[Nomad Zophiel]

Working on a Physical Adept and I wanted to get some opinions on Nerve Strike. It seems like an insanely useful power since it can paralyze someone for at least 20 rounds with 4 net hits total over multiple attacks (give or take).

Question 1: Can it be combined with Distance Strike? Neither power is especially explicit on this. Sitatnce strike "transmits" an attack and may be combined with killing hands but not elemental strike. Nerve strike says that after activating the power, the adept makes a "normal" melee attack. Personally, it seems like that interaction can be read either way.

Question 2: If a nerve strike targeting reaction gets three net successes against someone with 1 Reaction (presumably due to previous hits), is he reduced to 0 and paralyzed for 1 minute or reduces to -2 and paralyzed for 3 minutes?

I'm fairly sure both of these wind up being GM's call type of things but I'm curios to see everyone's opinion.

[Walks Through Walls]

I wouldn't allow a distance strike nerve strike combination in my game. It becomes too powerful and the idea of nerve strike is that you are hitting the nerve and causing paralysis so I can't see that working from a distance.

On the second point I can't see reducing an attribute below zero, but in reality it won't much matter if the opponent is out for 1 minute or 3 since either one is an eternity in combat turns. If you want him dead at that point he is. If you leave him and move on your long gone by the time he recovers

[Nomad Zophiel]

I wouldn't allow a distance strike nerve strike combination in my game. It becomes too powerful and the idea of nerve strike is that you are hitting the nerve and causing paralysis so I can't see that working from a distance.

From a game balance perspective, my first thought was that they shouldn't combine, either. On the other hand, assuming three IPs, Joe Adept is attacking with a maximum of 12 dice (if you pay 25 BP for Agility and take your one starting level 6 skill in Unarmed Combat). Jane Street Sam, also with three IP, is potentially defending with quite a few more. To take the sample character from 4A, she's defending at 13 without being particularly specialized. It takes a total of four net successes to drop Jane completely. Even worse, her own "unarmed" attacks come with superhuman strength and a spur behind them. With an average of two hits on damage resistance (12 dice of body+armor), Joe is taking 5P per hit after (impact) armor. So even replacing Nerve Strike with direct combat boosters, your specialized unarmed Adept looks to me like so much meat against a Sammie. I guess it pays to pack a sword.

Unfortunately, the other side is true, too. Joe Adept with his two IP, Nerve Strike and Distance Strike is going to flatten Jane pretty quick, especially if he spends edge. Her options are basically full defense or paralysis until that third IP that Joe can't afford anymore, when she can open up.. So in the sense of a starting Adept against a similar starting character, neither option is balanced.

Sure there are options to uneven the odds but they work just as well for the Sammie as they do for the Adept.

On the idea of phantom negative stats to prolong knockout: its not so much a matter of in your face combat as sneaky ninjaness. If Joe can paralyze Jane and keep her knocked out for a long time, then he can stuff her in a closet somewhere and carry on without necessarily alerting anyone. Of course I suppose once she is paralyzed, you could just club her in the head repeatedly, feed her laes or narcojet or spray paint her cybereyes black.

[Bradd]

Don't forget that you can get another +2 from specialization, +3 from Improved Ability, and +1 from Aptitude if you're really looking to stretch your attack pool. Non-Awakened enemies can match some but not all of that.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Distance strike works just fine, and is not overpowered.  Some limitations have already been mentioned, but it should be stated that Distance Strike has a range of the adept's Magic rating in meters.  Which is a maximum of 12 meters for a fully initiated adept.

Given that that is well within the range of every other ranged weapon in the game, and that cover and visibility modifiers and everything else that affects ranged attacks affects distance strike, I don't see this as being terribly unbalanced.  In fact, given the cost to have both abilities (DS=2, NS=1), having that power as a means of levelling the playing field in close quarters would be important.

And don't forget that a mundane street sammie can easily have an Agility or Reaction in the 9+ range.  The adept will need to smack him around quite a bit.  I see it being easier to just kill the guy or stun him down.  Nerve Strike looks better as a "Let's take him alive" kind of ability.

[Nomad Zophiel]

@Brad - The trick with that is that after burning off 3.5 points for extra initiative passes and Nerve Strike, you're looking at 1.5-2.5 tops. Granted, that's 3 for Unarmed and maybe 1 for agility, so not so bad. Still have to get that fist through Jane's armor, though.

@Gun Nut - Distance Strike is fine on its own. Combined with Nerve Strike (which was the original thought), its lethal. An unarmed strike against an armored opponent is only going to do so much damage, even if they don't get active defense (which is the real bonus of Distance Strike). Its a neat trick if you're striking from hiding or trying to duck a gun. Nerve+Distance is a one or two shot takedown. Average 2-3 hits per strike will drop one attribute to zero in two strikes. Since its based on net hits, there's no defense against it as a ranged attack except cover and full dodge. That does raise an interesting point, though: Presumably cyberlimb bonuses would not count towards figuring out if Jane is paralyzed but Wired Reflexes probably should.

[The_Gun_Nut]

What sammies have you been running with?  And why were they standing out in the open and not dodging?

