[Xenon]

There's not a lot of point to Metatype C

The reason would be to walk out of chargen with Edge 7 instead of Edge 5.

(I don't know anybody who likes throwing away the extra couple adjustment points).

It is still an increase of 2 Edge (which in this case is a post chargen value of 65 karma).

But yes, it would make a lot more sense if metatype adjustment points instead gave you for example 1, 3, 6, 9, 13 adjustment attribute points.

And you also need to have a correlation between metatype points and attribute points. If you go Meta A and Attribute B or Attribute A and meta B should not matter. You should probably end up with the same character.

Using the same delta between the points (+2, +3, +3, +4) translated to attributes (and starting with a baseline of 2.5 average attributes) you might end up with something like this; 12, 14, 17, 20, 24.

But to be honest, since there is no real opportunity cost to pick a metahuman I think it would not be more than fair that Humans also get to spend adjustment points on regular attributes. Otherwise metahumans will just be straight up better (in most scenarios they probably will be anyway since they also get free racial qualities).

I don't especially like that you can have some magic abilities almost for free.
...
So I guess I'd rather Magic/Resonance D was still Mundane.

Agree.

All other priority categories start out bad and then get slowly better and then really good.
Magic start out bad, but then immediately get super good. Then just add 10 karma worth of spells and 1 adjustment attribute point worth of magic per category on top of that which honestly is not really worth it. For adepts it is basically only 1 adjustment attribute point worth of magic per category which mean there is virtually no point at all at going higher than D if you plan on going Adept.

Instead magic D need to be just slightly better than Magic E and Magic A need to open up a lot more options for an awakened character than just Magic priority D. Progressie distribution like the other categories.

Perhaps something like this; E = Mundane, D = Weak Aspected Magician, C = Weak Adept/Techno or Strong Aspected Magician, B = Strong Adept/Techno or Weak Full Magician/Mystic Adept, A = Strong Full Magician/Mystic Adept.

That being the case...  Why not take 2 spells or 1 point worth of adept powers plus Edge 2 (metatype Priority E), instead of Edge 5 (metatype priority D)?  Surely that bit of magic or couple of powers could offset the extra few starting Edge.

Cause unless that was their concept, they're probably going to lose that Magic rating when they start putting in ware.

I think he mean that starting the game with Edge 5 + forever Mundane (Magic E, Meta D) is pretty bad compared to starting the game with Edge 2 (that you can raise to 3 with 15 customization karma) but you are now also fully Awakened or fully Emerged... and perhaps also get a couple of free spells or complex forms as an added bonus (Magic D, Meta E).

Even if you don't really plan on being a magician, adept or technomancer there is still very little reason to not go Magic D during chargen.

[MercilessMing]

I guess if you play that going to Magic 0 doesn't mean you become mundane, that makes sense.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I guess if you play that going to Magic 0 doesn't mean you become mundane, that makes sense.

I'm not a fan of that being the case, but it's been that way for a couple editions now.  Maybe even in 4e.

[ammulder]

I'm not a fan of that being the case, but it's been that way for a couple editions now.  Maybe even in 4e.

Does it state a consequence of going to Magic 0 somewhere in 6e?  I see p38 it talks about Essence decline as you install cyberware and your Magic rating going down accordingly, but doesn't mention any consequence of going to 0.  In the magic chapter the only mention I see is under Initiation, where your initiate grade can't be higher than your magic rating (so, no initiation with magic 0).  In the gear chapter it just reiterates that essence is lost as you install cyberware/bioware.  I don't see any discussion of essence loss in the character creation chapter.  (FWIW, I also don't see a consequence of going to Resonance 0.)  Your associated dice pools would be comparatively lousy, but presumably you'd pick spells/forms/powers where that wasn't as important.

I thought there was a discussion of consequences of Essence going to 0, but I can't even find that now, so maybe I'm just missing a passage?

Anyway, I'm not really saying people ought to build characters this way, more that it's odd that the priorities table would even allow it.  I would have thought the table would set it up so that being Awakened would be more special than "you can add on a bit of magic" or "anybody can do it if they like".  The impression I've always gotten from the setting is that magic/technomancers were somewhat rare -- not like every wageslave has a couple powers they don't even bother to put on their résumé.

