[Mirikon]

Well, it is.....sometimes. Sometimes you want them all alive but unconscious too. In fact, sometimes you want them conscious but unable to fight. The key is that you always want to end combat with all threats neutralized.

That said, "dead" is my personally favorite form of neutralized.

No, you always want to end combat with you and your team being alive, not in custody, and not having your faces plastered over every newsfeed in the sprawl. Sometimes this means all threats have to be 'neutralized'. Sometimes, this means a couple smoke grenades to cover your escape.

Honestly, there's problems you're going to face if you cause massive death and destruction, even when dealing with smaller corps and syndicates/gangs.

For the corp side, we're talking about A-rated or lower. Anyone with AA rating will have extraterritoriality, and the resources to back it up. But when you're dealing with an A or lower corporation, that doesn't mean you're in the clear. Because those corps often contract out their security to people at Knight Errant, Lone Star, Eagle, or one of the other providers. And they DO have access to forensics, and if you go around killing people and blowing shit up on property they're contracted to patrol, then they WILL have a stake in hunting you down, to show their clients that they get the job done. ESPECIALLY when you make a habit of it in places outside the Barrens. Doing stuff like that practically makes KE's PR people salivate at the possible clips of officers taking down 'dangerous terrorists' that they can use in commercials, all featuring your team getting geeked.

For the criminal side, unless your team all lives at the same address, and doesn't do anything on their own, ever, then you're not considering the possible problems. Remember, small-time syndicates know all the tricks you do. Hell, people like them INVENTED most of them. You seem to be under the delusion that these people don't have any contacts of their own, and even if they can track you down, they'll just send waves of guys at you when you're all together. That's stupid thinking, especially when talking about gangs. Your street samurai isn't going to be much good when his ride has an 'accident' on his way back from the club and blows up. A lot of other scenarios to consider, as well. Hell, I don't even have to think hard on this. Just look at what gangs do to eachother today in situations where a target is too well protected for a frontal assault.

And we're not even getting to the fact that many low-level gangs tend to have partners or sponsors that they rely on for some of their business. Take out this gang, and you may have ruined a Yak protection scheme, or distribution for a Cutters drug network. Everything is connected. The key to living in the shadows is to do the job without making enough waves that you become an annoyance to one of the big fish.

[Senko]

Just want to add that sometimes that security guard you killed when you could have found a way around him is a KE, Lonestar, X, officer moonlighting for some extra cash. In which case you don't just have generic "Look we got dangerous terrorists." PR flack from the higher ups but personal you killed one of us motivation from the beat cops. Then of course there's always the possibility of highly experienced/connected/powerful criminal elements taking a hand because your loose elements are drawing attention they don't want and making them look bad ot other similar elements. When the higher ups want you caught for the publicity, the front line officers want you dead for their coworker, the criminal elements want you "recycled" for drawing unwanted attention and the man on the street is reporting anyone who might be those dangerous terrorists there's not many places left to hide.

[Raphael diSanto]

Late to the part here, but .. It sounds, to me, like you're asking two separate, but related questions:

1) My PCs are combat monsters and kill everything faster than you can blink. How do I stop this?

and

2) How do I stop my players themselves from using violence as the answer to all their characters' problems?

Well....

1) This is easy. There's always a bigger fish. I don't care how badass your Street Sam is, the corps have more money, more time, and more bodies than any single lone Shadowrunner can ever hope to get. If said razorboy is pulling the special snowflake card, he's gonna have to be satisfied with the posthumous accolade of "Well, it took NeoNet 2 tanks and an airstrike to kill him, but they got him in the end." Don't matter much to NeoNet. Chummer's dead either way.

2) This is more difficult, and can be achieved by many of the things people have already talked about. Talking to the players is a really good start. Lots of things can be solved purely by communicating. If they want a run-and-gun game, and you don't, you'll have to compromise.

That said... One thing that I didn't see suggest is having them face life-threatening situations that they -can't- shoot their way out of. For example: Get 'em on a run, then dump 'em in the middle of the Siberian Tundra. Let's see how well your wired reflexes deal with -20F Temps, and no Stuffer Shack to keep that overactive metabolism running. Give 'em sequentially increasing body tests to resist hypothermia. That air drop is deadly enough without adding whatever awakened creatures you want to it, especially if they've been there a while and are now running at all kinds of -ve modifiers. I ran a run like that, once. It was amazing how fast it humbled the players, taking them out of their nice comfortable "shoot everything that moves" urban comfort zone......

[Sendaz]

Cash.


Set a price for a 'clean' job and penalties if it gets messy.

Your team represents a particular set of skills and if all the Johnson needed was the front door kicked in with the place being torn up and everyone killed, he would have just paid off some local street gangs to do the trashing.

