Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Slazarith on <12-06-11/0141:00>
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I've picked up a strain of adept hate from many of my fellow Shadowrunners, both in personal interaction and on the forums.
What's up with that?
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Well from my understanding you hit the nail on the head with your title. Personally I like them a lot, but I like cybernetics more. I've always been a borg player at heart and rarely play the magically inclined unless requested to do so (read as forced by GM to play something else).
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There are always going to be people out there that think if you're not doing the absolute max damage, throwing the absolute max dice, or otherwise amping things up to their most insane maximum that you're doing it wrong. On the WOTC forums, these are the people who brought you PunPun, the War Hulking Hurler ("how much EXP do you get for destroying Toril?" "All of it."), mathematical arguments trying to prove that fighters are useless because barbarians and rogues can do more damage than they can, and so on.
Here, there are people who disparage adepts, because unless you're looking at the Way of the Burnout, you're not getting chrome, and so aren't cheesing things up as much as you possibly can. Personally, I like adepts, though I admit I have a bias against mystic adepts from my D&D experience, that says when you split your time between two casting classes, you're going to suck at both. But that is my personal opinion.
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Do you want to know why they are suboptimal? Or do you just want to know why some people don't like playing suboptimal characters?
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Do you want to know why they are suboptimal? Or do you just want to know why some people don't like playing suboptimal characters?
Personally, I'd like to hear both.
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Why some people don't like playing suboptimal characters varies from person to person. With adepts, the problem tends to be that they generally wind up being shitty hyperspecialized versions of street samurai that can do less stuff and are also worse at the stuff they do. This is OK if you don't have anyone else on your team trying to be good at fighting, but it's easy to accidentally make characters where you have an adept who, say, focused heavily on melee combat, and is just worse at it than the street samurai who picked it up as a secondary thing and can also do other stuff.
Of course, power is relative and you can certainly make adepts work if the GM and other players cooperate. In that sense, playing an adept isn't particularly different from playing a goofy or poorly constructed character of a different archetype. Also, not everyone cares and if it doesn't bother you then you don't need to worry about it.
Why they suck:
First, let me be specific. Unaugmented, non-mystic adepts suck. Augmented adepts are OK, so are mystic adepts (unless you use the SR4+FAQ rules for mystic adepts, instead of the SR4A ones, and don't also throw mystic adepts something else like using the best interpretation of Heightened Concentration, but that's a separate discussion). There's two parts, "how do you know they are shitty" and "why did this happen?"
How I know: you cannot build an unaugmented adept who would not be strictly better off implanting some ware, without doing something like building a guy who sucks at everything because he optimized himself into a super-specific niche like being the best in the world at Artisan (Pie Eating), or by cutting 'ware off as a route by being a critter or infected or having Sensitive System. This one's been discussed to death and you can see http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4610.45 for a discussion.
Why did this happen: basically, someone at Catalyst keeps on taking on OH SNAP clauses to adept powers to make them suck, and/or overpricing them. EG, multitasking (1 PP for the ability to Observe In Detail as a free action (useful, but sure as hell not worth 1 PP) and the ability to take 2 free actions per pass. Nice niche power, right? OH SNAP, you can't use the second free action in combat. Wait, when else do you track actions?)
Other lollerific ones: Melanin control. Because it would be SO BROKEN for a black adept to be able to disguise himself as being white with his magic powers. You know, like what he could do with a simple goddamn piece of gear.
Distance Strike: honestly, I'm pretty sure this one is just a joke.
The other main cause is that there are some adept powers that are brutally overpriced and really shouldn't be, like Improved Physical Attribute, and the result is that adepts lose out hard to street samurai because they pay a ton more for things like attribute increases.
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See, I'm going to have to disagree with Umaro here. I've always found that Mystic Adepts suck, while regular adepts can be quite effective. Of course, as has been shown in other forums, I don't go out to make the most Uber characters ever. Also note that while chrome and gear may show up in scanners and be confiscated, or not allowed in a certain situation, an adept always has their powers.
Ways to do an Adept well:
1) Pick up at least one rank of Increase Reflexes, maybe two if you want. 2-3 IP is really all you need, in most cases.
2) Pick a theme for the rest of your powers. If you're a social adept, take powers that focus on social skills. If you're a combat adept, take powers that help your combat abilities. If you're a thief, things like wall-crawling and freefall are excellent choices.
3) Place your magic at 5 during chargen. You can raise it later easily enough, but it isn't worth the extra 15 BP to max it at chargen.
4) Skills. Keep with your niche, but at the very least pick up Dodge (or gymnastics), at least a rank or two in a firearms skill, and at least a rank or two in a melee weapon skill.
5) Gear. Gear is your friend. You won't be spending tons of money on ware, like the samurai will, so get as good armor as you can, and some decent weapons. Then just add things in to fit your character. A chameleon suit for a thief, empathy software for a face, etc.
With the right use of skills and powers, you can be effective in combat, even if you aren't a combat-focused adept, and still be very effective in your area of expertise.
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^ Noone's saying that's wrong, Mirikon.
Do all that and you can be pretty effective in your niche and somewhat effective in combat.
But take that char, stick a couple of pieces of 'ware in it (lowering magic & power points by 1 or two) and it'll be better in everything it can do. Depending on the build, a lot better too.
So: That's why people say straight adepts are sub-optimal. They're functional, but very often can (easily) be made a lot better by a few 'ware tweaks.
As example, let's take your social adept. Put in Tailored Pheromones (R3, 0.6 essence). Then depending on if you want offence Muscle Toner (R2, 0.4) essence or defense Synthacardium (R3, 0.3 essence; 0.1 left for maybe a Smuggling Compartment or Fiberoptic hair or whatever). Bam! Your social adept suddenly gained 3 dice to pretty much all social skills and 2 dice to all attacks or other agi-related things (infiltration?) or 3 dice to gymnastic dodge and any other athletic test.
Sure, a little bit is lost by dropping Magic by a point, but not much compared to the gain.
-- I'm certain this could be done a lot better, just wanted to give a quick & easy example.--
I'm not advocating that every adept should get 'ware of otherwise suck. This is still a roleplaying game and there's a lot to say for flavor; awakened characters do get this "hole" in them by getting implants and all. But from a purely optimization point of view: straight adept = sub-optimal.
Edit: Added example and last line.
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Well, for that same power point for a social adept, I could get Commanding Voice (.25 PP), Linguistics (.25 PP), and Voice Control (.5 PP). Yes, these might not seem like the most overwhelming powers, but they give you a ton of options.
Of course, now might be a good time to say that, out of all the magic items in D&D, my two favorites are the Hat of Disguise and Shiftweave. The hat allows you to change your appearance, including looking like someone you've seen before, and Shiftweave turns into five different outfits on command. Simple things, but they open up so many options, especially if you're looking to do more than stab things in the face.
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Commanding Voice has got to be one of the very few powers that probably costs way too little compared to what it can do. Dropping that, as a social adept, would be kind of silly. Voice control is quite handy too, the ventriloquism thing can really be handy and it's stricly better at beating Voice Recognition Systems than similar gear.
