Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: markelphoenix on <07-15-20/2029:20>
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Reading through cyberlimbs, states they start at 2, then in the attribute increase section says rule of max of 4 applies.....way I am reading this, you buy a limb, starts at 2/2 then max you can raise is to 6/6 ....am I reading this right RAW?
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The way I’ve read it you can upgrade as much as you have capacity for but it will only give you +4 max to your natural attribute...
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The way I’ve read it you can upgrade as much as you have capacity for but it will only give you +4 max to your natural attribute...
This.
If you have 6 Strength, you can potentially push a Cyberarm to 10 Strength. It starts at 2, so you'd have to buy 8 strength increases to do this. You'd have to buy 4 levels just to match your inherent 6 Strength.
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Huh, I just noticed
“Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agili-ty, Armor, or Strength of the user”
Note: “either” and “or”. Can’t have more than one, it seems. So your melee Sam has to pick between leaving Agility at 2 or leaving Strength at 2. Plus the capacity isn’t enough anyway - just getting Str 6 / Agi 6 in the limb is 100% the capacity of a synthetic limb or 8/15 the capacity for an obvious limb. Not much room left for anything else.
That’s gonna bite a lot of combat builds.
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Huh, I just noticed
“Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agili-ty, Armor, or Strength of the user”
Note: “either” and “or”. Can’t have more than one, it seems. So your melee Sam has to pick between leaving Agility at 2 or leaving Strength at 2. Plus the capacity isn’t enough anyway - just getting Str 6 / Agi 6 in the limb is 100% the capacity of a synthetic limb or 8/15 the capacity for an obvious limb. Not much room left for anything else.
That’s gonna bite a lot of combat builds.
Yeah, not a fan of cyberlimbs.
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Based on past editions of SR I will choose to ignore the interpretation of only adding one type of attribute to a limb... it would certainly crimp my ‘Alita’ inspired build. If you have capacity you can cram it in, always been that way. And as I’m the GM most of the time my word is LAW :D
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Cyberlimbs are good at low base stats, they're not really worth it at high base stats. And I don't think any table would follow such a strict interpretation that you can only boost 1 stat.
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And I don't think any table would follow such a strict interpretation that you can only boost 1 stat.
It’s not a “strict interpretation”, it’s the RAW of the CRB after three major errata updates.
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Plus the capacity isn’t enough anyway - just getting Str 6 / Agi 6 in the limb is 100% the capacity of a synthetic limb or 8/15 the capacity for an obvious limb. Not much room left for anything else.
The more I think about this, the less I like it.
(If you don't know 6e's RAW: cyberlimbs start at Str 2, Agi 2, Armour 0. Each +1 costs 1 point of capacity. They have 8 capacity for a synthetic limb and 15 for an obvious one. This contrasts sharply with 5e, where boosting the cyberlimb up to match your meat cost 0 capacity.)
There's an intuitiveness that's nice: all limbs start at basic human level, all boosts up from there cost the same, why would it make any difference to the limb how strong your flesh is? But mechanically it's punitive, especially for orcs and trolls. It's not unreasonable to think a troll combat build will have Agi 5 and Str 8. That's 9 of their 15 points of capacity (and 1 point of essence) just to get the cyberlimb equal the flesh arm it replaced. Why would they bother?
Seems like you have to scale limb capacity to the meatbod's base stats somehow. I think SR5 made the wiser choice here.
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And I don't think any table would follow such a strict interpretation that you can only boost 1 stat.
It’s not a “strict interpretation”, it’s the RAW of the CRB after three major errata updates.
Sorry, but that assumption is just the updated version of "ACKCHYUALLY, Cyberlimbs have their own Rea and Body". Meaning that there´s one single slightly ambigous line ("Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user.") that could be maliciously interpreted that way, but only when you squint hard enough and ignore every example in the CRB and other publications where characters have more than one Cyberlimb Attribute higher than 2.
Plus the capacity isn’t enough anyway - just getting Str 6 / Agi 6 in the limb is 100% the capacity of a synthetic limb or 8/15 the capacity for an obvious limb. Not much room left for anything else.
The more I think about this, the less I like it.
(If you don't know 6e's RAW: cyberlimbs start at Str 2, Agi 2, Armour 0. Each +1 costs 1 point of capacity. They have 8 capacity for a synthetic limb and 15 for an obvious one. This contrasts sharply with 5e, where boosting the cyberlimb up to match your meat cost 0 capacity.)
