[JoeNapalm]

If you aimed for an unarmored part however like say the face if they didn't have a full helmet would it still add to their armor? (you take a negative to aiming for specific body part of course)

Eh there's always a way to have a character come back even in Dungeons and Dragons. I mean i "kill them" as in making them go down, however killing them off is much harder. XD meaning no body to resurrect. (they have to pay their level X 1,000 in order to resurrect a dead companion and then -1 con!) So most of them keep coming back even if they go down too far.

If you take a Called Shot (SR4A, p. 161) and succeed, you can ignore all armor, and as I understand it that means flachette will no longer add 5. So flachette and called shots go together like bread and butter.

Vs a heavily armored opponent, that is going to be quite a trick, though. Take my Merc's armor of 21/17 - you would have a -21 penalty to your dice pool before I even rolled to defend, instead of the 8 hits my Armor would normally average vs the Slivergun.

Even if you manage to hit me, you are going to net a 1 hit bonus for your trouble, over the average roll (21 dice average 7 hits) and that is only because of the +5 AP to begin with! (Though it would do Physical damage, so that is something.

[Charybdis]

If you aimed for an unarmored part however like say the face if they didn't have a full helmet would it still add to their armor? (you take a negative to aiming for specific body part of course)

Eh there's always a way to have a character come back even in Dungeons and Dragons. I mean i "kill them" as in making them go down, however killing them off is much harder. XD meaning no body to resurrect. (they have to pay their level X 1,000 in order to resurrect a dead companion and then -1 con!) So most of them keep coming back even if they go down too far.

If you take a Called Shot (SR4A, p. 161) and succeed, you can ignore all armor, and as I understand it that means flachette will no longer add 5. So flachette and called shots go together like bread and butter.

Called shots in SR4 don't ignore armour AFAIK. They just add up to +4 DV (which is the equivalent of losing 12 points of armour, but still not quite the same thing

[StarManta]

Called shots in SR4 don't ignore armour AFAIK. They just add up to +4 DV (which is the equivalent of losing 12 points of armour, but still not quite the same thing

SR4A, p.161, the very first example of the uses of Called Shots:

Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character re- ceives a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.

[Charybdis]

SR4A, p.161, the very first example of the uses of Called Shots:

Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character re- ceives a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.

*tips hat*  you are correct.

But as a side note, mathematically it's a useless option.

Example A) Target has 12 armour. Take a -12 to the called shot attack roll (equal to armour, just like it says in the rulebook), and if you hit, they get to resist with body.

Example B) Target has 12 armour. Take a -4 to the called shot attack roll, and increase DV by +4. On average, it takes 12 points of armour to soak 4DV, but you also have +8 dice to the attack roll for more successes on your shot, which is going to make any remaining body soak tests much more challenging.

I'll take option B) every time, however RAW, I am corrected on what called shots can/can't do. +1 to you

[The Big Peat]

On the subject of the Troll (and speaking as a very raw GM with 4 sessions total, 2 of Shadowrun under my belt, so same boat as you) - the Mage is good, the 'Is that armour legal' is good...

So too is the option called 'More Bullets'. In Shadowrun, people are frail and bullets are fairly cheap. Yes, the Troll is about as un-frail as it gets, and can ignore the poxy gangers with their poxy light pistols who his friends are worried about. But when the highly skilled CorpSec/Lone Star/Street Sam/Adept/whatever levels their machine gun at them and lets fly with a full narrow burst of Armour Piercing/Explosive ammo, the Troll has serious problems. He will probably survive that, which most of his friends won't if they get hit. He might even survive a second burst, although that's beginning to be a risky bet. A third would almost definitley do for him. A big enough gun - and it doesn't even have to be that big - will hurt him. No matter how tough a Shadowrunner is, the moment heavy fire comes down their best options are 'Get them before they can get you' and 'Run away'. Probably not in that order. The tank's favourite option 'tough it out', is a long way down the list.

[beowulf_of_wa]

Its called Flechette (Fletch was a Chevy Chase Char back in the 90's right ?)