If you're going to select powers to drop, let's do it realistically with some of the staple social adept powers:
Improved ability(con), improved ability(etiquette), improved ability(intimidate), improved ability(negotiation), etc. A +3 to any one of them would cost 0.75PP's, +3 to all 6 social skills would cost you 4.5PP.
Or, get a piece of Bioware installed: All of them combined with one piece of 'ware that costs you 1PP and room left for some other cool implants.
Even dropping Kinesics -Pheromones' magical counterpart- would be mathematically better, with 1PP you can only get it for +2.
Though I'm not trying to come up with silly comparisons just to make an argument seem less true: Of course you want to stack both Kinesics and the Bioware to get a +6 total.
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The question of how "sub-optimal" an adept is somewhat dependent on the nature of the campaign. In a low powered campaign, and I think there is some evidence that the game designers had lower powered games in mind when the wrote the core rules,(look at the sample characters, for instance) they are not that far behind. The higher power/more optimized the game gets the more behind the adept tends to be, and the more hyper specialized they tend to get in an effort to compete.
My main complaint about adepts is that whatever area an adept focuses on, in nearly all cases you are further ahead to give up a point or two of magic and spend the essence on some bioware. You can get vastly more advantage from those one-two points of essence than you can from the one-two points of magic. It has always annoyed me.
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So, everyone unanimously agrees that the benefits aren't balanced with the price? (Or the other way around, if that's how you wanna look at it)
Fine. I like adepts, or rather, the idea of them, but I can see that.
What should be done then? Because besides house-ruling the the shit out of them, there's no way to make it any better. It's something that's bugged me for a long time.
That is, that for their game, they put forth all this effort to make everything have an in-game counterpoint. On one hand, you have the Matrix, On the other, astral. Spirits for magic, sprites and drone to match. And mirroring street sams, adepts. But the effort that was put forth didn't seem to be expanded to make them actually balanced.
Now, in reality, things aren't going to have perfect opposites. Just the way it works. In the real world, if magic were in the world and tech was this advanced, one would probably outstrip the other. But no one wrote reality. When it comes to a game, and more specifically, a game of a genre that's basis is the ability to be a rendition of your perfect self (no matter how imperfect your ideal might be), it makes no sense to me to write in the ability to be something that isn't a viable solution in-game.
Ranting aside, what would you propose needs to be done to make adepts an viable choice for the player who still want to be cool, without having more chrome than a Harley convention? Because I personally want to kick ass without having to replace my short-and-curlies with monomolecular wire.
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^ No one is saying they suck, just that they aren't "optimal". They are still a very viable choice for a player who wants to be cool, adepts ARE cool. Anyone can get a cyberlimb and wires installed to become a street sam, adepts can do the craziest stuff without needing 'ware.
There's nothing special that needs to be done to make an adept a decent fighter, in fact he can be an awesome one.
There's a couple of advantages to being an adept instead of a street sam too. Like not setting of every MAD and/or Cyberware scanner you come close to.
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True, but there's drawbacks of being an adept as well, like background count messing you up when street samurai are fine.
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Meh. I like my adepts and I think they are perfectly optimal. In my experience, a PhysAd Initiate with a Rating 6 Weapon Focus is one of the few things on the planet that can stand toe-to-toe with a CyberZombie (yes, even with hazing).
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You mean, a physad holding an ordinary weapon? Foci get their ratings reduced by background count, and a -6 essence cyberzombie would drop a force 6 weapon focus down to 0.
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I can't say why some people hate adepts, but they sure as frak aren't sub-optimal.
A simple fact is that there are very few niches in this game where being an adept won't make you better then mundane, as pretty much anything a mundane can do, an adept can do it better.
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On the WOTC forums, these are the people who brought you PunPun, the War Hulking Hurler ("how much EXP do you get for destroying Toril?" "All of it."), mathematical arguments trying to prove that fighters are useless because barbarians and rogues can do more damage than they can, and so on.
I'm gonna take umbrage to this statement. These aren't the same people. The people who bring up Pun-Pun and Hulking Hurlers throwing moons are the ones who don't understand the concept of THEORETICAL optimization as opposed to PRACTICAL optimization. Pun-Pun is the former. A Rogue with a Ring of Blinking throwing flasks is the latter.
Sorry, don't have much else to add to the conversation, but as someone who frequents the WotC boards and pushes for practical optimization and high amounts of roleplay, I couldn't let someone go and bash the morons of the board while including the rest of us. :P
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I can't say why some people hate adepts, but they sure as frak aren't sub-optimal.
A simple fact is that there are very few niches in this game where being an adept won't make you better then mundane, as pretty much anything a mundane can do, an adept can do it better.
Are you including the augmented in the mundane?
As Umaro said earlier, the maths on this has been done quite a few times.
Anyway -
WAYS TO MAKE ADEPTS BETTER
The first and most obvious is to hand out the Way of the Adept path for free. Immediate points reduction. I don't know if that completely closes the gap, but it goes a fair way towards doing so (I'd also take out Way of the Burnout to discourage augmented adepts, who don't need encouragement).
After that - well, I'd have to see how far that got you. Buts it an obvious quick and easy boost.
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I can't say why some people hate adepts, but they sure as frak aren't sub-optimal.
A simple fact is that there are very few niches in this game where being an adept won't make you better then mundane, as pretty much anything a mundane can do, an adept can do it better.
It's pure adepts that are sub-optimal. It's quite easy to grab the low hanging fruit of both the adept and ware trees. Cybered adepts are fine. They tend to be more specialized than mundanes, but better at whatever niche they pick. That's a fair trade-off in most games. But, most people don't want to play cybered adepts. They want to play pure adepts.
Pure adepts run into several issues. The first is that many adepts powers are too expensive for just being simple keeping up with mundanes. The second is that a lot of the cool adept powers are either just nifty (slightly reduced falling damage) or overbalanced (the restriction on melanin control, keratin growth's drain). There's also the fact that it's a common assumption that adepts are the melee character type." Therefore in addition the issues pure adepts have, they also run into the all the issues melee has*. Ultimately you end up seeing a lot of pure adepts who spent a lot of effort on being as good as the street samurai who decided to having a cyberspur would be cool.
Sadly the fix for this is extremely hard. Critias's effort with the Way of the Adept is laudable and a very good start. However you then run into the issue that the good adept power list is quite short. This combined with the fact that powers don't really scale with magic rating means what ultimately happens is PP discounts just let you get the good out of adepts for less. Then you start waring it up. Cybered adepts are just fine, but they get the same power boost from discounted adept powers that pure adepts do.
*- That is not to say you can't make a good meleer in SR. It's just that it's harder from both a character creation and tactical standpoints than most people assume it'll be.
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You mean, a physad holding an ordinary weapon? Foci get their ratings reduced by background count, and a -6 essence cyberzombie would drop a force 6 weapon focus down to 0.
You mean a -6 Essence Cyberzombie would drop it by 4 points in a 6 meter radius. All CZ's have a BC of 4.
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You mean, a physad holding an ordinary weapon? Foci get their ratings reduced by background count, and a -6 essence cyberzombie would drop a force 6 weapon focus down to 0.
You mean a -6 Essence Cyberzombie would drop it by 4 points in a 6 meter radius. All CZ's have a BC of 4.
Thanks, Mason.
