Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: Bradd on <11-03-10/1742:19>
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SR4A, p. 68 states that a "specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies." SR4A, p. 121 states that they "add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable." Those definitions have different implications for splitting dice pools. Dice pool modifiers apply after the split, but dice added to tests apply before (according to the FAQ).
Related to this, the FAQ says that foci add dice to tests and therefore apply before splitting a dice pool. While that's true for most foci, weapon foci "grant the character a dice pool modifier to melee attacks" (SR4A, p. 199).
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Very nice observation, I've wondered this for some time myself since there is a very real distinction between adding to a skill and modifying a dice pool - especially when splitting pools. I would love to see a ruling on this.
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A little further down the FAQ:
How do you split a dice pool, such as using multiple weapons or casting multiple spells?
A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.). When splitting the pool the player divides these dice however they want, keeping at least one die for each test. Dice pool modifiers (from certain augmentations, darkness, smoke, etc.) are then applied to each test separately.
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I'm trying to remember what the RAW says about doing two dissimilar actions.. i.e. shoot and spellcast in the same action, but I think I need a reminder. Splitting dicepools is easy for casting two spells at once. It's when we're talking about two different dice pools.
Edit: Example, casting a combat and an illusion spell. Trickster mentor gives +2 to illusions, not to combat. Different base pool sizes. (like 12 for combat and 14 for illusion)
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When dealing with 2 different dice pools, you count the smaller of the 2 dice pools and split it and go from there iirc.
As far as the FAQ ruling on specializations, that's what I've been going with, but since some people argue that the FAQ is worthless, it would be nice to see some errata on the subject since the RAW does technically contradict itself...
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If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool.
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@FastJack: The trouble with that FAQ is that specializations and weapon foci are listed as dice pool modifiers. It's at least half wrong in each case.
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A little further down the FAQ:
How do you split a dice pool, such as using multiple weapons or casting multiple spells?
A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.). .....
Which Means that the FAQ is simply Wrong!
Isn't the first Time,Is it ?
Hough!
Medicineman
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Okay, the OP is asking about clarification on whether Specialization is added before or after the dice pool splits. The FAQ demonstrates that it's before the dice pool splits. Bradd asked because the book wasn't clear on whether Specialization was a dice pool modifier or not. The FAQ clarifies that it isn't a modifier in the terms for splitting dice pools.
How is that wrong?
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Looking at Dice Pool Modifiers in the SR4A (p. 60-61), I think I know where some of the confusion is coming in.
The fact is, dice pool modifier is tossed around a lot in generic terms in the book, when they should be saying situational modifiers.
Dice Pool Modifiers
The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what the character is trying to do. The modifier affects the number of dice used in the dice pool. If more than one dice modifier applies, they are added together and applied to the dice pool.
Note that threshold modifiers (p. 63) do not affect the dice pool. Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier as noted above.
Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character’s natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher.
So, it's the Square = Rectangle argument. All situational modifiers are dice pool modifiers, but not all dice pool modifiers are situational modifiers.
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Mathmatically, I don't think it matters when the modifier is applied UNLESS you try to give less dice to an action then it would have normally.
Case in point, spellcasting pool of 6 and a combat spell focus of 4.
6+ 4 = 10, split two ways is 5. That's fine. But the combat spell must at /least/ have 4 dice in it. Otherwise your giving some of those spell focus dice to the manipulation, which doesn't work. Two combat spells though, it can be split in any way. 9 in one, 1 in the other... because all four points of the combat spell focus is going into a combat spell it's legal.
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Mathmatically, I don't think it matters when the modifier is applied UNLESS you try to give less dice to an action then it would have normally.
Case in point, spellcasting pool of 6 and a combat spell focus of 4.
6+ 4 = 10, split two ways is 5. That's fine. But the combat spell must at /least/ have 4 dice in it. Otherwise your giving some of those spell focus dice to the manipulation, which doesn't work. Two combat spells though, it can be split in any way. 9 in one, 1 in the other... because all four points of the combat spell focus is going into a combat spell it's legal.
