great, small books and a GM screen for those hard to track modifiers. the First book in the toolkit is "anatomy of a shadowrun" and is set out like a story on one half of the page, and on the other half are all the rolls that are going on in the descriptor. It gives you are great idea of how the game actually runs VS what you are reading and is worth a gander. The second book is "adventures and Contacts" and is filled with adventure ideas and sample contacts (with write ups, stats, skills, and equipment) Again, its a good book that I use all the time (mostly cause I am too lazy to do that work myself for the mundane NPCs)

OR

Use Aaron's cheat sheets! They are GREAT (in fact I think they are the ones used in runners tool kit! just not as fancy boarders and pictures) I was having trouble with my players and the transition to 4e and Aaron's cheat sheets really helped them out a lot.

As Max mentioned, the Runner Companion has several "races" and archtypes that might fit Glaze's furry compulsion... but be warned, I personally hate them and that book for the Snowflakeism it generates (but then again you already seem to have that problem and are handling it... so, meh)


I can already tell you are playing "On the Run" :P Not my favorite adventure, Yes I know it's supposed to be a starter adventure but IMHO it takes to many things for granted that new players and GMs to SR would over look. So, I would use it with your players as an "intro" only. Let them know they are running this adventure just to see how things works and get an handle around the game. Then after you are done, you can all discuss the things they liked and hated about the adventure, how the rules seemed to work and other issues. And, if they choose they can make new characters and start off fresh in your games with a better Idea of what they want to play...

No offense to Bull or the writers of the Missions, but I don't really care for many of them. I understand that they have to keep things at a certain baseline in order to hit the most amount of interest in the most amount of players, but I find they swing from either WAAY to easy for my group, or WAAY to hard. The only thing about he missions is that there is often some meta-plot hooks and happenings that goes on in the missions that can be hard to follow if you don't at least read them. (but seeing as how you are coming in or the last gasps of 4e... missing some of the meta-plots is not a horrible thing, your games will just go "off-canon" and there is nothing wrong with that either.)

As to the flow of info, this ties back into pre-made adventures.... its hard to know what to divulge and what not to... or how to! (and thus why I don't play them much) That said, info in Shadowrun is the life blood of the Runners. Too much info know, they know to much to live. Too little info, they get turned into a fine red paste... its up the players to make that judgement call on when and IF they have enough info. And they should be pumping their contacts for everything they can find out, all the time!

IMO, creating your own adventures is the way to go. Yes, it takes more time, and has the chance of going astray, but, you KNOW your players. You know what they like and what they hate, you know what they can do (both the player and the character) and what they can't. So you work with what you got, and you tailor your missions to the group for the first little while... then you slowly branch out into other areas as they become more comfortable with the game.
    Are the Combat monsters at heart? Then you run Protection, escort, Slash and burn, Sabotage, intimidation, and prey and spray missions.... for a little while... then you slowly bring in the elements of infiltration, Data snatching, back-stabbing and double crossing... just to wet their toes... when you make your own Campaign, that is where the fun starts :P

A campaign in Space..... well you have to remember, this isn't Star Trek or Star Wars. Space is still a vast frontier and space travel isn't THAT advanced at all. While there are a number of orbital stations and even a vacation resort in Space... not to mention a colony on Mars (IF it hasn't had an "accident") getting into Space is still a costly event of the rich. then there are the rules aspect of it. Space causes Awakened people to... well... "go insane" or "die in a horrible, messy way"... and that is being polite. There is no Mana in space (since mana is generated by living things, and it takes a LOT of living things to generate even a weak, stable mana field) those who are awakened suffer horribly. Now, Mages, shamans, and other "singular natured" awaken can simply choose to not cast spells or astral Perceive and that stops the blood running out of the ears, nose, and eyes.... but it also limits them in a big way as for a shaman/mage magic is their #1 thing.. and it's hard to develop other skills and stay on top of your magic. For the Dual natured (ghouls, Vamps, shapechangers, etc) A trip to space is a death sentence. So be nice and put them into the body bag before they go up the pipe (just tell them its a new fangled space suit!) and save the janitors the trouble of trying to clean up all that blood, and organic mater in 0 Gs. Ok? thanks.

any more questions? ask away aside from a few asshats on here, we are a friendly bunch! (even when Sober!)
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I_V_Saur

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« Reply #4 on: <06-09-13/1100:39> »
Good resources have already been suggested. I actually send Anatomy of a Shadowrun as a primer to new players, it's just that effective.

