[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

...
6e will.
...

Actually, it won't.  It's not that the difference between binging some documentary trideos and earning a PhD is gone, it's just that the difference is now moot. Differentiating how MUCH knowledge you have on a topic literally doesn't matter in the mechanic of how knowledge skills work in 6e. All that matters is do you know something relevant to what's going on in the shadowrun.  Someone who only watched documentaries just might have watched the perfect episode and does know it.  And the Professor who teaches the subject to doctorate students might have never bothered going into those particular weeds and might not know it.

...
Or, put another way, players really, really, really, want PC physics to match the rest of the game world physics.

When they don't, dissonense occurs.

Well, I don't know what to tell you because Shadowrun's always had rules that only apply to PCs or only to NPCs.  Even in 5e, Spiders could do illegal matrix actions and not generate OS score.  Doc Wagon surgeons can perform feats of healing PCs can't.  Lone Star cops don't have to use the acquiring equipment rules to kit themselves out. Etc. Etc. Etc.  And it's all the same reason: because they're NPCs and the PCs can't do the same things because they're not NPCs.

[Moonshine Fox]

I'll admit, some of the problem is that knowledge skills were always a lot more subjective then active skills, since you could litterally just make up ones of your own on the spot. Even with the same level of overall knowledge people will know things differently.

Take three chummers who got a degree in English from Ares University. All have the mechanical level of 6 in the skill, with LOG of 5 and INT of 4 for arguments sake. All three could still play this up as being different from each other via roleplaying, with one focusing on things like sentence strucher and the nuts-an-bolts of who language works, while another focused his studies on story composition and writing. Both with the same dice pool but they know things about English differently from each other.

While it may be a problem when someone wants to recall facts about their knowledge with a skill roll, it also lends itself to players being creative with their knowledge skills once more, rather then focusing their few points into only "street useful" skills and ignoring any sort of character building interest things. Having a character with a knowledge of bonzi tree shaping is a fun and could be rewarded in game somehow without needed to roll separately for, or a character doesn't feel bad 'wasting' knowledge skills taking 20th century TTRPGs for his mage named Hoyle (actual reference, cause I'm a nerd).

Language skills though I'd probably still want to see a skill level on as I feel that's more mechanically important, but then again I can't think of more then one hand worth of examples of when that skill level distinction actually mattered in all my years of Shadowrun.

[FastJack]

Topics split and merged.

[Banshee]

ok, time for a brief tutorial I guess

Language skills - still have differentiating levels that represent how fluent you are. not as detailed as active skills but more so than knowledge skills. [Basic, Specialist, Expert, Native]

Knowledge skills don't need ranks to determine how much you know, as SSDR has said many times in this thread it is all about how you apply that knowledge to the situation. for example someone with a PhD in Neuroscience has the Neuroscience as a Knowledge skill but also has 7 or 8 ranks in the Biotech skill with probably an Expertise in Surgery ... then if the knowledge skill is applicable that means they could be rolling 13(8+3+2)+Logic in dice for whatever they are doing. And that is how you differentiate how "knowledgeable" someone is.

EDIT: just for some insight in our rationalization behind this change. We found that the vast majority of players either didn't invest much time or effort into it or didn't use them in actual game play. So know you just have 'areas of knowledge" that can effect what you do in game play without tracking another detailed skill list. The basis of these knowledge's are meant to be journeymen level (in other words you have solid applicable knowledge but not a dedicated extensive repository), CRB does not go into detail about that but it may be covered more in future books. In the meantime if you want or need to have more than that in a PC or NPC either one ... it is just a matter of roleplaying it.

[Ghost Rigger]

Actually, it won't.  It's not that the difference between binging some documentary trideos and earning a PhD is gone, it's just that the difference is now moot.

Now you're just being intellectually dishonest.

Well, I don't know what to tell you because Shadowrun's always had rules that only apply to PCs or only to NPCs.

And then you cite two examples that are clearly someone getting special privileges (privilege and inequality are an intrinsic part of Shadowrun) and a third that is just malarkey (PCs can heal just as well as any Doc Wagon surgeon, they just usually lack the skills and equipment to do so).

[Iron Serpent Prince]

ok, time for a brief tutorial I guess

Language skills - still have differentiating levels that represent how fluent you are. not as detailed as active skills but more so than knowledge skills. [Basic, Specialist, Expert, Native]

Knowledge skills don't need ranks to determine how much you know, as SSDR has said many times in this thread it is all about how you apply that knowledge to the situation. for example someone with a PhD in Neuroscience has the Neuroscience as a Knowledge skill but also has 7 or 8 ranks in the Biotech skill with probably an Expertise in Surgery ... then if the knowledge skill is applicable that means they could be rolling 13(8+3+2)+Logic in dice for whatever they are doing. And that is how you differentiate how "knowledgeable" someone is.

