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Jammers and GOD

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Xenon

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« Reply #45 on: <08-21-18/1619:53> »
I guess we'll know if that's the case when this explodes into 15 pages of nerdbickering.

The Missions FAQ committee met last night to discuss Kill Code...
And after only 3 pages of nerdbrickering! :-)

Feels a bit like we are back to the mesh-network-idea that played a big role before Matrix 2.0 where wireless devices will automatically create a matrix of their own (was that the system we had back in SR4? - can't remember...).

I sense that this ruling is likely to cause some issues.

For starters I'd imagine that Grids now [finally] played out most of their role (which might actually be a good thing, I never really liked Grids and Grid hopping anyway to be honest). We will probably get whole privately owned illegal wireless matrix networks complete with Hosts etc. inside Faraday cages big as buildings.... as well as cut off secret wireless matrix networks in remote locations where only satellite link to the world wife matrix used to be possible -- well out of reach from the regular Grids and their demiGODs.

Do we even make a distinction between a "new" smaller matrix and the "old" larger world wife matrix at all (besides lack of convergence I mean)??

Without even more ruling it seem as if it is now also possible to loot stuff and actually hack the ownership without risk. You just need to make sure that both the device and the hacker are connected to a smaller part of the matrix where the legit owner and the Eye of the Grid Overwatch Division and with it the Big Ten in the form of the Corporate Court don't have access.




Seems a lot more reasonable than assuming that any two pieces of electronic need to be connected to the whole internet as well to communicate.
To be fair, two devices could already communicate via wire (see wired security SR5 p. 360). You could also connect two datajacks with a wire (see datajack SR5 p. 452 ) or two TMs with skin link touching each other (see skinlink DT p. 59) and have a secure and private way of communication that way.

(But I understand what you mean)

Jayde Moon

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« Reply #46 on: <08-21-18/1738:38> »
The sky is not falling, Chicken Little.  The implications are not so far reaching.
That's just like... your opinion, man.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #47 on: <08-21-18/1751:02> »
If you're not the owner, you can't just change it to connect to a non-GOD part. I know I wouldn't allow that anyway. The risk of being tracked is a good idea.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #48 on: <08-21-18/1757:08> »
The sky is not falling, Chicken Little.  The implications are not so far reaching.

The sky may not be falling.

This ruling does make me wonder if OS has just been made obsolete / completely avoidable.

Putting the OS entirely in the hands of the Decker (on their device) seems like a big mistake - assuming the idea of keeping OS in the game is the plan / idea.
« Last Edit: <08-21-18/1802:13> by Iron Serpent Prince »

Xenon

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« Reply #49 on: <08-21-18/1818:13> »
If you're not the owner, you can't just change it to connect to a non-GOD part. I know I wouldn't allow that anyway. The risk of being tracked is a good idea.
Oh, I 100% agree.

But now we are talking about house-ruling things on the fly (because RAW you only need to be on the matrix and by SRM ruling you are even considered to be on the matrix even if you are directly connected while wireless disabled or even if you are alone with the device inside a Faraday cage).

I am sure this is not rules as they are strictly written and I honestly don't think this is rules as originally intended by the author either (and with all the fluff they added in data trails about the Big Ten taking full control over matrix 2.0). Changing it might cause unforeseen ripple effects.

This is actually quite similar to how Aaron's call on wireless bonuses a few years ago suddenly made jammers useless ;-)

Then again. This ruling might be easier to grasp. And I agree, the implications are not so far reaching. I have been waiting for a clear answer for years. I welcome this.
« Last Edit: <08-21-18/1820:30> by Xenon »

Finstersang

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« Reply #50 on: <08-21-18/1819:48> »
Iīm all in for "Local matrixes* are possible, but the Big Matrix will swallow them at any opputurnity"  ;D.

Makes a lot of sense, fluff-wise: If resonant code is embedded into the matrix protocols, every device programmed built to follow them will have some resonant (in other words: paranormal and semi-sentient) properties as well. This will most likely even spread to older devices, which are infected and "force-updated" at the first contact with the new Matrix. These devices will automaticaly try to integrate into the big virtual dreamworld or, if shut off from the Matrix as a whole, try to establish their own little version of it.