There's an intuitiveness that's nice: all limbs start at basic human level, all boosts up from there cost the same, why would it make any difference to the limb how strong your flesh is? But mechanically it's punitive, especially for orcs and trolls. It's not unreasonable to think a troll combat build will have Agi 5 and Str 8. That's 9 of their 15 points of capacity (and 1 point of essence) just to get the cyberlimb equal the flesh arm it replaced. Why would they bother?
Seems like you have to scale limb capacity to the meatbod's base stats somehow. I think SR5 made the wiser choice here.
That´s a very valid problem. While 5th Edition Cyberlimbs were somewhat broken because you could pretty much ignore your meat stats, Attribute increases through Cyberlimbs in 6th Edition are not only limited by the +4 cap, but were also further nerfed by the decreased base stats and , most importantly, by the fact that they all cost capacity right now, leaving very little room for the actual fun stuff like Cyberweapons and other Accessories.
In 5th, you could also increase the Attributes by customizing the Base Limb up to the natural maximum(!) before adding enhancements for capacity. Now that definitely turned out waaaaay too cheesy, but was neverless confirmed by various droplets of Errata.
The general idea of seperating cyberlimb customization and Attribute Enhancements is pretty solid, though. When executed right, it could be the best aid to the current problems with Cyberlimbs. How about Something like this:
"In addition to (or rather: prior to) Attribute Enhancements, you can also buy a customized Cyberlimb that´s tailored to your own physical frame and musculature. Each Attribute Increase (Agility and/or Strength) through Customization increases the base Cost of the Cyberlimb by 25%, but without using up capacity. Custimization can only increase Str and Agi up to your current, unaugmented Agi and Str values (not the natural maximum!), after which you can further increase the Cyberlimb via using Attribute increases using up Capacity. As usual, you can only increase your current natural Attributes by +4; if your Cyberlimb Attributes stack up higher, you have to train your natural Str and Agi to unlock their potential".
I thank that would be a neat and lightweight solution that, admittingly, would also fit nicely into an upcoming Augmentation Rulebook. A few additional notes on that concept:
- I think a percentual cost increase works better with partial Cyberlimbs etc. and also helps to better articulate the difference between Costumization and Enhancements. However, you could also use the the same flat +5000 Nuyen cost as with the existing Attribute enhancements; that would make cost calculation easier.
- As a further balancing measure, you could add an additional "availabilty tax" for customization, though I couldn´t find a good formular for it.
- Crazy idea for the cheeselords and hardcore Cyberpunks: "If you replace all of your Limbs (including the Skull and Torso), you don´t have a "natural" Strength and Agility anymore. Instead, you may customize your Cybertorso up to your natural maximum and then treat its Attributes (before further increases that use capacity) as your natural Strength and Agility for the purpose of determining the further limitations of your Cyberlimb Attributes" Lightweight rules for Full-Body-Cyborgs ? ;D
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Sorry, but that assumption is just the updated version of "ACKCHYUALLY, Cyberlimbs have their own Rea and Body". Meaning that there´s one single slightly ambigous line ("Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user.") that could be maliciously interpreted that way, but only when you squint hard enough and ignore every example in the CRB and other publications where characters have more than one Cyberlimb Attribute higher than 2.
Eh. Pregen characters that break RAW is a grand old Shadowrun tradition, so who knows what to believe?
A case in point, looking at 6e right now, the Troll Street Sam has "cyberarm (Agility 5, Strength 10; holster, arm slide, retractable spur, small smugglers compartment)."
That's 11 points of capacity for the stat increases, 5 for the holster, 3 for the arm slide, 5 for the smuggling compartment, and 3 for the spur: a total of 27 points. The maximum capacity of an cyberarm is 15 points.
Sooooooo if you're deciding the worked examples can override the wording in RAW, does that mean the RAW cyberarm capacity is wrong?
(BTW did I mention this is a book that has had three errata releases?)
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Sorry, but that assumption is just the updated version of "ACKCHYUALLY, Cyberlimbs have their own Rea and Body". Meaning that there´s one single slightly ambigous line ("Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user.") that could be maliciously interpreted that way, but only when you squint hard enough and ignore every example in the CRB and other publications where characters have more than one Cyberlimb Attribute higher than 2.
Eh. Pregen characters that break RAW is a grand old Shadowrun tradition, so who knows what to believe?