4ed isn't kind to werewolves. There are options, but it's likely that, if Loup-Garou doesn't fit, then the other options are even further away. I'd nudge him to try something new - werewolves, if they do appear, are likely to be a 5ed thing, which you can port over. While you wait for that, the current options are likely to dissapoint. It's more steampunk than fantasy.

4ed also hates Hackers. Matrix rules are a massive headache. They're a mixture of the exacting and yet limitless nature of technology, and the vague blanket numerology of an easy-access game. But at least he's not a Technomancer - combining Matrix rules, with the formula layout of Magic, is a migraine waiting to happen.

My suggestion?

Go for a more dramatic manner of play. Reduce the rolls, so that for the entirety of hacking, they make that one roll, and then launch into description. Give leeway for extra creative responses, and lean towards success if they roleplay the situation well. Reduce the Roll play, ham up the Role play, and have a fast-paced game where combat ends in about five rolls, with one side dead.

Don't be afraid to fudge the dice.

You can perfect your understanding of the system as you go. But if their first impression of the system is that it's boring, you don't get a second shot. If they found it too action-ey, you can add in more interpersonal drama. Too dangerous, key back the fights a bit. Too easy, you tweak the difficulty so they start scraping by.

Expect to have to fine-tune your GMing for this system, and get comfortable with the general idea of winging it. So long as they have fun, do you really need dice?

Mystalya

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« Reply #5 on: <06-10-13/0328:21> »
I think something that is very important for new GM's and players of Shadowrun alike to remember is you really aren't the Hero of Prophecy in this game.

There probably won't be songs sung of you in taverns, no people probably haven't heard of you and you can't get away with much. You're a slightly above average nobody in a dystopian hellhole trying to survive.

If this concept is disagreeable to them then I don't know if Shadowrun is their cup of tea w/o significant house-ruling.

That being said, when I first got into the game someone showed me this video and it was awesome and helped me a lot with the concept of the world. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q43h1zHpjqc

I think Glaze will warm up to implants after a few games. I hated them at first too then I realized the benefits of combining them with adept magic cannot be denied. It's completely possible for him to play as a wolf-guy.  Truth be told my first character had fox ears. :P  The GM let it slide with the "Unusual Hair" negative metagenic because he knew it would make it more fun for me. Letting simple and small things like that go make it a lot easier and more fun for players to learn the complicated core mechanics rather than grinding them on small, petty details. (Not furry - I just think the ears are cute)

Kab sounds like an awesome guy and someone I'd like to play with. Just make sure he's not unnecessarily punishing himself because he feels like he has an advantage because he knows the rules.

Josh picked a complicated archetype to start with but if he's patient and reads the rules he'll pick it up in no time.

I find the best campaigns are the ones that are totally the GM's brainchild :)  The most important thing to remember is you're sitting down with a group of friends playing a new game. There's no shame in needing time to learn it and there is no rush. It can be frustrating but at the end of the day you're there to have fun so as long as you do it was a good game. :)
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Nobody

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« Reply #6 on: <06-10-13/0339:48> »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q43h1zHpjqc



Hell yeah Glitch Mob. Whenever anybody asks me what Shadowrun's like, I just put that video on.


Nal0n

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« Reply #7 on: <06-10-13/1418:16> »
Concerning Glaze:
The most playable "wolf-furry" type would be a Wolf-Shifter Adept imho (personally I like Pistoleros best, ymmv).
If you need a deeper understanding how that might work out in SR there are two novles I like a lot:
"Wolf and Raven" by Michael Stackpole (Classic SR Novel #32)
"The Forever Drug" ny Lisa Smedman (Classic SR Novel #37)

Both are set in the 2050's so more SR3'ish, but good reads nonetheless ... and Wolf Shifters (kinda) as protagonist in both of them.