So, Knowledge Skills in 6e don't really do anything themselves - and they have to piggyback on Active Skills?

That reads as if the Knowledge Skill doesn't have an Active Skill to piggyback on, (Such as nearly all Interest Knowledge Skills), there is no effect?  Examples:  Mathmatics (to bet more out of Math SPUs), Alcohol, [Music Genre], Trideo Shows, etc.

That seems unnecessarily complex compared to just pairing the Active Skill with Logic and calling it a day.

[Banshee]

ok, time for a brief tutorial I guess

Language skills - still have differentiating levels that represent how fluent you are. not as detailed as active skills but more so than knowledge skills. [Basic, Specialist, Expert, Native]

Knowledge skills don't need ranks to determine how much you know, as SSDR has said many times in this thread it is all about how you apply that knowledge to the situation. for example someone with a PhD in Neuroscience has the Neuroscience as a Knowledge skill but also has 7 or 8 ranks in the Biotech skill with probably an Expertise in Surgery ... then if the knowledge skill is applicable that means they could be rolling 13(8+3+2)+Logic in dice for whatever they are doing. And that is how you differentiate how "knowledgeable" someone is.

So, Knowledge Skills in 6e don't really do anything themselves - and they have to piggyback on Active Skills?

That reads as if the Knowledge Skill doesn't have an Active Skill to piggyback on, (Such as nearly all Interest Knowledge Skills), there is no effect?  Examples:  Mathmatics (to bet more out of Math SPUs), Alcohol, [Music Genre], Trideo Shows, etc.

That seems unnecessarily complex compared to just pairing the Active Skill with Logic and calling it a day.

It's a bit more than that ... they do stuff like allow you to make a perception check to notice something just because of your knowledge skill or make a memory test to remember some little detail. It actually allows for far more diversity and actual in game use then just making a knowledge skill check to see what you know when used correctly. Overall it should be more about the synergy between what you know and what you do ... not just what you know.

[FastJack]

So for Knowledge - Sprawl Gangs, you're Perception would get a +2 to spot the gangers in the firefight.

[Banshee]

So for Knowledge - Sprawl Gangs, you're Perception would get a +2 to spot the gangers in the firefight.

not just spot them ... that would be a standard perception check but if you would be able to identify the gang members with that same check rather than using the 5E method of having to make a separate gang knowledge roll to see if you could after you spotted them

to flesh out that example ... without the knowledge skill runner A makes the check and sees the big showdown between a bunch of street punks, but runner B who has the sprawl gang knowledge skill makes the same check but know that is actually a 3way firefight between the Ancients, Halloweeners, and the Rusty Stilletos

[Moonshine Fox]

ok, time for a brief tutorial I guess

Language skills - still have differentiating levels that represent how fluent you are. not as detailed as active skills but more so than knowledge skills. [Basic, Specialist, Expert, Native]

Knowledge skills don't need ranks to determine how much you know, as SSDR has said many times in this thread it is all about how you apply that knowledge to the situation. for example someone with a PhD in Neuroscience has the Neuroscience as a Knowledge skill but also has 7 or 8 ranks in the Biotech skill with probably an Expertise in Surgery ... then if the knowledge skill is applicable that means they could be rolling 13(8+3+2)+Logic in dice for whatever they are doing. And that is how you differentiate how "knowledgeable" someone is.

So, Knowledge Skills in 6e don't really do anything themselves - and they have to piggyback on Active Skills?

That reads as if the Knowledge Skill doesn't have an Active Skill to piggyback on, (Such as nearly all Interest Knowledge Skills), there is no effect?  Examples:  Mathmatics (to bet more out of Math SPUs), Alcohol, [Music Genre], Trideo Shows, etc.

That seems unnecessarily complex compared to just pairing the Active Skill with Logic and calling it a day.

I mean, how much does one roll Separately for interest skills nowadays? You could use those to give out bonuses or penalties to characters depending on circumstances. Trying to infiltrate a high society event? The knowledge of alcohols or fine wines could give you a bonus. Fast talking a guard to avoid suspicion? Maybe he’s got the latest Bring Your Slaughter to Work single paused and you can totally geek out with him about thrash bands and keep him at ease!

[Shinobi Killfist]

Do not like. I have built and many of my players have built characters who are experts on subjects but didn’t want to work under the confines of a Corp. and used running as a way to fund their research.

I don’t like the reasoning I’m Seeing either. The only thing that matters is how it effects the game?  Nope, I’m roleplaying a character who may have attributes and skills of no relevance to the game. It’s about having the ability to make a complete character not a complete game device. It’s a rpg not a board game.