And that is why I think base pool should just be the Attribute + Skill. Everything else should modify the dice pool after you split it (assuming you split it of course). It would make a lot more actions a lot easier yes, but that works for a cinematic style game. Plus there would be a whole heck of a lot less confusion. But I suppose if you were going for 'gritty' in your game it wouldn't be as desirable.
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Okay, the OP is asking about clarification on whether Specialization is added before or after the dice pool splits. The FAQ demonstrates that it's before the dice pool splits. Bradd asked because the book wasn't clear on whether Specialization was a dice pool modifier or not. The FAQ clarifies that it isn't a modifier in the terms for splitting dice pools.
How is that wrong?
The FAQ is not very helpful because its examples of "anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier" includes two things that are listed as a dice pool modifier. Should we infer that weapon foci are added pre-split, even though the example contradicts the rulebook? Or should we presume that the FAQ writer simply overlooked the fact that weapon foci are different?
The same goes for specialization. Do we infer that the writer meant to clarify the rule for specialization, or did he simply overlook the rule on SR4A p. 68? (Or does it add pre-split despite being a dice pool modifier?) Since the FAQ doesn't directly address the issue of whether it's a dice pool modifier, it's impossible to say which is true.
As for situational modifiers: That's a good point, but there's still the trouble of saying what's "situational." Is a weapon focus situational? I could argue that either way.
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If you assume that a specific rule trumps a general rule, then we come to the following conclusions:
Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill. . .
This is a general statement of intent, "you get two dice added to your die pool".
A specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies.
This is the specific rule on how to implement the intent stated on page 121.
Therefore, if you apply "specific trumps general" logic (and if you don't, every RPG I've looked at falls apart), a specialization is a die pool modifier.
Furthermore, to clarify what FastJack was getting into,
The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what a character is trying to do.
Note the section header, Dice Pool Modifiers. This section defines dice pool modifiers and gives you two choices:
(a) Injury dice pool modifiers
(b) Situational dice pool modifiers.
Further along:
Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier.
So anything that is not part of the basic dice pool is a dice pool modifier.
In fact, we've got another clear statement of intent:
When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool. This dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply.
As previously stated, all modifiers are dice pool modifiers unless explicitly stated otherwise. Further, a dice pool consists of exactly three things, skill, attribute and modifiers. Therefore, at any point, whatsoever, in which the book says "this adds dice to your dice pool", per the aforementioned quotes, it is always a dice pool modifier. Therefore, when splitting your die pool, per the RAW, you take skill + attribute, divide as you desire, then add anything else relavent to the test.
I see absolutely no other interpretation available, barring errata. Specializations and Weapon Foci (and EVERYTHING ELSE) are all dice pool modifiers, added after you split.
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If you assume that a specific rule trumps a general rule, then we come to the following conclusions:
Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill. . .
This is a general statement of intent, "you get two dice added to your die pool".
A specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies.
This is the specific rule on how to implement the intent stated on page 121.
Therefore, if you apply "specific trumps general" logic (and if you don't, every RPG I've looked at falls apart), a specialization is a die pool modifier.
Furthermore, to clarify what FastJack was getting into,
The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what a character is trying to do.
Note the section header, Dice Pool Modifiers. This section defines dice pool modifiers and gives you two choices:
(a) Injury dice pool modifiers
(b) Situational dice pool modifiers.
Further along:
Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier.
So anything that is not part of the basic dice pool is a dice pool modifier.
In fact, we've got another clear statement of intent:
When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool. This dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply.
As previously stated, all modifiers are dice pool modifiers unless explicitly stated otherwise. Further, a dice pool consists of exactly three things, skill, attribute and modifiers. Therefore, at any point, whatsoever, in which the book says "this adds dice to your dice pool", per the aforementioned quotes, it is always a dice pool modifier. Therefore, when splitting your die pool, per the RAW, you take skill + attribute, divide as you desire, then add anything else relavent to the test.
I see absolutely no other interpretation available, barring errata. Specializations and Weapon Foci (and EVERYTHING ELSE) are all dice pool modifiers, added after you split.