[Xenon]

SR6 is not very explicit when it comes to rules in general ;-)


In SR5 it was explained that you can not cast spells when your current magic reach 0 but that you can start casting spells again once you raised your magic rating to a positive value.

It was also explained that you would only be forever mundane if your max magic was ever lowered to 0. But since max magic is equal to floor(essence) + initiation grade this typically will never happen if you first initiate at least once.

In SR6 they changed it so maximum magic is not reduced until you lost a full point of essence (max magic = ceiling(essence) + initiation grade) which mean they could skip the entire paragraph about becoming mundane if maximum magic reach 0 (because this doesn't happen until you reach 0 essence at which point you are dead anyway). This was actually an elegant way to get rid of a set of rather complicated rules.

[ammulder]

In SR6 they changed it so maximum magic is not reduced until you lost a full point of essence (max magic = ceiling(essence) + initiation grade) which mean they could skip the entire paragraph about becoming mundane if maximum magic reach 0 (because this doesn't happen until you reach 0 essence at which point you are dead anyway). This was actually an elegant way to get rid of a set of rather complicated rules.

Gosh, I like your reading... I would like if trivial amounts of cyberware didn't affect magic... but it wasn't how I read it.  p.38: "anytime your Essence goes below any whole integer, you lose a corresponding point of Magic or Resonance" -- if you get your first 0.01 worth of cyberware, didn't your Essence just "go below the whole integer '6'" meaning your Magic goes to 5 when your Essence is 5.99?

Wait, now I see under Initiation, "Your maximum Magic rank is 6 + Initiate Grade (reduced by one for every full point of Essence lost)."  So I guess I'll just go with that. 

Also, does it actually say you die or turn into a zombie or whatever when your Essence goes to 0?  That's what I thought I remembered, but I couldn't find it in the 6e book when I looked this morning.

[Xenon]

but it wasn't how I read it.  p.38: "anytime your Essence goes below any whole integer, you lose a corresponding point of Magic or Resonance"

This is where they talk about your current magic rating, not your maximum magic rating

under Initiation, "Your maximum Magic rank is 6 + Initiate Grade (reduced by one for every full point of Essence lost)." 

This is where they talk about your maximum magic rating, not your current magic rating.

So if you have current magic 1 and max magic 6 and essence 6.
Then get 0.1 essence worth of augmentations
Then your current magic goes down to 0 but your maximum magic stays at 6 until you get another 0.9 essence worth of augmentations.

Also, does it actually say you die or turn into a zombie or whatever when your Essence goes to 0? 

It might have been mentioned in the quick start rules actually. But No. Core doesn't explicitly mention anything about this. And IIRC it also doesn't actually say you start with 6 essence (but maybe that was finally fixed in errata, don't remember).

[ammulder]

Huh.

(Side note: the current 6e core PDF and the current errata sheet both do have Essence "starting at 6.")

All right, so... let's say you put in Magic D for the heck of it, and choose to be an Aspected Spellcaster.  Then you go with Metatype E, Resources C, and buy Wired Reflexes 2 (used, to save nuyen, so essence 2.2) and up to another 0.75 Essence worth of Cyberware.

If I've got this right, you started with Current Magic 2, Max Magic 6, and 4 spells.

The cyberware costs up to 2.95 essence, resulting in Current Magic 0 (technically -1 but negative attributes don't seem possible), Max Magic 4, and the 4 spells, so pick ones that don't have super-hard tests to take effect.  (Heal people with high essence, for instance.)  You might not be as good as a dedicated Mage/Shaman build, but maybe this is a group without a caster, or maybe you can just take complimentary spells or whatever.

I guess you could also use Karma to buy your Magic rating up from 0 to your max of 4?  But since (pointed out in next post) that comes before cyberware, you'd spend 35 to buy it up to 4 and then it would get cut to 1, or 65 to net a 2 if you put negative qualities into it too.

So I think you can exit character generation with Essence 3.05, Magic 1-2 as an aspected spellcaster, 4 spells, and that's with Magic Priority D (for "Dump").  You have Attributes A and Skills B (a pretty awesome base), though you do need to invest in Sorcery.  You know, you can be a gunslinger build with Wired 2 and Improved Invisibility and Mystic Armor, or a Face with Physical Mask, because why not?  You can still Initiate as well, or start with a level of Focused Concentration, to make sustaining those spells cheaper.

