Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Ninja137 on <05-15-13/2343:52>
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Would houseruling a bow back to the 12R cap mess the game up too bad, or maybe 10R?
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Let me guess, you want a troll bow at max power for a starting character? Honestly these things are so cheap why not just buy it when the game starts?
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Let me guess, you want a troll bow at max power for a starting character? Honestly these things are so cheap why not just buy it when the game starts?
Did I say I was attempting to start with it? No? Then why are you instantly being hostile like that?
All I asked was whether or not it sounded like undoing the errata that caps Bows at a 8, and moving it back up to either 12 or 10, seemed like it'd be decent.
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Would it mess up the game? Probably not in the long term. In the short term you are turning something that you would need the restricted gear quality to get into something you can get without it. So is that fair to others who may want a different piece of gear that is above the 12 availability for a starting character? Not really.
Really you ask a question about a weapon known to be a problem with high strength characters (trolls in particular) so you'll forgive me if I wonder if you have the worst intentions about asking. Honestly, the only place adjusting the availability like this will matter is during character creation. Thus my assumption. Why don't you provide your reasoning for wanting to do so.
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Would it mess up the game? Probably not in the long term. In the short term you are turning something that you would need the restricted gear quality to get into something you can get without it. So is that fair to others who may want a different piece of gear that is above the 12 availability for a starting character? Not really.
Really you ask a question about a weapon known to be a problem with high strength characters (trolls in particular) so you'll forgive me if I wonder if you have the worst intentions about asking. Honestly, the only place adjusting the availability like this will matter is during character creation. Thus my assumption. Why don't you provide your reasoning for wanting to do so.
....You do know that a Bow, regardless of rating, is Availability 2, right? There is not, and never has been as far as I am aware, a requirement to take Restricted Gear.
Also, how is it known to be a problem? In order to do damage on par with a gun user, at lower ranges mind you, you need to invest heavily in it. You need martial arts, Quick Draw, a high rating bow you can't even start with because you can't start with anything over Rating 6 at character creation, not to mention the fact that you're carrying around a bow that is likely almost as tall as you are.
Meanwhile, the Street Sam grabs an AR and uses FA to pump out easily comparable damage, has other ammo types, higher range, doesn't require nearly as many abilities to pull it off, and has a weapon which is easier to conceal.
I'm not adjusting the Availability, and I never SAID anything about the availability. When I said 12R, I mean 12 Rating cap instead of the post-errata 8 Rating cap. Or as an alternative, removing the cap on the hits you can achieve so that a bow can actually do damage, or some other change to actually make a bow a usable weapon to have as a focus. The entire reason I bring this up at all is because I'm currently in a party of characters with a rather low overall amount of combat ability, and I don't just want to sit there with a gun. It feels boring, after so many other characters like it. A woodsman type character that uses a bow, has tracking and outdoors skills, and other flavor stuff seemed like it'd be fun. But as is, the bow is inferior to a gun to the extent that there really isn't any point in taking it, especially as a parties primary combatant.
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Yeah, common notation for Rating 12 is R12, not 12R, which almost always means Availability 12, Resitricted Legality.
No idea what it breaks, besides making people look at it funny when they realize a bow is doing base damage on par with an Assault Cannon at 10P+. Bows are weird in that they are STR+2, rather than STR/2+X like every other damage in the game that scales with STR.
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Yeah, common notation for Rating 12 is R12, not 12R, which almost always means Availability 12, Resitricted Legality.
No idea what it breaks, besides making people look at it funny when they realize a bow is doing base damage on par with an Assault Cannon at 10P+. Bows are weird in that they are STR+2, rather than STR/2+X like every other damage in the game that scales with STR.
Bows are also a bit better at transfering energy than throwing something/hitting something. If they weren't, why would people use them over just throwing stuff?
EDIT: The bow also has less range, doesn't share the same skill as an Assault Cannon and therefore doesn't give access to things like LMGs, grenade launchers, rockets, or other toys like it. It also lacks any form of -AP, especially compared to the Thunderstruck, which gets -1/2 AP before anything else.
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If you want to do nasty damage with a bow, it's better to ask your GM to allow for you to get Mercy software. Combine that with a Martial/Adept Quick Draw, the Smartgun required, and an Improved Laser Range Finder, and suddenly you're capable of inflicting 26P once every 2 IPs and a mere 13P in the other IP.
(Explosive arrows are still +1 DV each right?)
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My misunderstanding as the notation you used was for availability. How am I supposed to know you mean damage if you are using a different notation? Also, if you look in SR4A, you will see that bows have an availability of 2 times the rating of the bow, rather than a flat 2 as you posted. So to get even a rating 7 or 8 bow would indeed require the restricted gear quality at character creation.
If want to uncap the damage go for it. It isn't likely to do much more than start an arms race though I will point out that comparing bows, which are resisted by the lower (and many times much lower) impact armour, with guns isn't really worth while. They each have a purpose.
In the future try asking your question in such a manner that it is easy to understand what you are actually asking. It avoids these sort of situations.