Yeah, but that´s a separate (although infuriating) issue. Of course the Streetsam isn´t chargen-Legal by any means, because when are they ever in this godforsaken mess of organized incompetence? ::)
However, there´s still the fact that this character has more than one Cyberlimb Attribute boosted. And it´s much easier to assume that this character merely has too much other stuff build in than assuming that it´s not possible to boost more than one Attribute RAW just because some (slightly) ambiguous phrasing. Think about it that way: If that was really the intended reading, do you really think that CGL would miss the opportunity to further rub it into our faces how they managed to fuck up Cyberlimbs for good? "Remember guys, only 2 Edge per combat round" :P
If anything, the Streetsam fuckup most likely hints to a previous state of the rules where Attribute Enhancements didn´t use up capacity. Of course, the math would still be off by 3 points, but yeah: Classic CGL Quality Control. Also, there are sample NPCs in Firing Line with Cyberlimbs as well, all with more 1 Attribute boosted.
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Sorry, but that assumption is just the updated version of "ACKCHYUALLY, Cyberlimbs have their own Rea and Body". Meaning that there´s one single slightly ambigous line ("Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user.") that could be maliciously interpreted that way, but only when you squint hard enough and ignore every example in the CRB and other publications where characters have more than one Cyberlimb Attribute higher than 2.
Penllawen you do have a point in that the language should have been more technically precise, but Fintersang is explaining what's "clearly" the intention.
Yes, I emphasize with "but it SAYS..." but as infuriating as it is, sometimes the RAI trumps RAW. Yes, I agree this ought to be fixed (more accurately: a fix for a different problem shouldn't have made a new problem to fix) but there are much more important issues to continue to work on that'll keep this on the back burner at best.
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Yes, I agree this ought to be fixed (more accurately: a fix for a different problem shouldn't have made a new problem to fix) but there are much more important issues to continue to work on that'll keep this on the back burner at best.
Huh? I understsand time is a finite resource but this isn't much time, surely. Take this sentence: "Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user" And delete one word to make: "Cyberlimbs can be used to add to Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user". If you're feeling frisky, go as far as "Cyberlimbs can be used to add to Agility, Armor, and/or Strength of the user"
...and it is fixed. I am vaguely aware there are complications around page layouts and preserving page numbers that make large scale changes to the PDF difficult, but I don't see how that deleting one word can cause issues with layout.
There's been enough time since 6e shipped to release, what, five sourcebooks? But not enough time to delete one word in one file? We've surely spent longer talking about it just now than it would take to fix.
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Bureaucracy.
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Bureaucracy.
To remove one word?! Aren’t there, like, ten people working at Catalyst? How much red tape can there be?!
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Bureaucracy.
To remove one word?! Aren’t there, like, ten people working at Catalyst? How much red tape can there be?!
Less about red tape and more about care/competence I think. It's too bad they don't have the gusto of their volunteers man. SSDR for president!
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I don't know why cyberlimb stats just don't start at that persons base stats and then you can enhance them by up to +4, or if you must because you don't think it makes sense have 2, one is custom limbs that cost what cyberlimbs cost now , and then also have basic replacement limbs that start at straight 2s that can't take mods and cost about as much as a pack of cigarettes. They made it more complex than needed for a worse game mechanic.
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I don't know why cyberlimb stats just don't start at that persons base stats and then you can enhance them by up to +4, or if you must because you don't think it makes sense have 2, one is custom limbs that cost what cyberlimbs cost now , and then also have basic replacement limbs that start at straight 2s that can't take mods and cost about as much as a pack of cigarettes. They made it more complex than needed for a worse game mechanic.
Cyberlimbs should have a cosmetic option that is low to no cost that simply use the characters stats. Then there should be the "Combat Limb" options where things get expensive and have several pages of useful mechanical options.
6th edition limbs are a mechanical trap, which is unfortunate.
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I don't know why cyberlimb stats just don't start at that persons base stats and then you can enhance them by up to +4, or if you must because you don't think it makes sense have 2, one is custom limbs that cost what cyberlimbs cost now , and then also have basic replacement limbs that start at straight 2s that can't take mods and cost about as much as a pack of cigarettes. They made it more complex than needed for a worse game mechanic.
Cyberlimbs should have a cosmetic option that is low to no cost that simply use the characters stats. Then there should be the "Combat Limb" options where things get expensive and have several pages of useful mechanical options.
6th edition limbs are a mechanical trap, which is unfortunate.
I agree for the most part, but there are some corner cases that are solid. Say a ranged combat character who only cares about agility and the bonus health boxes.
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Cyberlimbs should have a cosmetic option that is low to no cost that simply use the characters stats. Then there should be the "Combat Limb" options where things get expensive and have several pages of useful mechanical options.
Soooo, just like 5e then?