That would also explain why there is a mandatory VR interface/icon for everything (I mean, why not just ditch it? Itīs not like you need a fancy 3D model for a file to work?) and how the iconography rules are enforced on them: The resonant code inside your Gun just doesnīt want it to look like something harmless, the resonant code of your Avatar doesnīt want it to look like something liveless and the resonant code of your Marks doesnīt want them to look like something that has no semantic connection to your avatar - as usefull that would be for a hacker  ;)

*Yeah yeah, the correct plural would be matrices  ::)
« Last Edit: <08-21-18/1836:13> by Finstersang »

Jayde Moon

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« Reply #51 on: <08-21-18/1853:15> »
Xenon, you are really taking this ball and running with it, I'm just confused about where you're going and why you're choosing to go that way.  When I have a moment, I'll relook exactly what I wrote and try to deduce how you are coming to your conclusions...
That's just like... your opinion, man.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #52 on: <08-21-18/1945:22> »
RE: Any two devices linked by a data cable = "a" matrix as opposed to matrix actions requiring "the" matrix:

I don't like the ruling, but I don't have to.  I also don't like that mundanes can't perceive powerful magic, or that Astral Combat can't destroy a sustained spell, either, so I'm used to disappointment :D

I can't say I'm surprised about this particular clarification... this is afterall essentially what the errata lead's position was in the thread about EM-shielding a vehicle (i.e. turning the vehicle into a farraday cage) and then still being able to be in VR to jack in and rig it while sitting inside that vehicle.  I don't like "mini-matrixes" for a couple reasons that are all variations on the same big reason: it's got potential implications for game balance that I don't like.  Riggers shouldn't be Decker-proof, and Deckers shouldn't be GOD-proof.

But, still.  So long as we're talking semantics and the practical/in-game applications of this clarification are few and far between (e.g. only what the GM allows, rather than what the Players impose upon the GM) it's a fair price to pay for being allowed to use Matrix actions while connected to "a" Matrix but not "the" Matrix.

Again: thanks Jayde for the info and sharing it with the Peanut Gallery :)
« Last Edit: <08-21-18/1947:23> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Finstersang

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« Reply #53 on: <08-22-18/0519:53> »
Riggers shouldn't be Decker-proof, and Deckers shouldn't be GOD-proof.

Thatīs what I find so appealing about the "grabby matrix"-principle: One little leak, and the whole assembly is back online and prone to hacking and/or GOD. Deckers and Riggers would only be safe in totally isolated system, which are not easy to establish and have other drawbacks. Riggers would need a direct connection, so itīs mostly for vehicle riggers who would then have to sit inside of the vehicle and potentially crash and burn with it. You can theoretically use this for a Multi-Drone Rigger, but youīd have to kite your drone swarms along with fiberoptic cables like some kind of Cyberpunk Jellyfish, which obviously has other drawbacks. Would look cool, though  8)

Hackers would only be safe from GOD if both their Persona and the target device/network are isolated from the Matrix. From a security viewpoint, this also means that isolated system have a tradeoff for being secured against wireless hacking - GOD canīt help you against intruders. That might be enough rationale for the spider to not rig the whole building with fiberoptics and stay wireless. Which means more fun for the hacker ;D

And after all: One well-placed Data Tap (and I heard there are some new ways to apply them in Kill Code) and the whole thing is wireless again. And even the cabled vehicle rigger canīt protect himself from the hacker hiding in the back seat :P
« Last Edit: <08-22-18/0521:35> by Finstersang »

Jayde Moon

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« Reply #54 on: <08-23-18/1757:41> »
Alright, so I'll try to unpack this.

I concede that by the strictest interpretation of RAW, not allowing for any contextual information, reference to how operating systems and networks actually function, previous editions, or intent of the developers...

  • You CAN NOT hack a device in a closed system and
  • that access to the Matrix, whether from the user's device, the target device, or some point in-between, is required.

Normally, I wouldn't reach back on something like this... but if that is how the mechanic is actually meant to work, then I had a terminally deficient understanding of a core thematic element of Shadowrun 5th Edition.  So I did.  Suffice to say, that the INTENT is not that you cannot operate virtually in a closed system.

The Matrix is the proper name for the largest telecommunications network, shared by the world, with multiple grids, and overseen by GOD.  It is THE Matrix.  Capital M.  At the end of the day, however, the Matrix is a network.  Any computer network, especially that can be experienced virtually when accessed via DNI, is also a matrix (a lowercase 'M' matrix, if you will).  If you can plug your brain into it and experience the code via your five senses, then you are in a matrix.

RAW allows for 'throwback' items.  Any item can be made into a throwback item (Core 421).  Your gun.  Your datajack.  Your commlink.  Your deck.  We can debate the wisdom of altering your deck into a throwback item, but we cannot argue that you can't do it.  In case anyone assumed that making a device into a throwback made it absolutely useless because you have to be connected to the Matrix, the third paragraph in that section discusses how it's immune to being hacked via the wireless Matrix and that you can direct connect, indicating that the device retains functionality.