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Keep in mind he's asking from a player perspective, not a GM perspective. With that in mind, I think he's better off with the Mercy software and a quickdraw ability. Then you have Fire, nock arrow as free, Fire for 1 IP, and the second IP is nock as Free, Fire, nock as Simple, hence 26P and 13P. It gives you a much better damage while keeping the Rating-8 restriction, and helps with a more balanced character because you're not boosting your Strength to 12.
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Heh. Balanced? While doing 26P and 13P with a bow? Well OK. And yeah I get that it is 3 shots to achieve that damage but still... It is completely silent and resisted by the lower impact armour value. Not sure I would call it balanced but I suppose that is more balanced than going with a rating 12 bow. Whatever gets the job done I suppose.
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I mean the character will be more balanced if he has 8 Strength rather than 12, attribute-wise. ^_^
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My misunderstanding as the notation you used was for availability. How am I supposed to know you mean damage if you are using a different notation? Also, if you look in SR4A, you will see that bows have an availability of 2 times the rating of the bow, rather than a flat 2 as you posted. So to get even a rating 7 or 8 bow would indeed require the restricted gear quality at character creation.
If want to uncap the damage go for it. It isn't likely to do much more than start an arms race though I will point out that comparing bows, which are resisted by the lower (and many times much lower) impact armour, with guns isn't really worth while. They each have a purpose.
In the future try asking your question in such a manner that it is easy to understand what you are actually asking. It avoids these sort of situations.
You cannot, even with Restricted Gear, get a rating 7+ bow, or anything else at all, at character creation. And incredibly enough, no they actually don't.
Collapsible Bow (STR Min. + 1)P — 4R Rating x 125¥
Bow (STR Min +2)P — 2 Rating x 100¥
The Errata doesn't change that anywhere. Neither bow has an availability of Rating x2, not that it matters because there is a hardcap on the max rating of gear purchased at character creation.
All gear is subject to gamemaster approval—just because you can
purchase something doesn’t mean you should be allowed to get it at
the start of the game. Finally, no piece of gear purchased at character
creation can have a rating higher than 6 or an Availability higher than
12 (for more information, see Availability & Buying Gear, p. 312).
I also can't seem to find where it actually says what armor that Bows/Other Projectile Weapons are resisted with Impact, meanwhile I have found the table on page 151 SR4AA which says this:
Ballistic Projectiles
Bow 0–STR To STR x 10 To STR x 30 To STR x 60
Light Crossbow 0–6 7–24 25–60 61–120
Medium Crossbow 0–9 10–36 37–90 91–150
Heavy Crossbow 0–15 16–45 46–120 121–180
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Keep in mind he's asking from a player perspective, not a GM perspective. With that in mind, I think he's better off with the Mercy software and a quickdraw ability. Then you have Fire, nock arrow as free, Fire for 1 IP, and the second IP is nock as Free, Fire, nock as Simple, hence 26P and 13P. It gives you a much better damage while keeping the Rating-8 restriction, and helps with a more balanced character because you're not boosting your Strength to 12.
Krav Maga and Quick Draw/Iajitsu open up the potential for two attacks in a round, it's been gone over before here. It's still quite a bit more than needed for guns to get roughly comparable damage or worse damage, and guns lack the arbitrary cap on their damage.
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Guns are guns, though, and a bow is rather exotic. With Mercy software you can really pack a punch with a bow, at a level that no firearm can. So if your GM allows it, all the more power to you. It's a heavy investment but it sure pays back. If the GM doesn't go for it, that's a shame but honestly, bows don't necessarily need to be able to kill just as badly as guns. Sometimes all you want is a legal weapon with which you can do 12P damage without the cops having any reason to ever pull you over and fine you.
Edit: According to HeroLab, bows go against Ballistic.
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Just as an example here, let's grab the actual damage values.
Two examples, one with an AR and one with a bow, both assuming an Agility of 5 and a Skill of 6, specialization, smartlink, and adequate Recoil Compensation.
The AR we'll use is an Ares HVAR, firing two Long Bursts for +5 DV, total dicepool of 15 and an average of five hits for the shooter. Defender probably manages to get somewhere around 1-2 hits, so we'll assume he gets lucky and gets two hits. Base DV of 5P (Or 6S(e) if we use SnS, plus the other goodies that come with it)+5P from Long Burst +3P from Net Hits. Total damage? 13P, roughly. 14S(e) with SnS rounds, in addition to electricity damage modifiers. The second shot likely has a 1 higher DV due to the defender losing a die on the dodge test for having already been shot, so 14/15 DV. Resistances would really be dependent on our target, but if we go with a fairly standard Armor Jacket, they probably get somewhere around 2-3 hits, so we'll assume 3 hits. Total DV? 1 shot at 10P/11S(e), another shot at 11P/12S(e). Nothing requires to obtain this other than nuyen for adequate RC, which isn't really hard to get at all.
And now a Rating 6 Bow, the highest we can start with. Assuming a same dicepool of 15, we likely average 5 or so hits. Base DV on our bow is 6+2, with a maximum of 9 regardless of how well we shoot this person. Our target dodges, netting 2 hits and reducing our effective hits by 2, still enough to cap us at the damage value of 9. The target rolls to resist, netting 3 hits on oth shots, only suffering about 6S damage from a shot on average. Total possible damage? Absolute maximum of 18, most likely less.