Yep, so the PhysAd still has a Rating 2 Weapon Focus, plus whatever powers they still have left, meaning they can still hurt the thing MUCH worse than any other weapon (Immunity to Normal Weapons) like grenades, missiles, rockets, bullets, etc. So, when fighting the Cyberzombie, which would you rather have, a PhysAd or a Thor shot? Because he's definitely walking away from the one that ain't magical.
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We allow Adepts to bye extra PP for karma as also was an option in SR3 up to maximum Magic/2 extra PP. And we use Way of the Adept.
I guess there still could be some more choices but I think pure adepts are fine if not as powerful.
Rasmus
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Thor shot would still work. You can't have cyberzombies with less than -6 Essence, and even then their immunity to normal weapons only gives 12 hardened armor. Thor shots obliterate everything within 200m, and deals 30P (-5 per 100m) for everything outside the first 200m. Even dragons would have trouble surviving a Thor shot.
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The Saint Of Killers, OTOH, would just stand there and go, "Need more gun." ;D
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You mean, a physad holding an ordinary weapon? Foci get their ratings reduced by background count, and a -6 essence cyberzombie would drop a force 6 weapon focus down to 0.
You mean a -6 Essence Cyberzombie would drop it by 4 points in a 6 meter radius. All CZ's have a BC of 4.
Thanks, Mason.
Yep, so the PhysAd still has a Rating 2 Weapon Focus, plus whatever powers they still have left, meaning they can still hurt the thing MUCH worse than any other weapon (Immunity to Normal Weapons) like grenades, missiles, rockets, bullets, etc. So, when fighting the Cyberzombie, which would you rather have, a PhysAd or a Thor shot? Because he's definitely walking away from the one that ain't magical.
Oops, you are correct. Let me review the cyberzombie rules again.
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Alright, you have got to be shitting me. What? A melee adept is perhaps the single worst type of character possible to go toe to toe with a cyberzombie, and will get their ass handed to them unless the GM is running the cyberzombie and sandbagging/fudging dice like mad. Or unless by "initiate" you mean like rank 6 initiate with Magic 12 or something crazy like that.
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Are you including the augmented in the mundane?
Yes, almost any augments a mundane can get, an adept can get too.
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Are you including the augmented in the mundane?
Yes, almost any augments a mundane can get, an adept can get too.
Well, then I think a lot of people will agree with you. Augmented adepts can be optimal and aren't weak - they are paying more to specialize more and that's not at all an unreasonable thing in Shadowrun. It is pure (non-augmented) adepts that a lot of people are saying are suboptimal.
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I dunno. I think the nastiest thing I've ever seen was a completely unaugmented Troll Drake Adept with a combat focus.
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Right, with you now Max. What Umaro said.
If I had to rank them in terms of optimal it would go
Augmented Adept
Augmented
Adept
They're all useful, you can have fun with all of them, but if you must have the most effective character possible you go with them in that order. I would also say that the gap between Augmented Adept and Augmented is slimmer than that between Augmented and Adept.
Note: I am thinking solely of combat here. Doing little sums in my head, I think the Adept trumps the Augmented as a Faceman... again, the Augmented Adept is for the win.
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Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier. In fact I had to tone the adept down to keep from getting too ridiculous. (11P DV with -3 AP just ain't right, so I dropped it down to 9P DV).
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Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier. In fact I had to tone the adept down to keep from getting too ridiculous. (11P DV with -3 AP just ain't right, so I dropped it down to 9P DV).
Out of curiousity, can we see the sheets? I have some guesses of what the characters look like, but I'll like to see.
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Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier. In fact I had to tone the adept down to keep from getting too ridiculous. (11P DV with -3 AP just ain't right, so I dropped it down to 9P DV).
I guarantee you, this is because the augmented adept is taking silly things instead of effective things. Post the sheets.
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Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier. In fact I had to tone the adept down to keep from getting too ridiculous. (11P DV with -3 AP just ain't right, so I dropped it down to 9P DV).
I guarantee you, this is because the augmented adept is taking silly things instead of effective things. Post the sheets.
You misunderstand, the augmented wasn't an adept. Pure cyber and/or bio implants. I would never, ever ever put implants in an adept.
Augmented Troll.
[spoiler]
== Info ==
Street Name: Truck
Name: Maxwell Schmidt
Movement: 15/35, Swim: 7
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Troll Male Age 28
Height 8'6" Weight 600 lbs
Composure: 4
Judge Intentions: 4
Lift/Carry: 20 (165 kg/110 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 2900
== Attributes ==
BOD: 9
AGI: 4 (6)
REA: 3 (5)
STR: 9 (11)
CHA: 1
INT: 3
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 4
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 1.0
Initiative: 6 (8)
IP: 1 (3)
Matrix Initiative: 8
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 13
Stun Damage Track: 10
== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling : 0 Pool: 2
Animal Training : 0 Pool: 2
Archery : 0 Pool: 5
Armorer : 0 Pool: 1
Artisan : 0 Pool: 2
Automatics : 4 [Submachine Guns] Pool: 12 (14)
Blades : 4 [Axes] Pool: 10 (12)
Climbing : 1 Pool: 12
Clubs : 0 Pool: 5
Computer : 0 Pool: 1
Cybercombat : 0 Pool: 1
Data Search : 0 Pool: 1
Disguise : 0 Pool: 2
Diving : 0 Pool: 8
Dodge : 4 Pool: 9
Escape Artist : 0 Pool: 5
First Aid : 0 Pool: 1
Flight : 1 Pool: 12
Forgery : 0 Pool: 5
Gunnery : 0 Pool: 5
Gymnastics : 1 Pool: 7
Hacking : 0 Pool: 1
Heavy Weapons : 0 Pool: 7
Infiltration : 4 Pool: 10
Locksmith : 0 Pool: 5
Longarms : 0 Pool: 7
Navigation : 0 Pool: 2
Palming : 0 Pool: 5
Parachuting : 0 Pool: 8
Perception : 4 Pool: 7
Pilot Ground Craft : 1 [Wheeled] Pool: 6 (8)
Pilot Watercraft : 0 Pool: 4
Pistols : 0 Pool: 7
Riding : 0 Pool: 4
Running : 1 Pool: 12
Shadowing : 0 Pool: 2
Survival : 0 Pool: 2
Swimming : 1 Pool: 12
Throwing Weapons : 0 Pool: 5
Tracking : 0 Pool: 2
Unarmed Combat : 6 [Martial Arts] Pool: 12 (14)
== Knowledge Skills ==
Alcohol : 3 Pool: 6
English : N Pool: 0
Music : 3 Pool: 6
Or'zet : 5 Pool: 8
Sports : 3 [Urban Brawl] Pool: 6 (8)
== Contacts ==
Fence (3, 5)
Fixer (3, 4)
== Qualities ==
Hawk Eye
Incompetent (Demolitions)
SINner (Criminal) (UCAS)
Thermographic Vision
Uncouth
== Lifestyles ==
Middle 2 months
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Bone Density Augmentation Rating 4
Dermal Plating Rating 2
Muscle Augmentation Rating 2
Muscle Toner Rating 2
Wired Reflexes Rating 2
== Armor ==
Armor Jacket 12/8
+Delta-Amyloid
+Gel Packs
+Nonconductivity 6
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit10/4
+Delta-Amyloid
+Gel Packs
+Nonconductivity 6
== Weapons ==
Combat Axe
+Custom Look Rating 2
DV: 10P AP: -1 RC: 2
FN P93 Praetor w/ Electronic Firing
+Stock
+Underbarrel Weight
+Custom Look Rating 2
+Electronic Firing
+Flashlight, Standard
+Gas Vent 3
+Trigger Removal
DV: 5P AP: - RC: 9
Unarmed Attack
DV: 9P AP: - RC: 0
== Commlink ==
Custom Commlink (5, 5, 5, 2)
+Custom Commlink OS [Firewall 5, System 5]
+FTL Matrixware Net Wizard [Analyze 3, Browse 3, Command 1, Edit 2, Purge 3]
== Gear ==
Contact Lenses Rating 3
+Image Link
+Smartlink
DocWagon Contract: Basic
Earbuds Rating 3
+Audio Enhancement Rating 3
Goggles Rating 3
+Vision Enhancement Rating 3
+Vision Magnification
+Low Light
Medkit Rating 6 x2
Spare Clip (Submachine Gun) x10
+Ammo: Regular Ammo (Submachine Guns)
== Vehicles ==
Harley-Davidson Scorpion (Chopper)
+Metahuman Adjustment, Troll
+Pimped Ride Level 2
+Vehicle Sensor
[/spoiler]
Now the Adept.