80's

for the troll, if he's carrying anything larger than a hold out pistol when the cops see him (in assumably obvious armor) they won't be afraid to call out the SWAT troll with a panther backed up by a riot truck with whatever toy you deem necessary. i'd use a riot truck with water cannon loaded with sleep agent, but thats me being nice. very few players spend the money on envirosealing, and even if they do, minor damage breaks the seal. a high pressure stream of water hitting the troll will knock him down, and the sleep agent makes him not wanna get back up til he's safely in the Seattle Metro Jail. did i mention that apparently your license for the armor got washed down the sewer drain?

[JoeNapalm]

Love the water cannon.

This is why my Tank has a Chemical Seal and, on a separate layer, Chem Resistance.

That, and the rain in Seattle is pretty nasty. And common.

(Though, really, it's also why my Tank's armor looks like clothing and his AR has a Concealment rating of -10)

But kudos for the water cannon - A good GM, much like a skilled martial artist, should be able to deal with the situation without causing irreparable harm.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Zilfer]

You have a point about Called shot being a little less likely to really do anything against heavily armored opponent. -21 dice would definitely be a hinderance considering with my character that uses the slivergun only has a 20 dice pool. (7 pistols +2 heavy pistol specialization, +9 agility*with augmentations* +2 for the smart gun) I’d have a -1 dice pool without using edge. XD then I’d only have 6 dice compared to probably a higher agility so hitting would be hard. I guess if I had time to do AIM actions for a few combat turns it might help but that’s laughable.

Point taken about the gun, though if it does hit it will inflict a pretty nice -2 wound modifier to whatever it hit. I’m curious does this matter if they have a helmet? To mean I don’t care if the armor is Aluminum, Iron, or Adamantium. If they aren’t wearing a helmet why should it be any harder to shoot someone’s head? Opinions on this? If the dice pool is a 6 dice difference that could mean the difference between life and death of an enemy.

Let’s see what other questions I have.

Critters, how do you guys employ these guys into the games? It seems more DnD like when I took a look at that section. Kinda like a mini monster manual there, but I was wondering are these kind of “Murders going around in the city and someone lost someone important to enter said beast and they got to go find it?” Or are they used as “hound dogs” in security places? Should they mostly be encountered in the wild because a lot of them are wild animals it seems. >.> Also Essence drain, that permanent? No way to get it back if so that is a scary critter.

Out of pure curiousity, has anyone ever done a shadowrun to Mars? If so how did that one go and what was the storyline? (the moon can count as well) I was just reading one of the triple AAA’s company descriptions in the main book and it said they set up a station on Mars. Though that was an interesting adventure idea, imagine what secrets and data they could be storing so far away from the earth and non of the other companies know. be they want to know. XD

Is astral combat as hard to understand as fighting firewalls while hacking? Or simplier? I’ve kinda moseyed my way around Astral combat and Technomancers for awhile. (I want to add that capability into my game however since they seem worthwhile pursuits like most in the game.)

I’m not sure my group has really gotten into the “planning” part of Shadowrun yet. Sometimes it’s run and gun, other times it’s just handling normal day to day stuff.


While I’m on the subject I could use a little brainstorming help. Sort of doing a zombie break out right now. They were flying a package they weren’t supposed to open. Me knowing one of the members has the negative quality of addiction, but not just any addiction a Pyromaniac. <.< and they all opt to fly on a small plane that could fit about 6-10 people in it? Well Mr. Pyro has that negative quality that gets a -2 composure to resist and he needs to 2 hits out of 3 dice with a -2. Needless to say once per day he has to use Edge if he wants to resist doing it. So he decided not to resist it and save edge. (probably a good thing, at least from my perspective as a dm. *evil grin*) Anyways he had grenades on him so he threw it out the toilet on the airplane. First day fine nothing happened but second day he damaged the plane enough to make it crash with the cargo they were to escort to the middle of where Wyoming used to be. (SIOUX now, gonna have to find out a bit about this place) Anyways made up a city called Joyhaven where they crash landed. (wasn’t pretty one guy crit glitched and flew out of the crashing plane, needless to say he had two turns before he bled out. The only thing that saved him was the troll who activated his adrenaline enhancers.) I had them all take around 20S damage so most of them would be knocked out and not die. The troll however was up, for as long as that pump was going. He made a perception check a pretty good one, and then amazed me with a sprint that I’d probably not want to see a troll do in real life. At least not in my direction. (A troll sprinting does like what 30 meters? +2 meters for every hit? He got like 10 hits. 50 meters in two seconds? Give that guy a medal if he can keep that pace for another turn cus I think he’d break the world record. XD) Anyways he slapped on a trauma patch and did a healing test to stabilize. Managed to get it, the troll then willfully knocked himself out by turning off the cyberware. (otherwise he would have just died)