It's not as bad as I first thought on account of the order-of-operations, but that still doesn't seem right for a "D" priority.

* Edit: corrected starting magic according to the following post

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It could absolutely be made more explicit, but you first buy up your attributes with karma THEN you buy cyberware.  There is no "start at low MAG, dump a ton of essence because lul, then buy up MAG with karma."

[ammulder]

Once a PC is live (post creation and etc.), can you buy up Magic with Karma?  If your current Magic rating is 1 and maximum magic rating is 4, can you buy up your Magic from 1 to 2 with 10 Karma?

In the "Character Advancement" section, the discussion of buying up attributes starts with "Whether physical or mental," and omits special (e.g. Magic).  But in the Initiation section it says "Note that the Magic rank does not increase automatically at initiation—you still must spend Karma to increase it."  So I guess you would buy it up like any other attribute?

[Xenon]

You can spend karma to raise special attributes like edge (but only if you not already have a current edge rating equal to your metatype maximum edge rating), magic (but only if you are awakened and not already have a current magic rating equal to your max magic rating) or resonance (but only if you are emerged and not already have a current resonance rating equal to your max resonance rating).

In previous edition you bought augmentations at step six before spending left over karma at step seven of chargen.
In this edition you spend your customization karma at step four and then buy your augmentations in step five of chargen.

Raising a physical, mental or special attribute from 0 to 1 cost 5 karma. Raising an attribute from 1 to 2 cost 10 karma.

All right, so... let's say you put in Magic D ... and choose to be an Aspected Spellcaster

Why go aspected. You might as well go full magician. The extra magic you got from limiting yourself to an aspected magician was wasted on augmentations anyway. Or go physical adept. Spending 5 karma on magic after chargen will give you a free power point.

Current Magic 0, Max Magic 4, and the 4 spells, so pick ones that don't have super-hard tests to take effect.

The intent is probably still that you cannot cast spells while your current magic rating is 0.
But yes, after you spend 5 post chargen karma to raise your magic rating to 1 your aspected magician will have access to 4 spells (and astral perception and projection!).

[MercilessMing]

In character creation, Spend Customization Karma is step 4, Buy Gear is step 5, so that's how you can tell that you can't buy up your MAG after tanking it with ware, during character creation.  Has to be live to do that

[Hobbes]

It could absolutely be made more explicit, but you first buy up your attributes with karma THEN you buy cyberware.  There is no "start at low MAG, dump a ton of essence because lul, then buy up MAG with karma."

Really only an impediment to burn out Technomancers.  Magic 1 or 2 Adepts/Mages weren't counting on their Magic for much out of the gate.  If they need to wait a run to get there squib on, no big deal.

Technomancers that weren't going to do much with Sprites can easily get by with a single point of Resonance.  But they need at least one point to do the hacking and threading.  Luckily its only a minor annoyance to have to ask the GM, "Hey can I spend my 5 points of karma that I saved from Char Gen before the run starts?" 

Not so much a case it can't be done, just can't be done at char gen.  Couple other things fall into that bucket too.  Delayed gratification, it's good for you, teaches patience. 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It could absolutely be made more explicit, but you first buy up your attributes with karma THEN you buy cyberware.  There is no "start at low MAG, dump a ton of essence because lul, then buy up MAG with karma."

Really only an impediment to burn out Technomancers.  Magic 1 or 2 Adepts/Mages weren't counting on their Magic for much out of the gate.  If they need to wait a run to get there squib on, no big deal.

Technomancers that weren't going to do much with Sprites can easily get by with a single point of Resonance.  But they need at least one point to do the hacking and threading.  Luckily its only a minor annoyance to have to ask the GM, "Hey can I spend my 5 points of karma that I saved from Char Gen before the run starts?" 

Not so much a case it can't be done, just can't be done at char gen.  Couple other things fall into that bucket too.  Delayed gratification, it's good for you, teaches patience.

It's still a point of ambiguity as to whether you CAN save any chargen karma... I'd say by RAW you're given no allowance to save any and therefore you must spend it all.

But that's another issue

[Tecumseh]

Not that the tangent isn't valuable, but it's been discussed many times and in many places.

I'd like to turn the conversation back to Wakshaani's original question around the 6E priority table, specifically its strengths, weaknesses, and how it might improve.