[spoiler]
== Info ==
Street Name: Mack
Name: Victor Harmon
Movement: 15/35, Swim: 7
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Troll Male Age 27
Height 8'6" Weight 600 lbs
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 5
Lift/Carry: 16 (135 kg/90 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 3400
== Attributes ==
BOD: 7
AGI: 4 (5)
REA: 3 (4)
STR: 9
CHA: 2
INT: 3
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 3
MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 6 (7)
IP: 1 (2)
Astral Initiative: 6
Astral IP: 3
Matrix Initiative: 6
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 12
Stun Damage Track: 11
== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling : 0 Pool: 2
Animal Training : 0 Pool: 2
Archery : 0 Pool: 4
Armorer : 0 Pool: 1
Artisan : 0 Pool: 2
Automatics : 0 Pool: 4
Blades : 0 Pool: 4
Climbing : 1 Pool: 10
Clubs : 0 Pool: 4
Computer : 0 Pool: 1
Con : 0 Pool: 1
Cybercombat : 0 Pool: 1
Data Search : 0 Pool: 1
Demolitions : 0 Pool: 1
Disguise : 0 Pool: 2
Diving : 0 Pool: 6
Dodge : 4 Pool: 8
Escape Artist : 0 Pool: 4
Etiquette : 1 Pool: 3
First Aid : 0 Pool: 1
Flight : 1 Pool: 10
Forgery : 0 Pool: 4
Gunnery : 0 Pool: 4
Gymnastics : 1 Pool: 6
Hacking : 0 Pool: 1
Heavy Weapons : 0 Pool: 4
Infiltration : 4 Pool: 9
Instruction : 0 Pool: 1
Intimidation : 0 Pool: 1
Leadership : 0 Pool: 1
Locksmith : 0 Pool: 4
Longarms : 0 Pool: 4
Navigation : 0 Pool: 2
Negotiation : 1 Pool: 3
Palming : 0 Pool: 4
Parachuting : 0 Pool: 6
Perception : 4 Pool: 7
Pilot Ground Craft : 1 [Wheeled] Pool: 5 (7)
Pilot Watercraft : 0 Pool: 3
Pistols : 0 Pool: 4
Riding : 0 Pool: 3
Running : 1 Pool: 10
Shadowing : 0 Pool: 2
Survival : 0 Pool: 4
Swimming : 1 Pool: 10
Throwing Weapons : 0 Pool: 4
Tracking : 0 Pool: 2
Unarmed Combat : 5 [Martial Arts] Pool: 12 (14)
== Knowledge Skills ==
Bars and Clubs : 3 Pool: 6
Magical Threats : 3 Pool: 6
== Contacts ==
Fixer (3, 2)
== Qualities ==
Adept
Poor Self Control (Vindictive)
Sensitive System
SINner (Criminal) (UCAS)
The Warrior's Way
Thermographic Vision
== Powers ==
Counterstrike Rating: 2
Critical Strike Rating: 4
Improved Ability (Combat) (Unarmed Combat) Rating: 2
Improved Physical Attribute (AGI) Rating: 1
Improved Reflexes 1
Killing Hands
Nerve Strike
Penetrating Strike Rating: 3
== Lifestyles ==
Downtown Efficiency 3 months
Comforts: Low
Entertainment: Middle
Necessities: Low
Neighborhood: Middle
Security: Middle
Qualities: Easy-Going Landlord [1LP]
AI in Residence [-3LP]
Network Bottleneck [-1LP]
== Armor ==
Armor Jacket 8/6
+Nonconductivity 6
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
+Nonconductivity 6
SecureTech PPP Armor (Ensemble)2/6
== Weapons ==
Unarmed Attack
DV: 9P AP: - RC: 0
== Commlink ==
Novatech Airware (3, 3, 3, 3)
+Iris Orb
+AR Gloves
+FTL Matrixware Net Wizard [Analyze 3, Browse 3, Command 1, Edit 2, Purge 3]
== Gear ==
Contact Lenses Rating 3
+Vision Enhancement Rating 3
+Image Link
+Flare Compensation
DocWagon Contract: Basic
Earbuds Rating 3
+Audio Enhancement Rating 3
Flashlight x2
Medkit Rating 6
[/spoiler]
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That's more because the augmented character is built more poorly than the adept. It's easy enough to make a street samurai who's better than that at melee combat, you just need to use good things instead of bad things, like cyberspurs rather than bone lacing.
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In the interest of actually providing examples, check my sig.
The Ronin archetype is about as good in a fistfight as that adept, which is quite sad because the Ronin is a ranged-combat character who picked up Unarmed 4 and a shock glove as a tertiary thing.
The Bad Enough Trog is simply a much better melee combatant.
If you don't want to be super unsubtle (eg, by being robotroll) you can easily enough make an augmented character who's better at melee combat than that adept and not actually worse at anything else.
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You mean, a physad holding an ordinary weapon? Foci get their ratings reduced by background count, and a -6 essence cyberzombie would drop a force 6 weapon focus down to 0.
You mean a -6 Essence Cyberzombie would drop it by 4 points in a 6 meter radius. All CZ's have a BC of 4.
Thanks, Mason.
Yep, so the PhysAd still has a Rating 2 Weapon Focus, plus whatever powers they still have left, meaning they can still hurt the thing MUCH worse than any other weapon (Immunity to Normal Weapons) like grenades, missiles, rockets, bullets, etc. So, when fighting the Cyberzombie, which would you rather have, a PhysAd or a Thor shot? Because he's definitely walking away from the one that ain't magical.
Actually, Thors have a zone in the center, 200m IIRC, where it's "you are vaporized, no dodging, no resistance, no second chances". The DV 30 starts at the edge of that.