They were pretty awestruck when I ended the session there leaving it hanging if they were going to survive or not. ^.^ That was before I mentioned that they were delievering that metal box with them. I said “Well I wonder what happened to that box…” More struck faces.

Heh, anyways they wake up in the hospital. The troll is the first one to heal up fully. (surprise surprise), slowly day by day each more get up. The troll’s walkin around the room by now seen the nurse a few time who I’ve dropped a hint seemed really busy. As the days go on they aren’t checked up on as much. The third person got up and turned on the news. Told them their plane crash was on the news, as well as an increase in “accidents.” I’m trying to move at a slow pace throughout the days making sure to ask each day well what are you doing? Most of them opted to rest, to gather their strength. So on the fifth day. They decide to try and ask were the doctor was who was supposed to come check on him but had been ‘busy’. No one answers the door, well they take a look down the hallways to see anyone. (the door to the room they are in is locked FYI) they don’t see anyone down the hallways. (prior to this day they had noticed a fifth bed in their room which they neglected to really check on, which was the pilot) He flat lined, and the hacker decided well I’m going to try to hack the security cams. (I then had the person at the door make a perception, and see an armored man coming down the hallway checking his corners the whole way coming towards their door). The hacker was flipping through cameras after the hacking into just the camera system. He got a whole bunch of empty rooms and was flicking through it as the armored guy slide the keycard. The troll slammed him against the wall since the guys gun was drawn. (>.> wasn’t that hard to do either) Well that’s about the time I have the Hacker see something on a camera. Two figures seemingly eating something off a stretcher in another room. Heh, what could they be eating. The guy against the wall with the gun was wheezing and pointed his hand at the last bed which the guy that flatlined just stood up. Needless to say the troll dropped the guy and allowed him to shoot. They then proceeded to ask what the hell was going on. Needless to say they rushed to the hospital’s mini armory two stories above them while only have 1 gun from the guy with them. They ran up the stairs (one of them literally crit glitched running, the guy that flew out of the plane. Damn hacker just WANTS to get killed and he doesn’t even have bad luck! xD The quality that is, apparently he had bad luck in real life.)

They got two the armory saw that it had already been mostly raided. So 3 suits of armor (4 of them) 1 helmet, 4 light pistols with a single clip, and one assault rifle single clip. I think they’ll appreciate conserving ammo. XD oh and I threw in two random frags just in case Mr. Pyromaniac got any ideas. I ended this session as they are in an elevator on the outside of the building able to see most of the city in chaos. (I might mention that the hacker checked his email and found the guy who had sent them on the mission had literally spammed and filled his mailbox to it’s full capacity. Message said “Get out”. He read that back in the room before he got the idea to hack the cameras)

I think they had quite fun, though I think they are more focused on survival right now then getting any money or anything. The troll wants his baby back… he’s got like a assault cannon type deal with an AI on it called Bertha. <.<

So you guys got any ideas for a campaign like that?

I told them that it would be kick ass to have a Zombie infestation in a shadowrun game because it’s a game where you could really make it work. (only game I’ve ever played with guns in it, and that ain’t saying much since I haven’t played many RPG ones) They agree’d so I pulled this one on them about a week or two later.

Ok sorry for going off topic. XD


Water Cannon, that sounds like an interesting Idea I may have to try eventually. thanks for the idea!

Also I keep hearing you guys talking about armor that looks like clothing? Are we talking about the armored jacket type things? or is there an actual upgrade that puts a hologram over your armor to make it look like clothing or something?

[beowulf_of_wa]

armored jacket done by fashion designers, SR3 had whole sections devoted to it, and some of those items are in SR4 main, like the london great coat.