Thats kinda how I've always wanted to handle dice pools and modifiers, but could never find in the RAW exactly where it said this, despite the feeling that this was what was intended. Obviously we can't assume that this is the RAI, as you said barring errata there's really just no way to be 100% sure, but when it's lined out like that, it's pretty hard to argue with. Thank you, and +1 street cred.
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The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what a character is trying to do.
Note the section header, Dice Pool Modifiers. This section defines dice pool modifiers and gives you two choices:
(a) Injury dice pool modifiers
(b) Situational dice pool modifiers.
The way that's worded, this isn't necessarily an exhaustive list. However, the rest of your analysis is pretty solid.
The impression I've gotten from developer comments (in the FAQ and on Dumpshock) is that the rule is intended to allow realistic situational modifiers while denying cheese. Unfortunately, there's no bright line between reasonable and cheese. The FAQ says to watch for the key phrase "dice pool modifier," but that leads to treating spell foci and weapon foci differently. Why? Is multicasting more cheesy than multiattacking?
As for specializations, I could see why people would interpret those as being "skill" dice rather than dice pool modifiers. On the other hand, they are situational modifiers ("when the particular specialty applies"), so it also makes some good sense to treat them as dice pool modifiers.
Oh, also:
Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier.
The "otherwise stated" modifiers are things like the skill modifiers granted by the Improved Ability power. Those are subject to the modified skill maximum (1.5 × the natural skill rating) and do count as part of the base dice pool. Attribute modifiers (augmentations) are another example. I don't know if there's anything else.
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Okay, the OP is asking about clarification on whether Specialization is added before or after the dice pool splits. The FAQ demonstrates that it's before the dice pool splits. Bradd asked because the book wasn't clear on whether Specialization was a dice pool modifier or not. The FAQ clarifies that it isn't a modifier in the terms for splitting dice pools.
How is that wrong?
:)
Very easy, the BBB says clearly that Specialisation is a situational modifier.
Modifiers are to be added or subtracted after Poolsplitting.
So ,If FAQ say include it before splitting than they're simply wrong
with a wrong Dance
Medicienman
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The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what a character is trying to do.
Note the section header, Dice Pool Modifiers. This section defines dice pool modifiers and gives you two choices:
(a) Injury dice pool modifiers
(b) Situational dice pool modifiers.
The way that's worded, this isn't necessarily an exhaustive list. However, the rest of your analysis is pretty solid.
Heh, leave it to me to insist on verbatim compliance. Nature of being an engineer, I suppose. I doubt they intended it to be an exhaustive list, but it's the only listing they give me and they don't tell me it isn't exhaustive (they do spell that out for plenty of other things). As a result, my knee-jerk thinking putting that together is "I've got my list, that's what they are, so go away". Regardless, anything not a threshold modifier, or explicitly listed as being other than a dice pool modifier, is a dice pool modifier.
Oh, also:
Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier.
The "otherwise stated" modifiers are things like the skill modifiers granted by the Improved Ability power. Those are subject to the modified skill maximum (1.5 × the natural skill rating) and do count as part of the base dice pool. Attribute modifiers (augmentations) are another example. I don't know if there's anything else.
Yeah, I hadn't thought to go dig up the skill / attribute modifying stuff. I guess I took it for granted that those are the non-dice pool modifiers. Good on ya for being thorough.
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Okay, the OP is asking about clarification on whether Specialization is added before or after the dice pool splits. The FAQ demonstrates that it's before the dice pool splits. Bradd asked because the book wasn't clear on whether Specialization was a dice pool modifier or not. The FAQ clarifies that it isn't a modifier in the terms for splitting dice pools.
How is that wrong?
:)
Very easy, the BBB says clearly that Specialisation is a situational modifier.
Modifiers are to be added or subtracted after Poolsplitting.
So ,If FAQ say include it before splitting than they're simply wrong
with a wrong Dance
Medicienman
Okay, I just scanned through my copy of SR4A and I don't see anywhere that it says Specialization is a situational modifier.