Now, what is required to get each of these? Well, you can just straight up buy an Ares HVAR at character creation without any qualities required, only extra thing needed is to grab adequate Recoil Compensation, which isn't difficult.
What is required to do damage that is even vaguely in the same ballpark with a bow? Almost an absolute top of the line bow, two ranks of Martial Arts so we can even fire twice in a round, probably MRSI software so our shots have a better chance against armor which will require Restricted Gear to get. Total cost? Minimum of 15 BP to grab Krav Maga, Iajitsu, and Restricted Gear so we can get MRSI software, so that we can do around half the damage of an AR. The AR will do slightly less if not a High-Velocity weapon, but still easily outstrips the bow in terms of both raw damage, -AP, range, ease of acquisition, and the effort needed to get it to work.
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Are you going full RC on that HVAR or are you still assuming Long Bursts defy Accumulative Recoil?
And yes, a Bow won't be as good as an Assault Rifle. It is, after all, a bow. Compared to a pistol or anything else the cops won't get on your ass for, it's a decent weapon. Compared to the dangerous weapons, not a chance.
And since a bow is cheap, don't include Restricted Gear in its costs or cap it at Rating 6, just assume you're getting it after chargen.
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Are you going full RC on that HVAR or are you still assuming Long Bursts defy Accumulative Recoil?
And yes, a Bow won't be as good as an Assault Rifle. It is, after all, a bow. Compared to a pistol or anything else the cops won't get on your ass for, it's a decent weapon. Compared to the dangerous weapons, not a chance.
I assumed full RC, enough to compensate for the entire double burst.
It is, after all, a game. A game where, even when spending vastly more resources to even get something to work at all, you get hardly half the effectiveness. You don't gain the concealability benefit of a pistol, the ammo types of a gun, the range, the -AP mods, suppressive fire, or much at all beside a quiter weapon. I'm not saying that a Bow needs to outstrip an Assault Cannon, but it should at least be a weapon that doesn't get absolutely boned because people whined hard enough to get it nerfed because it didn't fit their idea of SR.
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With quickdraw, you can inflict 2x12PvB from a distance without a sound and without the enemy getting a chance to duck for cover, using nothing more than a completely street-legal weapon. You can take it with you through military checkpoints since you are, after all, just going hunting or something. It still outbeats the damage of any melee weapon at that.
If you take a militaristic one, you can smuggle it with you and put it together, then annihilate the enemy with a one-turn-kill, something not even the Barrett 121 can guarantee. So it has its upsides, really. Without Mercy software it's a nice quiet legally-transportable weapon. With Mercy software it provides other snipers with highly-capable competition. So it's quite nice already.
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The newest PDF lists bows (and arrows) as having an availability of Rating x 2.
Also, as far as what they are defending with in terms of armor, it would be Ballistic
BALLISTIC ARMOR
Ballistic armor protects against projectiles that deliver large amounts of
kinetic energy to a small area in short amounts of time, such as bullets,
bolts, and arrows.
Now, as far the maximum Strength allowed, I can't really speak for the game balance, but I think it does make sense that there is a limit to how much useable strength a bow could support. When you think about what a Strength 8 means in terms of pure power, even with advanced materials there is a limit to how much you could make a bow able to support, and this seems reasonable...
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Now, as far the maximum Strength allowed, I can't really speak for the game balance, but I think it does make sense that there is a limit to how much useable strength a bow could support. When you think about what a Strength 8 means in terms of pure power, even with advanced materials there is a limit to how much you could make a bow able to support...
Not in practical terms. The materials will always be capable of being stronger than the (Meta)human, that's not a problem even without future tech composites.
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On topic, I'd say that raising the strength cap for bows is a bad idea. It makes for ridiculously powerful bows, which is ridiculous. Back off-topic with you folks, come on. You're comparing a bow to a high velocity assault rifle. The only thing more ridiculous than a bow coming close to doing what that assault rifle does? People comparing a freaking bow to an assault rifle. Let me illustrate:
Person A) Hmm... assault rifle seem weak to me.
Person B) Why do you say that?
Person A) Well, this nuclear bomb does way more damage.
Person B) Oh, but you see, assault rifles have their own benefits... availability, stealth, portability.
Person A) Sure, sure, sure, shut up. Listen, my AR doesn't have as much damage as a nuke, no matter how much work I put into it.
Person B) ...
Really. It's a bow. There are limits. Not limits to construction materials, limits to credulity.
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I want a bow that can shoot the sun out of the sky.
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That's called Trid Phantasm.
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I think it's called Icarus' Revenge.
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bows can still be quite deadly. I've seen a crossbow shoot a bolt one inch into a massive oak plate at 100 yards. A modern (to Shadowrun standards) longbow specifically made for trolls should be able to do the same trick. In another time that kind of bow would be called ballista :) And a trained mundane, unaugmented archer should be able to fire 20 shots per minute (again, personally seen it happen). Mostly in shadowrun you don't need the long ranges of assault or sniper riffles. Add melee hardening to your bow and you have a staff in case the enemy closes into melee range.
