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Shadowrun 5 Errata

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Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #405 on: <10-13-16/1835:41> »
Yeah, cyberlimbs are definitely going to get a lot of discussion time.
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« Reply #406 on: <10-14-16/0053:24> »
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I'd like to see your list of troll characters with dwarf cyberlimbs, or vice versa.
Hmm... a dwarf with cyber-troll-arms...  8)

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #407 on: <10-14-16/0104:55> »
On the Matrix, can we get clarification if a host's WAN is suppose to consume icons slaved to it, or if icons slaved to a host are visible on the open grids but defend with the host's stats.

RAW is clearly that icons of slaves exist in the Host only, which is logically consistent with there only being 1 icon per device. However all other master/slave relationships do allow hacking the slave while the slave defends with the masters stats. Which is also logically consistent, but not compatible with the idea that a slaves Icon exists inside a host only.

However the problem is that if an icon is in a host, there is no rules to explain how you can spot a device that is inside a host, which would mean a camera slaved to a host is invisible on the open Matrix, which can be problematic as a facility may have multiple hosts, and it might not be clear on which host that camera is inside. If there was something like being able to follow the literal data trail to see which host is the master, would be kind of nice. Other wise, its just kind of hand wavy. Though, I realize that the high level of abstraction that is the Matrix pretty much requires a lot of hand waving.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #408 on: <10-14-16/0249:06> »
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Why wold a Str 5 / Agi 5 arm cost different amounts for different people? It is the same equipment
Is it, though? In-setting, cyber limbs obviously differ between metatypes. If you doubt that, then I'd like to see your list of troll characters with dwarf cyberlimbs, or vice versa.

Sure, the outside could look different, but statistically they would be the same, wouldn't they? Unless you're trying to say that a Dwarf with 5 Strength and a Human with 5 Strength somehow function in some fundamentally different way... The whole point of the metatype adjustments being part of Lifestyles is so that it doesn't have to be factored into gear costs. I may not agree with it entirely, but that's the way they have it.

As for the cyberlimbs specifically, if we use my motors and gyros analogy from before: We'll say for each 1 pt of Str, that counts as being able to put out say 100 psi, and 1 pt of Agi is being able to move 100 cm/sec. (These are pretty much arbitrary numbers, so don't worry about it making sense the  whole way through). So if we have 3/3, that's 300 psi and 300 cm/sec. And if we have 5/5 that's 500 each.

So the mechanisms of the cyberarm have to meet those "criteria" to qualify as that level of attribute, and getting a cyberarm to do that would cost a certain amount. Are we going to say that it costs less to make an Arm with 5 Strength for an Ork than it does to make a 5 Str arm for a Human? Remember that cybearms are completely robotic, they don't depend on the base structure.

Well part of what you are paying for is just the customization (or at least that should be part of the cost) so having more than one base limb to choose from that have different base attributes should be a standard thing.  Otherwise they should be having just one base gun, one base deck, one base car, etc. and make the customer pay to customize it from there.  Instead we get lots of base models and still get to customize all that stuff to a greater or lesser extent.  That's my two cents. 

Chrome Flesh added something sort of like that when they added Cyberlimb Optimization. Other than that, Cyberlimbs' only attributes are the Strength/Agility, and they are fundamentally supposed to be modified, so I don't think it is a good comparison to say that "having only one cyberlimb is like saying there is only 1 gun and everything is just customization"

But on that thought, I did think of a sort of compromise. Have a short listing of "customization bundles" for cyberlimbs, like:

NameAvailCost
+Slim (+2 Agi, -1 Str)+1+5000
+Hefty (+2 Str, -1 Agi)+1+5000
+Troll* (+2 Str)+1+7500
*Only available to Trolls

Slim/Hefty isn't actually a discount, it's just balancing out +2 to one attribute with -1 to the other at the cost of one attribute increase. Slim could be "for elves" and Hefty could be "for Ork/Dwarf/Troll"
Troll gives them a slight discount, but I don't think a complete removal of the "cyberlimb attribute tax" is in order here.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #409 on: <10-14-16/0300:02> »
Yeah, cyberlimbs are definitely going to get a lot of discussion time.

Since we are at the topic, I'd like to enter this radical proposal:

Do away with Enhancement and only use Augmentation
Every cyberlimb has to be fitted to the owner, so AGI and STR are automatically that of your natural body. Augmentations are now allowed to go up to 4 instead of 3, setting it in sync with the rest of the rules.

In one swoop you get rid of the Limit discussion, metatype discrimination and drastically reduce the occurrence of one arm wonders.

If you train and increase one of your stats the limb adjusts its settings so you are in synch with your body again.
talk think matrix

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Welf

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« Reply #410 on: <10-14-16/0506:07> »
Yeah, cyberlimbs are definitely going to get a lot of discussion time.

Since we are at the topic, I'd like to enter this radical proposal:

Do away with Enhancement and only use Augmentation
Every cyberlimb has to be fitted to the owner, so AGI and STR are automatically that of your natural body. Augmentations are now allowed to go up to 4 instead of 3, setting it in sync with the rest of the rules.

In one swoop you get rid of the Limit discussion, metatype discrimination and drastically reduce the occurrence of one arm wonders.

If you train and increase one of your stats the limb adjusts its settings so you are in synch with your body again.
Your Limit could still be different for your cyberarm if it "only" gives +3 on stats. Which would mean some one arm wonder would still be possible, right?