[Medicineman]

If they aren’t wearing a helmet why should it be any harder to shoot someone’s head? Opinions on this?
A) Because Shadowrun has no hit location (Never had one)
So If You hit somebody , he rolls his body & armor  no matter where You hit him
B) You need houserules for headshots If you don't use the: -4 Dice for +4 Damage Rule
C) You need other Hosuerules for other Hit Locations
D) You need to recalculate Armor
(Why does a Armor Coat (6/4) that covers more of the Body have less Armor than a Armored Jacket (8/6)
What If I Pull up the Collar of said Coat how Much more Protection is that ? How Much Armor is the Armored Coat at the Arms ? Why ?)
E) If Headshots were so Effective  (with -6 for a called shot to a small area if there is no armor protection )
Everybody will Do it and sooner Or later You have a TPK Which is no Fun at all

You Play D&D (Me too  don't worry it doesn't cause Cancer) what about Headshots there ?

Critters, how do you guys employ these guys into the games?
Rarely !By Canon they're way too expensive for Cons to employ (a well Trained Hellhound costs 200.000 ¥ Plus upkeep)

Out of pure curiousity, has anyone ever done a shadowrun to Mars?
Nope ! And I doubt that I ever will
Orbital Stations, the Space Elevator maybe, but a voyage to Mars.... I doubt that strongly

He who dances with John Carter from Mars
Medicineman

[Zilfer]

If they aren’t wearing a helmet why should it be any harder to shoot someone’s head? Opinions on this?
A) Because Shadowrun has no hit location (Never had one)
So If You hit somebody , he rolls his body & armor  no matter where You hit him
B) You need houserules for headshots If you don't use the: -4 Dice for +4 Damage Rule
C) You need other Hosuerules for other Hit Locations
D) You need to recalculate Armor
(Why does a Armor Coat (6/4) that covers more of the Body have less Armor than a Armored Jacket (8/6)
What If I Pull up the Collar of said Coat how Much more Protection is that ? How Much Armor is the Armored Coat at the Arms ? Why ?)
E) If Headshots were so Effective  (with -6 for a called shot to a small area if there is no armor protection )
Everybody will Do it and sooner Or later You have a TPK Which is no Fun at all

You Play D&D (Me too  don't worry it doesn't cause Cancer) what about Headshots there ?

Critters, how do you guys employ these guys into the games?
Rarely !By Canon they're way too expensive for Cons to employ (a well Trained Hellhound costs 200.000 ¥ Plus upkeep)

Out of pure curiousity, has anyone ever done a shadowrun to Mars?
Nope ! And I doubt that I ever will
Orbital Stations, the Space Elevator maybe, but a voyage to Mars.... I doubt that strongly

He who dances with John Carter from Mars
Medicineman

Alright good point. If you tried to head shot in DnD depends on what your trying to do it with. Is it a sword? then i'd "DM on the fly" as it were. (lol) Using a crossbow that would suck to get hit in the head. XD

[beowulf_of_wa]

Space: the final frontier. where no one can hear you scream, the mage is twitching from no astral connection, the hacker is giggling from all the Wifi in the air, and the razorboy is crying cuz all they let him bring were the ares squirt and a normal knife.

the perfect location to run my players through a one-shot based on the movie pandorum. "orbital facility" (i swear it's really not a colony ship) experimenting on surge changelings, no magic seems to work, and no monster stomping weapons. and, GO!

[baronspam]

On the subject of the Troll (and speaking as a very raw GM with 4 sessions total, 2 of Shadowrun under my belt, so same boat as you) - the Mage is good, the 'Is that armour legal' is good...

So too is the option called 'More Bullets'. In Shadowrun, people are frail and bullets are fairly cheap. Yes, the Troll is about as un-frail as it gets, and can ignore the poxy gangers with their poxy light pistols who his friends are worried about. But when the highly skilled CorpSec/Lone Star/Street Sam/Adept/whatever levels their machine gun at them and lets fly with a full narrow burst of Armour Piercing/Explosive ammo, the Troll has serious problems. He will probably survive that, which most of his friends won't if they get hit. He might even survive a second burst, although that's beginning to be a risky bet. A third would almost definitley do for him. A big enough gun - and it doesn't even have to be that big - will hurt him. No matter how tough a Shadowrunner is, the moment heavy fire comes down their best options are 'Get them before they can get you' and 'Run away'. Probably not in that order. The tank's favourite option 'tough it out', is a long way down the list.