And with the NAN revival and the two Tirs, I assume that the bow also would get some cultural backing, making it a weapon of choice for a number of people simply for it's cultural values.
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The bow is also popular with nonmetahuman sapients like Centaurs and possibly Sasquatches. Unfortunately, there just isn't any ranged weapon that does well for a Pixie besides magic.
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bows can still be quite deadly. I've seen a crossbow shoot a bolt one inch into a massive oak plate at 100 yards. A modern (to Shadowrun standards) longbow specifically made for trolls should be able to do the same trick. In another time that kind of bow would be called ballista :) And a trained mundane, unaugmented archer should be able to fire 20 shots per minute (again, personally seen it happen). Mostly in shadowrun you don't need the long ranges of assault or sniper riffles. Add melee hardening to your bow and you have a staff in case the enemy closes into melee range.
And with the NAN revival and the two Tirs, I assume that the bow also would get some cultural backing, making it a weapon of choice for a number of people simply for it's cultural values.
That's pretty legit. Though of course, I'm sure a gun could do more damage to said wood plank from farther away. I think part of the issue is that bows are a bit slower in shadowrun than they are in the hands of someone trained to use them in real life. I don't think the issue is their damage output. It's like with melee combat-- The damage is fine, but trying to actually accomplish something with it seems to be unintended by the rules.
I want a bow that can shoot the sun out of the sky.
Forget the others, you want Auriel's Bow.
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Unfortunately, there just isn't any ranged weapon that does well for a Pixie besides magic.
Nerf Panther Assault Cannon? ;D
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20 shots per minute is 1 shot per combat turn. I'm not sure why you're implying it should be faster.
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Unfortunately, there just isn't any ranged weapon that does well for a Pixie besides magic.
Rigged anthroform drone wielding a bow. Or Panther Assault Cannon.
:)
-k
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You've seen this, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g
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You've seen this, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g
Trollbow Machine Gun-Style Martial Arts Technique?
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You've seen this, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g
Mind blown O.o
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Wow, he's incredible.
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You've seen this, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g
I love how the video keeps mentioning that modern archers kept saying it was impossible; gotta love hubris. We know from surviving Roman reports that the Huns tended to decimate Roman formations by firing an arrow first up in the air, and then immediately firing another more level at their targets. The Romans would raise their shields to protect against the first arrows, and then get hit by the second. Add in the fact that the Huns would do this again and again on horseback, while circling their enemy. But noooo, modern archers can't do it so therefore it's impossible!
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Well, time to start imitating tellevision.
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Well, time to start imitating tellevision.
You mean we weren't supposed to be doing things from TV?
*throws away a stack of Die Hard VHS labelled "resource material"*
For real though, even without that video, it's not silly to ask that your Shadowrun character be able to do things a bit more "cinematically" than is capable in real life. Nobody calls bullshit when legolas or any other fantasy archer does impossible things with arrows, and Shadowrun is also a fantasy game.
[spoiler]Also... You're telling me no one ever thought "I'll just pull out more than one arrow from my quiver?" The video says "The old master technique is to hold the arrow in hand and not have them in the quiver."[/spoiler]
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In another time that kind of bow would be called ballista :)
Ballistae used torsion springs. ;)
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I haven't seen anyone claiming that you can't do amazing things with bows in Shadowrun. This is an odd direction the conversation has taken. Very cool video, though.
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I think it's important to note that that trick archer guy is quite impressive, but he is still basically a trick shootist. You don't base whole combat systems around what the best quick-draw six gun guy does shooting at balloons, or act like the accuracy of Olympic competitors with specialized pistols is the baseline accuracy expected in a combat system, so you shouldn't try to base an archery combat system around what one gimmicky fast-shooting archer can do.
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I think it's important to note that that trick archer guy is quite impressive, but he is still basically a trick shootist. You don't base whole combat systems around what the best quick-draw six gun guy does shooting at balloons, or act like the accuracy of Olympic competitors with specialized pistols is the baseline accuracy expected in a combat system, so you shouldn't try to base an archery combat system around what one gimmicky fast-shooting archer can do.
True, but 20 shots/minute means 1 shot per combat round. For a trained, non-augmented person this is possible without being a trick shooter. Add augmentations to get it to this video's trick level and still be accurate.
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I wouldn't call that gimicky, since he's using a normal recurve bow and arrows, and trick shootists as far as I'm aware are using normal pistols. The nebulous combat turns rather poorly simulate firearms fire rate, on anything but a grenade machine gun. Accuracy on the other hand, not so bad, police officers miss 6 out of 10 shots on average. And in a statistical firefight, first shot accuracy is quite poor. Thus most compact self defense oriented firearms have around a 12 round magazine. More if the law will allow for it.
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If we assume SR5 will have a way for a bow-user to nock an arrow as Free Action, then an archer with high Reaction and Intuition (Lighting Reflexes comes to mind) who would always have Initiative 11+ and thus 2 IPs per Combat Turn, would be able to fire 60 arrows per minute. That's non-augmented.
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Actually, Aryeonos, 'cowboy action' shooters typically do modify their guns to increase the firing rate, including things like requiring less of a trigger pull, and so on. This is true both for rifles and pistols. Granted, I know this primarily from watching shows like Sons of Guns and American Guns, where they've had some of these trick shot shooters come on to get guns.