Common sense tells us that the device can do everything it did before, but without access to the Matrix (functions that would require Matrix access aren't going to work as well, obviously).

Stringing several of these throwbacks together creates a network that is not on the Matrix.  You can then connect with a throwback datajack and access this network without also being plugged into the Matrix.

If you follow the strictest interpretation of RAW, then your case is that I cannot, while directly hooked into a network of devices, edit oe encrypt any of the files(Edit File Matrix Action), use any of the functions of any connected devices (Control Device Matrix Action), or turn one of the devices off and then back on (Reboot Device Matrix Action).

So, one of two things is true here:

The rules were written specifically so that you cannot do what I just mentioned above.

OR

The rules were worded in a way to differentiate virtual/computer actions from physical actions with a word that would easily get that point across, but did not take into account the potential for confusion when dealing with closed networks (and ultra-literal gamer geeks).

Since we now know the intent is not the former, the latter must be true.  'Matrix Action' thematically fits and gets the point across, but in practice it's really 'Computer Action'.  It's not as sexy to say and most computers default to being on the Matrix anyway, so let's score the style points.

You do NOT need to be on the Matrix to edit files, control devices, or even hack on the fly.  You do need to be on a matrix, or computer network.  You have to be on a computer to do computer actions.

----------------------------

Given all of that, GOD cannot see you because you are literally not on their network.  GOD cannot converge on you.

The question, though, do you develop an OS?  There is precedence for building an OS but not being converged on when it hits 40:  When you are in a Host.

If it were up to me, you would not develop an OS.  To me, OS represented GOD detecting the tiniest abnormalities and corruptions in code across the Matrix and then honing in on the source as more and more tiny bits were emitted from the same source.  A shark following the trail of blood.

Conceding that OS is supposed to be a factor in illegal matrix actions, I'm ok with saying you develop one but you cannot be converged on, unless you somehow connect to the Matrix while your OS is at or above the threshold (much like when you leave a Host with 40+ OS).  I understand, Finsterstang, that my explanation is an improbably unwise implementation of software development... but I can't think of another way to represent that mechanic in terms of what is going on in the gameworld (if you can think of one, I'd be happy to hear it).

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So does this break the game?  Does it suddenly make everything excessively vulnerable or easier to hack than before?  Not at all.

Grids are not obsolete.  I fail to understand why the existance of LANs eliminates the concept of Grids anymore than LANs and intranets eliminate separate service providers in today's internet.

The idea of folks building faraday cages INTO their buildings so that they can host internal WIRELESS networks is, in my mind, highly improbable.  The expense of making your building a faraday cage coupled with the ability to defeat that security easily, with a myriad of options, would likely force corporations to simply create a WIRED network.

Secret Wireless Networks in various locations not being detectable by GOD is similarly unfeasible.  I require a satellite link to connect to wireless with my device because it's small and only pushes so much signal.  A network of any significance will be pushing a signal that would likely connect to the greater wireless network.  Even if not, just because you can't reach GOD doesn't mean GOD can't reach you (a satellite uplink eliminates noise created by DISTANCE, which none of this is actually about).

Hacking Ownership requires access to the Matrix, not just a matrix.  Nothing presented here changes that.  We've already discussed, conceptually, the difference between hacking a device you're holding in your hand vs needing to access the servers where the information you registered ownership of that device is stored.  Ownership is not simply stored on the device.

We're not talking about 'smaller parts of the matrix' vs larger parts.  We're saying that you can create a network that is not connected to the Matrix.

This creates additional difficulty for Deckers who need to access closed networks, because now they have to be physically with the system or find some way to establish a direct connection.

It doesn't change much with devices in your possession.  You had to get the item in the first place and once you have it, hacking it wirelessly is not going to present much difficulty for a decker, OS or not.

You could create your own wired network to keep folks out of it, rendering you immune to hacking, but that's already covered by RAW in throwbacks.

You cannot access things that are on the Matrix if you are not on the Matrix.  So you can't plug into your closed network and do a Matrix Search.  Well... you can, it's just got a threshold of infinity for anything not stored on your network and 1 for anything that is.  You obviously wouldn't be able to trace an icon that isn't on your network or edit files that aren't on your network, etc.  You want to do that, you need to get on the wireless Matrix.

----------------------------

Is this a rule that even needs to be clarified?

Nah.  Honestly, this is something a GM should make a ruling for at their table.  We are putting it into the Missions FAQ, because Missions is pretty much a big table and players expect consistency in how it's run.
That's just like... your opinion, man.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #55 on: <08-23-18/1805:45> »
Thanks again Jayde Moon for bending over backwards to accommodate us.