The above is all good advice on how to handle "the tank.".  Full blown combat armor (and especially the shield) are only going to work in full combat situations where you don't care what anyone thinks of you.  Some jobs require subtly, legwork, and blending in, and the troll will have to downshift to less crazy armor.  A showdowrunner should be able to dress for success in any situation, be it a fancy club, a corporate board room, a bar at the edge of the barrens, or a den full of ghouls.  Each requires a different set of gear, and there are alot of places where milspec armor and a riot shield will result in a swat team.

Spells, drugs, other trolls are all good ways to handle the tank as well.

Also, as BP above points out, while the tank can effectively ignore the punk with the light pistol, a trained team with assault rifles with good recoil gear, good ammo, good skills, long, narrow burst, and maybe a called shot to increase DV will still screw up a tank just fine.  Well trained security knows you frag the mage, then the troll, in that order.  High end security might include a mage, a squad of cyber modified riflemen, and a couple of drones with light machine guns as fire support.  Against that kind of firepower even the tanks go down if they try to take it on the chin.

[baronspam]

Space: the final frontier. where no one can hear you scream, the mage is twitching from no astral connection, the hacker is giggling from all the Wifi in the air, and the razorboy is crying cuz all they let him bring were the ares squirt and a normal knife.

the perfect location to run my players through a one-shot based on the movie pandorum. "orbital facility" (i swear it's really not a colony ship) experimenting on surge changelings, no magic seems to work, and no monster stomping weapons. and, GO!

Caution flag: a run in which the mage can't use magic 'just because' is going to be very little fun for the mage player.  Think long and hard about this.

[Zilfer]

On the subject of the Troll (and speaking as a very raw GM with 4 sessions total, 2 of Shadowrun under my belt, so same boat as you) - the Mage is good, the 'Is that armour legal' is good...

So too is the option called 'More Bullets'. In Shadowrun, people are frail and bullets are fairly cheap. Yes, the Troll is about as un-frail as it gets, and can ignore the poxy gangers with their poxy light pistols who his friends are worried about. But when the highly skilled CorpSec/Lone Star/Street Sam/Adept/whatever levels their machine gun at them and lets fly with a full narrow burst of Armour Piercing/Explosive ammo, the Troll has serious problems. He will probably survive that, which most of his friends won't if they get hit. He might even survive a second burst, although that's beginning to be a risky bet. A third would almost definitley do for him. A big enough gun - and it doesn't even have to be that big - will hurt him. No matter how tough a Shadowrunner is, the moment heavy fire comes down their best options are 'Get them before they can get you' and 'Run away'. Probably not in that order. The tank's favourite option 'tough it out', is a long way down the list.

The above is all good advice on how to handle "the tank.".  Full blown combat armor (and especially the shield) are only going to work in full combat situations where you don't care what anyone thinks of you.  Some jobs require subtly, legwork, and blending in, and the troll will have to downshift to less crazy armor.  A showdowrunner should be able to dress for success in any situation, be it a fancy club, a corporate board room, a bar at the edge of the barrens, or a den full of ghouls.  Each requires a different set of gear, and there are alot of places where milspec armor and a riot shield will result in a swat team.

Spells, drugs, other trolls are all good ways to handle the tank as well.

Also, as BP above points out, while the tank can effectively ignore the punk with the light pistol, a trained team with assault rifles with good recoil gear, good ammo, good skills, long, narrow burst, and maybe a called shot to increase DV will still screw up a tank just fine.  Well trained security knows you frag the mage, then the troll, in that order.  High end security might include a mage, a squad of cyber modified riflemen, and a couple of drones with light machine guns as fire support.  Against that kind of firepower even the tanks go down if they try to take it on the chin.

Frag the mage eh? Well then I guess i'll have to be careful when i play my mage then. XD Not that I don't already know that. Had a question however, for lightning ball. How do you calculate the damage? It seems to be different than say a fireball which i believe is half impact + full body resistance test. Can you "dodge spells?"