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Sons of Guns, those backwater hooligans? While actually competent with machines their inventiveness is... at best jury rigging.
I wouldn't doubt they would reduce the trigger weight, but they are just modifying regular guns, not those retro futuristic laser blaster things they use in the olympics.
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Hair Triggers were done in the Old West, as well as in competitions today.
Just don't carry them when drunk or you'll kill your feet.
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But how are we supposed to live up to the stereotypical cowboy, as a whiskied up, horse riding, fast shootan rogue?
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By keeping your finger out of the trigger guard - also known as practicing the most basic of firearms safety?
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But how are we supposed to live up to the stereotypical cowboy, as a whiskied up, horse riding, fast shootan rogue?
Wimps, all of them.
Try imitating The Black Donnellys.
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With a specialize martial Art Form that reduces some of the penalties. Consult your local GM for specifications.
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Are you going full RC on that HVAR or are you still assuming Long Bursts defy Accumulative Recoil?
And yes, a Bow won't be as good as an Assault Rifle. It is, after all, a bow. Compared to a pistol or anything else the cops won't get on your ass for, it's a decent weapon. Compared to the dangerous weapons, not a chance.
I assumed full RC, enough to compensate for the entire double burst.
It is, after all, a game. A game where, even when spending vastly more resources to even get something to work at all, you get hardly half the effectiveness. You don't gain the concealability benefit of a pistol, the ammo types of a gun, the range, the -AP mods, suppressive fire, or much at all beside a quiter weapon. I'm not saying that a Bow needs to outstrip an Assault Cannon, but it should at least be a weapon that doesn't get absolutely boned because people whined hard enough to get it nerfed because it didn't fit their idea of SR.
And I say, Chargen Caps at 6 stands no matter how people whine to get it removed because it didnt fit their idea that Bows should be from the very beginning more powerfull than 0,44 magnum handgun.
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Sichr: It's not just about Rating 6 at chargen without Restricted Gear, the point is Rating 8 max (SR4a, stealth-errata) vs Rating 12 max (SR4a older edition which I have myself, and SR4 iirc).
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I think just an uncapping of the hits that you can apply would make them viable, because as is there isn't much point in really specializing in them. You barely get any effective damage potential out of it.
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I think just an uncapping of the hits that you can apply would make them viable, because as is there isn't much point in really specializing in them. You barely get any effective damage potential out of it.
Sorry, what do you mean here?
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I think just an uncapping of the hits that you can apply would make them viable, because as is there isn't much point in really specializing in them. You barely get any effective damage potential out of it.
Sorry, what do you mean here?
Bow damage is capped at Rating x1.5.
If you have a Rating 8 Bow, your base damage is 10. After subtracting whatever hits an enemy gets from dodging you, you cannot do more than 12P. Doesn't matter if you manage to get a 25+ pool to roll for Archery and get all hits, you cannot do more than 12P at all.
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Oh, right, from the pdf version. It's pretty stupid and I've always just ignored that/much preferred the version with a Strength cap of 8 (but no tacked-on cap to the hits you can score).
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... 12P isn't much damage to you from what is, effectively, a completely silent weapon?
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Lol. Just lol. Silenced Assault cannon. Even with possible called shot. Btw where is this successes cap mentioned? We are still talking about SRA
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Lol. Just lol. Silenced Assault cannon. Even with possible called shot. Btw where is this successes cap mentioned? We are still talking about SRA
It was a kind of stealth-change in the old pdf (not the print) version of the core book. Word for word the same sentences at first, but then they go off the rails. Where the print version talked about arrow ratings (and had a Strength cap of 8), the pdf version instead put in a straight cap on damage (but had a Strength cap of 12).
I mean, 12P damage is still nothing to sneeze at, but it was lame that just one type of weapon had that sort of mechanic. You could stab someone as hard as you wanted, shoot them with some peashooter holdout but still get a hojillion successes, punch someone without your hand breaking, and on and on and on...but just this one thing had arrows magically stop at a certain damage value, no matter how well you rolled.
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That rule is removed in the latest PDF version. At least I've never seen it. So people having issues with this silly rule just need to update their PDFs and it goes away. Problem solved as it was never in a print version.
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Another thing to note is that Bows lose out on BF/FA modes, suppressive fire, and quite a bit of range over weapons that would typically do comparable damage.
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Well, it is bow, isnt it? You want FA, buy Stoner. You want 1,5 km range, Buy B121. You want to go medieval, byu bow, well dont expect the same thing as from Panther
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Well, it is bow, isnt it? You want FA, buy Stoner. You want 1,5 km range, Buy B121. You want to go medieval, byu bow, well dont expect the same thing as from Panther
That isn't really what I'm saying here. With a bow, you get your base damage+ hits, which is pretty respectable damage. With a gun, you get more range, BF, FA, suppressive fire, and more types of ammo. Plus being able to use a bow on something really even approaching the same level as a gun takes a pretty large investment of qualities and powers.
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lol. I`m jus saying that it is a bow. Obsolescent for maybe 500 years. Or more. Also shurikens and throwing knives aren`t as effective as grenades. Same problem.