For comparison to real in game Shifters "The Forever Drug" would possibly prove more useful, as it digs deeper into the whole "deep inside Shifters are still animals" thing.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #8 on: <06-10-13/1431:39> »
WARNING: Long story. If TL;DR, skip to bottom.

Me and my players are simple folk. Since 2007, we have lived off of the fat of D&D 3.5, occasionally feeling the need to access the Complete book set and reluctant to learn new systems. We’ve been the same community of 4 players for a long time. Very simply, it's difficult and time consuming to learn new systems, and it's rare that we see another system that actually looks interesting to us.

We have always played online, usually using Fantasy Grounds, which is a fairly expensive, but very useful tabletop sim. It came preloaded with our system of preference, which was just bubbles for us. As I moved to college, Fantasy Grounds' unique form of networking was not pleased that I was no longer in control of my ports, so I couldn’t use it anymore.

I've never been quite pleased with how D&D structured things and never went to their pre-made worlds. I always wanted to make my own.

Then, I found Shadowrun. A beautiful blue jewel in the sky had appeared, and I had ventured to it. I explored its valleys and mountains with eagerness. Finally, a stomping ground I enjoyed. There was corporate intrigue--which I actually understood, being a Biz major--there were mysterious magic, there were ubiquitous and often frightening technological developments. The idea of someone hacking into my fridge and ordering brussel sprouts instead of hot wings sent a chill down my spine. I had to learn more.

My players were originally preparing for an epic level campaign, but we found that balance in D&D seems to become more of a joke than anything else by level 21--there is literally no reason to play a Fighter over a Wizard. Some classes aren't even as good at their specialization as other generalists. After getting fed up with close to 60% of the flashy, intimidating looking classes we found being unusable or useless in the face of a regular old wizard or cleric, and finding that playing a dragon at level 21 is only slightly better than playing an NPC class (yes, *dragons* are the most underpowered player option we found. In a game called Dungeons and Dragons.)

It's been a fairly frustrating experience to start with, but the depth that the game promises is just too tantalizing to overlook. The idea of players acting on multiple planes appealed to me: this way, no one class be able to do everything that everyone else could, but better. (In theory anyway.)

I had to abort our first attempt at a mission, which went horribly because we were suddenly faced with our own, doe-eyed ignorance as I was simultaneously attacked by a military-grade migraine. We managed to get the meeting with Mr. Johnson done and do the Legwork for our next mission (improperly), but after looking at the screen caused banshee screams to activate in my temples, I had to surrender and go to bed.

So it's another week until everyone's schedules will align and we'll be able to meet again, and I want our next session to go smoother. I'm looking for some wise old GMs (or trees, if available) to share their wisdom on Shadowrun 4e. First, I'm not going to switch to a new edition. One of my players (Codename "Glaze") is on the edge of his patience for learning systems and I'd rather not slap any more on him.

Here's my players, with names changed to protect the innocent. We also found some better-built (supposedly) pre-made characters that we're using for the moment. They're linked next to the players that use them. Josh, however, is just using the standard hacker from the optimized SR4 rulebook.

Glaze: Magical Rocker

Glaze is a fantasy fan, and a furry. He's happiest when there's four damn elements, they're in crystals, and he's a talking wolf-man with simultaneous animal power and control of his faculties. He's extremely picky about playing wolf characters though, and when he wants to play them, the whole value of the system hinges on that desire. He said he didn't think he liked Shadowrun because his specific brand of werewolf was not available in the three different ways you could be wolf-esque or, y’know, an actual werewolf, we found in a cursory glance.

He thinks magic is more interesting than technology 100% of the time and is immune to any arguments to sway him otherwise. (Believe me, we've tried for close to 8 years.)