[Moonshine Fox]

Do not like. I have built and many of my players have built characters who are experts on subjects but didn’t want to work under the confines of a Corp. and used running as a way to fund their research.

I don’t like the reasoning I’m Seeing either. The only thing that matters is how it effects the game?  Nope, I’m roleplaying a character who may have attributes and skills of no relevance to the game. It’s about having the ability to make a complete character not a complete game device. It’s a rpg not a board game.

 And now you can focus more on those without having to worry about number crunch. This gives a lot more incentive for people to “waste“ knowledge skills on interest or background information. The rating not being mechanical allows you to role-play more specifics regarding the types of things you do and don’t know inside each knowledge skill.

 Let’s face it, how many character builds on the forum had purely interest skills on them?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Do not like. I have built and many of my players have built characters who are experts on subjects but didn’t want to work under the confines of a Corp. and used running as a way to fund their research.

I don’t like the reasoning I’m Seeing either. The only thing that matters is how it effects the game?  Nope, I’m roleplaying a character who may have attributes and skills of no relevance to the game. It’s about having the ability to make a complete character not a complete game device. It’s a rpg not a board game.

 And now you can focus more on those without having to worry about number crunch. This gives a lot more incentive for people to “waste“ knowledge skills on interest or background information. The rating not being mechanical allows you to role-play more specifics regarding the types of things you do and don’t know inside each knowledge skill.

 Let’s face it, how many character builds on the forum had purely interest skills on them?

Forum builds imo are usually focussed on min maxing and not on building a character. Ranked knowledge skills allowed both style of characters and players to thrive. I Do not think this works as well for all styles of play.

I don’t think it needed to be super detailed maybe something like language skills as described. Familiarity, trained, expert, master. 4 ranks of it comes up in game a notation this needs a expert level of knowledge or whatever.

But on off with on being a journeyman level isn’t what I want.

On a note with language. I’d of gone basic, specialist, native, expert.

Plenty of native speakers are just okay at language. You have to train to become a expert. Maybe even but native in the 2nd spot.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Do not like. I have built and many of my players have built characters who are experts on subjects but didn’t want to work under the confines of a Corp. and used running as a way to fund their research.

I don't get how the two sentences are supposed to be related to each other. There's nothing stopping you from having a character who's a former (or ongoing, I suppose, if your GM is willing to go along) corp scientist.

Really, what's the problem in the guy playing Skin Rash the CyberHobo gets the same bonus to a knowledge skill check as you if he bothers to invest in the same knowledge skill as you?  I mean, A) it's probably never going to happen anyway, people who play characters like Skin Rash the CyberHobo aren't likely to bother spending karma on Microbiology and B) even if he DOES, just because you're a world leader in microbiology and Skin Rash the CyberHobo mainly knows how to tell if the sour milk is still safe to drink, who cares WHO comes up with the clue based on microbial knowledge happens to positively affect the game? You're ostensibly both on the same team.  If you can't get over Skin Rash the CyberHobo beating you on a knowledge-skill enhanced check (probably due to fluke luck, as Skin Rash doesn't sound like has has awesome mental stats and presumably you do) it speaks more to your ability to roleplay than there being a deficiency in the rules assumption.  In my opinion.  Why not roll with it and make it a point of roleplay.  Get indignant in character.  Or offer Skin Rash the opportunity to join you in the sterile lab for some research... who knows what's breeding in his festering sores afterall?

I don’t like the reasoning I’m Seeing either. The only thing that matters is how it effects the game?  Nope, I’m roleplaying a character who may have attributes and skills of no relevance to the game. It’s about having the ability to make a complete character not a complete game device. It’s a rpg not a board game.

I'm not trying to twist your words... but honestly who cares about how knowledge skills affect things outside the game?  That literally doesn't matter to the game.

[Ghost Rigger]

B) even if he DOES, just because you're a world leader in microbiology and Skin Rash the CyberHobo mainly knows how to tell if the sour milk is still safe to drink, who cares WHO comes up with the clue based on microbial knowledge happens to positively affect the game? You're ostensibly both on the same team.  If you can't get over Skin Rash the CyberHobo beating you on a knowledge-skill enhanced check (probably due to fluke luck, as Skin Rash doesn't sound like has has awesome mental stats and presumably you do) it speaks more to your ability to roleplay than there being a deficiency in the rules assumption.  In my opinion.  Why not roll with it and make it a point of roleplay.  Get indignant in character.  Or offer Skin Rash the opportunity to join you in the sterile lab for some research... who knows what's breeding in his festering sores afterall?

"If you have a problem with this, then you're a jerk who can't roleplay!" Do you really think people can't see what you're trying to do here?