[Ethan]

I admit it, I love the guns in SR. Even my least combat-capable characters have a varied assortment of firearms. So I bought GH the day it came out and I've kept it open on my PC ever since.

Really liking the Machine Pistols, the B&P MP9 is nice with its RC of 1 but I like the Onotari Equalizer for its -1 AP. They have low ammo capacities however, compared to the Ares Crusader and whatnot.

The Colt M1991 seems to be the "perfect throwaway" as Riser puts it. Pop on a smartlink or laser sight accessory and take it off before you throw it away. Saves you 50¥ and the effort of removing the RFIDs from a Pred IV.

What did you like about Gun Heaven?

[James McMurray]

My question is "are there any that are numerically superior to the guns from previous sourcebooks?" Those are the ones that the group's going to be looking closely at.

[JoeNapalm]

A 1911 may not be numerically superior...apparently archaic ammo is much less space-efficient than the new stuff, for instance...

But style - in terms of style, the 1911 is a vastly superior weapon! 

(Oh, and I only briefly glanced through the sourcebook, Ethan, but I believe the 1911 has the Vintage quality, and cannot be outfitted with a Smartgun rig.)

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[CanRay]

The Ares Predator I-Knock Off might be a better "Throw-Away" pistol.  Caseless ammo (Probably the same 10mm Caseless the Mk. IV uses.), it can mount older smartlinks (Which require some software and a fiber optic cable, NBD.), and, well, it's an Ares Predator.

I find out you throw out an actual vintage Ares Predator I, however...   

The Colt 1991 (And it's predecessor the 1911A1) are probably only being made by knock-off companies now, not any legitimate manufacturers.  Not exactly a good idea in a lot of ways, but for a drop piece, it's not that bad an idea.

[KommissarK]

Yeah, the 1911/1991, whatever you wanna call it is indeed awesome. And yes, the vintage quality does make it a bit rough, but it still makes for an excellent throwaway, without coming across as "too big" like an ak-97, or "too small" like a hold out pistol. It all depends on what situation you're going into, but I'm always a fan of the saying how a m1911 has just the right amount of rounds for the problem. "If it takes more than 7 shots, its something you can't handle on your own."

Numerically, alot of the guns are pretty "bad"; the vintage quality really hurts (no electronic upgrades, all other mods cost 2x. You can see it in the demo pdf on DTRPG).

Many come with imaging scopes, often with vision enhancements to the scopes, so cybereyes become a bit redundant. These things are great for magicians/adepts who can't really allow themselves to get the upgrade; magicians in particular with the need for non-electronic vision for spells to work (thus making glasses/contacts/goggles a hassle).

Some are pretty awesome, the M4A1 has nice damage while still classed as an SMG, and being relatively cheap for such an upgrade. That one machine pistol is also pretty cool with -1 AP. The xfactor 2 is pretty cool for its increased ammo supply/shotgun, but a bit pricy. That one assault cannon at the very end with the built in response 6 commlink is pretty cool.

[Ethan]

A 1911 may not be numerically superior...apparently archaic ammo is much less space-efficient than the new stuff, for instance...

But style - in terms of style, the 1911 is a vastly superior weapon! 

(Oh, and I only briefly glanced through the sourcebook, Ethan, but I believe the 1911 has the Vintage quality, and cannot be outfitted with a Smartgun rig.)

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Physical upgrades are possible, they just cost twice the amount. The Vintage quality is oddly written... "upgrades" as in Modifications or Accessories? Plopping on a laser sight on an M1911 or M1991 shouldn't be a problem I think.

Numerically superior? The B&P is good with an internal RC of 1 (plus a foregrip) which makes it superior to most other Machine Pistols. The bad part is that it's a Machine Pistol which is usually overlooked. The Onotari Equalizer has a -1 AP but the good ol' Ingram Smartgun X still beats either (as a SMG).

The Pred 1 seems like a good throwaway (the knock offs at least). The guns add variety, but not much extra power.

[CanRay]

Variety without power creep is always good.

And vintage weapons might have a bit of an advantage when it comes to certain things.  After all, if you have the Colt M1911A1 that's been in the family since WWII, it might not be as difficult to enchant as a recently manufactured firearm out of a Nanoforge or Drone Factory, eh?

[Mäx]

Some are pretty awesome, the M4A1 has nice damage while still classed as an SMG, and being relatively cheap for such an upgrade. That one machine pistol is also pretty cool with -1 AP.

Those 2 guns are a reason why this PDF should contain a section that has stat changes to guns in other books to be used if you include the ones in this one into your game, ie. change to 6P for all SMG:s marked as carbines and change to AP -1 for P93 Praetor.

[Ethan]

Variety without power creep is always good.

And vintage weapons might have a bit of an advantage when it comes to certain things.  After all, if you have the Colt M1911A1 that's been in the family since WWII, it might not be as difficult to enchant as a recently manufactured firearm out of a Nanoforge or Drone Factory, eh?

Quite true, the Object Resistance should be comparably lower... Hmm, they'd be easier to Destroy/Demolish with spells too, no?

I dunno Max, the other guns haven't really been overshadowed by the two firearms there. And the Praetor's a crazy bargain already (I know it's an example). I like what they did, they gave us variety--useful variety, without any power creep.

Besides, the only Carbines are the AK-97 and the M24 Water Carbine, and both have other things to recommend them. Also, the one with the -1 AP is a Machine Pistol not an SMG.


The Walther P109 is a solid SA Heavy Pistol. Though a Vintage piece it comes with 1 RC and a 12(c) capacity, all for 500¥. 66% more expensive than the M1991 though, but still a cheapy.

[Mäx]

1.Besides, the only Carbines are the AK-97 and the M24 Water Carbine, and both have other things to recommend them.
2.Also, the one with the -1 AP is a Machine Pistol not an SMG.

1.If M-4A1 Carbine does 6P, then there absolutely no sense that AK-97 and AK-147 carbine versions do 5P.
2.HK MP-7 also has -1AP, thats why i said P93 should have it too, as it's based on the P90 that fires same kind of armor piercing ammo as MP-7 does.

On other thinks, the Ogre Hammer gave me a character idea of a Hacker/Sniper who uses it internal commlink for his hacking

[Ethan]

It's probably a continuity thing. Besides, if these modern weapons had the +1 DV or the -1 AP then there'd be no need for the Vintage ones. The Praetor's cheaper than the MP-7 and has a bonus 1 RC (and electronic firing for only +200¥). If it had -1 AP too it'd be better than even the Ingram Smartgun X.

I'm fine with supplements not modifying the main book or previous supplements. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't consolidate and update all of these later on in a comprehensive 4.75 edition though.

The Ogre Hammer Assault Cannon's a bargain as well. Wouldn't a commlink with those specs alone cost as much as the thing at 38000¥?

[CanRay]

16,800¥ using a Meta Link case and custom innards.

Just like the good old days with the old Cyberdeck that's cracked open and everyone inside custom built, eh Bull?

[Ethan]

Hmm, somehow I thought it'd be more expensive than that. But hey, at least the Ogre Hammer's just one piece of Restricted Gear.

[CanRay]

CommLinks are hella cheap compared to cyberdecks.  Mass production, I guess.

[Mäx]

But hey, at least the Ogre Hammer's just one piece of Restricted Gear.

Yeah, it's a nice package for one RG quality, i just think it's really sad that it doesn't come with a smartlink.