Here's my opinion on the matter: I like the idea of putting Specialization before the split because it's part of the skill you learned. You "buy" the specialization to be better at that aspect of the skill above others. If you're firing twin Predator IV's at somebody, you don't get better at shooting with both Heavy Pistols, you simply better overall with Heavy pistols. Whereas if you're firing both guns at a target you can't see, then you get the Blind Fire modifier on each gun because the environment is working against you hitting the target.
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Quote from: SR4A, pg. 68
A specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies.
I'll try to explain it from a different angle
I like the idea of putting Specialization before the split because it's part of the skill you learned.
Yes,but its applied only in that specific Situation (using the specialized Pistol)
Tracing Ammo is also part of the Pistol you shoot with ;)
If you shoot with tracing ammo it's a situational modifier(you get it when you have Tracer Ammo in the Mag)
Specialisation Heavy Pistols is also a situational modifier(you get it when You shoot heavy Pistols)
Its the same and therefore must be treated the same
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Hmm... I see what you're getting at.
Here's the question though. You're firing two guns and have to split your dice pool. You have a specialization in Heavy Pistols. However, you've got a HP in your main hand and a Light Pistol in you off-hand, so you're told to use the lesser dice pool. Now, they both use the Pistols skill, but HP is specialized. If it's a situational modifier, then the HP gets two more dice than the LP. If it's not, then neither gun gets the bonus.
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Hmm... I see what you're getting at.
Here's the question though. You're firing two guns and have to split your dice pool. You have a specialization in Heavy Pistols. However, you've got a HP in your main hand and a Light Pistol in you off-hand, so you're told to use the lesser dice pool. Now, they both use the Pistols skill, but HP is specialized. If it's a situational modifier, then the HP gets two more dice than the LP. If it's not, then neither gun gets the bonus.
Hmmm ???
If you have the specialisation Heavy Pistols than you get the +2 Bonus (after Splitting the Pool ) for the Heavy Pistol only and not for the light Pistol.Simple as that
so you're told to use the lesser dice pool.
There is no Lesser dice Pool ?!!
the Pool is (f.E.) Pistols 5 and AGI 5 with Special HP.
so you simply split the Pool (5 & 5 Dice) and add +2 Dice for the Hand that holds the heavy Pistol
hokaHey
Medicineman
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Hmm... I see what you're getting at.
Here's the question though. You're firing two guns and have to split your dice pool. You have a specialization in Heavy Pistols. However, you've got a HP in your main hand and a Light Pistol in you off-hand, so you're told to use the lesser dice pool. Now, they both use the Pistols skill, but HP is specialized. If it's a situational modifier, then the HP gets two more dice than the LP. If it's not, then neither gun gets the bonus.
Hmmm ???
If you have the specialisation Heavy Pistols than you get the +2 Bonus (after Splitting the Pool ) for the Heavy Pistol only and not for the light Pistol.Simple as that
so you're told to use the lesser dice pool.
There is no Lesser dice Pool ?!!
the Pool is (f.E.) Pistols 5 and AGI 5 with Special HP.
so you simply split the Pool (5 & 5 Dice) and add +2 Dice for the Hand that holds the heavy Pistol
hokaHey
Medicineman
But, if the Specialization is added before the split, then the HP dice pool would be 12 versus the LP's dice pool of 10.
So, buy your reasoning then, if I'm firing with two HP's and I have specialization, I should get the bonus for each weapon? Even though I'm splitting the skill? This is why I don't think it should be applied after the split. If you can't get bonuses from Smartlinks/Laser Sights for firing two weapons, why should you get a bonus for Specialization?
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For what it's worth, I think the smartlink/laser issue is wholly separate from the pool/modifier thing. While there may be a game balance element to it, I think they're mainly just saying that you can't visually multitask sufficiently to get the targeting assistance. (Personally, I think that would be reflected better by granting the bonus, but before the split.)
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But, if the Specialization is added before the split, then the HP dice pool would be 12 versus the LP's dice pool of 10.
So, buy your reasoning then, if I'm firing with two HP's and I have specialization, I should get the bonus for each weapon?
