[Ryo]

I play a Mystic Adept in an online game and basically serve as my team's combat mage. However, I don't have the Astral Perception adept power, so I was actually curious how well my Mystic would do against full Magicians.

Is an astrally projecting Magician visible in the physical world at all? A ghostly image, or something? I've got the Mana spells necessary to hurt people in Astral space, but I can't find anything in the book about whether or not I can actually 'see' the buggers to get LOS.

[Chaemera]

If they manifest, you can see them. However, you only see a "reflection" of them, you don't see them, they are still on the Astral Plane (SR4A, pg. 193, Manifesting). Since you are not perceiving the Astral Plane, you still can't target them. You have to share an actual plane of existence (SR4A, pg. 183, Step 3, third paragraph).

[Glyph]

Astral mages are only visible on the physical plane if they are manifesting, which also makes them vulnerable to mana attacks.  Otherwise, you need to be astrally perceiving in order to affect them.

[Ryo]

Well that sucks. Good to know that the GM just needs an Astrally Projecting Magician with Manabolt to hose the entire party. Makes taking Mystic Adept over Magician seem less worth it, since you have to spend an entire magic point just on Astral Perception.

[Chaemera]

Well that sucks. Good to know that the GM just needs an Astrally Projecting Magician with Manabolt to hose the entire party. Makes taking Mystic Adept over Magician seem less worth it, since you have to spend an entire magic point just on Astral Perception.

Astrally projecting mages can only target astral forms. You cannot manabolt an aura. See the references I made in my previous post.

Astral projecting can only target astral targets, Physical can only target physical target, Astral perceiving can target valid astral or physical targets.

Therefore, an Astral mage which manifests is not subject to attack by a physically present mage, even with a mana spell. Likewise, an Astrally projecting mage cannot attack the astrally inactive street samurai.

[Ryo]

Well that sucks. Good to know that the GM just needs an Astrally Projecting Magician with Manabolt to hose the entire party. Makes taking Mystic Adept over Magician seem less worth it, since you have to spend an entire magic point just on Astral Perception.

Astrally projecting mages can only target astral forms. You cannot manabolt an aura. See the references I made in my previous post.

Astral projecting can only target astral targets, Physical can only target physical target, Astral perceiving can target valid astral or physical targets.

Therefore, an Astral mage which manifests is not subject to attack by a physically present mage, even with a mana spell. Likewise, an Astrally projecting mage cannot attack the astrally inactive street samurai.

Aha. Okay, that's a lot better.

[Fizzygoo]

That astrally projecting Mage will have to manifest (become visible to you/targetable by you) in order to cast spells on you since you aren't perceiving/projecting yourself. SR4A pg 183 "Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form(though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted [by spellcasting]).

Even this is debatable as I cannot find RAW that states anything like "a manifesting mage can cast mana spells on non-astral/physical persons, but is also targetable by mana spells from physical persons" only SR4A pg 193, "If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest." and "manifesting does not create a physical form, and so the character cannot physically interact with anything, nor can can she be harmed by physical attacks." It does not explicitly say can cast mana spells on physical beings nor physical beings can cast mana spells on them, but in somewhat implies it.

Regardless...it will work both ways. If the GM allows the manifesting mage to target physical beings with mana spells then the manifesting mage is subject to physically cast mana spells OR neither works.

Though in my late reply I would prefer to go with Chaemera's ruling.

[Chaemera]

I think that's your answer, Fizzygoo, right in your quotes.

To wit, "manifesting does not create a physical form".

And, going back to spell casting, "a magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world". No physical form, you're not in the physical world. So a physical mage (non-astrally active) cannot target a manifested mage, by my reading.

Further, "A magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form". Given that a manifesting mage has no physical form, and no mention of becoming dual-natured while manifesting is made, a manifesting mage is still only in astral space. He can now be seen / heard, but only as a ghostly image that can talk with them.

[Fizzygoo]

Yeah, I'm totally in agreement with you.

If one were to rule the other way then a mage (PC or NPC) could manifest within LOS but far away behind cover and rain death upon the targets (NPCs or PCs). Mages would corner the market on wetworks. Unbalancing to game play to say the least.

The "manifesting does not create a physical form" quote is what cements it. Though I would love a RAW table such as:

Caster is	Target is	Mana Spells	Physical Spells
Astral Projecting*	Astral Projecting*	Yes	No
Astral Projecting*	Astral Perceiving	Yes	No
Astral Projecting*	Physical	No	No
Astral Perceiving	Astral Projecting*	Yes	No
Astral Perceiving	Astral Perceiving	Yes	Yes
Astral Perceiving	Physical	Yes	Yes
Physical	Astral Projecting*	No	No
Physical	Astral Perceiving	Yes	Yes
Physical	Physical	Yes
Yes
*Whether manifesting or not

---I think I got those right, heh.

[Glyph]

I'm not sure if SR4A changed it, but in my book, under manifesting, it says "Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane."  So no, a manifesting mage can't manabolt you, but you can manabolt a manifesting mage - again, assuming SR4A didn't change it.  It kind of makes sense - manifesting is described as the opposite of astral perception, extending your senses into the physical plane, so I can see how that could make a manifesting mage vulnerable.

[Chaemera]

Fizzygoo, yup, your table looks right, other than spacing of that last "yes".

Glyph, just looked over my copy of SR4 (Fifth Printing) and didn't see what you're talking about under the Manifesting header or the spellcasting header, what version do you have? And, for that matter, page # would be nice, make it easier for me to dig up, since I might just be not finding it. Nit-picks are all over the place in SR4.

[Mäx]

I'm not sure if SR4A changed it, but in my book, under manifesting, it says "Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane."  So no, a manifesting mage can't manabolt you, but you can manabolt a manifesting mage - again, assuming SR4A didn't change it.

Nope SR4A didn't change that section, the following is from the last SR4 errata
"p. 184 Manifesting [4]
Change the second line to read:
“Manifesting is a psychic e ect that allows an astral form
to make itself visible and audible on the physical plane through
an act of will.”
Remove the second-to-last line (the one beginning with
“Manifesting characters and spirits, however ”)"

Can't tell you witch version they changed it as i don't have acceses to older erratas then that one(witch is available from the catalysts SR page)

[DjinnOTheWest]

On a related note, what about dual natured things (like a drake for example)? Are they targetable and can target things both ways?

[Qemuel]

They are certainly targetable, as is a mage astrally perceiving from what I understand.  Sorry don't have the book in front of me to verify with a page #, but from what I recall, that is one of the dangers of being dual or a physical mage astrally perceiving (effectively dual).

[Glyph]

Dual-natured is worse, though, because you can't turn it off.