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Cyberlimbs should have a cosmetic option that is low to no cost that simply use the characters stats. Then there should be the "Combat Limb" options where things get expensive and have several pages of useful mechanical options.
Soooo, just like 5e then?
Seems similar, except 5e had a solid full borg option since you could then ignore your normal stats.
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Cyberlimbs should have a cosmetic option that is low to no cost that simply use the characters stats. Then there should be the "Combat Limb" options where things get expensive and have several pages of useful mechanical options.
Soooo, just like 5e then?
Seems similar, except 5e had a solid full borg option since you could then ignore your normal stats.
Can't QUITE ignore the physical stats with a full cyborg body, because hilariously cyberlimb stats don't contribute to Physical Limit. At least you don't have that problem in 6e!
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Cyberlimbs should have a cosmetic option that is low to no cost that simply use the characters stats. Then there should be the "Combat Limb" options where things get expensive and have several pages of useful mechanical options.
Soooo, just like 5e then?
5e didn't have a cheap cosmetic option. It had an expensive cosmetic option, and an even more expensive mechanically good options.
When I say cheap, I mean, .1 Essence, 1,000 Nuyen, 2 capacity kind of range. Pretty much an aesthetic choice.
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Cyberlimbs should have a cosmetic option that is low to no cost that simply use the characters stats. Then there should be the "Combat Limb" options where things get expensive and have several pages of useful mechanical options.
Soooo, just like 5e then?
5e didn't have a cheap cosmetic option. It had an expensive cosmetic option, and an even more expensive mechanically good options.
When I say cheap, I mean, .1 Essence, 1,000 Nuyen, 2 capacity kind of range. Pretty much an aesthetic choice.
Basically, something that would allow for, "Hey, that guy has a basic arm replacement. My character can deduce that he lost it in something bad, but made a conscious choice to simply replace it like a normal citizen or lacked the resources to go for a heftier model that had all the bells and whistles to do real damage." Kind of what you're getting at?
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They start at Strength 2 and Agility 2 but you can raise them how much you want (as long as you have the resources and capacity for it).
But no point in getting too carried away because no matter what Strength and Agility you have in your cyberlilmb you can only UTILIZE your current Strength and Agility+ 4.
SR6 p. 288 Cyberlimb Accessories - Attribute Increase
The maximum augmented increase of 4 is in place here, so don’t buy an attribute increase that would increase one of your attributes higher than 4, as it would be a waste.
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Soooo, just like 5e then?
5e didn't have a cheap cosmetic option. It had an expensive cosmetic option, and an even more expensive mechanically good options.
When I say cheap, I mean, .1 Essence, 1,000 Nuyen, 2 capacity kind of range. Pretty much an aesthetic choice.
Oh I see, yeah, I agree.
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The language in that section is clunky and unnecessary if the intent is to limit to cyberlimb to a single stat increase. There are many far more efficient ways to word this.
Nowhere does it say that each cyberlimb can have only one of each type of accessory. I think the intent was probably something more along the lines of "You cannot use a single Attribute Increase accessory to increase more than one Attribute." And "Only one Attribute can be raised above racial maximums in each Cyberlimb." But trying to get these all into condensed language wound up with something that "Each cyberlimb can have a single Attribute Increase accessory which affects only one of Strength, Agility, or Armor" could have said more directly.
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The wording is terrible. Yes.
But it seems clear that the intent is that each time you buy the Attribute Increase accessory it is taken for either Agility, Armor, or Strength. When you buy one rank of Attribute Increase it only increase either Agility, Armor, or Strength. That one rank of Attribute Increase does not increase all three attributes at once. The Attribute Increase accessory itself can only add either Agility, Armor, or Strength.
Each cyberlimb can have multiple cyberlimb accessories. The attribute increase accessory can be taken for each of the three attributes, independent of each other.
The only limiting factor here is capacity (and resources).
You can install an obvious cyberarm with for example 7 ranks of the Increase Agility accessory (for a total Agility of 9) and 8 ranks of the Increase Strength accessory (for a total Strength of 10). If you like.
....even if you only have a natural Agility and Strength of say, 3.
Now, since the maximum augmented increase of 4 is in place here you would only be allowed to utilize an Agility rating of 3+4=7 and Strength rating of 3+4=7 (which mean the last 2 ranks of your Increased Agility accessory and the last 3 ranks of Increased Strength accessory would currently be 'wasted').
Having said that, if you later, during game play, raise your natural Agility from 3 to 5 and your natural Strength from 3 to 6 you would actually be allowed to utilize the full scope of your obvious cyberarm (since Agility 5+4=9 and Strength 6+4=10).