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The only time I had a campaign where the Adept was actually awesome is when I ran a game where the BP for gear was capped at 5 BP. They were street-level gangers working there way up from the lowest gutter. Adepts and gang Lieutenants with wire were the only ones in the district who had more than 2 IPs without drugs. Near the end of the campaign the Adept started to lag behind and finally ended up falling off a speeding train...
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After the initial reassurance that adepts are fine as long as one doesn't care about throwing absolute max dice, all I see is examples of why they suck harder than a joygirl...
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Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier.
Why did you waste points on making the augmented one a ranged combatant too, if the point was making 2 melee fighters and compare them to each other?
Get rid of that Bone Density augmentation, use resricted gear to up the ratings of both muscle implants to 4 and also pick up a supratyroid gland,.
Doing that up his strength to 14, maxes his agility to 7 with a natural agility of 2 so you can move 2 points from agi to rea resulting in a reaction of 8 and ups the body to 10.
Also get rid of the unarmed skill and up the blades skill to 6 instead, if you want to be able to still go into a fight when ever with out carrying around a big ass axe/sword, just get a cyber spur.
After the initial reassurance that adepts are fine as long as one doesn't care about throwing absolute max dice
WHUT
Adepts are the ones who get the max dice pools, not the other way around.
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After the initial reassurance that adepts are fine as long as one doesn't care about throwing absolute max dice
WHUT
Adepts are the ones who get the max dice pools, not the other way around.
But at what cost? Being completely useless at pretty much everything else?
If getting (near) max dice pools is your aim, get an augmented char, it'll still have points left to be good at something else.
If being surprisingly good is your aim though, adepts have their merits.
A security team trying to arrest cybertroll will show up with 10 heavily armed, trigger happy guards and air support. When they take him down, they'll lock him up in a cell without windows or bars and 5ft thick armored concrete walls.
The same security team wanting to arrest that unaugmented feeble-looking human might send in 3 guys with stun batons, and they won't last a second. If he doesn't resist and allows himself to be captured, they'll probably throw him in the same cell they use to lock up drunks overnight; and that feeble-looking unaugmented human can break down those bars as is they were made of... something not so strong.
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+1 Xyz. This is what some people don't get. Dice pools aren't everything. Yes, an uber-augmented character may throw more dice than an adept. But adepts don't set off MAD scanners, don't attract as much attention from cops, and their abilities are always on, and can't be hacked. Unless you're assensing them, you know the only way you can tell a physical adept from Joe Wageslave? When the physical adept goes Chuck Norris on you.
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+1 Xyz. This is what some people don't get. Dice pools aren't everything. Yes, an uber-augmented character may throw more dice than an adept. But adepts don't set off MAD scanners, don't attract as much attention from cops, and their abilities are always on, and can't be hacked. Unless you're assensing them, you know the only way you can tell a physical adept from Joe Wageslave? When the physical adept goes Chuck Norris on you.
Agreed.
A quick jaunt with Chummer let me whip up a pretty damn good infiltrator that has 4 IPs and slings 16 dice on Unarmed to deal 11P AP-Half Impact (thanks to Elemental Strike ;) ), throws 11 dice for Throwing Knives @ 8P AP-0, has Traceless Walk, the Stealth and Athletics groups at 4 each, and plenty of BP left for Martial Arts, more skills, and gear.
Not being a total munchkin is different than being pathetic.
P.S. Thanks to Quick Draw, he doesn't even have to spend an action readying those knives.
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^ Please, post build!
Just wanted to point out that sub-optimal all depends on what you find optimal.
Mathematically, my money's on cybertroll.
But personally, my combat builds usually are full of bioware -which is also numerically inferior to cyberware- or they're adepts (possibly but not necessarily with a point of bioware installed), but never chromed street sams.
Imo, even in 2072, a person with 4 armored chromed limbs will put security on alert. Not saying they'll be immediately arrested, but security will keep a closer eye on someone who looks like Robocop than on someone who looks like John Doe; and all that attention is often really unwelcome when on the job.
Unless playing high-aggression shadowrun jobs, bioware-augmentation or adepts are simply more 'optimal' when it comes to anything but fighting.
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^ Please, post build!
Here ya go; and there's 20 BP and 4,500¥ left to play around with on this... Might not actually be "plenty", but that's still enough to slap in some Martial Arts and armor. Can get 24 BP to play with if you save the Specializations for buying with Karma.
A bit low on Edge, perhaps, but I never tend to use it much, honestly.
Also, the character is built on the assumption that Hardliner Gloves are compatible with Adept Powers. If you want to go the other route, just subtract 1DV from the total damage for Unarmed, since Elemental Strike requires Killing Hands to begin with.
Also, since a dose of 15¥ Rating 6 Adhesive Solvent can act as a very nasty toxin*, and you can deliver a dose of an injection toxin via a bladed weapon, it's definitely worth picking up as well.
[spoiler]
Metatype: Ork (20BP)
ATTRIBUTES
(255BP)
BOD: 4 AGI: 5
REA: 5 ( 8 ) STR: 7
CHA: 2 INT: 3
LOG: 2 WIL: 3
EDG: 2 MAG: 6
QUALITIES
(+20BP, net)
Adept
The Warrior's Way
Any 35BP of Negative
SKILLS
(124 BP)
Athletics Group 4
Stealth Group 4
Thrown Weapons 4 (Spec. Throwing Knives)
Unarmed Combat 6 (Spec. Martial Arts)
ADEPT POWERS
(Powers marked with * are discounted by Warrior's Way)
(All under Geas, pick whatever kind you want)
*Critical Strike 6 (.75 PP)
Elemental Strike (Ice) (.38 PP)
*Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) 3 (.75 PP)
*Improved Reflexes 3 (2 PP)
Killing Hands (.38 PP)
Mystic Armor 1 (.38 PP)
Power Throw 3 (.56 PP)
Traceless Walk (.75 PP)
GEAR
Hardliner Gloves
Throwing Knife x20
[/spoiler]
*See Arsenal P81 "Ingested or Injected Compounds" sidebar. Exact stats are as follows:
Vector: Ingestion, Inhalation, Injection
Speed: Immediate
Penetration: -6
Power: 6
Effect: Physical Damage, Nausea
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Yeah, the best part of adepts is when you get to feel awesome because the GM threw a toned-down challenge at you.
Also, adept powers are not "always on." Background count. And if you're giving an example of a dude who has Gaesa on a bunch of his powers, that too. Also, while adepts don't set off MAD scanners, they have auras showing they are awakened. Magic 6 people are, in theory, quite rare so the cops will not send in 3 schmucks with stun batons if they know that they are trying to arrest a magic 6 adept.
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Yeah, the best part of adepts is when you get to feel awesome because the GM threw a toned-down challenge at you.
Also, adept powers are not "always on." Background count. And if you're giving an example of a dude who has Gaesa on a bunch of his powers, that too. Also, while adepts don't set off MAD scanners, they have auras showing they are awakened. Magic 6 people are, in theory, quite rare so the cops will not send in 3 schmucks with stun batons if they know that they are trying to arrest a magic 6 adept.
Umaro, buddy, if we're talking about munchkinizing builds, then using Gaesa on everything is fair game. "Never use a firearm" for all of them; boom, done.