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Another thing to note is that Bows lose out on BF/FA modes, suppressive fire, and quite a bit of range over weapons that would typically do comparable damage.
Yeah, but don't go pretending that they don't have their own very substantial advantage.
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it is a bow. Obsolescent for maybe 500 years
Used for different applications of that same age-old problem: how does one man kill another. Bows may have been surpassed, but they still have their niche. I think part of the issue with some of this question of bows is attempting to compare certain stats between a bow and a gun when that isn't the reason the bow is still around. It's like comparing oranges and grapefruit - sure, they're both citrus, but they're different fruit.
Sure, bows and assault rifles are both weapons, but they're different ranged weapons.
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That isn't really what I'm saying here. With a bow, you get your base damage+ hits, which is pretty respectable damage. With a gun, you get more range, BF, FA, suppressive fire, and more types of ammo. Plus being able to use a bow on something really even approaching the same level as a gun takes a pretty large investment of qualities and powers.
If you thinks bows are so terrible, buy a gun. If you think bows are still worth taking for style and cool points, then stick with bows. Purposefully going with a bow and then complaining that they can't do everything an assault rifle can do is like becoming a master fencer in real life and then bitching because you can't stab someone at sniper rifle ranges. If what you want is all that other stuff, then take the weapon that gives you all that other stuff.
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Sichr: It's not just about Rating 6 at chargen without Restricted Gear, the point is Rating 8 max (SR4a, stealth-errata) vs Rating 12 max (SR4a older edition which I have myself, and SR4 iirc).
Restricted Gear only affects the Availability maximum. The limitation of Rating 6 at character generation still holds.
And I say, Chargen Caps at 6 stands no matter how people whine to get it removed because it didnt fit their idea that Bows should be from the very beginning more powerfull than 0,44 magnum handgun.
Considering that the Rating 6 limit in character generation can not be avoided even with Restricted Gear, there honestly is no reason to put such a hard limit on bows. With there being exceptionally strong Trolls out there, it would stand to reason that there would be bows out there that can make use of their full--massive--strength.
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Sichr: It's not just about Rating 6 at chargen without Restricted Gear, the point is Rating 8 max (SR4a, stealth-errata) vs Rating 12 max (SR4a older edition which I have myself, and SR4 iirc).
Restricted Gear only affects the Availability maximum. The limitation of Rating 6 at character generation still holds.
And I say, Chargen Caps at 6 stands no matter how people whine to get it removed because it didnt fit their idea that Bows should be from the very beginning more powerfull than 0,44 magnum handgun.
Considering that the Rating 6 limit in character generation can not be avoided even with Restricted Gear, there honestly is no reason to put such a hard limit on bows. With there being exceptionally strong Trolls out there, it would stand to reason that there would be bows out there that can make use of their full--massive--strength.
Even if you could avoid the Rating limit, an R12 bow would have an Availability of 24, which Restricted Gear wouldn't help with, so this isn't about chargen at all. This is solely about the strongest bow doing 11P-12P damage depending on net hits, or 15P-18P depending on net hits.
- 11P-12P is already comparable to sport rifles if you're using regular ammo. The strongest sport rifle, with 2 net hits, is 11P/-1 vs. the bow's 12P/-0, 12P/-1 vs. 12P/-0 with 3, assuming regular ammo.
Range-wise, assuming Strength 8, Medium+ Ranges are 80-240-480, somewhere inbetween SMGs and Assault Rifles - which is inferior to the sport rifle's.
Of course, if the Rating x1.5 cap on bow damage doesn't apply, you're simply dealing with a 10P/-0 base vs. the PJSS's 9P/-5 base with APDS rounds. - 15P-18P is comparable to rockets. Getting hit in the chest with an arrow would do about as much damage as getting hit in the chest with a High Explosive rocket, and arrows are easier to aim than rockets. In addition, Medium+ Ranges are 120-360-720, which is similar to the assault rifle's 150-350-550 but with an Extreme Range that's comparable to the sporting rifle's 750.
Remove the damage cap, and the bow's damage is 14P/-0 base vs. the high explosive rocket's 14P/-2 base - and that's only if the rocket hits you (or explodes within 1 meter, anyway). Granted, the rocket goes against Impact, which will probably be 1 or 2 points lower, but still, at 1 meter away the rocket drops to 12P/-2.
Perhaps I need to emphasize this. An arrow to the chest, assuming no Called Shot has been made, would do damage similar to a 750¥ rocket that explodes next to you.
In other words, you'd get a silent weapon (not sure if there are rules on Perception checks for hearing or seeing the arrow in-flight and deducing the shooter's position based on that) that deals damage comparable to rockets with roughly assault rifle ranges (an an extreme range comparable to that of a sporting rifle), and that's with non-restricted gear and without modifications or accessories. I'm guessing that is why they stealth-nerfed it.
Semi-related: am I reading the Restricted Gear rules correctly that instead of using it at chargen, you can save it for a post-chargen instant purchase, bypassing the R6 limit and allowing you to buy an R8 bow in the first session if you can scrounge together the nuyen?
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Yes. Also, bow availability doesn't multiply with the rating increase. It's just a flat 2.