The limit on range of Magic attribute in meters means that, yes the adept is absolutely deadly in close combat, like inside a building or short hallway.  But anything outside of that means the adept is just as vulnerable to firearms as the rest of us.  And his big one trick is useless until he closes the gap.  And he still has only a few IP's to do his job, likely fewer than the street sam or a slower initiative.  Against low level corp goons?  Sure, he's devastating.  Against a tricked out sammie (even "just" a starting sammie) he's going to have a lot more problems.

He spent a lot of points on being a close combat nightmare.  He should reap the benefits, and hindrances, of that choice.

[FoxBoy]

If a recent ruling by my GM has anything to do with it... something that should be considered is that while the body is paralyzed, that isn't necessarily true for the mind. A mage can still do the number on ya, even while paralyzed, and a rigger whose in VR probably won't be impeded at all. A hacker? well, your commlink and your teams cyberware may still be his, even as you knock his body down.

[Nomad Zophiel]

What sammies have you been running with?  And why were they standing out in the open and not dodging?

Providing an example. If the roles were reversed, the Sammie could hide and/or dodge, too. So that evens out.

The limit on range of Magic attribute in meters means that, yes the adept is absolutely deadly in close combat, like inside a building or short hallway.  But anything outside of that means the adept is just as vulnerable to firearms as the rest of us.  And his big one trick is useless until he closes the gap.  And he still has only a few IP's to do his job, likely fewer than the street sam or a slower initiative.  Against low level corp goons?  Sure, he's devastating.  Against a tricked out sammie (even "just" a starting sammie) he's going to have a lot more problems.

He spent a lot of points on being a close combat nightmare.  He should reap the benefits, and hindrances, of that choice.

And this is kind of what I'm wondering about. An Adept can indeed be deadly close up, or even as a gunslinger but a Sammie on the same BP seems to me to be better at whatever the Adept is specialized in AND whatever he's not AND faster (ie more IP). The Sammie's only drawback in comparison is that cyberwear is open to a few specific, difficult, rare attacks. . .and an EMP grenade.

[Nomad Zophiel]

What sammies have you been running with?  And why were they standing out in the open and not dodging?

Providing an example. Both sides of this theoretical matchup can take cover, but its just as easy for the example to not account for it.

The limit on range of Magic attribute in meters means that, yes the adept is absolutely deadly in close combat, like inside a building or short hallway.  But anything outside of that means the adept is just as vulnerable to firearms as the rest of us.  And his big one trick is useless until he closes the gap.  And he still has only a few IP's to do his job, likely fewer than the street sam or a slower initiative.  Against low level corp goons?  Sure, he's devastating.  Against a tricked out sammie (even "just" a starting sammie) he's going to have a lot more problems.

He spent a lot of points on being a close combat nightmare.  He should reap the benefits, and hindrances, of that choice.

And this is kind of what I'm wondering about. An Adept can indeed be deadly close up, or even as a gunslinger but a Sammie on the same BP seems to me to be better at whatever the Adept is specialized in AND whatever he's not AND faster (ie more IP). The Sammie's only drawback in comparison is that cyberwear is open to a few specific, difficult, rare attacks. . .and an EMP grenade.

edit: Although in the long run I guess the Sammie does have a hard limit to how much augmentation he can carry while, with enough karma, the Adept can keep Initiating forever. . .

[Nomad Zophiel]

What sammies have you been running with?  And why were they standing out in the open and not dodging?

Providing an example. Both sides of this theoretical matchup can take cover, but its just as easy for the example to not account for it.

The limit on range of Magic attribute in meters means that, yes the adept is absolutely deadly in close combat, like inside a building or short hallway.  But anything outside of that means the adept is just as vulnerable to firearms as the rest of us.  And his big one trick is useless until he closes the gap.  And he still has only a few IP's to do his job, likely fewer than the street sam or a slower initiative.  Against low level corp goons?  Sure, he's devastating.  Against a tricked out sammie (even "just" a starting sammie) he's going to have a lot more problems.

He spent a lot of points on being a close combat nightmare.  He should reap the benefits, and hindrances, of that choice.

And this is kind of what I'm wondering about. An Adept can indeed be deadly close up, or even as a gunslinger but a Sammie on the same BP seems to me to be better at whatever the Adept is specialized in AND whatever he's not AND faster (ie equal or more IP). The Sammie's only drawback in comparison is that cyberwear is open to a few specific, difficult, rare attacks. . .and an EMP grenade.

edit: Although in the long run I guess the Sammie does have a hard limit to how much augmentation he can carry while, with enough karma, the Adept can keep Initiating forever. . .

[The_Gun_Nut]

The adept is limited to initiating 6 times.  That's his natural, maximum magic rating, and they cannot go beyond this.

[voydangel]

The adept is limited to initiating 6 times.  That's his natural, maximum magic rating, and they cannot go beyond this.

I disagree, and the general consensus (so far - from what I can tell) is that a characters initiate grade is limited by their current Magic Attribute, thereby allowing them to raise their magic to up their initiation cap, creating a "feedback loop" of sorts and allowing unlimited progression with enough time and karma. If anyone wishes to chime in on this debate though they can go here. (Gun Nut and I are already in there )