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #411 on: <10-14-16/0602:03> »
Augs can either count as 1/4*Rating into the limit calculation. AGI Aug for speed would only count if both legs have the same aug (if one leg is faster than the other you start to run in circles  ;D )
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #412 on: <10-14-16/1012:21> »
OH, can we get clarification on stealth on the astral, and just how much quickened spell, sustained spells, etc "glow" on the astral?  (i.e. the magnitude)  The ability notice astral phenomena (spirits) and spell casting from the physical is delineated.  But on the astral it just says they "glow".  But y'know, watch dials glow.  Lamp post glow.  These are very different levels. 

jim1701

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« Reply #413 on: <10-14-16/1304:02> »
Well part of what you are paying for is just the customization (or at least that should be part of the cost) so having more than one base limb to choose from that have different base attributes should be a standard thing.  Otherwise they should be having just one base gun, one base deck, one base car, etc. and make the customer pay to customize it from there.  Instead we get lots of base models and still get to customize all that stuff to a greater or lesser extent.  That's my two cents. 

Chrome Flesh added something sort of like that when they added Cyberlimb Optimization. Other than that, Cyberlimbs' only attributes are the Strength/Agility, and they are fundamentally supposed to be modified, so I don't think it is a good comparison to say that "having only one cyberlimb is like saying there is only 1 gun and everything is just customization"

But on that thought, I did think of a sort of compromise. Have a short listing of "customization bundles" for cyberlimbs, like:

NameAvailCost
+Slim (+2 Agi, -1 Str)+1+5000
+Hefty (+2 Str, -1 Agi)+1+5000
+Troll* (+2 Str)+1+7500
*Only available to Trolls

Slim/Hefty isn't actually a discount, it's just balancing out +2 to one attribute with -1 to the other at the cost of one attribute increase. Slim could be "for elves" and Hefty could be "for Ork/Dwarf/Troll"
Troll gives them a slight discount, but I don't think a complete removal of the "cyberlimb attribute tax" is in order here.

Well, we'll have to disagree then.  In all the world of Shadowrun with all the mega corps they only build one base cyberlimb?  That's hilarious IMHO.

The optimized limbs in Chrome Flesh are like getting to pick between a Predator IV and a Predator V.   

Metatypes should have their own base arms.  What their base stats should be can be up for debate but I do think that ideally the character's actual natural strength and agility should factor into what the base stats should be.  The chart is a step in the right direction except for the availability modifiers. 

And on another topic I would like to see something more rational done with cyber limb armor.  Four cyber limbs with +3 armor shouldn't be four times as effective as level 3 dermal plating or level three orthoskin or titanium bone lacing.  Especially given that it stacks with all three despite the fact you are removing bone and skin to install them.  Not a deal breaker for me by any means but I'd prefer something that made more sense.  Making all "built in" armor non-stackable would be the simplest route.

ShadowMaster

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« Reply #414 on: <10-29-16/0135:17> »
On page 299 under Learning Spells it says there are spell formulas for rituals, but there is no cost listed on the magical goods table on page 326 for ritual spell formulas.

ShadowMaster

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« Reply #415 on: <10-29-16/0207:59> »
There are rules on how a character can make formula for a focus but there is no set of rules for how a character can make a spell formula for spells, rituals or preparations.

Strill

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« Reply #416 on: <11-04-16/2251:39> »
The Focus Addiction rules on page 414 are incoherent as written. With enough active foci it's possible to have an addiction rating of 12, which means you start counting down to an addiction test if you use foci at least once during a -1 week period. What does "-1 weeks" even mean?

Furthermore, what happens if you activate 9 force of foci one week, and 8 force of foci the next? Do you track them separately?

Finally, there's the fact that if your magic is 8, you can have 8 force of foci activated without risking addiction, but the moment you activate one extra foci, you make addiction tests with almost the same difficulty as Kamikaze. You go from no risk to a huge risk abruptly with no middle-ground.

The way I fix this is by making the Addiction Rating for foci = Total force of all active foci - Magic. However, it's worth noting that this has the side-effect of allowing mages to use more foci than the current system.
« Last Edit: <11-04-16/2339:09> by Strill »

Strill

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« Reply #417 on: <11-04-16/2326:27> »
RAW, the Engulf ability (p. 396) seems to stack with the Energy Aura (p. 396) ability, allowing Spirits to deal [Force x6] damage with a single melee attack. I think this is a bit overpowered when compared to Powers like Elemental Attack, Venom, or Natural Weapon which deal only [Force x2] or [Force x3].

So a Force 6 spirit can deal 36 fire damage with -6 AP in a single attack using Engulf.

To deal Force x6 damage, a Fire Spirit uses Engulf (p.396) to deal [Force x2] damage with -[Force] AP. Because this is a melee attack, Energy Aura (p. 396) activates, increasing the damage by [Force]. Once the target's turn comes up again, Engulf deals this damage again at the start of their turn.
« Last Edit: <11-05-16/0142:23> by Strill »

Strill

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« Reply #418 on: <11-26-16/1055:15> »
Beast Spirits have Noxious Breath, but don't have the Exotic Ranged Weapon skill they need to use it.

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #419 on: <11-28-16/1611:50> »
Beast Spirits have Noxious Breath, but don't have the Exotic Ranged Weapon skill they need to use it.

Honestly feel the skill should just come with the power for spirits. Comes up when designing ally spirits a lot.