[Bradd]

Is the -6 Blind Fire penalty added to environmental visibility modifiers, or does it override visibility? I've been going back and forth over this. On one hand, it seems to me that invisibility is pointless against a blind man. Therefore, you really shouldn't add -6 Blind Fire to -6 Full Darkness/Thermal Smoke. Also, a -12 dice pool modifier is crazy hard. I realize that this is literally a shot in the dark, but I think it's excessive to make it a Long Shot test even for the most skilled marksmen.

On the other hand, it makes some sense for environmental conditions to complicate things. It's one thing if you're shooting at an invisible target in a brightly lit room, where you can clearly see obstacles and maybe even clues of the target's presence. It's another thing to try it in a place with shifting shadows or fog. So I could see adding -6 Blind Fire to -2 Partial Light, although the total penalty still seems overly harsh.

Is there a consensus on this?

[FastJack]

Blind Fire is when you take the gun and spray an indiscriminate area with bullets without care to what you hit. So I don't think visibility would be an option since you're not aiming at anything.

[Welshman]

Blind Fire is when you take the gun and spray an indiscriminate area with bullets without care to what you hit. So I don't think visibility would be an option since you're not aiming at anything.

I would concur with FJ on this. In all other game systems that I've seen with environmental and blind fire rules, that's how it works. Think of the classic geek with a gun movie scene. He holds it over his head and shoots over the desk he's cowering behind, all the while screaming intelligibly.

[Angelone]

Blind fire is spraying and praying, you aren't aiming at anything you are just putting rounds downrange. I wouldn't stack it with any visibility modifiers because the target cannot be seen so they shouldn't come into play. I would however add modifiers for cover if they applied.

[Bradd]

Thanks for the input! Good explanation.

I also like the fact that this makes blind fire a Long Shot test for casual fighters, but professionals with >6 dice can make educated guesses.

[Mäx]

Yeah, adding visibility modifiers on top of blind fire make no sense as shooting your eyes closed is blind fire.
The room being dark on top of me having my eyes closed shouldn't have any additional penalty.

[Bradd]

Well, there is a difference between not being able to see your target, and not being able to see anything. I could see the latter making things more difficult for you, but maybe it's not worth the game complexity.

[FastJack]

But blind fire is not about you not seeing the target. You already don't see the target, so you're firing into a random space and hoping he's there. Whether there's fog/darkness/invisibility won't make any difference to where you're shooting.

[Longshot23]

Thanks for the input! Good explanation.

I also like the fact that this makes blind fire a Long Shot test for casual fighters, but professionals with >6 dice can make educated guesses.

Did someone call? 

[Mäx]

Well, there is a difference between not being able to see your target, and not being able to see anything. I could see the latter making things more difficult for you, but maybe it's not worth the game complexity.

If i close my eyes i allready don't see anything whether the room is pitch black or not or whether or not its filled with smoke.

[Bradd]

Blind Fire isn't just about closing your eyes, though. If I'm shooting at somebody in a tent, that's harder if I have a hard time seeing the tent. But like I said, it's probably not worth worrying about.

[Medicineman]

Blind Fire isn't just about closing your eyes, though. 

  
Its exactly that.
I close my Eyes I'm blind.
Shooting with your Eyes closed is Blind Fire
(and its the biggest Negative Modifier. Closing Your Eyes ,standing on 1 Leg,singing a Lullaby and shooting over your Back....its -6....Oh and while shooting blind You use INT instead of AGI)

with a blind Dance
Medicineman

[Welshman]

Blind Fire isn't just about closing your eyes, though. If I'm shooting at somebody in a tent, that's harder if I have a hard time seeing the tent. But like I said, it's probably not worth worrying about.

Bradd does raise a good point, but as he says you are getting to a whole otherblayer of complexity then.

[Usda Beph]

I guess the question how to define "blind fire" does it mean unable to see at all or does it mean unable to see the target due to interviening terrain, weather or the like.

If one can see but has no confirmation of the target (personally or mechanically) are they blind? Shooting around a corner without looking is firing blind. fireing into a cloud of smoke also firing blind (no LOS). These are all firing blind to me *shrug*

[Angelone]

Shooting around a corner is one example, some others are shooting through walls, doors, and at invisible targets.