Plus, give the guy a bit of Karma to get at least one level of Initiation and he can use Masking to damp down his aura to appear mundane unless the viewer beats him on an Assensing + Intuition vs Intuition + Magic + Initiate Grade opposed test.
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That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.
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That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.
Really? So "Never use a gun" isn't a CONDITION to using his Adept powers? Or did you mean that the entry for CONDITION GEAS on page 27 of Street Magic doesn't actually exist and I'm hallucinating?
"You must specify a personal condition to do magic. For example, you must be astrally perceiving, unwounded, sitting in the lotus position, drunk, and so on. When you're not in this condition the geas is broken."
The condition is "No Guns". If I have a gun, then I am not in a condition of "No Guns", so the geas is broken. It's viable.
As for the rest of your argument, please see my edited post above you: Metamagic will easily let you dampen your Aura once you get a little Karma under your belt.
Not to mention the fact that magical searches are far less common than physical ones.
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After the initial reassurance that adepts are fine as long as one doesn't care about throwing absolute max dice, all I see is examples of why they suck harder than a joygirl...
I should probably answer this.
What adepts actually need is for someone to go through all of the adept powers and reprice them, remove most of the maximum amount you can take limits, take out the fuckyou clauses, and make a bunch of them scale based on total magic.
Your best bet for actually fixing things in the short-term is probably going to be something like:
Allow Ways
Allow Martial Arts (this helps make melee in general viable)
Allow Adept Gaesa - but with some restrictions. Allow only 1 Gaesa per 2 Magic, and allow only Gaesa of the "actually limiting" variety (like the ones in the book, eg, "Only works during daytime", no "only works if I'm a vegetarian" or stupid shit), and then also allow "Don't have any augmentations" as a Gaesa.
It's a hack, but will probably work.
Alternatively, adepts are fine if you figure out what you want the adept to do (eg, "fight,") and then make sure that the adept is the only one trying to do that.
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That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.
Really? So "Never use a gun" isn't a CONDITION to using his Adept powers? Or did you mean that the entry for CONDITION GEAS on page 27 of Street Magic doesn't actually exist and I'm hallucinating?
As for the rest of your argument, please see my edited post above you: Metamagic will easily let you dampen your Aura once you get a little Karma under your belt.
Not to mention the fact that magical searches are far less common than physical ones.
Yeah, you didn't read it correctly. Condition gaesa are a condition on when you CAN DO your magic. "Never use a firearm" is not a condition on when you can use a magic. I guess you could argue "Not currently holding a firearm" as a condition but that's bullshit and we both know it. Take a look at the actual examples - such as requiring that you be drunk while casting spells, only being able to cast spells while astrally perceiving - and it's pretty clear.
Background count?
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So, here's an interesting point. The one thing that adept is good at - and in fairness, he is actually good at it, assuming you do allow a "Only while recieving free PP" geas - is being able to walk around looking unarmed and then win close quarters fights. I think you can build a magician who can do the exact same thing better pretty easily, if that really is your heart's desire.
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That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.
Really? So "Never use a gun" isn't a CONDITION to using his Adept powers? Or did you mean that the entry for CONDITION GEAS on page 27 of Street Magic doesn't actually exist and I'm hallucinating?
As for the rest of your argument, please see my edited post above you: Metamagic will easily let you dampen your Aura once you get a little Karma under your belt.
Not to mention the fact that magical searches are far less common than physical ones.
Yeah, you didn't read it correctly. Condition gaesa are a condition on when you CAN DO your magic. "Never use a firearm" is not a condition on when you can use a magic. I guess you could argue "Not currently holding a firearm" as a condition but that's bullshit and we both know it. Take a look at the actual examples - such as requiring that you be drunk while casting spells, only being able to cast spells while astrally perceiving - and it's pretty clear.
Background count?
Yeah, but it IS technically correct, and even though it's a rules-lawyer-y loophole. You freely admit that the powers need to be cheaper... I just made it happen without crippling the character or having to House Rule something. It's just like taking Negative Qualities that will have a minimal impact on your character... like Sensitive System if you never plan on getting implants.
As for Background Count, yeah, that's an issue unless there's someone in the group that can pull Cleansing meta-magic. Of course, which is more likely to happen, a severe Background Count or someone getting their 'Ware hacked, EMPed, shut down by Electrical Damage, or otherwise screwed with?
Answer: Whichever one your GM decides. BG Count is only going to be a severe issue if your GM decides he wants to punish you for playing an Adept and give the Street Sams a free pass.
So, here's an interesting point. The one thing that adept is good at - and in fairness, he is actually good at it, assuming you do allow a "Only while recieving free PP" geas - is being able to walk around looking unarmed and then win close quarters fights. I think you can build a magician who can do the exact same thing better pretty easily, if that really is your heart's desire.
Hey, I never said Magicians weren't better than Adepts. The discussion, here, is between Street Sams and Adepts. I could even build a Gun Adept with WAY fewer Power Points, not to mention the option of swapping out the Thrown Weapon powers for Archery, which would also save me a ton of PP. This build was just to screw around and create an Icy Ork Ninja Of Frosty Doom.
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You can also go down the bioware route. Fairly unobvious, won't set off scanners, doesn't fear background counts and if I remember rightly they'll only ever know if they do a blood test on the guy.
And certainly, if we say that with a bit of xp an Adept can get masking metamagic to conceal his biggest giveaway, then the Street Sam is not far behind/already there in terms earning enought to upgrade cyber to bio to remove their biggest giveaway.
edit: However, yes, Adepts do have an advantage there. And given SR's nature, its not inconsiderable. I don't think it compensates for the advantage in broad flexibility for less (while usually being able to do the same things better or as well) that the Augmentated has though.
I also think the biggest problem here really is just how far ahead the Augmented Adept is. I mean, I look at JustADude's infiltrator build and think I could match it with an augment, but am feeling too lazy to do the maths. However, I know that dropping one rank of stealth and using it to buy restricted gear and muscle toner 4 will immediately make it a better character in terms of raw efficiency. Lose traceless walk and one rank of unarmed combat. It shouldn't be that easy and... ok its not, I'd avoid his third choice from Way of the Warrior, so I'd have to lose a bit more, but the point remains.
JustADude: All of the condition clauses are clear examples of something that seriously comes with a downside to be doing while using your Adept powers. Not holding a gun doesn't. Since its an option dependent on GM discretion, I would say that any GM worth his salt would refuse that gaesa and ask for one that matched the others in terms of inconvenience. I don't think using it as an example of what the Adept can do under the rules, because a rules-first GM would probably go no. A nicer GM who wants to be nice to Adepts might go 'yes' but there I would say we're onto GMs modifying the rules. Which is admittedly just as technically finicky as what you're saying.
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Public perception and opinions on ware is a whole other issue since that varies wildly on your opinion of the SR world due to no cohensive worldview. Strength enhancing ware is common enough that dock workers no longer use powered lifts, but everyone may freak out over a cyberlimb.
However, I did think people are underestimating security response. Yeah it might be one guy or three at first when it's just them checking them out something. That's going to be case regardless. But if you take them out* or show yourself to be a threat, you're getting a full response regardless of who you are. They aren't going to respond with CR appropriate encounters, they're going to respond with what they got. If it's three men with stun batons is what they got on hand, then it's three men with stun batons, adept or cybertroll. If they have an elite group of badasses on site, it's them. They may call for external help, but unless you're using astral gank squads**, they're going to take a while to arrive.