But ist NOT added BEFORE Splitting(thats why the FAQ failed !!)
its Added AFTER splitting the Pool
and Yes you get the Bonus for both HPs (as well as any other Situational Mod )
Shooting Akimbo is OK if it's a High Noon Duell at 5 Yards distance
But its getting Worse when Sight,Movement ,Wound and other Modifiers are added
you have much more negative than positive Modifier
, why should you get a bonus for Specialization?
I can only repeat myself(or better the BBB); because its by definition a situational Modifier
You could also Ask:"why only a -6 Modifier for Shooting Blind? It should be more ! "
with a specialized Dance
Medicineman
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For what it's worth, I think the smartlink/laser issue is wholly separate from the pool/modifier thing. While there may be a game balance element to it, I think they're mainly just saying that you can't visually multitask sufficiently to get the targeting assistance. (Personally, I think that would be reflected better by granting the bonus, but before the split.)
But, since this argument is all about the wording, I bring it up. I agree that the ruling is as it should be, since the Smartlink isn't "smart enough" to co-ordinate both hands.
@Medicineman
You keep saying the FAQ failed because you disagree with it. I say it succeeded because I agree with it. As I said before, I don't see anywhere in the SR4A/BBB that says Specialization is a situational modifier. It says it's a dice pool modifier, but does not confirm that it's situational. Are you saying that all dice pool modifiers are situational?
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I think he is saying that the FAQ fails because it contradicts the rules as written, not simply because he doesn't like it. Even if that's the rule as intended, it's not the FAQ's place to fix that kind of error. (Which is why this discussion is in the errata forum, BTW.)
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You keep saying the FAQ failed because you disagree with it.
:)
No I say they Fail because they contradict the BBB
(just what Bradd is saying/writing)
JahtaHey
Medicineman
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You keep saying the FAQ failed because you disagree with it. I say it succeeded because I agree with it. As I said before, I don't see anywhere in the SR4A/BBB that says Specialization is a situational modifier. It says it's a dice pool modifier, but does not confirm that it's situational. Are you saying that all dice pool modifiers are situational?
Why does it matter if they are situational?
Split the pool before applying modifiers.
The RAW doesn't say "situational" modifiers, it says modifiers, period. We've already explained that all changes to a die pool are considered die pool modifiers unless explicitly stated otherwise. The rules also say that (as stated above) specializations are dice pool modifiers. Therefore, the RAW explicitly tells us that they are added after splitting.
I seem to remember seeing somewhere a general description of splitting dice pools that wasn't part of the ranged combat section, if someone remembers where this is, 10k ¥ and a point of karma.
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Specialization is mentioned three times in the SR4A. Only once (p. 68) is labeled a dice pool modifier. On pages 84, 121 it says as +2 dice to the skill.
Neko wants a sneaky character whose specialty is urban areas. Neko takes the Urban specialization for her Infiltration skill. She writes in on her character sheet as Infiltration 5 (Urban + 2). That means she rolls 5 dice (plus attribute) for her skill on Infiltration Tests, and 7 dice (plus attribute) when infiltrating in an urban area.
To me, the line on page 68 labeling it a dice pool modifier is the part that is in disagreement with everything else. If you look at the original SR4 book, p. 63, it does not say dice pool modifier and it wasn't updated by the Errata for the book.
Since the original book, two-thirds of the SR4A and the FAQ all treat Specialization as an addition to the dice and not a dice pool modifier. So, until otherwise, I'll rule it as before the split until something more concrete comes along. I'll not ask y'all to do the same if you disagree, just giving you my reasons for doing so.
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I seem to remember seeing somewhere a general description of splitting dice pools that wasn't part of the ranged combat section, if someone remembers where this is, 10k ¥ and a point of karma.
Melee Attacks
Multiple Targets
Characters may attack more than one opponent in melee with the same Complex Action, as long as those opponents are within one meter of each other. The attacker’s dice pool is split between each attack, and each attack is handled separately.
Casting Multiple Spells: In some circumstances, a magician may seek to cast multiple spells simultaneously (including multiples of the same spell—for example, targeting two different opponents with a mana bolt in the same action). Multiple spells may be cast with the same Complex Action, but to do so the magician must split her Spellcasting + Magic dice pool between each target. Additionally, the Drain Value for each of the spells is increased by +1 per additional spell (Drain Resistance Tests are also handled separately). Multiple spells are resolved in whatever order the caster desires. The maximum number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least one die.