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Yes. Also, bow availability doesn't multiply with the rating increase. It's just a flat 2.
Wait, really? Because HeroLab uses Rating * 2 for bow Availability, while it uses Availability -, 5¥ for regular arrows.
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Sorry, I'm totally wrong. I think I read that in this thread, and Chummer does it wrong. SR4A says on page 315 that the availability is Rating x 2. Stupidly, the collapsible bow doesn't have a multiplying availability. It's 4R flat. Page 18 of Arsenal.
I'd be much obliged if someone checked their Arsenal pdf on page 18 shows the table correctly. Mine sure doesn't. The availabilities are under the AP column header, and the costs are under the availability column header. There's nothing under cost.
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My copy of Arsenal does not list an availability multiplier for the collapsible bow. It also incorrectly lists the bow with only a 2 availability. Catalyst could help avoid these sort of confusions by trying to keep their editing on track. It isn't really that big a deal to check two books and make sure your numbers are consistent.
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Considering they have issues with even making the books self-consistent (Fame, Gearhead), I'd say it's a bigger deal than you think.
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I think this is partially because Arsenal predates the Stealth-errata where bows received an Availability based on rating and arrows became more expensive at a higher rating. Which is silly given how the other arrows don't.
HeroLab simply uses fixed costs for all arrows, while Collapsible Bow in HeroLab is 4R+Ratingx2. So a Rating-8 Collapsible Bow is Availability 20R.
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My point was predating a particular book means when you put out an update or errata or whatever, the other books gets edited to match the new rule. They edited in a new availability for bows quite some time ago in SR4A and in the meanwhile they released a new Arsenal with cover art and updated page references. They could have also just as easily updated the bow availability at the same time.
Editing seems to be an area of publishing where Catalyst frequently drops the ball. I don't know why exactly but it is something they should look into.
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I hope that now that they're not stuck with the FanPro past it will improve.
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Seeing as this is about bows, i was wondering if you can make a Victorinox SmartStaff into a bow and what stats it would have?
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Editing seems to be an area of publishing where Catalyst frequently drops the ball. I don't know why exactly but it is something they should look into.
Shadowrun has thousands of fans with years to find tiny mistakes. The editors have multiple books and limited deadlines, and when mistakes are found, there are (at least sometimes) reprints to correct.
The meatspace group I game with alternated with Rifts (published by Palladium Books). There wasn't a week where the GM didn't make a houseruling because 2 books would say 3 things (or 12 books wouldn't say a single thing). That's bad horrible editing, and I don't believe that they've ever released a reprint.
As far as the bow, I think that the smartstaff was broken in being able to do anything, but you could make a victorinox weapon that unfurls into a bow, it would basically be a reskinned Collapsible Bow. Personally I thought the smartstaff was implausible because it could go from Cudgel to Shortsword, if it had been various types of blades or blunt weapons then I think it would've been much more feasible - that wouldn't require as much structure change.
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Errata taking time is understandable.
However, when their German distributor produces errata-fixed edition of books based largely off errata documents provided by Catalyst, and the same books in English still have no errata YEARS later, that excuse starts to wear a little thin.
I wish I could tell my boss "we don't have the time" when he dumps yet another load of work on, but he'd just roar "Make the time!". Assuming he didn't fire me.
-k
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I wish I could tell my boss "we don't have the time" when he dumps yet another load of work on, but he'd just roar "Make the time!". Assuming he didn't fire me.
Which kind of illustrates our, individual, perspectives on the matter -- you do what your boss tells you to do. Not just what a customer tells you to do, and not necessarily what you want to do, but what your boss (and the contract) says is the next project. ;)
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Right, exactly. Errata doesn't make money and until people actually stop buying books because of the poor editing/proofreading and lack of errata, Catalyst won't care.
Edit: to be clear, I mean "the people who make the business decisions at Catalyst" not "every single individual who works for Catalyst."
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I think it's also a case of the translators catching alot of tiny mistakes as they are translating from English to whatever other language. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a clause built in that they are allowed to 'tweak' things for the sake of translation, and use that to fix some of the strangeness they find along the way...
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Then they should translate it back to English and fix stuff that direction, too...
Like, we could have a "English > German > English Runner's Blackbook" or whatever. ;D
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Part of it is that translation isn't an exact process - German might not permit for the same ambiguities that have caused issues (IE, German might have different ambiguities.).
Karma: In development of any sort, someone has to be responsible for being able to say whether or not the resources, time included, are available to do any given thing. If that person decides that there isn't enough time, or that there are better uses for that time, "make time" isn't a viable response. It's the same way you get games shipping with known bugs, actually.
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In my current campaign the team's Sammie is a female Ork and member of the Cascade-Ork tribe. Her cyberware includes boosted muscles for extreme strength, and her weapon of choice... a custom bow. She tends to kill instantly with a single shot.
However, I also like to reward players for creativity. One of my other player's character is a SURGE who looks like Applejack from MLP: FIM and acts like Kaylee from Firefly. She's the team's rigger, and she has built a few things specifically for her friend Rosa. One: a drone that builds any kind of arrow she has the schematic for (so Rosa can get arrows without having to check for availability. Full price for each arrow, of course. She still has to pay for the materials). So Rosa's custom quiver not only includes the standard broadheads, but also stick-n-shock arrows (for when she needs to keep the target alive) and grenade arrows (Same stats as an HE grenade, but archery ranges).