Instead he wanted a job done quieter like sabotaging a rival company (or even a rival department in his own company) project in such a way as to set them back long enough the Johnson can get his product launched first or even stealing plans to a new prototype while leaving few marks pointing back to any inter-corporate hanky panky. 
Kind of hard to roll that new invention/recipe as your own brand if the company you looted reports it was stolen during an extremely violent robbery.
Robbing/sabotaging each other is fine, so long as you don't get caught at it.

Same with extractions, the idea is to get the target out and into the loving embrace of their new corp with a minimum of fuss. 
Sure the old corp will be pissed, but when the guy in ensconced in his new lair, the receiving corp can spin it as a voluntary extraction, regardless of whether it actually was or not.
The receiving corp may have to pay for 'damages' along the way, so again it in their interest to keep the collateral damage low.

There will probably always be some level of violence, nobody is saying your team has to be pacifists, but it should be a measured response.

But that means you have to give them jobs that they can do without wrecking the place, and if they insist on going full blazing well the previous posts have plenty of suggestions to respond with, but even more persuasive is hitting them in the pocketbook.   If they get a rep as burning things to the ground, the better paying Johnsons are going to avoid them, forcing them to chump change jobs, or they get used like throwaway decoys for the Real Runners the Johnson hires. 
So have the team do their usual pyrotechnic demolitions and turn up at the meet for the payoff from the Johnson to get paid and then see the 'main' team turn up with the device/plans/whatever they got while the guards were being distracted by the first team and getting the bigger payout.

[Senko]

You know Sendaz reading your post I have to admit the first thing that popped into my head was a Johnson hiring a good, reliable team to quietly extract their target and replace them with a decoy while hiring this team to hit the same place a little later and kill everybody. target is quietly removed to their offshore research facility, opposing corp believes they died along with everyone else in the nearby vacinity and this team is left dealing with the heat from both corporations for killing a high priority target while the Johnson denies ever having met them.

[Mirikon]

The scenario gets even better when you start thinking about what kind of facility is getting hit. I'm not even talking about some high tech cyber outfit, or bleeding edge programs. Industrial sites are where you want to pull something like this, and I'll tell you why.

First, industrial sites usually have more of the more 'expendable' types of human resources about, and less of the high end talent or critical data. While this means that security is generally less, you're more likely to have collateral damage that has friends and families in the local gangs. This becomes important later on.

Second, you have big tanks, crates, or other storage mediums of Stuff. The exact nature of the Stuff is up to you, and how badly you want to frag them (and the neighborhood). Chemicals, either toxic or flammable, are the gold standard for this, as it doesn't take much for a kill-happy team to rupture tanks, causing explosions. Even if they don't hit the tanks, the team doing the real run can arrange for tanks to 'accidentally' explode while your team are on site. Basic chemical spills are the standard, as I said, but if you really want to gutpunch them, make it something radioactive, or make it be foodstuffs, like soy factories. Either one of those going up in flames will immediately ratchet up both public awareness and police looking for the 'terrorists'.

Now, how you play this depends on whether this is an internal job or an external one, but the main thrust remains the same. Mr. J approaches the team for a smash and grab, with emphasis on making sure that the facility's production is slowed at least a couple weeks. They're hitting an Ares target, and Mr. J looks Hispanic and speaks with an Aztlaner accent. He doesn't say he's working for the Big A, but, well, he doesn't say he isn't, either. (News flash, he isn't, but the players are meant to think he is.)

Now, after the run there is massive property damage, mass casualties, and a lot of people crying for blood. A 'helpful tip' comes in from one of the local gangs. They want the Knights off their backs, so they mention who they 'conveniently' spotted during the attack, namely your team. Doesn't mean they won't go about trying to find the team themselves, but they aren't about to take heat from Knight Errant for something someone else did, especially if there is a reward for the info. So your team's image gets put up on the screens, since cameras are everywhere, and even gangers have commlinks. And because of the damage, KE is looking to score points on taking the terrorists down.

Now the team has to try and avoid capture by the Knights, attacks from the gangers, and the inevitable reward for fucking up so grandly, a double-cross (maybe even a triple-cross) at the meet, with our suspiciously Aztlan-ish Mr. J attempts to silence the team. For added difficulty, have the Knights crash the party, once more on a 'tip', while Mr. J disappears.

What do you have after all of this? Your runners have learned that getting the rep for being gun-happy has led them into being patsies for a run that's turning into a PR nightmare. Their employers aren't going to pay that second half, and the Knights are broadcasting their faces, saying that they're to blame for causing a city-wide foot shortage. All while Ares starts maneuvers against Aztechnology, while Horizon looks on.