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....
Since the original book, two-thirds of the SR4A and the FAQ all treat Specialization as an addition to the dice and not a dice pool modifier. So, until otherwise, I'll rule it as before the split until something more concrete comes along. I'll not ask y'all to do the same if you disagree, just giving you my reasons for doing so.
What I often perceive here in Germany is that a lot of Players that were used to SR 2nd or 3rd consider a Specialisation as a raise of the original skill .They often write down f.e.
Pistols 5 (Heavy Pistols 7) because they're used to it from former Editions.But thats wrong. The Rules changed in SR4A . Its now Pistols 5 (Heavy Pistols +2) because its simply a modifier. Its just as "wrong" to write down Pistols 5 (Smart 7)
And It might be that because of this.....reminescence (I hope its the right word?) from former Editions that some have trouble accepting the Specialisation as a simple Modifier .
The Rules state that everything which does not directly raise Attributes( like Cyberware) or the natural Skill(like Adeptpowers or Reflexrecorder or some advantages like natural Athlete)
is a modifier which is to be added or subtracted after splitting the Pool
And Yes I don't like the FAQ but not because I disagree but because the one who did them did'nt bother to check the RAW and this produces a lot of disagreement and explaining here in Germany.
Can you Imagine how often I have to read:"But the FAQ says...."
I don't want to say I hate explaining the right rules to the german folk,but sometimes its getting....cumbersome (lästig in German)to discuss these wrong answers Month after Month.
(and its not easier in English :) )
I would've gladly accepted and welcomed the FAQ If they woul've been in Line with the RAW.As they are now they're a pain in the....Behind
with Dance after Dance
Medicineman
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I guess I just consider it not to be a modifier like you said. Instead, I look at it that if a person chooses Heavy Pistols as their specialization, then when they use any other type of pistols, their skill rating is +5. If they are using HP, then their skill rating is +7.
If only we could get somebody that's worked on the game to poke his head in here and give an idea of what the intentions of the rules were. Like a developer or something... ;)
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I guess the Intention of the rules are to be simple and playable.
I think that adding all Modifiers (including Specialisation) after is simple.
the FAQ answer only makes it more ....uncofortably (ImO)
But now I have to go to Klingencon(small RPG Convention with about 200 People)
to play for the next 30-36 Hours SR and Fallout RPG
HokaHey
Medicineman
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@Medicine Awesome. Have fun at the con.
As for my opinion on the specialization ruling, I have been plying since the tail-end of 1st ed, really started up in 2nd. I have a lot of old assumptions and notions of the rules and I'm constantly having to read, re-read, and re-re-read the SR4A book to knock the antiquated rules ideas from my head to replace them with the new ones. This has been one of those times. After reading all the dice pool and modifier and dice pool modification sections, I have come to the conclusion that Medicine is correct in this case.
The new 4thE 20A rules do state that a dice pool is the skill + Attribute + direct attribute/skill modifiers (such as Improved Ability and Improved Physical Attribute - and other cyber/bioware with similar effects), and that is what would be split when splitting your dice pool. Everything else - such as specializations and combat modifiers (and smartlink if it didn't specifically state otherwise) would be added after the split under the new RAW.
At least that's the way I see/interpret it as of now after my 3rd re-read, and that's how I will run it until I see some errata. Much as I do find the FAQ quite helpful in most situations for clarification, I must admit that there are a lot of flubs in it where it contradicts the RAW - IMO.
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Since the original book, two-thirds of the SR4A and the FAQ all treat Specialization as an addition to the dice and not a dice pool modifier.
Whats the difference between these 2, addition to dicepool is by very definition a dicepool modifier.
Or are you saying that speciliasation is an actuall increase to the skill, that would mean that an adept with 6 in a skill and 3 levels of improved ability couldn't take any specialization at all as that would raise the skill over augmented maximim and thats just idiotic and somethink i think they would mention in the rules for specializations.
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In my opinion, it's "special". It should be considered part of the skill, but is not limited to the maximum.