A lot of anti-ware options are very all or nothing. It's not "being a cybertroll might have trouble in certain parts" it's "dudes with wired reflexes or guns can't go on this adventure because the alarm sounds right off the bat." Either everything's pink mohawk because you can't hide anything at all or a mundane PC is useless. You haven't made adepts better. You've just made mundanes NPCs who will still beat up adepts.
*- If you're playing this sort of game, your guards should have biomonitors and have already called in. Now you can hack around this, but that helps adepts as much as it does cybertrolls.
**- Not that I suggest using them. A group of 3-4 astral mages shooting out a steady stream of force 6 (or higher!) spirits tends to be a TPK or fun only for the mage.
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All of the condition clauses are clear examples of something that seriously comes with a downside to be doing while using your Adept powers. Not holding a gun doesn't. Since its an option dependent on GM discretion, I would say that any GM worth his salt would refuse that gaesa and ask for one that matched the others in terms of inconvenience. I don't think using it as an example of what the Adept can do under the rules, because a rules-first GM would probably go no. A nicer GM who wants to be nice to Adepts might go 'yes' but there I would say we're onto GMs modifying the rules. Which is admittedly just as technically finicky as what you're saying.
Could also make the limit a Talisman Geas, centered around specifically designed Hardliner Gloves, really, since a Talisman just has to be something that has 3 distinct characteristics and is openly displayed.
Example: Black leather, white swatches across the knuckles and palm, and decorated with chrome-colored mystic symbols on the back.
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^ In that case though, you can be disarmed and imo, I'd almost say it's the GM's obligation to make sure that happens to you every now and then too. If not, just give free PP's and be done with it.
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What that man said. Although given the obvious weakness then yes, I would be cool with it... and would steal them at some point.
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What that man said. Although given the obvious weakness then yes, I would be cool with it... and would steal them at some point.
And I'd be cool with THAT, out of character at least. ;)
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That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.
Really? So "Never use a gun" isn't a CONDITION to using his Adept powers? Or did you mean that the entry for CONDITION GEAS on page 27 of Street Magic doesn't actually exist and I'm hallucinating?
"You must specify a personal condition to do magic. For example, you must be astrally perceiving, unwounded, sitting in the lotus position, drunk, and so on. When you're not in this condition the geas is broken."
The condition is "No Guns". If I have a gun, then I am not in a condition of "No Guns", so the geas is broken. It's viable.
As for the rest of your argument, please see my edited post above you: Metamagic will easily let you dampen your Aura once you get a little Karma under your belt.
Not to mention the fact that magical searches are far less common than physical ones.
Careful with this one, there are GMs out there who'll have an NPC use Palming to plant a gun on you to force you to unknowingly break the geas, losing the powers that are attached to it just to f*** you over.
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Alright, I feel like I should take a step back here. Mostly, the "adepts are fine because the GM can pitch you softballs" and "but adepts have HEART" arguments were pissing me off.
First, I should note that (assuming the GM allows nonlimiting Gaesa, which is a topic I'll return to), that is a good adept build and will hold up against a street samurai.
The real questions IMO are:
Do pure adepts hold up against street samurai?
Do pure adepts hold up against augmented adepts?
Do augmented adepts hold up against street samurai?
Now let me try to answer those.
If you don't allow nonlimiting Gaesa or Ways, pure adepts basically just blow chunks, but augmented adepts are about on par with street samurai. The obvious fix is to allow Ways and Gaesa...but the problem there is that this does not solve the problem that augmented adepts are better than adepts. That build, while good, would still be better as an augmented adept. If you allow Ways and nonlimiting Gaesa, you end up generally with augmented adepts being better than adepts who are now on par with street samurai (at pure combat - the adept will be more specialized, still).
I don't think it's a problem that the Bestest at Kung Fu is an adept. That's fine, because said adept is also paying a good chunk of points to be the bestest at kung fu, and the street samurai can still be good at kung fu and also good at another thing or two. I do think it's a problem, though, that you can't make an adept who wouldn't be better off augmenting themselves.
That's why my recommended solution is to limit Gaesa to actually for real limiting things and not bullshit, and to "not being Augmented." That leaves augmented adept as the way to go if you want to be a hyperspecialist at one thing, adept as a bit less of a hyperspecialist (since you can afford more powers, but you can't stack adept powers and ware), and samurai if you want more flexibility/defense. All of them have strengths and weaknesses in this setup and I think that's a good place to shoot for.
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It seems to me that the flavor of the Adept is supposed to be the guy who trains hard and focuses his magic internally into being as good as he can be at what he does. This "sub-optimal" stuff probably stems from that the people saying it want the Adept to be able to do what he's chosen to become good at as well as a laundry list of other things. To be perfectly honest in my opinion, putting implants--whether cyber or bio in nature--is seriously hampering the Adept and making him truly suck because not only do you lose a point of Magic and hence power points from the maximum, but you also lose a point from your current Magic attribute. There was a time when I considered the idea of using initiation to build a buffer for implants, but I realized just how much of a waste of karma that would be.
I guess what I'm saying is, instead of looking at the Adept as sucking because he "has to specialize", look at him as being that eternal seeker of perfection of body/mind/spirit--whichever a particular one might be going for--that he is. He may not be able to do everything that street samurai can do, but he's likely managed being better at something than that street samurai.
Side note: How in the bloody hell were people getting 50+ plus dice on Face Adepts??!! (If this isn't a sign of Adepts being just fine--if not a bit over the top--I don't know what is.) Kinda want to see the build for this because I don't really see dice pools that high being feasible.
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Side note: How in the bloody hell were people getting 50+ plus dice on Face Adepts??!! (If this isn't a sign of Adepts being just fine--if not a bit over the top--I don't know what is.) Kinda want to see the build for this because I don't really see dice pools that high being feasible.
It's been a while, but a rough breakdown is this: Charisma 8 Elf + Metagentic Improvement 1 + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) 1 + Social Skill 7 + Improved Ability 3 + Emotoy 6 + Kinesics 3 + Pheromone Receptors 2 + Specialization 2 + Tailored Pheromones 3 + Glamour 3 + First Impression 2. That's a total of 41 dice. I'm sure there's more widgets and bonuses I'm missing, but that's the basics.
Overall, you're getting 6 dice from being an adept (Improved Ability + Kinesics) and 6 dice from ware (Genetic Optimization + Pheromone Receptors + Tailored Pheromones) so it's 50-50. If you can get a force 10 Increase Charisma spell cast on you, you can get up to 5 more dice from that.
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All4BigGuns, it doesn't stem from wanting them to be all-round badasses. It stems from comparing a number of builds and finding out that the Augmented character did what the Adept specialised in better, and had added flexibility to boot. And then comparing the Augmented Adept and finding he'd do it even better, it slightly less flexibly. It might appear from reading the books that putting implants in an Adept hampers them. I can assure you that if you do the maths and compare like builds you will find it does no such thing. On the contrary, it makes for the most powerful builds, as you get to stack the bonuses of both. You probably won't be very versatile, but you will be rocking every bonus possible. The 50 dice (I think it was only 49 actually) Adept is an example of this, as they will be using bioware.