[Sendaz]

@ 忍

Senko's and Mirikon's scenarios are some excellent examples of some of the extreme Johnson-level fuckery that can happen when a team pegholes themselves as cannon fodder.

But again this is more a response toward an advanced team that has already slid far down the bloody slope of extreme gun monkey with the rep/notoriety to match.
You don't want to spring this level of grief on newer groups still trying to shape themselves. But a gentler version of the above can serve as a warning about being known as overly expendable.

Use media, if they are constantly getting in faces, videos will pop up and they will be noticed by the public.  Contacts can start declining as they become too hot to be around.

But honestly for starters, try offering better payouts in both karma & cash for quieter jobs.  We all love the shinies and more money means more shininess.

Players try to load as much as they can into chargen because unless you are playing the long haul campaigns, most characters see very little upgrades/skill or stat improvements.

If the players know they can actually earn enough to improve in the game, this also takes some of the urge of max loading their equip/skill/stats out and lets them spread it out a bit during chargen, or maybe just allocate a bonus set of skill points to everyone, with the caveat that they have to be spent on non-primary goals (ie Mage can't spend on magical skills, Sammies can't spend on gun/combat skills, etc...) so that everyone has some other abilities beyond the main.

Still give them a decent bit of rough housing with security/gangs/fill in the blank, but the main focus should be on doing a quality job.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Even better, set their violence against the fact that their fixer has to pass on giving them 'great paying runs' because they're far too trigger-happy.

"Ya know, I wanted to give you guys this job, but fuck, I didn't want you guys to get killed just for walking in the door with your guns drawn the way you always do; it would've made it impossible to get done, and then I wouldn't get paid.  So I had to give it to Subtle Sam's crew."

My preference is to leave the sensor records wiped (or edited) and the guards waking up from a laes sleep wondering why they fell asleep.  Unlike firebug's /reddit folk, or the people I unfortunately ran into at DragonCon a few years back, the best runs are ones in which the people who are hit never even know they've been hit.

[farothel]

My preference is to leave the sensor records wiped (or edited) and the guards waking up from a laes sleep wondering why they fell asleep.  Unlike firebug's /reddit folk, or the people I unfortunately ran into at DragonCon a few years back, the best runs are ones in which the people who are hit never even know they've been hit.

And it's not all that hard to do actually.  A mystic adept or mage with improved invisibility and a shot of laes and some skills in sneaking (and sticking in the needle) can already have a go at it.

[Sendaz]

Even better, set their violence against the fact that their fixer has to pass on giving them 'great paying runs' because they're far too trigger-happy.

"Ya know, I wanted to give you guys this job, but fuck, I didn't want you guys to get killed just for walking in the door with your guns drawn the way you always do; it would've made it impossible to get done, and then I wouldn't get paid.  So I had to give it to Subtle Sam's crew."

  Exactly! 
When it hits the team in the pocketbook, they tend to take notice real quick and start looking at ways to turn that around.

Plus jobs like this tend to require more range of skills beyond simple weapon mastery, so it allows the other roles the opportunity to bring their own skills into play more.

[Mirikon]

My preference is to leave the sensor records wiped (or edited) and the guards waking up from a laes sleep wondering why they fell asleep.  Unlike firebug's /reddit folk, or the people I unfortunately ran into at DragonCon a few years back, the best runs are ones in which the people who are hit never even know they've been hit.

Depends on the point of the run, to be honest. For a datasteal or covert sabotage, you are absolutely right. The longer before anyone at the target corp knows they've been hit, the more use the paydata is.

But there are times where you have to make a splash. Extractions, 'distraction' runs, overt sabotage, and wetwork are the main examples here. By their very nature, people WILL know that something's gone down. Even so, it is usually best if you make as little impact as possible, for the reasons discussed earlier in the thread. Hell, a wetwork assignment where only the target dies, without the assassin being seen or having to fight anyone else is considered the height of the craft!

It is part of the reason that, if I have the funds, I typically buy at least three outfits and weapon loadouts for my characters. First you have the day-to-day, things that aren't going to raise eyebrows as you're walking down the street, or doing a bit of legwork. Then you have your 'going out', for discrete protection when you're at the club or someplace where a lined coat just won't cut it. Third, you have 'on the job', where you got a decent array of protection, with armor tailored to your role in the party. Sometimes, I'll have a fourth, which is 'assault', with the heaviest weapons and armor I can afford/use, to hell with legalities, because we're about to be storming a place. I keep these three or four different kits, because most of the time, 'subtle' wins hands over fist against 'loud'. But when you need to go loud, you need to be kitted out for going loud.

[忍]

What's a good example of a HTR stat block that should instill fear?

[Mirikon]

Generally, whatever the team has +4-10 dice should inspire fear.