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That's a reasonable opinion, but it's also something that should be spelled out in the rules if true. We already have rules for skill modifiers, and they'd be very limiting if applied to specializations.
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Not only do I agree with Bradd on the implications of your opinion, FastJack (and the need to have it spelled out, if so), but, When you say "two-thirds of the SR4A and FAQ all treat Specialization as an addition to the dice", I have to disagree from a RAW perspective.
The only place that treats it as an increase to your skill vice an addition to your dice pool is the FAQ, which, not being an errata is a collection of opinions and interpretations, and doesn't trump the book.
In the book itself, you have two places which talk about how to add in specialization. One of them specifically calls it a dice pool modifier, the other says the following:
Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test.
Not only does that not say it adds to the skill, it says it adds to the test which sounds like an informal way of saying dice pool to me. That would make it a dice pool modifier, as page 68 explicitly tells us it is.
Barring an errata, the only option available in the RAW is to treat it as a dice pool modifier.
You're proposition of making a third category, skill modifiers not subject to the limitations of max augmented skill, seems cumbersome compared to treating it as a dice pool modifier, and unnecessary, to boot.
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OK here was my original interpretation:
Enhanced articulation and Specialization are Dice Pool modifiers. So they become part of your Dice Pool and then you have to split them. Everything on the appropriate table of Modifiers is applied afterward.
This really only seems right because it limiting to player success.
Here are the 2 most pertinent pieces of data.
1.A dice pool is Skill + Attribute + Modifiers
2. When splitting dice pools, apply Modifiers separately.
I can find no clear distinction between "player bonuses" and situational modifiers. So im with the Germans. Screw the FAQ. And WTF? to the developers for not providing Complicated Examples and Definite Wording!
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Neko wants a sneaky character whose specialty is urban areas. Neko takes the Urban specialization for her Infiltration skill. She writes in on her character sheet as Infiltration 5 (Urban + 2). That means she rolls 5 dice (plus attribute) for her skill on Infiltration Tests, and 7 dice (plus attribute) when infiltrating in an urban area.
The key text here is "when infiltrating in an urban area." This to me screams SITUATION. And as even FastJack has said, situational modifiers are, inherently, dice pool modifiers, and as such are added AFTER splitting not before. To me, if the points ever don't apply (except in exigent circumstances such as background count where abilities are removed and removal or destruction of cyberware), they are situational modifiers and must be added AFTER splitting the base pool. So if all else is equal, and you are infiltrating a camp in a desert you don't add the two dice, if you are infiltrating a hospital, you apply the dice AFTER you split the pool. The term "when applicable" dictates it as a situational modifier.
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I believe 'Jack is operating under the assumption that FAQ = RAI, and RAI > RAW. Unless you plan to disabuse him of these assumptions, this thread will go nowhere.
For the record, I agree with most people here in that all modifiers which do not modify the skill or Attribute itself are dice pool modifiers, and that includes specialties.
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I believe 'Jack is operating under the assumption that FAQ = RAI, and RAI > RAW. Unless you plan to disabuse him of these assumptions, this thread will go nowhere.
For the record, I agree with most people here in that all modifiers which do not modify the skill or Attribute itself are dice pool modifiers, and that includes specialties.
My assumptions are for how I run my games and should be taken that way.
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Hey Jack, why do you have so much negative rep? You are always pretty calm and collected in everything I have seen you post here. Is it just haters who don't like it when you close threads or something?
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Probably because people on the internet like to stick it to people they disagree with.
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Hey Jack, why do you have so much negative rep? You are always pretty calm and collected in everything I have seen you post here. Is it just haters who don't like it when you close threads or something?
It's the number of times everyone has to go, "No, not that FastJack, the one that's in the books.", or "Our FastJack, here, not the In-Universe FastJack." :P
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Hey Jack, why do you have so much negative rep? You are always pretty calm and collected in everything I have seen you post here. Is it just haters who don't like it when you close threads or something?
It's the number of times everyone has to go, "No, not that FastJack, the one that's in the books.", or "Our FastJack, here, not the In-Universe FastJack." :P
Close.