Getting Glaze to play Shadowrun was possible, but difficult. He's pretty much always going to play a mage/adept/etc. with no cyber-implants of any kind. He'll play it, but only in a very specific way. Luckily, the game seems to be alright with that. So far, anyways.

Kab: Customized Technomancer (he’s the only guy who decided to make his character. It’s on Chummer so if you want a copy make sure you have that program.)

Kab has thus far been the most enthusiastic and cooperative. He understands the rules better than anyone else (even me; I know, shame shame, but he's a goddamn sponge) and actively tries to prevent cheesing. If he thinks he has too much money, he'll throw it away. If he thinks his stats are too high, he'll lower them himself.

He's big on both sci-fi and fantasy, so he's made a technomancer who does everything via drones. He's loving the system and works pretty hard to be the glue that keeps players together.

Josh: Hacker (SR4 Sample)

Josh is pretty psyched for the game and plans to make a hacker. He's still very fuzzy on rules as he hasn't had much time to go over the rulebook. He's hoping to learn more from the pre-set mission we'll run. He's short on time and a bit slow to pick up the rules, but he's patient and enthusiastic.

--

Here’s my main troubles & questions:
1.   I’m out of my element several times over. New system, new medium (roll20.net, which we’re using minimalistically), we’re using voice instead of typing IC; it’s a lot of stuff put together. One thing I could really use would be a GM "Cheat sheet" which would give how-tos on very common rolls, things I have to set up (forgot to give Contacts stats), and so on. I might make it myself if I can't find anything better online.

2.   Moderately afraid Glaze might leave in a huff. The other two may not play without him.

3.   Worried players will find ambushes/traps “unfair” because I forgot to provide certain information. I’m not used to intrigue style games and so it’s easy for me to give too little or too much information. This is my big fear with this game; I have to control information very carefully and I’m not used to that. (They already know that the music on the disc was JetBlack; I thought a certain part of the book was a “read out loud” bit, but it was actually GM notes.) I’m hoping my players will react positively but that’s just hope atm. How do you get the right amount of info to your players?

4.   In the long term I plan to make my own adventures. All this talk of “seasons” makes me wonder if I’d be missing out on something big and blocking my player’s access to it. We don’t plan to go to cons or anything like that, so is there any reason to pay attention to that stuff?

5.   Would a campaign set entirely in space utterly fail? Are there pre-sets that are mostly or entirely in space?

Modules or 'adventures' you make yourself, go either way. It's just taste.

Don't mess with space with Awakened on the team. Going into space would render their main abilities almost completely worthless.

For the love of all that is holy, do NOT restrict access to any published books. This is by FAR the single worst mistake any GM can ever make. There is absolutely no good reason for it. Some will claim that it "keeps things simple", but no, it doesn't. All it does is 'put off' learning the rules in those books making it harder to grasp them later.
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GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #9 on: <06-11-13/0349:42> »
Quote
3.   Worried players will find ambushes/traps “unfair” because I forgot to provide certain information. I’m not used to intrigue style games and so it’s easy for me to give too little or too much information. This is my big fear with this game; I have to control information very carefully and I’m not used to that. (They already know that the music on the disc was JetBlack; I thought a certain part of the book was a “read out loud” bit, but it was actually GM notes.) I’m hoping my players will react positively but that’s just hope atm. How do you get the right amount of info to your players?
It's a good idea to error well on the side of giving too much info, especially at first. One of the main things you need to know is that this is a deadly game system for players. Most characters can't take much damage and at the same time often can inflict quite a bit. i.e. glass cannons. Your players walking into a building full of waiting enemies or being caught out in the open by a sniper are in huge danger. So, give away the first few ambushes at least, until you get a bit of a handle on the wounds system and what kind of damage various weapons and spells inflict. Make use of tension. Make them think they failed to spot the ambush, but then give them initiative anyway.

The same thing applies to information about the shadowrun. When starting out have the Mr. Johnson give hints and even plans out to help them. This helps them learn how to plan and the usual classic cons shadowrunners use to gain entry to sites. i.e. the fake fire drill and the fake janitorial/maintenance crew.