On the other hand, you can work wonders with more 'normal' corpsec, and just giving them better gear, and having tactics on their side. Have them set an ambush with a kill-zone. Have it be as insanely unfair as you like. Twin HMG focused down the hallway the team has to get through to get to their objective, meaning they have to hurry to keep from being turned into Swiss cheese as the HMGs alternate between suppressing fire and targeting anyone in the hallway. Traps in the hall that will explode, stab, slice, shoot, or gas the party so that if they charge ahead, they get boned. And THEN you come into the kill-box with a bunch of assault rifles pointed at you.

Then have a couple social encounters to get them a pass. So that no one complains about being 'forced' to RP, have the pass also being able to be obtained by a (much more difficult) hacking session, and the pass becomes invalid if people know a hack's been made.

Remember, Omaha Beach was deadly not because the Germans were supersoldiers, but because they had an entrenched position with good cover, and multiple killzones for machine guns and artillery, as well as choke points that could be defended.

[Senko]

Even better, set their violence against the fact that their fixer has to pass on giving them 'great paying runs' because they're far too trigger-happy.

"Ya know, I wanted to give you guys this job, but fuck, I didn't want you guys to get killed just for walking in the door with your guns drawn the way you always do; it would've made it impossible to get done, and then I wouldn't get paid.  So I had to give it to Subtle Sam's crew."

My preference is to leave the sensor records wiped (or edited) and the guards waking up from a laes sleep wondering why they fell asleep.  Unlike firebug's /reddit folk, or the people I unfortunately ran into at DragonCon a few years back, the best runs are ones in which the people who are hit never even know they've been hit.

I admit my preference is to avoid them knowing you were there too makes it a lot easier to get away.

As for the "inspire fear" question you can always throw hints of bigger fish out there. Give them as Mirikon said a response that will push/kill them if some die at the HTR team's hands they'll hopefully learn their lesson if they don't plaster the news channels with sound bytes by a local news personality indicating their calling in a more experienced team to lead the search not their global HTR team based at their corporate headquarter just the local eastern sea board one.

If you really want to mess with them let them hear that, get nice and complacent then have them see a news clip where the terrorist cell was "eliminated" followed by an anonymous letter placed ON the local deckers highly secure device basically saying "Hello X, we know you did Y to our facility Z. May we suggest you do this one little job for us (Details attached) if you don't want a terrible accident to happen." then fire a sniper round through a window shattering some suitable object trid projector, fan, their favorite seat.

[Mirikon]

@Senko: Yep, that's one of the big reasons you don't go into killing frenzies in Shadowrun. It isn't just that there is always a bigger fish, but that the other side has a helluvalot more resources than you do, and if you move yourself too far up their 'to do' list, then they'll focus them on you. And you can't be on guard 24/7.

To go back to the idea of making even normal corpsec a threat, I'd like to draw on my D&D experience for a moment. Consider the lowly kobold. A suitable threat for any first level party, but too weak for mid level adventurers to bother with, yes? But they are known for being cunning trapmakers, and working together. Sure, a single kobold couldn't do anything against a level 10 warrior, in fact, the level 10 warrior could probably solo 10 kobolds if they just went charging up and stabbing at him with their little spears. But that is being stupid, and while kobolds are weak, they aren't any dumber than humans.

Which is where traps come in. Pit traps, collapsing ceiling traps, spike traps, poison gas traps, alchemist's fire traps, spinning blade traps, and more! When you really start thinking evil, you have a trap with a delay, so that a guard running back across it can deliberately trigger the trap, and have it go off in the face of the ones chasing him.

What does this have to do with Shadowrun? If you can't figure out a 1001 ways to lay devious traps for your players, then you need to hand in your GM screen until you've played some D&D. But here's a freebie: pressure plate at a 90 degree turn in a hallway to the secured area. Completely mechanical mechanism, with no matrix connectivity and it'll keep working during power outages. Step on the plate, and hidden weapons fire on you going down the hallway you just came from. I'm a fan of LMGs, but you can also set it up with flamethrowers or lasers. Best news? The trap can only be disarmed by a guard pressing a physical switch at the end of the hallway past the turn, so there is no chance to hack the system, and keep the weapons offline, so there are no matrix icons at all to tip the party to what is about to happen to them. Because it is mechanical, and works on weight, it also does wonders against stealthers. Even better, because the system is purely mechanical, your team will run back into the trap coming out if they don't do something to physically disable the pressure plate (something that will take time or make a lot of noise).

Of course, there are a couple ways to bypass the trap without running through a meat grinder. An Adept with Wall Running could do it, easily. Same with anyone wearing Gecko Tape Gloves. Pretty much anything that doesn't set off the pressure plate on the floor will work.