If, as Umaro says, adepts were specialists and Street Sams were generalists, everyone would be happy. But they're not.
I'm still tinkering with numbers for an augmented build to compare with JustADude's quick ninja and I think, in fairness, that will come ahead of it sort of and that's fair and how it should be... although what he's done with gaesa is mildly abusive (which given that its an optional rule may not fly at a lot of tables)... even then, the Augment will hit more often (in unarmed barely and at throwing by lots) and be more stealthy (quite considerably), be a better athlete, a bit sturdier... its the 'doing insane amounts of damage with bare hands/knives' that you can't really replicate with an augment. So, he'd do better in the specialisation of 'hurt people', worse in the generalities - and that works for me. But this is using two sets of optional rules, one in a manner most GMs would balk at, and using one of the few things Adepts do have genuine options on (i.e. unarmed combat). Plus this is without cyberware, for that truly stealthy feeling (cyberware would probably level things up on damage).
So... we have one case where it works (just about), but I've seen plenty where it doesn't.
Oh. JustADude's version will have an extra initative pass. Which is a fair advantage. I have to say, sticking gaesa and a Way onto Increased Reflexes makes it a serious plus for the Adept vs the Augment.
Oh, and Tsuzua - You're missing out that its a Dryad using glamour at least. I forget the rest. Might go look it up... seem to recall Home Turf is used as well.
edit: The Adept can add on dice from a mentor spirit and therefore this is another field where, as is right, the specialised adept will beat out the augment.
edit edit: Found it, halfway down this page... http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4610.30 - I can't find the minor biosculpting bit in the rulebooks, but if its right, we're back to augment beating adept. For a lot less. If it isn't, you get one more dice for the Adept, and I'm fairly sure it will cost more.
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Adepts can initiate and thus have a better late game potential, there is only so far you can take a cybered character. An elf cybered character can get 7 ranks in a skill 12 agility and +1 for recorded reflexes.
an adept (with a little bioware granted) can get 12 agility 7 in a skill +3 for improved ability not to mention centering.
So technically they have a higher cap.
Then consider a social adept, much better than any standard face.
A melee adept with 10 ranks in critical strike, and so forth.
Adepts are weaker starting out, but if you have a game with decent karma progression, say a 50 week campaign with 5-10 karma a session... well your adept will be better in his chosen field. Once again though its at the cost of a not spending that karma on other things. Adepts are specialised and they will become the best at that speciality if you invest.
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Guess what, kiddies?
We've reached the circular logic stage of this thread!
Two sides are arguing points and neither side is giving ground. Mostly because it all depends on HOW YOU WANT TO PLAY THE GAME™. Which changes from person to person. Now, I'm going to leave this thread open to continue the discussion, but if we're doing nothing but discussing opinion on why individuals like or don't like adepts (regardless of whether or not you can back it up with rules), then I'm thinking that not much else can be gained from this thread and I'll lock it down and shelve it.
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Side note: How in the bloody hell were people getting 50+ plus dice on Face Adepts??!! (If this isn't a sign of Adepts being just fine--if not a bit over the top--I don't know what is.) Kinda want to see the build for this because I don't really see dice pools that high being feasible.
Here you go
[spoiler]Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)
3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51[/spoiler]
But do note that only 6 of those dice come from being an adept.
Edit: Also your correct about it not being feasible, in the sense that you won't ever need that many dice, so your better of spending points for other thinks.
But knowing the full build, makes it easier to make decicions on what to get and what not to get 8)
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That's why my recommended solution is to limit Gaesa to actually for real limiting things and not bullshit, and to "not being Augmented."
Not to keep the circle going, or anything, but I would just like to know how the emphasized part of the quote ISN'T a "non-limiting Geas" for someone who never intended to take cyberware to begin with?
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Not to keep the circle going, or anything, but I would just like to know how the emphasized part of the quote ISN'T a "non-limiting Geas" for someone who never intended to take cyberware to begin with?
It is, but as not getting ware automatically makes you weaker then you could be, it's an exception he would allow.
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Not to keep the circle going, or anything, but I would just like to know how the emphasized part of the quote ISN'T a "non-limiting Geas" for someone who never intended to take cyberware to begin with?
It is, but as not getting ware automatically makes you weaker then you could be, it's an exception he would allow.
Ah, so my bullshit was just the wrong flavor of bullshit, then? ;)
And yes, that disgusting mental image was intended as a form of humor.
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Yes, those are meant to be exclusive. You can either have an actual limiting gaesa, or, as the one exception to that rule, the special "unaugmented" gaesa.
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Pure adepts are not optimal, although with Ways, geasa, and the optional rule that lets you buy power points at initiation, they can be pretty decent. Even without the above, they are still suited for the specialized roles they were intended for. But when you try to emulate a street samurai with one, you will wind up with a character that is overall weaker than an augmented character would be.
Adepts are different than street samurai. Some abilities are very inexpensive for them (powers such as critical strike or enhanced perception), while others are very expensive for them (initiative or Attribute increases). This is one of the things that makes augmented adepts so appealing. You can get some bioware for the things that are expensive to increase with your adept powers, and then buy the cheap, good stuff with your adept powers.
The other main thing that makes augmentations appealing for an adept is that even for the good powers, augmentations stack with them. You can get kinesics and improved ability for your social skills, then add tailored pheromones and empathy software to that. You can get bone density: 4 and then add critical strike to it.
So when you combine those two things, you can see why, even though adepts are not bad by any means, you can almost always do better by augmenting them. Is this bad? I guess it depends on the intent. If the game designers just wanted to differentiate adepts from street samurai, then this is an unintended consequence. If they wanted even adepts to feel tempted by the cheap, easy boost of augmentation, then they succeeded.
It can be frustrating to some people, because they prefer "pure" adepts, and those are not as powerful. It is like playing an Oni - you are sacrificing some optimization for the character concept. And while I by no means advocate the Stormwind fallacy, I don't think every character has to be completely optimized every time.
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And while I by no means advocate the Stormwind fallacy, I don't think every character has to be completely optimized every time.
What is this Stormwind Fallacy you speak of?
EDIT: Nevermind, I forgot about Google for a minute there... very interesting point, however one feels compelled to point out that a Fallacy is something that is incorrect and fails to hold up to logic, which is rather the opposite of what Stormwind intended.
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And while I by no means advocate the Stormwind fallacy, I don't think every character has to be completely optimized every time.
What is this Stormwind Fallacy you speak of?
EDIT: Nevermind, I forgot about Google for a minute there... very interesting point, however one feels compelled to point out that a Fallacy is something that is incorrect and fails to hold up to logic, which is rather the opposite of what Stormwind intended.
'Fallacy' is the correct term. The 'something that is incorrect and fails to hold up to logic' is the argument that optimization and roleplaying are mutually exclusive.
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'Fallacy' is the correct term. The 'something that is incorrect and fails to hold up to logic' is the argument that optimization and roleplaying are mutually exclusive.
Ah, my bad. I'm used to Fallacies, Paradoxes, etc being named for the person/thing that inspired them, not a counter-example.
You know, like the Monty Hall Paradox, or the Ad Populum or Straw Man Fallacies.