If you're game, I would like to hear your take on something besides what's possible on The Matrix vs a matrix:

...
So, the first thing is that cloud storage is the DEFAULT mode, but of course devices and hosts have their own storage.
...

So if you turn your commlink to wireless-off, CAN you by default edit files "in storage" on your commlink since there's the probability/possibility that the given file you want to edit might be stored out on the Matrix Cloud somewhere?

Should a rule of thumb be that any file/program that was actively in use at the time of going wireless-off is available, and chance/gm whim dictates whether anything else is locally available without a wireless connection to The Matrix?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Jayde Moon

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« Reply #56 on: <08-23-18/2010:30> »
So, grenades come in 3 flavors of detonation:  timer, motion sensor, and wireless.

The first time a runner pulls out a grenade at my table, I ask what kind it is.  They usually look at me blankly, so I explain.  Then, it being their first time, I let them decide on the spot.

But then I also ask them what the default is. This means that if they don't take pains to inform me that it detonates in some other way, I will treat it like their default and they just have to accept that.

I would treat this much the same.  The first time it mattered, I'd ask them what it was in the moment and what their default was.

That's just me.  Every GM has a different way they deal with stuff like this.  Th hat would be their prerogative.

In the end, it doesn't really matter...

Default, though, would be cloud.  Kind of like how each device comes with a default persona avatar.

But I'd also allow 'both', like how dropbox and google drive work today.
That's just like... your opinion, man.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #57 on: <08-24-18/0205:57> »
And of course if you pull a data-steal but your commlink then is blown up while you kept its data offline...
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Finstersang

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« Reply #58 on: <08-24-18/0825:40> »
If it were up to me, you would not develop an OS.  To me, OS represented GOD detecting the tiniest abnormalities and corruptions in code across the Matrix and then honing in on the source as more and more tiny bits were emitted from the same source.  A shark following the trail of blood.

Conceding that OS is supposed to be a factor in illegal matrix actions, I'm ok with saying you develop one but you cannot be converged on, unless you somehow connect to the Matrix while your OS is at or above the threshold (much like when you leave a Host with 40+ OS).  I understand, Finsterstang, that my explanation is an improbably unwise implementation of software development... but I can't think of another way to represent that mechanic in terms of what is going on in the gameworld (if you can think of one, I'd be happy to hear it).

Thatīs actually the way I would put it as well. The only question is if OS is something that is generated by GOD or by the Fabric of the Matrix itself AND, assuming the latter, who is responsible for the act of Convergence. The fact that Hosts deal differently with an OS of 40 and the wording in the rules indicate that Convergence isnīt something that just happens because the Matrix got angry at you (which would fit the fluff just as well), but that some GOD or DemiGOD out there recognized a critical level of illegal stuff and pushed some kind of Matrix Nuke button on you.

My best shot for OS in closed systems would be something like this (mostly the same as your interpretation):
  • Yes, you do develop OS in a closed system or "Mini-Matrix". It may be isolated, but the system is still infused with the watching spirits of dead Technomancers the new Matrix protocolls.
  • When the closed System reconnects to a Grid, the OS is automatically taken over and tracked by GOD. To use the "Blood in the Water" analogy: Blood in a Bathtub becomes Blood in the Ocean if the Bathtub gets submerged in it  ;) 
  • Same principle for two closed systems joining or when getting isolated from the Big M again. In other words: The OS stays with you until you relogg. Itīs you who is doing the bleeding.
  • Convergence is done by GOD, so it only happens when on a Grid. No room for Sharks in the Bathtub.
  • Hitting 40 OS in a closed system has some effects, though. You donīt suffer convergence, but the members of the system will be alerted, get your physical location (mostly approximated by the devices you are connected to) and will act accordingly. Further punishment is at the whims of the security spider or the device owners (So, GM territory). As a default, the devices will likely blare out an alarm to attract physical security, but they also might trigger traps, shut off or self destruct. Hell, they might even reconnect to the Grid and have GOD converge on you. Blood in the Bathtub...
  • In very small closed Systems (2-3 devices), one might consider to lower the threshold for Convergence - Itīs easier to make waves in a Bathtub than in the Ocean*. With the threshold of 40, OS would be neglectable in many closed system hacks, since you hardly do more than a handfull of actions when directly hacking a singular device. But thatīs just my personal take.

*OK, itīs waves now, not blood. But you get the idea  ;D
« Last Edit: <08-24-18/0847:22> by Finstersang »