I did have a player in a previous game whose character was a mage with a bow and custom spells. She had a very low rate of fire (Even with her Increase Reflexes spell), but it still worked pretty well. One initiative pass spent casting a spell to enchant the arrow. One initiative pass to fire the enchanted arrow. Cue the AOE stun effect, at low drain cost when compared to a stunball. Really, a bow is a method for propelling a stick-like object a considerable distance, silently and without relying on chemical propellants. There's all kinds of ways to be creative with that.
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I did have a player in a previous game whose character was a mage with a bow and custom spells. She had a very low rate of fire (Even with her Increase Reflexes spell), but it still worked pretty well. One initiative pass spent casting a spell to enchant the arrow. One initiative pass to fire the enchanted arrow. Cue the AOE stun effect, at low drain cost when compared to a stunball. Really, a bow is a method for propelling a stick-like object a considerable distance, silently and without relying on chemical propellants. There's all kinds of ways to be creative with that.
Wow, really bending the rules there aren't ya :p
Missile weapons can't be 'enchanted'
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Dynamite Arrows from a 2069 Dodge Charger? ;D
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Dynamite Arrows from a 2069 Dodge Charger? ;D
Hey! They where just some good ol' boys! They never did no harm!
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I did have a player in a previous game whose character was a mage with a bow and custom spells. She had a very low rate of fire (Even with her Increase Reflexes spell), but it still worked pretty well. One initiative pass spent casting a spell to enchant the arrow. One initiative pass to fire the enchanted arrow. Cue the AOE stun effect, at low drain cost when compared to a stunball. Really, a bow is a method for propelling a stick-like object a considerable distance, silently and without relying on chemical propellants. There's all kinds of ways to be creative with that.
Wow, really bending the rules there aren't ya :p
Missile weapons can't be 'enchanted'
It wasn't enchanting a bullet, it was temporarily augmenting an arrow to "detonate" the spell when it hit the target. Since the setup required her to spend BP on Magic, Agility, Spellcasting, AND Archery, I figured it was allowable. It's not like the player who wanted to have special rules governing the spirits her mage summoned that applied just to her. THAT time I ruled, "your spirits can look like whatever you want... but they follow the same rules as every other spirit in 4th edition."
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...and even in those limits you are still free to flavour the Powers the way you want them. I wont mind doing such thing? Apparently, there are such things comming in 5ed, so no harm done...also IMO Anchoring + building arrow as an Anchoring focus would solve this even within rules of 4th ed...
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I did have a player in a previous game whose character was a mage with a bow and custom spells. She had a very low rate of fire (Even with her Increase Reflexes spell), but it still worked pretty well. One initiative pass spent casting a spell to enchant the arrow. One initiative pass to fire the enchanted arrow. Cue the AOE stun effect, at low drain cost when compared to a stunball. Really, a bow is a method for propelling a stick-like object a considerable distance, silently and without relying on chemical propellants. There's all kinds of ways to be creative with that.
Wow, really bending the rules there aren't ya :p
Missile weapons can't be 'enchanted'
It wasn't enchanting a bullet, it was temporarily augmenting an arrow to "detonate" the spell when it hit the target. Since the setup required her to spend BP on Magic, Agility, Spellcasting, AND Archery, I figured it was allowable. It's not like the player who wanted to have special rules governing the spirits her mage summoned that applied just to her. THAT time I ruled, "your spirits can look like whatever you want... but they follow the same rules as every other spirit in 4th edition."
Hey, it's your game! If you want to allow it, that's cool. Just note that's it's really no different then enchanting bullets :p (replace archery with long arms, and you got the same investment of skills, but now with a sniper rifle!)
Just pointing out that under 4e rules, this wasn't possible as a foci became inactive once it left the aura of the Mage.
As Sichr points out, there MAY be something similar coming down the pipes of 5e too....
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well in fact Anchoring focus can leave the presence of the magician...
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My personal angle on the spellcasting archer (partially inspired by that fantastic cover art a few editions ago) was that it was that particular mage's fetish items and/or Centering techniques. She could shoot her bow for a mundane combat twang-twang effect, or she could "shoot" a spell using the bow as a fetish item and Archery as a Centering skill, to help handle the drain (by relying heavily on the items for the spellcasting).
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I wonder why I haven't heard that before - I've even heard of games and a folklore (i think from south Asia) about a hunter who carried no quiver and fired arrows made of his pure will. This is along the same lines.
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well in fact Anchoring focus can leave the presence of the magician...
yep, you're right, they can leave the aura of the mage....
however, it's still an expensive trick to pull off! The mage has to be initiated, has to have the anchoring metamagic technique, then has to resist drain for the spell TWICE, THEN has to expend Karma for each spell they anchor equal to the force of the spell!!!
Not something I would do that often on my mage, especially considering how valuable Karma is to mages.....
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+the price of the foci. So, such arrow really can be usefull. I just didn`t find out what for :)